- Hi Joksu,
(There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
> meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.
> In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TSThere was some sort of Rosicrucian Anthroposophical Society in the US
> (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
> organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
> called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".
>Seeking thruth is more interesting thanThat's right, the name is unimportant. Dr. Steiner once said that it
> seeking names.
wouldn't matter if the Society changed its name every week.
> It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not
> proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending myNo, it is not a "Steiner" list but an anthroposophical list, "which
> posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all.
covers" the work of Rudolf Steiner. There have been lots of
anthroposophical teachers. You have placed some very good studies
before us here, so don't stop.
> joksu writes:
> There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And
> don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.Yes, that is the Rosicrucian perspective. We need an all round view,
> Steiner, then the case is closed.
and sometimes we find one truth is opposed by an equally true
opposite- like the proverbs, "Familiarity breeds contempt"
and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."
> The solution to the third "teacher"It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
> death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
> won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
> aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
> resurrection body.
qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)
I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
- --- In anthroposophy@y..., "holderlin66" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
> As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. II
> will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
> will be visiting my extended family in Norway.
> But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts.
> am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texasand
> have been planning my wedding to take place next year near CrawfordJoksu writes:
Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your
posts. Your writings have given me many new insights (and large
amount of material to study).
Meeting you would be really fine! By the way, just a couple of months
ago I was in Norway (for the first time). We (my wife and two sons
included) came with a ferry to Sweden, Umeå and drove from there to
Mo i Rana, Central Norway. The landscape was very beautiful and the
mountains were impressive; Finland is more of the "flatland-type".
If you are really coming to somewhere in Scandinavia, just tell in
advance about your schelude, so I can make possible arrangement
concerning my summer vacation. Only one weekend is now reserved, in
19.7.2003 we (my wife is also a fan of Wagner's music) will be in
Savonlinna Opera Festival; we have already the tickets to "Tristan
und Isolde". (This summer we saw there "Die Meistersinger von
Nürnberg by Deutche Opern, a very good performance.)
And congratulations in advance for your "wedding to come".
> >Bradford wrote:
> I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an innerJr
> connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
> relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
> (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King
> in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience...Joksu writes:
Your research concerning Buddhism and Mars sphere seems really
interesting. Buddhism is in some sense the "highest" of the old
religions, religions of the Holy Ghost. It can be a real gate to true
christianity (which is sorely lacking nowadays). There is a saying in
Christosophy that true christianity starts from the "Mars-initiation"
or a Mars-experience. It can be (a bit poeticly) stated that in this
phase "the sword is turned into a cross, then pushed into our own
heart and when the selfish blood is bleeding away, we simultaniously
can give the roses of love to our fellowmen".
You mentioned Gandhi and I remember reading somewhere (though I may
be mistaken) that Gandhi was inspired in his own actions by the
general stike and the passive resistance, which happened in Finland
1905. The Csar and mighty Russia backed from its oppressive acts
after this "silent protest". Mr. Ervast said that without some minor
conflicts, where some amount of violence was used, Finland could have
gained its independence right away. It was the ideal of Mr. Ervast
that Finland could have started its "career as an independent nation"
without any army, trusting to spiritual powers and providence, and
acting as an new example to the world. Unfortunately, time was not
yet right for this "dream" to come true.
I guess that more work is needed, where individuals can take the
required steps towards something that Dr. Steiner refererred
as "thinking with the heart". But also the "schooling" which happens
in the "after-death" states is very important, when we think about
> Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal andI
> would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.Joksu writes:
I really do appreciate your interest in Christosophy and Kalevala.
(Sometimes earlier Danny said that he might read the "Kalevala-poems"
this summer.) There are many interesting "mystery-pictures" in those
old poems. E.g. in the "Sampo-poems" can be found out an attempt to
build the resurrection body (sun-body). It failed, of course, as
every attempt in this direction failed until Jesus Christ changed the
course of history, but it was a nice try anyway!
- --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
> Hi Joksu,joksu writes:
> (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
> > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)
> Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.
OK, but little background first.
Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned
to read french at the age of five or six and when he was twelve he
was writing a comparable grammatic concerning nine different
languages. So translating Dr. Steiner's answers was from this point
of view, was an easy job for him.
An other thing I want to point out, is that Mr. Ervast was a
rather "shy" man. He said that it is painful for him to "expose"
himself to the public. He didn't like any praise/attention to his
personality and he never spoke publicly about any "special abilities"
he might have; such things could only distract the attention away
from the "main thing", the significance and teachings of Jesus
Christ. So this episode is told by a student and a friend of Mr.
Ervast, when PE was already dead (which happened in 1934).
After his lecture cycle Dr. Steiner held a meeting, where he answered
several questions. At least part of the questions were made by Mr.
Ervast. Some of the answers of Dr. Steiner were quite long (& profoud)
and he didn't divide them to several parts, but "told the whole
story" and then waited for the translator to do his job. Mr. Ervast
translated without hesitation even Dr. Steiner's longest answers to
finnish language. This made quite an impression to RS and according a
theosophical magazine from 1912 Dr. Steiner assured that he had never
seen anything like this. Well, mayby RS was just polite and Mr.
Ervast had exceptional memory, but there is an other explanation also.
Mr. Ervast told later privately to a pupil and a friend of his that
he "wrote down" the answers to "astral matter" and from "there"
translated them. If that is the case, and when we remember
the "clairvoyant powers" of Dr. Steiner, he could certainly make some
interesting observations and so the amazement is justified.
> > The solution to the third "teacher"the
> > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
> > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
> > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building
> > resurrection body.Bruce wrote:
> It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these threejoksu writes:
> qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
> L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
> drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
> Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
> philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)
> I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
In this connection I surely share your uncomfortable feelings. About
L.Ron Hubbard and his Scientology I think that I use the old
principle: "If you don't have anything nice to say about a person, be
then quiet." So I have nothing to say about Hubbard! What makes
scientology dangerous, lies in the fact that is has some small pieces
of thruth incorporated to its web of lies.
There can easily be something misleading, when one talks about the
drive to survive. I don't approve the idea to reduce "everything" to
this point. In an earlier message I have delt with this question from
an other angle: (I really love it, when sometimes I can copy/paste
and it's not necessary to "translate" all the time!)
"It is said that mankind has five "enemies": ignorance, selfishness,
sickness, poverty and death. It can also be said that selfishness
is "the worst sickness" and death is the "greatest
poverty". So we can also speak about three enemies and there's a
correspondense to our thinking, feeling and "will-functions". "