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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe you ll find in his many references to the history of thinking and philosophy that about
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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      jackfreed@... writes:
      Starman:
      But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source of
      the positive contributions of math, science, and rational thinking
      that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
      Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism.  The al-quada stream is a
      divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
      merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems necessary
      for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
      between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
      Kenneth



      ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe you'll find in his many references to the history of thinking and philosophy that about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic" shadow-image of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it, appeared an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek philosophy was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake the whole world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only preserved in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner says that during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian thought was given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-Christian powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas appeared just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle materialistic bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting of Greek thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical place with fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go to heaven, or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic scholar could enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)

          So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed along Greek thinking. In its heyday
      of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it contributed to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an Ahrimanic attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science" of the present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived then became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to world thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600 years. There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind forward could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but then things degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece would be to a present-day Aristotle.

          Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress after its one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in war. Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go through something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both Judaism and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary for men's minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of how good the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the British and then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It appears to be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one heading back into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings in the present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping it die out as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in the Dust Bin of History.

         BTW,  as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough arguments, a Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that Mohammed just borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through Arabia, and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a vehicle for his tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very skeptical about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion flatly false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded that it was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no real spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an enlightened Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion only here in America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions, although we are nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people as enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate our Salman Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that wants to practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
      -starman



      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
      > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly * define
      the implicit
      > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
      portion of
      > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness he
      builds to
      > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
      connection â€"
      > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend a
      single lecture
      > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at the 
      conclusion ?
      > >
      > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post here,
      talking
      > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
      prepared to have
      > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear about
      this
      > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone here
      seems to
      > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not demonic
      Dark Age
      > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
      holocausts. But
      > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
      > > -starman
      >
      > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
      > > September 1924 / Switzerland
      > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
      > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the Father
      > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically)
      â€"
      > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
      > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
      > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and can
      > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
      > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
      > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
      > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
      > > polarity to Christianity.
      > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
      > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the
      will
      > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
      > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
      > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
      > > Father God alone.
      > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
      > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
      > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
      > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
      > > the Father (alone).
      > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
      > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
      > > conceive the Father God.
      > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
      > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
      > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary
      and
      > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
      > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
      > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
      > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
      > > from purely material causes.
      > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
      with
      > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
      > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
      > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
      > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
      > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
      > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to the lures
      > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
      > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender all inward
      > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
      with
      > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
      > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
      (future)
      > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
      > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises
      that
      > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first
      of
      > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
      > > will and action.
      > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
      > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
      > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
      > > sun-intelligence.
      > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
      > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
      > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
      > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
      > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
      > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
      > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
      > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and its
      > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow from
      the
      > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
      > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
      > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding
      of
      > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if
      this
      > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the Father
      principle
      > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
      > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
      > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
      > > such as transubstantiation.
      > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
      > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
      > > of the number 666….)
      > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
      > > actively at work within the external process of outward events;
      he
      > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
      > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
      > > 1998 A.D.
      > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come
      when
      > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
      > > waves of history.
      > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
      > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
      > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
      > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
      > > whom many are "possessed."
      > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
      > > believe that they are really human beings.
      > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
      > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff
      at
      > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
      > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
      > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
      > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
      > > emotions.
      > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
      > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
      > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
      > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
      adversary
      > > over against the spiritual.
      > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
      > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to
      what
      > > is to come.
      > > - - - - - - - - - -



      http://www.DrStarman.net
    • Bradford Riley
      From: DRStarman2001@aol.com ... Bradford Riley comments; Okay, this flaming lecture at the Goetheanum happened well before 9/11! Inflaming the fears in
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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        From: DRStarman2001@...
        >Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
        >Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:11:06 EDT

        Bradford Riley comments;

        Okay, this flaming lecture at the Goetheanum happened well before 9/11!
        Inflaming the fears in Anthros, who I have worked with and I know many of us
        have, is like lighting a fire in a barn with a bunch of horses. The problem
        is that looking for a Sorath Initiate is like being able to face Hannibal
        Lechtar and offer him girl scout cookies. Most souls we encounter are
        massively ill informed about history, Sorath, Lucifer or Ahriman. Anthros,
        many of them, act as if it is merely the Grinch who stole Christimas.

