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Christophosist

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  • fireofthe12
    Hi Joksu, (There is an interesting story connected to this question- ... Do tell- the listmembers are all ears. ... There was some sort of Rosicrucian
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 31 9:51 PM
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      Hi Joksu,
      (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
      > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)

      Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.


      > In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TS
      > (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
      > organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
      > called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".

      There was some sort of Rosicrucian Anthroposophical Society in the US
      as well.



      >Seeking thruth is more interesting than
      > seeking names.

      That's right, the name is unimportant. Dr. Steiner once said that it
      wouldn't matter if the Society changed its name every week.

      >
      > It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not
      the
      > proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending my
      > posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all.

      No, it is not a "Steiner" list but an anthroposophical list, "which
      covers" the work of Rudolf Steiner. There have been lots of
      anthroposophical teachers. You have placed some very good studies
      before us here, so don't stop.

      >
      > joksu writes:
      > There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And
      I
      > don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.
      > Steiner, then the case is closed.

      Yes, that is the Rosicrucian perspective. We need an all round view,
      and sometimes we find one truth is opposed by an equally true
      opposite- like the proverbs, "Familiarity breeds contempt"
      and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

      > The solution to the third "teacher"
      > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
      > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
      > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
      > resurrection body.

      It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
      qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
      L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
      drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
      Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
      philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)

      I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
      think?

      Kind Regards,
      Bruce
    • joksu57
      ... I ... and ... Joksu writes: Hello Bradford! Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your posts. Your writings have given me many new
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "holderlin66" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
        > As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I
        > will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
        > will be visiting my extended family in Norway.
        >
        > But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts.
        I
        > am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texas
        and
        > have been planning my wedding to take place next year near Crawford
        > Texas.
        >

        Joksu writes:

        Hello Bradford!

        Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your
        posts. Your writings have given me many new insights (and large
        amount of material to study).

        Meeting you would be really fine! By the way, just a couple of months
        ago I was in Norway (for the first time). We (my wife and two sons
        included) came with a ferry to Sweden, Umeå and drove from there to
        Mo i Rana, Central Norway. The landscape was very beautiful and the
        mountains were impressive; Finland is more of the "flatland-type".

        If you are really coming to somewhere in Scandinavia, just tell in
        advance about your schelude, so I can make possible arrangement
        concerning my summer vacation. Only one weekend is now reserved, in
        19.7.2003 we (my wife is also a fan of Wagner's music) will be in
        Savonlinna Opera Festival; we have already the tickets to "Tristan
        und Isolde". (This summer we saw there "Die Meistersinger von
        Nürnberg by Deutche Opern, a very good performance.)
        And congratulations in advance for your "wedding to come".

        > >
        Bradford wrote:
        > I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an inner
        > connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
        > relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
        > (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King
        Jr
        > in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience...

        Joksu writes:
        Your research concerning Buddhism and Mars sphere seems really
        interesting. Buddhism is in some sense the "highest" of the old
        religions, religions of the Holy Ghost. It can be a real gate to true
        christianity (which is sorely lacking nowadays). There is a saying in
        Christosophy that true christianity starts from the "Mars-initiation"
        or a Mars-experience. It can be (a bit poeticly) stated that in this
        phase "the sword is turned into a cross, then pushed into our own
        heart and when the selfish blood is bleeding away, we simultaniously
        can give the roses of love to our fellowmen".

        You mentioned Gandhi and I remember reading somewhere (though I may
        be mistaken) that Gandhi was inspired in his own actions by the
        general stike and the passive resistance, which happened in Finland
        1905. The Csar and mighty Russia backed from its oppressive acts
        after this "silent protest". Mr. Ervast said that without some minor
        conflicts, where some amount of violence was used, Finland could have
        gained its independence right away. It was the ideal of Mr. Ervast
        that Finland could have started its "career as an independent nation"
        without any army, trusting to spiritual powers and providence, and
        acting as an new example to the world. Unfortunately, time was not
        yet right for this "dream" to come true.

