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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Masonry/Reuss

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  • jla
    If I recall, the CRC connection can be easily inferred from lecture on Lazarus in the Gospel of St.John According to the Other Gospels. I may be mistaken on
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 28 6:41 AM
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      If I recall, the CRC connection can be easily inferred from lecture on Lazarus in the
      Gospel of St.John According to the Other Gospels. I may be mistaken on this cycle but not to the association. Lazarus was the first person to recieve the first great Initiation and it came through Christ.
       
      Jeff
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:31 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Masonry/Reuss

      Hello Joksu,
                  Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
      theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
      anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
      anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm talking
      about the Adyar TS BTW.


      >             
      > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
      > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
      > Rosenkreuz"-stream.

      These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of any
      lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between Master
      C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
      this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because in
      one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he talks
      about Father C.R. being Hiram.

      > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry. After
      > the work and teachings of e.g.

      According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
      ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division of
      the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
      nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
      societies were matriarchal.

      In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex. This
      will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
      future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
      connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.

      This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.

      See Steiner's The Temple Legend.

      Hearty Greetings,
      Bruce






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    • joksu57
      ... talking ... Joksu writes: Hi Bruce! And thanks for your interest. I m not an antroposophical antroposophist (whatever that means), that s for sure! Well,
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 30 11:43 AM
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        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
        > Hello Joksu,
        > Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
        > theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
        > anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
        > anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm
        talking
        > about the Adyar TS BTW.
        >

        Joksu writes:
        Hi Bruce! And thanks for your interest.

        I'm not an antroposophical antroposophist (whatever that means),
        that's for sure! Well, you asked for it (classifications) and here it
        comes (a little warning; this needs a little longer story, even
        though everything is "simplified" to bare bones )!

        In the early seventies when I studied the books of HPB, I thought
        this was the best "explanation" (worldview) I have read so far.
        Perhaps, in some sense, I was a theosophist then, but I never joined
        any formal theosophical society. Then a bit later I bumbed into
        the "basic" books of RS (PoF excluded) and got more excited: this is
        clearer and better than anything I've met before. I e.g. writed down
        large passages from the "How to get knowledge from higher worlds" (a
        library book) and meditated according those instructions in that book.

        A bit later on I read (many times, of course) PoF and this was a very
        powerful experience. This had some outer consiquences also; I decided
        to start studying theoretical philosophy in a university.
        (This "academic philosophy" was a disappointment after PoF,
        naturally, but the history of philosophy was interesting, though.) So
        I was some sort of an antroposophist then, but I didn't join any
        antroposophical society; I only studied by myself.

        In the year 1980 I found the teachings of Pekka Ervast (a local
        library had some sixty of his books.) Now I must tell something about
        this spiritual teacher.

        Mr. Ervast was born 26 December 1875 and he had a powerful Christ-
        experience in waking consciousness 1896, when he was nearly 21 years
        old (but he started talking publicly about this and also other
        experiences, when he was forty). In the beginning of 1900-century Mr.
        Ervast became the president of the TS (Adyar) of Finland. Later PE
        (as he was usually called) invited Dr. Steiner to give lectures in
        Finland and in 1912 RS came. In a "question-meeting" Mr. Ervast
        translated Dr. Steiner's long and profound answers to finnish
        language. (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
        meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)

        Dr. Steiner and Mr. Ervast had deep discussions and RS suggested that
        they could have co-operation in the future, but then came
        the "Krishnamurti-episode", founding of AP and WW I. Mr. Ervast
        stayed in TS (altough in the Christ Event, the "Krishnamurti-episode"
        and in many other questions PE shared the views of Dr. Steiner), when
        Dr. Steiner left, but many theosophist left the TS in Finland and
        follewed Dr. Steiner. So the antroposophy in Finland benefited also
        from the srong work done by Mr. Ervast, who was from the beginning of
        the century working exclusively as a writer, lecturer and leader of
        TS in Finland.

        In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TS
        (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
        organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
        called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".

        Mr. Ervast never stressed the differences between his and HPB's
        teachings, though he "wondered" some expressions used by HPB. Ervast
        has written that it is easier to understand the real value of true
        christianity after one knows other religions. So the original
        theosophy could have served as a gate to the greater mysteries,
        Christ-mysteries. PE also continued to use the "old theosophical
        concepts", whenever that was possible.