        I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail
        whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal Cross
        burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what Starman
        has just brought in regards to Islamic history. Amongst the maniacs, the
        view he expressed is far more balanced.

        I have a few stronger feeling about the Mormons but as far as Islamic Karma
        and Mormons are concerned they are in the same damn boat. Mormons can have
        their harems and so can Sheiks. As far as coming in close to the forces that
        have brought the Christ event into shattering dimensions on Earth...
        Christians, Islams and Mormons are merely a bunch of wild unruly baby's
        crying for their momma's. For Anthros not to see and discern the
        inflammatory nature of mis-delivering Steiner insights, is like having happy
        tea with the Waldorf Critcs group and PLANS. Most of us need to try a little
        discernment on this flaming issue that has little or nothing to do with
        facts, except that certain forces, because we have so failed at doing things
        right, end up as stupid wars where the motives are as stupid as the
        unconscious wisdom and impulses may actually be wise. Thanks Starman.

        Starman wrote;

        So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed along Greek
        >thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it contributed
        >to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an Ahrimanic
        >attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science" of the
        >present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived then
        >became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to world
        >thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600 years.
        >There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind forward
        >could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but then
        >things
        >degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece would be to
        >a
        >present-day Aristotle.
        >




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      • jackstrange11
        Starman, Thanks for the well thought-out reply. I think that Arabism s materialistic spin on Aristotle was a necessary part of the evolution of consciousness.
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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          Starman,
          Thanks for the well thought-out reply.
          I think that Arabism's materialistic spin on Aristotle was a
          necessary part of the evolution of consciousness. This was the point
          where humans began to perceive the pure ideas of the spiritual world
          as a creation of their own thinking rather than the creations of
          higher beings acting through human consciousness. It enabled us to
          take hold of thinking and exercise our will in that complex web of
          creation, but at the same time it started us down the road away from
          recognition of spirit. So we must resist the danger, but at the same
          time incorporate the life giving elements of that way of thinking. So
          Aquinas can be seen as incorporating the Arabic sphere into Christian
          perception embracing it positively as well as giving it a well needed
          course correction.
          The Islamic thought that my mind sees is reflected in the great
          architecture of southern Spain and the mid-east which consists of
          complex webs of motives with organically integrated ornamentation.
          I believe that this stream combined with Christianity in the music of
          JS Bach, where the deepest Christian mysticism is expressed with
          complex counterpoint. Fugue, canon, and other forms of counterpoint
          are very Islamic in the numerical relations and mathematical
          exactitude and the interweaving of webs of motives. A comparison
          between plain chant and Bach's Bmin Mass indicates how the Arabic
          influence can help us attain the highest spiritual ends. I'm not
          saying that Arabs necessarily invented Baroque counterpoint, but that
          they created the thought form archetypes that the inventers
          subsequently used. This same type of thought is the basis of the
          hyper linking of information on the WWWeb which may or may not be an
          example of its negative potential.

          I agree that the Arab world passed on Greek thought, but I think we
          must emphasize the transformations of that thought and seek to
          visualize what it was. We cannot return to the Dark Ages but we must
          extract the gold that is there before discarding what is left over in
          the dust bin.

