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Masonry/Reuss

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  • fireofthe12
    Dr. Steiner had correspondence with many occultists of his time. In the end I think he just ignored the letters from Theodore Reuss. I did read on one list
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 19, 2002
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      Dr. Steiner had correspondence with many occultists of his time. In
      the end I think he just ignored the letters from Theodore Reuss. I
      did read on one list that the name "Reuss" was edited out in one
      edition Steiner's letters.
      He also met Nietzsche, but that doesn't mean he agreed with
      everything Nietzsche wrote.
      http://www.goetheanum.ch/rsteiner_e/biography.html

      When you have a message, a tale to tell, you need an audience which
      will be able to understand it- this was Steiner's problem. At one
      stage he spoke to the students of Giordano Bruno, later he found a
      better audience in the Theosophical Society. Another prominent group-
      who were there at the founding of the TS- were of course the Masons.

      Steiner gave lectures on Masonry in 1905. He made it clear then, that
      he was speaking as a non-Mason, but in November of that year, he and
      Marie von Sivers, received a warrant, a diploma, to practice the
      higher degrees of Masonry:

      http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/prkoenig/mm1.htm

      "[On the 24th of November 1905 Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925) and Marie
      von Sivers (1867-1948), became members of MM, and received a warrant
      to work the 30°, 67°, and 89° from Reuss on the 3rd of January 1906.
      [Yarker disagreed with Reuss and Encausse's activities in France, and
      nominated George Lagrèze in their place on the 9th of September 1909
      [15]]."

      MM stands Memphis Misraim- Misraim being the ancient name for Egypt.
      It is an occult fact that the new is grafted on to the old, and this
      is what Steiner was looking to do. "The new moss grows at the foot of
      the ancient tree."

      Now how do we know that the above is correct?- because Steiner says
      so in his autobiography:


      http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA028/TSoML/GA028_c36.html:

      "Some years after the beginning of the activity in the Theosophical
      Society, Marie von Sievers and I were entrusted by certain persons
      with the leadership of a society similar to others which have been
      maintained in preservation of the ancient symbolism and cultural
      ceremonies that embody the "ancient wisdom." I never thought in the
      remotest degree of working in the spirit of such a society.
      Everything anthroposophic should and must spring from its own sources
      of knowledge and truth.....

      "And so wherever possible I also favoured the linking of the newly
      given to the historically existent. I therefore took the diploma of
      the society referred to, which belonged to the stream represented by
      Yarker. It had the forms of Free Masonry of the so-called high
      degrees; but I took nothing else – absolutely nothing – from this
      society except the merely formal authorization, in historic
      succession, to direct a symbolic-cultural activity.

      "Everything set forth in content in the "ceremonies" which were
      employed in the institution were without historic dependence upon any
      tradition whatever. In the formal granting of the diploma only that
      was fostered which resulted in the symbolizing of anthroposophic
      knowledge.

      "And our purpose in this matter was to meet the needs of the members.
      In elaborating the ideas in which the knowledge of spirit is given in
      a veiled form, the effort is made to arrive at something which speaks
      directly to perception, to the heart; and such purposes I wished to
      serve. If the invitation from the society in question had not come to
      me, I should have undertaken the direction of a symbolic-cultural
      activity without any historic connection.

      "But this did not create a "secret society." Whoever entered into
      this practice was told in the clearest possible manner that he was
      not dealing with any "order," but that as participant in ceremonial
      forms he would experience a sort of visualization, demonstration of
      spiritual
      knowledge."
      end of quote

      Dr. Steiner mentions John Yarker in his autobiography as well-
      a "respected mason" I think he calls him. John Yarker was indeed a
      powerful learned man- you can find some of his articles online.

      So Steiner undertook various Masonic/Rosicrucian type
      ceremonies/rituals:
      A venue:
      Basement Hall of the Theosophical Society in Stuttgart, Germany.
      http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/artgallery/P21-Stuttgart.html
      Art from the Hall
      http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/artgallery/P30-Stuttgart.html

      Some folk are a little embarrassed about these Masonic connections.
      So far the "History of the Cognitive Cultic Section" has not been
      published, though it was translated into English by the late John
      Woods. Last I heard, Paul Emberton was going to publish it. The
      Anthroposophic Press has decided against it. The "History of the
      Cognitive Cultic Section" details Dr. Steiner's ritual work- I have
      posted one of Steiner's Masonic rituals before.