        There is much common with Dr. Steiner's teachings; perhaps one of the
        main
        differences lies in the fact that teachings of Jesus Christ are more
        incorporated to Christosophy, not only the meaning of the Golgotha
        Mystery. By this I mean e.g. that the awakening of the chakras is
        linked to the new commandments given in the Sermon on the mount
        (=moral virtues), the four
        etheric forces and four essential requirements (or qualities, which
        RS deals with in his book "How to get..") are linked to eight
        beatitudes, which are taken as
        four pares and so on.

        Trying to say something intelligible in a few lines about Mr.
        Ervast's teachings is a task which is probably doomed to fail. If
        someone wants to take a closer look, there are couple of books
        available in english, though. "The Esoteric School of Jesus" by Blue
        Dolphin Publishing is printed in USA and gives one aspect to the
        teachings of Jesus Christ. (That book is written in "TS-time" 1916.)
        An other book (by Blue Dolphin) is called "The Key to Kalevala". The
        most "important" book in some sense, "The Sermon on the Mount or the
        Key to Christianity" (author's translations) is probably not
        available in US.

        So, back to my story. When in 1980 I started reading the books of Mr.
        Ervast, I was annoyed in the beginning. I had a feeling: "Why is he
        teaching all this, when Dr. Steiner anyway knows the subject much
        better". But when I studied more, then in some point I got annoyed to
        RS, because my initial attitude was shattered (I guess that it is a
        common thing to project our own shortcomings to spiritual teachers).
        After "clearing" my own feelings I was happy to have more inspiring
        material to study. Then I also found out that I was even more
        attached to the "stream", which Mr. Ervast represented.

        Now I can give an answer to your question: I am an antroposophical
        christosophist or a christosophist studying antroposophy (and using
        theosophical terminology)! What kind of a story does all this make
        up? (Well, I don't know either.) On the other hand I don't give much
        weight to "classifications". Seeking thruth is more interesting than
        seeking names.

        It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not the
        proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending my
        posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all. Perhaps
        the "spiritual science" –list would have been more appropriate. When
        I first studied these two forums, this list seemed to be more
        interesting: "better" topics and the discussion was
        more "consentrated".

        >
        > >
        > > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
        > > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-
        Lazarus/St.John-
        > > Rosenkreuz"-stream.
        >

        Bruce wrote:
        > These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of
        any
        > lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between
        Master
        > C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
        > this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because
        in
        > one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he
        talks
        > about Father C.R. being Hiram.
        >

        joksu writes:

        It is true that Dr. Steiner gives only some hints around this matter
        (at least in those papers which I have read). In one of my earlier
        messages ( number 3660: "This Bradford's text reminds me of a lecture
        named "Cain", held by an eminent occultist in the year 1931. I want
        to share some insights, which have stemmed mainly from this
        lecture"...) I referred to the lecture "Cain" held by Mr. Ervast in
        1931 and in this lecture the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
        Rosenkreutz" –connection is made clear. Later, to my surprise, I
        found out that Mr. Heindel has also told about this "stream" and
        these connections.

        > > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry.
        After
        > > the work and teachings of e.g.
        >
        Bruce wrote:
        > According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
        > ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division
        of
        > the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
        > nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
        > societies were matriarchal.
        >
        > In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex.
        This
        > will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
        > future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
        > connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.
        >
        > This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.
        >
        > See Steiner's The Temple Legend.

        joksu writes:
        There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And I
        don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.
        Steiner, then the case is closed. See e.g. message 3378 / the wedding
        at Cana, where the interpretation I refer to is originally given by
        Mr. Ervast in his lectures about the evangelium of St.John. It is a
        different one compared to that which Dr. Steiner gives in his own
        lectures, and (IMHO) in no way inferior.