          Kenneth

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > jackfreed@m... writes:
          > > Starman:
          > > But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source
          of
          > > the positive contributions of math, science, and rational
          thinking
          > > that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
          > > Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism. The al-quada stream
          is a
          > > divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
          > > merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems
          necessary
          > > for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
          > > between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
          > > Kenneth
          >
          >
          > ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe
          you'll
          > find in his many references to the history of thinking and
          philosophy that
          > about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic"
          shadow-image
          > of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it,
          appeared
          > an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek
          philosophy
          > was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake
          the whole
          > world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only
          preserved
          > in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner
          says that
          > during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian
          thought was
          > given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-
          Christian
          > powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas
          appeared
          > just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle
          materialistic
          > bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting
          of Greek
          > thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic
          > fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical
          place with
          > fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go
          to heaven,
          > or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic
          scholar could
          > enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)
          >
          > So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed
          along Greek
          > thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it
          contributed
          > to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an
          Ahrimanic
          > attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science"
          of the
          > present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived
          then
          > became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to
          world
          > thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600
          years.
          > There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind
          forward
          > could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but
          then things
          > degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece
          would be to a
          > present-day Aristotle.
          >
          > Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress
          after its
          > one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in
          war.
          > Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go
          through
          > something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both
          Judaism
          > and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary
          for men's
          > minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of
          how good
          > the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the
          British and
          > then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It
          appears to
          > be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one
          heading back
          > into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings
          in the
          > present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping
          it die out
          > as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in
          the Dust
          > Bin of History.
          >
          > BTW, as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough
          arguments, a
          > Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that
          Mohammed just
          > borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through
          Arabia,
          > and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a
          vehicle for his
          > tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very
          skeptical
          > about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about
          Joseph
          > Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion
          flatly
          > false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded
          that it
          > was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no
          real
          > spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an
          enlightened
          > Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion
          only here in
          > America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the
          > Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions,
          although we are
          > nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people
          as
          > enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate
          our Salman
          > Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that
          wants to
          > practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
          > -starman
          >
          >
          > > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > > > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
          > > > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly *
          define
          > > the implicit
          > > > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
          > > portion of
          > > > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness
          he
          > > builds to
          > > > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
          > > connection â€"
          > > > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend
          a
          > > single lecture
          > > > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at
          the
          > > conclusion ?
          > > > >
          > > > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post
          here,
          > > talking
          > > > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
          > > prepared to have
          > > > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear
          about
          > > this
          > > > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone
          here
          > > seems to
          > > > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not
          demonic
          > > Dark Age
          > > > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
          > > holocausts. But
          > > > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
          > > > > -starman
          > > >
          > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
          > > > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
          > > > > September 1924 / Switzerland
          > > > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
          > > > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the
          Father
          > > > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and
          physically)
          > > â€"
          > > > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
          > > > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
          > > > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and
          can
          > > > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
          > > > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah,
          and
          > > > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
          > > > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
          > > > > polarity to Christianity.
          > > > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
          > > > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever,
          the
          > > will
          > > > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social
          order
          > > > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing
          else
          > > > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
          > > > > Father God alone.
          > > > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
          > > > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
          > > > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
          > > > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine
          of
          > > > > the Father (alone).
          > > > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his
          own
          > > > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able
          to
          > > > > conceive the Father God.
          > > > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
          > > > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection
          from
          > > > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are
          illusionary
          > > and
          > > > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
          > > > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone)
          inescapably
          > > > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
          > > > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
          > > > > from purely material causes.
          > > > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
          > > with
          > > > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is
          reflected /
          > > > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
          > > > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
          > > > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
          > > > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
          > > > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to
          the lures
          > > > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
          > > > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender
          all inward
          > > > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
          > > with
          > > > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
          > > > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
          > > (future)
          > > > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
          > > > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything
          arises
          > > that
          > > > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature,
          first
          > > of
          > > > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses
          of
          > > > > will and action.
          > > > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
          > > > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
          > > > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
          > > > > sun-intelligence.
          > > > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the
          representatives
          > > > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
          > > > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
          > > > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
          > > > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order
          to
          > > > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
          > > > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
          > > > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and
          its
          > > > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow
          from
          > > the
          > > > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
          > > > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism
          was
          > > > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian
          understanding
          > > of
          > > > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as
          if
          > > this
          > > > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the
          Father
          > > principle
          > > > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces
          indeed
          > > > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
          > > > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a
          sacrament
          > > > > such as transubstantiation.
          > > > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result
          of
          > > > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
          > > > > of the number 666….)
          > > > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden
          but
          > > > > actively at work within the external process of outward
          events;
          > > he
          > > > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
          > > > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number
          666:
          > > > > 1998 A.D.
          > > > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will
          come
          > > when
          > > > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
          > > > > waves of history.
          > > > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run
          before
          > > > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
          > > > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
          > > > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
          > > > > whom many are "possessed."
          > > > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
          > > > > believe that they are really human beings.
          > > > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by
          their
          > > > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only
          scoff
          > > at
          > > > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
          > > > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
          > > > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions,
          with
          > > > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in
          their
          > > > > emotions.
          > > > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
          > > > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
          > > > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and
          the
          > > > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
          > > adversary
          > > > > over against the spiritual.
          > > > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
          > > > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in
          contrast to
          > > what
          > > > > is to come.
          > > > > - - - - - - - - - -
          > >
          >
          >
          > http://www.DrStarman.net
        • Br. Ron
          Brother Bradford sez: ...I for one, can t even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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            Brother Bradford sez:

            "...I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the
            Sorath
            e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal
            Cross
            burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what
            Starman has just brought in regards to Islamic history."

