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Re: [anthroposophy] RS on * today's * ISLAM

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... lightsearcher1@yahoo.com writes: In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly * define the implicit connection he is making here between the
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 4, 2002
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      lightsearcher1@... writes:
      In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly * define the implicit connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early portion of his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness he builds to and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the connection – and his intent – are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend a single lecture with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at the  conclusion ?

      *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post here, talking about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be prepared to have bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear about this materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone here seems to want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not demonic Dark Age religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming holocausts. But thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
      -starman


      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
      September 1924 / Switzerland
      From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
      realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
      (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
      and the realm of the SPIRIT.
      The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
      world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
      ONLY know – the Father.
      They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
      none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
      From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
      polarity to Christianity.
      Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
      worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
      to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
      that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
      is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
      Father God alone.
      A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
      feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
      this. The human being cannot become filled through and
      through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
      the Father (alone).
      Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
      humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
      conceive the Father God.
      In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
      Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
      the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
      vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
      Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
      arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
      example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
      from purely material causes.
      And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
      the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
      mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
      Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
      spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
      This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
      such a way that – if a human being were to succumb to the lures
      of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
      being would – by his own free choice – surrender all inward
      connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
      the sub-human spiritual realms.
      The apocalyptist saw this. – He felt and saw the mighty (future)
      counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
      It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
      brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
      all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
      will and action.
      And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
      looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
      work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
      sun-intelligence.
      If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
      of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
      dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
      Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
      the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
      impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
      The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
      counter-principle to Christianity – such as Arabism and its
      deterministic conceptual constructs – as direct outflow from the
      counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
      And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
      directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
      transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
      were the case but – by allotting validity only to the Father principle
      – to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
      intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
      for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
      such as transubstantiation.
      (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
      the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
      of the number 666….)
      During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
      actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
      was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
      Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
      1998 A.D.
      At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
      Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
      waves of history.
      Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
      Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
      Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
      through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
      whom many are "possessed."
      Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
      believe that they are really human beings.
      These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
      external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
      everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
      push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
      Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
      savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
      emotions.
      The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
      deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
      apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
      beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
      over against the spiritual.
      Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
      immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
      is to come.
      - - - - - - - - - -

    • brocartmarc@aol.com
      Hello you all, I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro Archiati, quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish being
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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        Hello you all,

        I have read some days ago a leaflet issued  seemingly by Pietro Archiati,  quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish being invited by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995 and 2001 at the "Religions of the world" session.
        In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at  the Verlag am Goetheanum under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries to tie those two streams  together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the Christ impulse  and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700 years later as the new bearer of the Christ impulse  could then be called Muhammad Christ.
        Abouleish's wiew implies  the Second Coming of Christ was Muhammad , and the goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
        Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he thinks ,  the Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of Anthroposophy and Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position  , instead of giving it a seal of authenticity.

        Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject  ?




        Best regards

        Marc
      • jackstrange11
        Starman: But isn t Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source of the positive contributions of math, science, and rational thinking that has
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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          Starman:
          But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source of
          the positive contributions of math, science, and rational thinking
          that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
          Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism. The al-quada stream is a
          divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
          merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems necessary
          for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
          between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??