      As far as the OTO is concerned, you must remember that this was a
      different organisation before Crowley took it over. In fact, I know
      that even today there is an OTO today that has nothing to do with
      Crowley.
      More on Crowley:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/55
      Phoney masonry- Crowley
      http://users.erols.com/solequis/secret_societies/phoneymasonry.htm

      Dr. Felkin, an original member of the Golden Dawn - later to form the
      Stella Matutina offshoot - was a student of Dr. Steiner. He worked in
      a different way from Steiner, but some of his students became
      anthroposophists. A famous one is Edith Maryon, a very talented
      sculptress, who at one time saved Steiner's life when he fell from
      some scaffolding. The anthroposophical work in Havelock North, New
      Zealand was seeded from Dr. Felkin's group (who arrived there first
      and set up a temple- the "first in the Southern Hemisphere".)

      Greetings,
      Bruce



      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualscience
    • joksu57
      ... group- ... Masons. ... that ... and ... warrant ... and ... 1909 ... this ... of ... sources ... by ... any ... members. ... in ... speaks ... to ... Joksu
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 20, 2002
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        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
        > Dr. Steiner had correspondence with many occultists of his time. In
        > the end I think he just ignored the letters from Theodore Reuss. I
        > did read on one list that the name "Reuss" was edited out in one
        > edition Steiner's letters.
        > He also met Nietzsche, but that doesn't mean he agreed with
        > everything Nietzsche wrote.
        > http://www.goetheanum.ch/rsteiner_e/biography.html
        >
        > When you have a message, a tale to tell, you need an audience which
        > will be able to understand it- this was Steiner's problem. At one
        > stage he spoke to the students of Giordano Bruno, later he found a
        > better audience in the Theosophical Society. Another prominent
        group-
        > who were there at the founding of the TS- were of course the
        Masons.
        >
        > Steiner gave lectures on Masonry in 1905. He made it clear then,
        that
        > he was speaking as a non-Mason, but in November of that year, he
        and
        > Marie von Sivers, received a warrant, a diploma, to practice the
        > higher degrees of Masonry:
        >
        > http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/prkoenig/mm1.htm
        >
        > "[On the 24th of November 1905 Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925) and Marie
        > von Sivers (1867-1948), became members of MM, and received a
        warrant
        > to work the 30°, 67°, and 89° from Reuss on the 3rd of January 1906.
        > [Yarker disagreed with Reuss and Encausse's activities in France,
        and
        > nominated George Lagrèze in their place on the 9th of September
        1909
        > [15]]."
        >
        > MM stands Memphis Misraim- Misraim being the ancient name for Egypt.
        > It is an occult fact that the new is grafted on to the old, and
        this
        > is what Steiner was looking to do. "The new moss grows at the foot
        of
        > the ancient tree."
        >
        > Now how do we know that the above is correct?- because Steiner says
        > so in his autobiography:
        >
        >
        > http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA028/TSoML/GA028_c36.html:
        >
        > "Some years after the beginning of the activity in the Theosophical
        > Society, Marie von Sievers and I were entrusted by certain persons
        > with the leadership of a society similar to others which have been
        > maintained in preservation of the ancient symbolism and cultural
        > ceremonies that embody the "ancient wisdom." I never thought in the
        > remotest degree of working in the spirit of such a society.
        > Everything anthroposophic should and must spring from its own
        sources
        > of knowledge and truth.....
        >
        > "And so wherever possible I also favoured the linking of the newly
        > given to the historically existent. I therefore took the diploma of
        > the society referred to, which belonged to the stream represented
        by
        > Yarker. It had the forms of Free Masonry of the so-called high
        > degrees; but I took nothing else – absolutely nothing – from this
        > society except the merely formal authorization, in historic
        > succession, to direct a symbolic-cultural activity.
        >
        > "Everything set forth in content in the "ceremonies" which were
        > employed in the institution were without historic dependence upon
        any
        > tradition whatever. In the formal granting of the diploma only that
        > was fostered which resulted in the symbolizing of anthroposophic
        > knowledge.
        >
        > "And our purpose in this matter was to meet the needs of the
        members.
        > In elaborating the ideas in which the knowledge of spirit is given
        in
        > a veiled form, the effort is made to arrive at something which
        speaks
        > directly to perception, to the heart; and such purposes I wished to
        > serve. If the invitation from the society in question had not come
        to
        > me, I should have undertaken the direction of a symbolic-cultural
        > activity without any historic connection.
        >
        > "But this did not create a "secret society." Whoever entered into
        > this practice was told in the clearest possible manner that he was
        > not dealing with any "order," but that as participant in ceremonial
        > forms he would experience a sort of visualization, demonstration of
        > spiritual
        > knowledge."
        > end of quote
        >
        Joksu writes:

        Hi Bruce! And thanks for provided material!