            I don't think 'flaming' is so much the issue (although it is hard to discuss
            Arabism without sensing the incredible potential for volatile combusition)

            I think it has more to do with understanding the mechanics of Islam as
            it relates to it's instruction book.....the Koran.

            History does provide a bit of a framework. But even if there were no
            documented references to the "Bloody Borders of Islam," this info is written
            indelibly in the Astral Light for anyone with even partially developed
            psychic sensibilities.

            Rudolph Steiner isn't the only credible source to suggest that Islam is a
            progenitor of antichrist (the sun demon... the 'qliphoth of Tiphareth')

            As I said before, unlike the Judeo/Christian scriptural mandates,
            the Koran offers absolutely no mechanism for change.....
            no 'Once and Future King' .. no Redeemer...no sprouting seed...
            no Oversoul offering continuous upgrades by way of etheric
            embedding and quickening.

            Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
            locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
            gotta give.

            I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
            It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
            our
            global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on it.


            Br. Ron
          • Bradford Riley
            From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is the
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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              From: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
              >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
              >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700

              Brother Ron brought;

              >Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
              >locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
              >gotta give.
              >
              >I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
              >It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
              >our
              >global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on
              >it.

              Bradford responds;

              Dear, beloved Grail brother;

              This is the way the world ends
              This is the way the world ends
              This is the way the world ends
              Not with a bang but a whimper.

              Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
              threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
              shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
              of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
              not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
              form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
              as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.

              Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
              allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
              trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
              anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.

              Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
              from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
              as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
              of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
              not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
              False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
              have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
              to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
              brothers and sisters and unites all religions.

              The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
              toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
              old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
              of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
              Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
              everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
              mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
              worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.

              Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
              vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
              disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
              clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
              War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
              infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
              from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
              Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
              issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
              to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
              be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
              regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.

              Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
              certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.

              We are the hollow men
              We are the stuffed men
              Leaning together
              Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
              Our dried voices, when
              We whisper together
              Are quiet and meaningless
              As wind in dry grass
              Or rats' feet over broken glass
              In our dry cellar

              Shape without form, shade without colour,
              Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

              Those who have crossed
              With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
              Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
              Violent souls, but only
              As the hollow men
              The stuffed men.

              Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
              In death's dream kingdom
              These do not appear:
              There, the eyes are
              Sunlight on a broken column
              There, is a tree swinging
              And voices are
              In the wind's singing
              More distant and more solemn
              Than a fading star.

              This is the dead land
              This is cactus land
              Here the stone images
              Are raised, here they receive
              The supplication of a dead man's hand
              Under the twinkle of a fading star.

              Is it like this
              In death's other kingdom
              Waking alone
              At the hour when we are
              Trembling with tenderness
              Lips that would kiss
              Form prayers to broken stone.

              The eyes are not here
              There are no eyes here
              In this valley of dying stars
              In this hollow valley
              This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

              In this last of meeting places
              We grope together
              And avoid speech
              Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

              Between the idea
              And the reality
              Between the motion
              And the act
              Falls the Shadow

              For Thine is the Kingdom

              Between the conception
              And the creation
              Between the emotion
              And the response
              Falls the Shadow

              Between the desire
              And the spasm
              Between the potency
              And the existence
              Between the essence
              And the descent
              Falls the Shadow
              For Thine is the Kingdom

              This is the way the world ends
              This is the way the world ends
              This is the way the world ends
              Not with a bang but a whimper.

              http://www.thedubyareport.com/chuckman3.html

              ****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
              grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
              threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
              might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of
              terror.

              Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
              tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
              relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
              acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
              Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
              Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.

              Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
              serious threat to no one but his own people.

              The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
              at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
              what is fit to print.

              But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
              There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
              Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
              superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
              is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
              observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
              kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
              to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
              their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
              poorly-conceived projects.