        "(See John 2:1-12) There are six stone jars mentioned and then there
        must be the seventh "bowl" also. The six "lower" chakras are filled
        with pure feelings (water), but it is the seventh (at the top of the
        head) which makes the "miracle". All chakras are now full of
        spiritual activity (wine) and the steward (the Initiator) was
        amazed:"you have kept the best wine till now". In the "old covenant"
        the chakras had to be awakened starting from the bottom, the base
        chakra, with the help of kundalini, (the serpent-power) and the head-
        chakra was the last one activated. The Initiator understood that
        something exceptional had now occurred and in some sense this is a
        decription of the initiation of Jesus Christ. The crown chakra, which
        gives the connection to the "Kindom of God", is activated first and
        from this chakra the "spiritual wine" is poured to other chakras. …"

        So I see no problem connecting the Lost Word and Logos, Cosmic
        Christ, Word, especially when we think about the connection between
        Hiram Abif and St. John. The procreation without the need for sex is
        not possible without the help of Christ.

        It is said that there are three "great teachers" in humanity: hunger,
        sexuality and death (connected to the instinct to survive). We must
        learn to work that we can get the "daily bread". (the condition after
        the "Paradise-state"). This can also be linked to our intellectual
        abilities, which must be developed in this "working process" and in a
        way, this stage can be linked to the "Holy Ghost".
        Sexuality must eventually "be redeemed" through pure love, through
        the love of Christ (Son). The solution to the third "teacher"
        death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
        won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
        aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
        resurrection body.

        From this point of view, the answer that Dr. Steiner gave to the Lost
        Word and linking this "Lost Word/question about procreation" to
        Christ, the real Word, are not necessarily so far from each other.

        Best Regards
        Joksu
      • holderlin66
        As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I will be visiting my
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 31 9:18 AM
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          As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I
          will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
          will be visiting my extended family in Norway.

          But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts. I
          am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texas and
          have been planning my wedding to take place next year near Crawford
          Texas.

          My interest is always illuminated by your posts. I can't speak for
          Bruce, nor would I ever want to, "Bruce" as an individual also
          awakens some of the same deeper sense of research that inspires my
          own work.

          I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an inner
          connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
          relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
          (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King Jr
          in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience. In
          these individuals and many others I have traced including, Erasmus;
          St. Francis; Loyola; Swedenborg even Herman Hesse, I have been able
          to track Buddhistic studies that connect to how Monastaries in the
          Devachan, after our Earth life has been completed, bring us to a kind
          of Tibet on Mars. Individuals incarnate again with lessons learned in
          their Buddhist and St. Francis experiences on Mars and we can see
          exactly how these Mars experiences have raised a new reality for
          social life that have changed and continues to change Earthly culture.

          In Oliver Stone and all the the VietNam War veterans I know, they
          will be experiencing an illumination and a new path of learning in
          the Mars Sphere of the Devachan when they complete this incarnation.
          This means that thousands of new souls like Gandhi and Martin Luther
          King Jr. will bring totally new but observable forces on their return
          incarnations into Earth. We will be able to see and understand these
          events in relation to the Monastaries run by Buddha and St.Francis on
          Mars.

          What I find so 'cutting edge' so worthy of news, is that, these
          events can be followed as efforts through Human extensions into the
          cosmos, new human history lessons that must be shaped for the study
          of society and education in the near future. In other words these
          words and insights given out of our esoteric schooling apply directly
          to current life mysteries. There are hundreds of ways to bringing
          them to light for everyone.

          Joksu you also mentioned the spilling of the vessels, six containers
          that should have been 7 related to the Chakras. It is most
          illuminating to go to the text by Christian Rosenkreuz, the Chymical
          Wedding and see the fountain that is in the Venus Mystery. It is a
          picture of the Female/Male dove bound unity in the chakra fields of
          nature and creation. I often talk about the dove and the Sea Horse as
          revealing this spiral shift of the sexes above in the wing world and
          below in the sea world. Humanity stands in the middle as the balanced
          micro system with a rainbow balance between limbs, shoulder blades,
          Dorsel fins, in nature.

          So, yes, research and understanding the Christ event, for me and a
          few of those I see on this list, reflect profound current events and
          revelations to study on just how Earth will Change; What Gold is;
          What the Old Moon and the gnome Alberich did when he denied Love and
          bound himself only to matter and Light in Earth evolution, and its
          relation to the whispered Equation that the old gnome whispered to
          Einstein E=MC2. What is missing is the Earth revelation of Love in
          the equation. It is so current as to grasp that by creating nuclear
          waste we are creating Old Moon matter that cannot go to the Jupiter
          evolution with us. This can be traced with clarity. It includes
          Wagner, Tolkein and Buddha to point out through Humans, the profound
          mystery of Earth, Christ and Gold. Our terrible secret is that we all
          become the Gemut of the new Christed Gold Standard in our Souls.
          Those that know how to think that is.