          Kenneth
          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
          > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly * define
          the implicit
          > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
          portion of
          > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness he
          builds to
          > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
          connection â€"
          > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend a
          single lecture
          > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at the
          conclusion ?
          > >
          > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post here,
          talking
          > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
          prepared to have
          > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear about
          this
          > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone here
          seems to
          > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not demonic
          Dark Age
          > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
          holocausts. But
          > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
          > > -starman
          >
          > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
          > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
          > > September 1924 / Switzerland
          > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
          > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the Father
          > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically)
          â€"
          > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
          > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
          > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and can
          > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
          > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
          > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
          > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
          > > polarity to Christianity.
          > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
          > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the
          will
          > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
          > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
          > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
          > > Father God alone.
          > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
          > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
          > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
          > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
          > > the Father (alone).
          > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
          > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
          > > conceive the Father God.
          > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
          > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
          > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary
          and
          > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
          > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
          > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
          > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
          > > from purely material causes.
          > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
          with
          > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
          > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
          > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
          > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
          > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
          > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to the lures
          > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
          > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender all inward
          > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
          with
          > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
          > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
          (future)
          > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
          > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises
          that
          > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first
          of
          > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
          > > will and action.
          > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
          > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
          > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
          > > sun-intelligence.
          > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
          > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
          > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
          > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
          > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
          > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
          > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
          > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and its
          > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow from
          the
          > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
          > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
          > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding
          of
          > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if
          this
          > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the Father
          principle
          > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
          > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
          > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
          > > such as transubstantiation.
          > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
          > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
          > > of the number 666….)
          > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
          > > actively at work within the external process of outward events;
          he
          > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
          > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
          > > 1998 A.D.
          > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come
          when
          > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
          > > waves of history.
          > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
          > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
          > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
          > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
          > > whom many are "possessed."
          > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
          > > believe that they are really human beings.
          > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
          > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff
          at
          > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
          > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
          > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
          > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
          > > emotions.
          > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
          > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
          > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
          > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
          adversary
          > > over against the spiritual.
          > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
          > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to
          what
          > > is to come.
          > > - - - - - - - - - -
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe you ll find in his many references to the history of thinking and philosophy that about
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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            jackfreed@... writes:
            Starman:
            But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source of
            the positive contributions of math, science, and rational thinking
            that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
            Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism.  The al-quada stream is a
            divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
            merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems necessary
            for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
            between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
            Kenneth



            ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe you'll find in his many references to the history of thinking and philosophy that about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic" shadow-image of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it, appeared an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek philosophy was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake the whole world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only preserved in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner says that during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian thought was given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-Christian powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas appeared just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle materialistic bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting of Greek thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical place with fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go to heaven, or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic scholar could enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)

                So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed along Greek thinking. In its heyday
            of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it contributed to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an Ahrimanic attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science" of the present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived then became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to world thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600 years. There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind forward could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but then things degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece would be to a present-day Aristotle.

                Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress after its one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in war. Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go through something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both Judaism and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary for men's minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of how good the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the British and then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It appears to be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one heading back into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings in the present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping it die out as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in the Dust Bin of History.

               BTW,  as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough arguments, a Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that Mohammed just borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through Arabia, and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a vehicle for his tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very skeptical about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion flatly false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded that it was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no real spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an enlightened Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion only here in America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions, although we are nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people as enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate our Salman Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that wants to practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
            -starman



            --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
            > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
            > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly * define
            the implicit
            > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
            portion of
            > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness he
            builds to
            > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
            connection â€"
            > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend a
            single lecture
            > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at the 
            conclusion ?
            > >
            > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post here,
            talking
            > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
            prepared to have
            > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear about
            this
            > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone here
            seems to
            > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not demonic
            Dark Age
            > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
            holocausts. But
            > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
            > > -starman
            >
            > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
            > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
            > > September 1924 / Switzerland
            > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
            > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the Father
            > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically)
            â€"
            > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
            > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
            > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and can
            > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
            > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
            > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
            > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
            > > polarity to Christianity.
            > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
            > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the
            will
            > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
            > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
            > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
            > > Father God alone.
            > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
            > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
            > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
            > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
            > > the Father (alone).
            > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
            > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
            > > conceive the Father God.
            > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
            > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
            > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary
            and
            > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
            > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
            > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
            > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
            > > from purely material causes.
            > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
            with
            > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
            > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
            > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
            > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
            > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
            > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to the lures
            > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
            > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender all inward
            > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
            with
            > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
            > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
            (future)
            > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
            > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises
            that
            > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first
            of
            > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
            > > will and action.
            > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
            > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
            > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
            > > sun-intelligence.
            > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
            > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
            > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
            > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
            > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
            > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
            > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
            > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and its
            > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow from
            the
            > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
            > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
            > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding
            of
            > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if
            this
            > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the Father
            principle
            > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
            > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
            > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
            > > such as transubstantiation.
            > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
            > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
            > > of the number 666….)
            > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
            > > actively at work within the external process of outward events;
            he
            > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
            > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
            > > 1998 A.D.
            > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come
            when
            > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
            > > waves of history.
            > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
            > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
            > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
            > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
            > > whom many are "possessed."
            > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
            > > believe that they are really human beings.
            > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
            > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff
            at
            > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
            > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
            > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
            > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
            > > emotions.
            > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
            > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
            > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
            > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
            adversary
            > > over against the spiritual.
            > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
            > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to
            what
            > > is to come.
            > > - - - - - - - - - -