              The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
              Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
              political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
              post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
              than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
              evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
              from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.

              The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
              using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
              conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
              A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
              place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
              deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
              apologists at the State Department).

              The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
              something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
              the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
              of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
              using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
              Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.

              But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
              that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
              measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
              stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
              kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
              now!" A very popular sentiment in America.

              Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
              middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
              foot about what counts: its portfolio.

              It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
              happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
              correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
              a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
              of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
              let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
              sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.

              Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
              wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
              the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
              terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.

              Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
              ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
              Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
              this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
              conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "

              Bradford

              _________________________________________________________________
              Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
            • Br. Ron
              Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached the
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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                Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.
                I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while
                but since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is only
                right to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simply
                deleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhat
                cloistered subject matter. 
                 
                BR
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                Sir Bradford...
                Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
                You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
                could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')

                Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
                In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
                post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
                approach to her perceived enemies.

                Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
                (nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
                to seek to be understood as well as to understand)

                First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
                point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself who
                walk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way to
                perform at the Renaissance Faire.
                 
                But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.
                It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss it
                without diluting it's meaning.
                 
                It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole year
                because of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality in
                relation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one who
                has fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you can
                imagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my whole
                tribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one who
                perpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.
                 
                I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'
                and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the
                'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'
                because it often departs too severely from the fundamental
                heart of the melody.
                 
                In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophists
                in relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of the
                concert as it was written 2000 years ago,  at the Hub of Time..and timing.
                 
                Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitely
                complex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the Original
                Melody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues like
                Catholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everything
                backward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and am
                only now getting around to learning to read music :-)
                 
                As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different
                'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I was 
                becoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.
                I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Monday
                night and saving Bach until Tuesday.
                 
                Now to politics.
                 
                George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of his
                inarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handle
                on the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to back
                entrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poor
                the homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. The
                pendulum will swing back...it always does
                 
                What Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of
                'as above, so below.'  "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of a
                scoundrel." 
                Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize that
                a cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,
                eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which will
                expel it from the whole body.
                 
                The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the result
                of those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.
                 
                No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.
                 
                I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that we
                must be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be
                'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends all
                these things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.
                 
                But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align our
                molecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we must
                understand what the essence of Christianity is.
                 
                In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit of
                Cosmic Beauty.
                Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolution
                of the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.
                We nevertheless need the discordants. Without them
                the melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.
                 
                The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to the
                pruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans don
                our Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell of
                the crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.
                 
                This is what has made America so great. She has put her
                money where her mouth is and courageously entered the fray
                against those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatened
                the freedoms of the innocents.
                 
                The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissures
                in our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...
                Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.
                If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% into
                the deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in the
                first place.
                 
                "Be ye hot or be ye cold..."
                 
                When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as the
                leader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?
                Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is not
                the same as a mere bullying arrogance.
                 
                War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardly
                upon the screen of Creation.
                 
                I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel the
                need to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalist
                position.
                 
                By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuous
                torture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no more
                acceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarism
                against the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his black
                altar.
                 
                We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells which
                seek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinister
                temptation of mere appeasement.
                 
                This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagree
                about these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were right
                in our collective geo-political actions.
                 
                But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will in
                our movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.
                 
                As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behind
                taking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....
                but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be tolerated
                 
                Thanks for reading this, my creative friend.
                 
                 
                Br. Ron
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
              • elaineupton2001
                Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at the
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002
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                  Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,

                  You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
                  not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
                  Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
                  question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
                  Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
                  best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
                  I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
                  highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
                  praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
                  (biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
                  (Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
                  know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
                  translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
                  after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.

                  More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
                  the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be
                  correct.

                  Blessings,
                  elaine

                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
                  > Hello you all,
                  >
                  > I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
                  Archiati,
                  > quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
                  being invited
                  > by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
                  and 2001 at
                  > the "Religions of the world" session.
                  > In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
                  Goetheanum
                  > under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
                  to tie
                  > those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
                  Christ
                  > impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
                  years later
                  > as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
                  Muhammad
                  > Christ.
                  > Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
                  Muhammad , and the
                  > goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
                  > Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
                  thinks , the
                  > Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
                  Anthroposophy and
                  > Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
                  of giving
                  > it a seal of authenticity.
                  >
                  > Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Best regards
                  >
                  > Marc
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