        I guess that more work is needed, where individuals can take the
        required steps towards something that Dr. Steiner refererred
        as "thinking with the heart". But also the "schooling" which happens
        in the "after-death" states is very important, when we think about
        the future.

        Bradford wrote:
        > Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal and
        I
        > would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.
        >

        Joksu writes:
        I really do appreciate your interest in Christosophy and Kalevala.
        (Sometimes earlier Danny said that he might read the "Kalevala-poems"
        this summer.) There are many interesting "mystery-pictures" in those
        old poems. E.g. in the "Sampo-poems" can be found out an attempt to
        build the resurrection body (sun-body). It failed, of course, as
        every attempt in this direction failed until Jesus Christ changed the
        course of history, but it was a nice try anyway!

        Warm Greetings
        Joksu
      • joksu57
        ... joksu writes: Hello Bruce! OK, but little background first. Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned to read french at the age of
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Joksu,
          > (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
          > > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)
          >
          > Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.
          >

          joksu writes:
          Hello Bruce!

          OK, but little background first.

          Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned
          to read french at the age of five or six and when he was twelve he
          was writing a comparable grammatic concerning nine different
          languages. So translating Dr. Steiner's answers was from this point
          of view, was an easy job for him.

          An other thing I want to point out, is that Mr. Ervast was a
          rather "shy" man. He said that it is painful for him to "expose"
          himself to the public. He didn't like any praise/attention to his
          personality and he never spoke publicly about any "special abilities"
          he might have; such things could only distract the attention away
          from the "main thing", the significance and teachings of Jesus
          Christ. So this episode is told by a student and a friend of Mr.
          Ervast, when PE was already dead (which happened in 1934).

          After his lecture cycle Dr. Steiner held a meeting, where he answered
          several questions. At least part of the questions were made by Mr.
          Ervast. Some of the answers of Dr. Steiner were quite long (& profoud)
          and he didn't divide them to several parts, but "told the whole
          story" and then waited for the translator to do his job. Mr. Ervast
          translated without hesitation even Dr. Steiner's longest answers to
          finnish language. This made quite an impression to RS and according a
          theosophical magazine from 1912 Dr. Steiner assured that he had never
          seen anything like this. Well, mayby RS was just polite and Mr.
          Ervast had exceptional memory, but there is an other explanation also.

          Mr. Ervast told later privately to a pupil and a friend of his that
          he "wrote down" the answers to "astral matter" and from "there"
          translated them. If that is the case, and when we remember
          the "clairvoyant powers" of Dr. Steiner, he could certainly make some
          interesting observations and so the amazement is justified.


          > > The solution to the third "teacher"
          > > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
          > > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
          > > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building
          the
          > > resurrection body.
          >
          Bruce wrote:
          > It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
          > qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
          > L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
          > drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
          > Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
          > philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)
          >
          > I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
          > think?
          >

          joksu writes:
          In this connection I surely share your uncomfortable feelings. About
          L.Ron Hubbard and his Scientology I think that I use the old
          principle: "If you don't have anything nice to say about a person, be
          then quiet." So I have nothing to say about Hubbard! What makes
          scientology dangerous, lies in the fact that is has some small pieces
          of thruth incorporated to its web of lies.

          There can easily be something misleading, when one talks about the
          drive to survive. I don't approve the idea to reduce "everything" to
          this point. In an earlier message I have delt with this question from
          an other angle: (I really love it, when sometimes I can copy/paste
          and it's not necessary to "translate" all the time!)

          "It is said that mankind has five "enemies": ignorance, selfishness,
          sickness, poverty and death. It can also be said that selfishness
          is "the worst sickness" and death is the "greatest
          poverty". So we can also speak about three enemies and there's a
          correspondense to our thinking, feeling and "will-functions". "

          Warm Regards
          Joksu
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