            http://www.DrStarman.net
          • Bradford Riley
            From: DRStarman2001@aol.com ... Bradford Riley comments; Okay, this flaming lecture at the Goetheanum happened well before 9/11! Inflaming the fears in
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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              From: DRStarman2001@...
              >Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
              >Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:11:06 EDT

              Bradford Riley comments;

              Okay, this flaming lecture at the Goetheanum happened well before 9/11!
              Inflaming the fears in Anthros, who I have worked with and I know many of us
              have, is like lighting a fire in a barn with a bunch of horses. The problem
              is that looking for a Sorath Initiate is like being able to face Hannibal
              Lechtar and offer him girl scout cookies. Most souls we encounter are
              massively ill informed about history, Sorath, Lucifer or Ahriman. Anthros,
              many of them, act as if it is merely the Grinch who stole Christimas.

              I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail
              whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal Cross
              burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what Starman
              has just brought in regards to Islamic history. Amongst the maniacs, the
              view he expressed is far more balanced.

              I have a few stronger feeling about the Mormons but as far as Islamic Karma
              and Mormons are concerned they are in the same damn boat. Mormons can have
              their harems and so can Sheiks. As far as coming in close to the forces that
              have brought the Christ event into shattering dimensions on Earth...
              Christians, Islams and Mormons are merely a bunch of wild unruly baby's
              crying for their momma's. For Anthros not to see and discern the
              inflammatory nature of mis-delivering Steiner insights, is like having happy
              tea with the Waldorf Critcs group and PLANS. Most of us need to try a little
              discernment on this flaming issue that has little or nothing to do with
              facts, except that certain forces, because we have so failed at doing things
              right, end up as stupid wars where the motives are as stupid as the
              unconscious wisdom and impulses may actually be wise. Thanks Starman.

              Starman wrote;

              So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed along Greek
              >thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it contributed
              >to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an Ahrimanic
              >attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science" of the
              >present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived then
              >became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to world
              >thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600 years.
              >There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind forward
              >could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but then
              >things
              >degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece would be to
              >a
              >present-day Aristotle.
              >




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            • jackstrange11
              Starman, Thanks for the well thought-out reply. I think that Arabism s materialistic spin on Aristotle was a necessary part of the evolution of consciousness.
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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                Starman,
                Thanks for the well thought-out reply.
                I think that Arabism's materialistic spin on Aristotle was a
                necessary part of the evolution of consciousness. This was the point
                where humans began to perceive the pure ideas of the spiritual world
                as a creation of their own thinking rather than the creations of
                higher beings acting through human consciousness. It enabled us to
                take hold of thinking and exercise our will in that complex web of
                creation, but at the same time it started us down the road away from
                recognition of spirit. So we must resist the danger, but at the same
                time incorporate the life giving elements of that way of thinking. So
                Aquinas can be seen as incorporating the Arabic sphere into Christian
                perception embracing it positively as well as giving it a well needed
                course correction.
                The Islamic thought that my mind sees is reflected in the great
                architecture of southern Spain and the mid-east which consists of
                complex webs of motives with organically integrated ornamentation.
                I believe that this stream combined with Christianity in the music of
                JS Bach, where the deepest Christian mysticism is expressed with
                complex counterpoint. Fugue, canon, and other forms of counterpoint
                are very Islamic in the numerical relations and mathematical
                exactitude and the interweaving of webs of motives. A comparison
                between plain chant and Bach's Bmin Mass indicates how the Arabic
                influence can help us attain the highest spiritual ends. I'm not
                saying that Arabs necessarily invented Baroque counterpoint, but that
                they created the thought form archetypes that the inventers
                subsequently used. This same type of thought is the basis of the
                hyper linking of information on the WWWeb which may or may not be an
                example of its negative potential.