          But it requires New Thinking and here is where we are sorely hurting
          after all the years of debate about society and thinking and Monism
          that there are very few who can grasp the thinking field in
          Consciousness Soul pictures and education enough, so that we can
          raise the bar, as it were. We need many who raise the thinking field
          to a new level above the tattered forces of the Intellectual Soul.
          Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal and I
          would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.

          It is always a pleasure hearing from you and so manny of those who
          are working with real thinking on the issue of the Christ Event.

          Bradford
        • fireofthe12
          Hi Joksu, (There is an interesting story connected to this question- ... Do tell- the listmembers are all ears. ... There was some sort of Rosicrucian
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 31 9:51 PM
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            Hi Joksu,
            (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
            > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)

            Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.


            > In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TS
            > (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
            > organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
            > called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".

            There was some sort of Rosicrucian Anthroposophical Society in the US
            as well.



            >Seeking thruth is more interesting than
            > seeking names.

            That's right, the name is unimportant. Dr. Steiner once said that it
            wouldn't matter if the Society changed its name every week.

            >
            > It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not
            the
            > proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending my
            > posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all.

            No, it is not a "Steiner" list but an anthroposophical list, "which
            covers" the work of Rudolf Steiner. There have been lots of
            anthroposophical teachers. You have placed some very good studies
            before us here, so don't stop.

            >
            > joksu writes:
            > There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And
            I
            > don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.
            > Steiner, then the case is closed.

            Yes, that is the Rosicrucian perspective. We need an all round view,
            and sometimes we find one truth is opposed by an equally true
            opposite- like the proverbs, "Familiarity breeds contempt"
            and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

            > The solution to the third "teacher"
            > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
            > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
            > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
            > resurrection body.

            It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
            qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
            L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
            drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
            Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
            philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)

            I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
            think?

            Kind Regards,
            Bruce
          • joksu57
            ... I ... and ... Joksu writes: Hello Bradford! Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your posts. Your writings have given me many new
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "holderlin66" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
              > As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I
              > will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
              > will be visiting my extended family in Norway.
              >
              > But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts.
              I
              > am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texas
              and
              > have been planning my wedding to take place next year near Crawford
              > Texas.
              >

              Joksu writes:

              Hello Bradford!

              Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your
              posts. Your writings have given me many new insights (and large
              amount of material to study).

              Meeting you would be really fine! By the way, just a couple of months
              ago I was in Norway (for the first time). We (my wife and two sons
              included) came with a ferry to Sweden, Umeå and drove from there to
              Mo i Rana, Central Norway. The landscape was very beautiful and the
              mountains were impressive; Finland is more of the "flatland-type".

              If you are really coming to somewhere in Scandinavia, just tell in
              advance about your schelude, so I can make possible arrangement
              concerning my summer vacation. Only one weekend is now reserved, in
              19.7.2003 we (my wife is also a fan of Wagner's music) will be in
              Savonlinna Opera Festival; we have already the tickets to "Tristan
              und Isolde". (This summer we saw there "Die Meistersinger von
              Nürnberg by Deutche Opern, a very good performance.)
              And congratulations in advance for your "wedding to come".

              > >
              Bradford wrote:
              > I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an inner
              > connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
              > relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
              > (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King
              Jr
              > in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience...

              Joksu writes:
              Your research concerning Buddhism and Mars sphere seems really
              interesting. Buddhism is in some sense the "highest" of the old
              religions, religions of the Holy Ghost. It can be a real gate to true
              christianity (which is sorely lacking nowadays). There is a saying in
              Christosophy that true christianity starts from the "Mars-initiation"
              or a Mars-experience. It can be (a bit poeticly) stated that in this
              phase "the sword is turned into a cross, then pushed into our own
              heart and when the selfish blood is bleeding away, we simultaniously
              can give the roses of love to our fellowmen".