                I agree that the Arab world passed on Greek thought, but I think we
                must emphasize the transformations of that thought and seek to
                visualize what it was. We cannot return to the Dark Ages but we must
                extract the gold that is there before discarding what is left over in
                the dust bin.

                Kenneth

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                > jackfreed@m... writes:
                > > Starman:
                > > But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source
                of
                > > the positive contributions of math, science, and rational
                thinking
                > > that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
                > > Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism. The al-quada stream
                is a
                > > divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
                > > merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems
                necessary
                > > for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
                > > between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
                > > Kenneth
                >
                >
                > ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe
                you'll
                > find in his many references to the history of thinking and
                philosophy that
                > about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic"
                shadow-image
                > of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it,
                appeared
                > an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek
                philosophy
                > was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake
                the whole
                > world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only
                preserved
                > in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner
                says that
                > during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian
                thought was
                > given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-
                Christian
                > powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas
                appeared
                > just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle
                materialistic
                > bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting
                of Greek
                > thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic
                > fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical
                place with
                > fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go
                to heaven,
                > or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic
                scholar could
                > enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)
                >
                > So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed
                along Greek
                > thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it
                contributed
                > to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an
                Ahrimanic
                > attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science"
                of the
                > present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived
                then
                > became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to
                world
                > thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600
                years.
                > There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind
                forward
                > could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but
                then things
                > degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece
                would be to a
                > present-day Aristotle.
                >
                > Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress
                after its
                > one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in
                war.
                > Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go
                through
                > something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both
                Judaism
                > and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary
                for men's
                > minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of
                how good
                > the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the
                British and
                > then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It
                appears to
                > be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one
                heading back
                > into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings
                in the
                > present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping
                it die out
                > as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in
                the Dust
                > Bin of History.
                >
                > BTW, as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough
                arguments, a
                > Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that
                Mohammed just
                > borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through
                Arabia,
                > and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a
                vehicle for his
                > tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very
                skeptical
                > about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about
                Joseph
                > Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion
                flatly
                > false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded
                that it
                > was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no
                real
                > spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an
                enlightened
                > Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion
                only here in
                > America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the
                > Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions,
                although we are
                > nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people
                as
                > enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate
                our Salman
                > Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that
                wants to
                > practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
                > -starman
                >
                >
                > > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                > > > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
                > > > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly *
                define
                > > the implicit
                > > > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
                > > portion of
                > > > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness
                he
                > > builds to
                > > > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
                > > connection â€"
                > > > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend
                a
                > > single lecture
                > > > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at
                the
                > > conclusion ?
                > > > >
                > > > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post
                here,
                > > talking
                > > > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
                > > prepared to have
                > > > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear
                about
                > > this
                > > > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone
                here
                > > seems to
                > > > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not
                demonic
                > > Dark Age
                > > > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
                > > holocausts. But
                > > > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
                > > > > -starman
                > > >
                > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                > > > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                > > > > September 1924 / Switzerland
                > > > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                > > > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the
                Father
                > > > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and
                physically)
                > > â€"
                > > > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                > > > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                > > > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and
                can
                > > > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
                > > > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah,
                and
                > > > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                > > > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                > > > > polarity to Christianity.
                > > > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                > > > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever,
                the
                > > will
                > > > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social
                order
                > > > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing
                else
                > > > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                > > > > Father God alone.
                > > > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                > > > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                > > > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                > > > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine
                of
                > > > > the Father (alone).
                > > > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his
                own
                > > > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able
                to
                > > > > conceive the Father God.
                > > > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                > > > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection
                from
                > > > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are
                illusionary
                > > and
                > > > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                > > > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone)
                inescapably
                > > > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                > > > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                > > > > from purely material causes.
                > > > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
                > > with
                > > > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is
                reflected /
                > > > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                > > > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                > > > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
                > > > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                > > > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to
                the lures
                > > > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                > > > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender
                all inward
                > > > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
                > > with
                > > > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
                > > > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
                > > (future)
                > > > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                > > > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything
                arises
                > > that
                > > > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature,
                first
                > > of
                > > > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses
                of
                > > > > will and action.
                > > > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                > > > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                > > > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                > > > > sun-intelligence.
                > > > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the
                representatives
                > > > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                > > > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                > > > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                > > > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order
                to
                > > > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                > > > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                > > > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and
                its
                > > > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow
                from
                > > the
                > > > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                > > > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism
                was
                > > > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian
                understanding
                > > of
                > > > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as
                if
                > > this
                > > > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the
                Father
                > > principle
                > > > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces
                indeed
                > > > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                > > > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a
                sacrament
                > > > > such as transubstantiation.
                > > > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result
                of
                > > > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                > > > > of the number 666….)
                > > > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden
                but
                > > > > actively at work within the external process of outward
                events;
                > > he
                > > > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                > > > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number
                666:
                > > > > 1998 A.D.
                > > > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will
                come
                > > when
                > > > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                > > > > waves of history.
                > > > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run
                before
                > > > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                > > > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                > > > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                > > > > whom many are "possessed."
                > > > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                > > > > believe that they are really human beings.
                > > > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by
                their
                > > > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only
                scoff
                > > at
                > > > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                > > > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                > > > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions,
                with
                > > > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in
                their
                > > > > emotions.
                > > > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                > > > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                > > > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and
                the
                > > > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
                > > adversary
                > > > > over against the spiritual.
                > > > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                > > > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in
                contrast to
                > > what
                > > > > is to come.
                > > > > - - - - - - - - - -
                > >
                >
                >
                > http://www.DrStarman.net
              • Br. Ron
                Brother Bradford sez: ...I for one, can t even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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                  Brother Bradford sez:

                  "...I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the
                  Sorath
                  e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal
                  Cross
                  burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what
                  Starman has just brought in regards to Islamic history."

                  I don't think 'flaming' is so much the issue (although it is hard to discuss
                  Arabism without sensing the incredible potential for volatile combusition)

                  I think it has more to do with understanding the mechanics of Islam as
                  it relates to it's instruction book.....the Koran.

                  History does provide a bit of a framework. But even if there were no
                  documented references to the "Bloody Borders of Islam," this info is written
                  indelibly in the Astral Light for anyone with even partially developed
                  psychic sensibilities.

                  Rudolph Steiner isn't the only credible source to suggest that Islam is a
                  progenitor of antichrist (the sun demon... the 'qliphoth of Tiphareth')

                  As I said before, unlike the Judeo/Christian scriptural mandates,
                  the Koran offers absolutely no mechanism for change.....
                  no 'Once and Future King' .. no Redeemer...no sprouting seed...
                  no Oversoul offering continuous upgrades by way of etheric
                  embedding and quickening.

                  Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
                  locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
                  gotta give.

                  I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
                  It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
                  our
                  global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on it.


                  Br. Ron
                • Bradford Riley
                  From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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                    From: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
                    >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
                    >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700

                    Brother Ron brought;

                    >Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
                    >locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
                    >gotta give.
                    >
                    >I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
                    >It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
                    >our
                    >global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on
                    >it.

                    Bradford responds;

                    Dear, beloved Grail brother;

                    This is the way the world ends
                    This is the way the world ends
                    This is the way the world ends
                    Not with a bang but a whimper.

                    Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
                    threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
                    shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
                    of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
                    not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
                    form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
                    as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.

                    Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
                    allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
                    trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
                    anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.

                    Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
                    from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
                    as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
                    of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
                    not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
                    False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
                    have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
                    to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
                    brothers and sisters and unites all religions.

                    The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
                    toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
                    old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
                    of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
                    Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
                    everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
                    mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
                    worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.

                    Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
                    vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
                    disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
                    clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
                    War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
                    infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
                    from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
                    Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
                    issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
                    to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
                    be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
                    regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.

                    Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
                    certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.

                    We are the hollow men
                    We are the stuffed men
                    Leaning together
                    Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
                    Our dried voices, when
                    We whisper together
                    Are quiet and meaningless
                    As wind in dry grass
                    Or rats' feet over broken glass
                    In our dry cellar

                    Shape without form, shade without colour,
                    Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

                    Those who have crossed
                    With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
                    Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
                    Violent souls, but only
                    As the hollow men
                    The stuffed men.

                    Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
                    In death's dream kingdom
                    These do not appear:
                    There, the eyes are
                    Sunlight on a broken column
                    There, is a tree swinging
                    And voices are
                    In the wind's singing
                    More distant and more solemn
                    Than a fading star.

                    This is the dead land
                    This is cactus land
                    Here the stone images
                    Are raised, here they receive
                    The supplication of a dead man's hand
                    Under the twinkle of a fading star.

                    Is it like this
                    In death's other kingdom
                    Waking alone
                    At the hour when we are
                    Trembling with tenderness
                    Lips that would kiss
                    Form prayers to broken stone.

                    The eyes are not here
                    There are no eyes here
                    In this valley of dying stars
                    In this hollow valley
                    This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

                    In this last of meeting places
                    We grope together
                    And avoid speech
                    Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

                    Between the idea
                    And the reality
                    Between the motion
                    And the act
                    Falls the Shadow

                    For Thine is the Kingdom

                    Between the conception
                    And the creation
                    Between the emotion
                    And the response
                    Falls the Shadow

                    Between the desire
                    And the spasm
                    Between the potency
                    And the existence
                    Between the essence
                    And the descent
                    Falls the Shadow
                    For Thine is the Kingdom

                    This is the way the world ends
                    This is the way the world ends
                    This is the way the world ends
                    Not with a bang but a whimper.

                    http://www.thedubyareport.com/chuckman3.html

                    ****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
                    grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
                    threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
                    might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of
                    terror.

                    Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
                    tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
                    relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
                    acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
                    Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
                    Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.

                    Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
                    serious threat to no one but his own people.

                    The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
                    at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
                    what is fit to print.

                    But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
                    There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
                    Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
                    superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
                    is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
                    observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
                    kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
                    to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
                    their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
                    poorly-conceived projects.

                    The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
                    Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
                    political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
                    post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
                    than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
                    evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
                    from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.

                    The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
                    using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
                    conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
                    A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
                    place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
                    deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
                    apologists at the State Department).

                    The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
                    something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
                    the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
                    of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
                    using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
                    Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.

                    But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
                    that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
                    measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
                    stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
                    kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
                    now!" A very popular sentiment in America.

                    Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
                    middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
                    foot about what counts: its portfolio.

                    It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
                    happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
                    correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
                    a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
                    of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
                    let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
                    sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.

                    Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
                    wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
                    the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
                    terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.

                    Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
                    ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
                    Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
                    this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
                    conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "

                    Bradford

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Br. Ron
                    Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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                      Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.
                      I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while
                      but since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is only
                      right to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simply
                      deleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhat
                      cloistered subject matter. 
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      Sir Bradford...
                      Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
                      You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
                      could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')

                      Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
                      In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
                      post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
                      approach to her perceived enemies.

                      Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
                      (nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
                      to seek to be understood as well as to understand)

                      First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
                      point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself who
                      walk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way to
                      perform at the Renaissance Faire.
                       
                      But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.
                      It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss it
                      without diluting it's meaning.
                       
                      It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole year
                      because of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality in
                      relation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one who
                      has fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you can
                      imagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my whole
                      tribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one who
                      perpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.
                       
                      I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'
                      and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the
                      'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'
                      because it often departs too severely from the fundamental
                      heart of the melody.
                       
                      In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophists
                      in relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of the
                      concert as it was written 2000 years ago,  at the Hub of Time..and timing.
                       
                      Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitely
                      complex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the Original
                      Melody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues like
                      Catholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everything
                      backward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and am
                      only now getting around to learning to read music :-)
                       
                      As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different
                      'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I was 
                      becoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.
                      I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Monday
                      night and saving Bach until Tuesday.
                       
                      Now to politics.
                       
                      George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of his
                      inarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handle
                      on the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to back
                      entrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poor
                      the homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. The
                      pendulum will swing back...it always does
                       
                      What Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of
                      'as above, so below.'  "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of a
                      scoundrel." 
                      Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize that
                      a cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,
                      eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which will
                      expel it from the whole body.
                       
                      The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the result
                      of those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.
                       
                      No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.
                       
                      I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that we
                      must be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be
                      'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends all
                      these things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.
                       
                      But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align our
                      molecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we must
                      understand what the essence of Christianity is.
                       
                      In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit of
                      Cosmic Beauty.
                      Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolution
                      of the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.
                      We nevertheless need the discordants. Without them
                      the melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.
                       
                      The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to the
                      pruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans don
                      our Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell of
                      the crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.
                       
                      This is what has made America so great. She has put her
                      money where her mouth is and courageously entered the fray
                      against those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatened
                      the freedoms of the innocents.
                       
                      The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissures
                      in our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...
                      Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.
                      If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% into
                      the deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in the
                      first place.
                       
                      "Be ye hot or be ye cold..."
                       
                      When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as the
                      leader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?
                      Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is not
                      the same as a mere bullying arrogance.
                       
                      War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardly
                      upon the screen of Creation.
                       
                      I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel the
                      need to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalist
                      position.
                       
                      By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuous
                      torture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no more
                      acceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarism
                      against the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his black
                      altar.
                       
                      We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells which
                      seek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinister
                      temptation of mere appeasement.
                       
                      This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagree
                      about these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were right
                      in our collective geo-political actions.
                       
                      But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will in
                      our movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.
                       
                      As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behind
                      taking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....
                      but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be tolerated
                       
                      Thanks for reading this, my creative friend.
                       
                       
                      Br. Ron
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                    • elaineupton2001
                      Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002
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                        Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,

                        You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
                        not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
                        Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
                        question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
                        Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
                        best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
                        I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
                        highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
                        praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
                        (biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
                        (Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
                        know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
                        translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
                        after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.

                        More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
                        the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be
                        correct.

                        Blessings,
                        elaine

                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
                        > Hello you all,
                        >
                        > I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
                        Archiati,
                        > quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
                        being invited
                        > by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
                        and 2001 at
                        > the "Religions of the world" session.
                        > In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
                        Goetheanum
                        > under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
                        to tie
                        > those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
                        Christ
                        > impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
                        years later
                        > as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
                        Muhammad
                        > Christ.
                        > Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
                        Muhammad , and the
                        > goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
                        > Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
                        thinks , the
                        > Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
                        Anthroposophy and
                        > Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
                        of giving
                        > it a seal of authenticity.
                        >
                        > Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Best regards
                        >
                        > Marc
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