              You mentioned Gandhi and I remember reading somewhere (though I may
              be mistaken) that Gandhi was inspired in his own actions by the
              general stike and the passive resistance, which happened in Finland
              1905. The Csar and mighty Russia backed from its oppressive acts
              after this "silent protest". Mr. Ervast said that without some minor
              conflicts, where some amount of violence was used, Finland could have
              gained its independence right away. It was the ideal of Mr. Ervast
              that Finland could have started its "career as an independent nation"
              without any army, trusting to spiritual powers and providence, and
              acting as an new example to the world. Unfortunately, time was not
              yet right for this "dream" to come true.

              I guess that more work is needed, where individuals can take the
              required steps towards something that Dr. Steiner refererred
              as "thinking with the heart". But also the "schooling" which happens
              in the "after-death" states is very important, when we think about
              the future.

              Bradford wrote:
              > Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal and
              I
              > would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.
              >

              Joksu writes:
              I really do appreciate your interest in Christosophy and Kalevala.
              (Sometimes earlier Danny said that he might read the "Kalevala-poems"
              this summer.) There are many interesting "mystery-pictures" in those
              old poems. E.g. in the "Sampo-poems" can be found out an attempt to
              build the resurrection body (sun-body). It failed, of course, as
              every attempt in this direction failed until Jesus Christ changed the
              course of history, but it was a nice try anyway!

              Warm Greetings
              Joksu
            • joksu57
              ... joksu writes: Hello Bruce! OK, but little background first. Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned to read french at the age of
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
                > Hi Joksu,
                > (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
                > > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)
                >
                > Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.
                >

                joksu writes:
                Hello Bruce!

                OK, but little background first.

                Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned
                to read french at the age of five or six and when he was twelve he
                was writing a comparable grammatic concerning nine different
                languages. So translating Dr. Steiner's answers was from this point
                of view, was an easy job for him.

                An other thing I want to point out, is that Mr. Ervast was a
                rather "shy" man. He said that it is painful for him to "expose"
                himself to the public. He didn't like any praise/attention to his
                personality and he never spoke publicly about any "special abilities"
                he might have; such things could only distract the attention away
                from the "main thing", the significance and teachings of Jesus
                Christ. So this episode is told by a student and a friend of Mr.
                Ervast, when PE was already dead (which happened in 1934).

                After his lecture cycle Dr. Steiner held a meeting, where he answered
                several questions. At least part of the questions were made by Mr.
                Ervast. Some of the answers of Dr. Steiner were quite long (& profoud)
                and he didn't divide them to several parts, but "told the whole
                story" and then waited for the translator to do his job. Mr. Ervast
                translated without hesitation even Dr. Steiner's longest answers to
                finnish language. This made quite an impression to RS and according a
                theosophical magazine from 1912 Dr. Steiner assured that he had never
                seen anything like this. Well, mayby RS was just polite and Mr.
                Ervast had exceptional memory, but there is an other explanation also.

                Mr. Ervast told later privately to a pupil and a friend of his that
                he "wrote down" the answers to "astral matter" and from "there"
                translated them. If that is the case, and when we remember
                the "clairvoyant powers" of Dr. Steiner, he could certainly make some
                interesting observations and so the amazement is justified.


                > > The solution to the third "teacher"
                > > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
                > > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
                > > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building
                the
                > > resurrection body.
                >
                Bruce wrote:
                > It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
                > qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
                > L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
                > drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
                > Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
                > philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)
                >
                > I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
                > think?
                >

                joksu writes:
                In this connection I surely share your uncomfortable feelings. About
                L.Ron Hubbard and his Scientology I think that I use the old
                principle: "If you don't have anything nice to say about a person, be
                then quiet." So I have nothing to say about Hubbard! What makes
                scientology dangerous, lies in the fact that is has some small pieces
                of thruth incorporated to its web of lies.

                There can easily be something misleading, when one talks about the
                drive to survive. I don't approve the idea to reduce "everything" to
                this point. In an earlier message I have delt with this question from
                an other angle: (I really love it, when sometimes I can copy/paste
                and it's not necessary to "translate" all the time!)

                "It is said that mankind has five "enemies": ignorance, selfishness,
                sickness, poverty and death. It can also be said that selfishness
                is "the worst sickness" and death is the "greatest
                poverty". So we can also speak about three enemies and there's a
                correspondense to our thinking, feeling and "will-functions". "

                Warm Regards
                Joksu
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