        The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
        especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
        Rosenkreuz"-stream. The legend of Hiram Abif is central in the Master
        Mason degree of freemasonry. Dr. Steiner had dealt with this "story"
        in his Templelegend (perhaps somebody knows other writings about the
        subject by RS?). Max Heindel has written more extensively about the
        legend and the "Cain-Abel" –problem in his "Freemasonry and
        Catholicism"; available in net:
        http://www.rosicrucian.com/frc/frceng01.htm . Perhaps some concepts
        are there too "clear cut and simplified" (not to even speak about the
        too simple Lucifer-concepts), but there are many interesting points
        though, especially if one knows at least the three basic rituals of
        freemasonry (the blue masonry, "dedicated" to John the Babtist and
        St. John).

        King Solomon (an Abel-line magician) and Hiram Abif (Cain-line
        occultist) were together building the temple of Solomon. Solomon
        could not build the temple by himself; he needed the help of a Master
        Architect, Hiram Abif. There was a plan of reconciliation between the
        Sons of Seth (after the death of Abel Seth become the "father" in
        this line) and the Sons of Cain. They both tried to win the favour of
        the Queen of Sheba, which Heindel interprets as the composite soul of
        humanity. It is not possible that only one of them could marry the
        Queen of Sheba. Because of jealosy and self-seeking around this
        matter the temple building fails, when Hiram is making his
        masterpiece; casting the molten sea. After that incident Hiram Abif
        is soon killed and the Word is lost. (Only HA knew the Word and there
        is still used a substitute word in the third degree ritual.)

        In the process of casting the molten sea Hiram Abif must step into
        the fire and there he meets Cain.
        M. Heindel writes: ""You, Hiram," said Cain, "are destined to die
        with hopes unfulfilled, but many sons will be born to the widow and
        keep your memory green through the ages, and at length one will come
        who is greater than you. You shall not wake till the Lion of Judah
        raises you with the powerful grip of His paw. This day you have
        received your BAPTISM OF FIRE, but He shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER
        AND WITH SPIRIT; you, and every son of the widow, who will come to
        Him. Greater than Solomon, he will build a new city and a Temple
        wherein the nations may worship. The Sons of Cain and the Sons of
        Seth shall there meet in Peace, at the sea of glass.

        And as Melchisedec, King of Salem (Salem means Peace,) and Priest of
        God, ministered to Abraham, the father of nations, when mankind was
        yet in its infancy, so shall this new Light combine in Himself the
        dual office of King and Priest after the order of Melchisedec. He
        shall judge the nations with THE LAW OF LOVE and to him that
        overcometh will be given a White Stone with a name that will serve as
        passport to the temple. There he may meet the king FACE TO FACE.

        Hiram was again conducted to the surface of the earth and as he
        walked from the scene of his shattered ambition, the conspirators set
        upon and fatally wounded him; but before he expired, he hid the
        hammer and disc upon which he had inscribed the Word. This was never
        found until ages later when Hiram, "the widow's Son," was reborn as
        Lazarus and became the friend and pupil of the Lion of Judah, who
        raised him from death through initiation. When the hammer was found
        it had the shape of a CROSS, and the disc had become a ROSE.
        Therefore Hiram took his place among the immortals under the new and
        symbolical name

        Christian Rosenkreuz.

        He founded the Order of Temple-Builders which bears his name; in that
        Order aspiring souls are still instructed how to fuse the base metals
        and make the White Stone." [end of Heidel's text]

        (Dr. Steiner has told about the two Jesus children and I have
        sometimes wondered the connection between them and the Cain-Abel –
        dilemma; the other child is on the solomon-line?)

        Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry. After
        the work and teachings of e.g. Dr. Steiner we can now understand that
        the question is really about the Word, Logos, Christ and St. John
        tells us about it in his evangelium. There is a "christian degree" in
        freemasonry, the 18:th degree (at least in the Scottish Rite),
        Knighthood of the Rosy Cross or Chapter Rose-Croix. And in some
        rituals there are clear links to the words of St.John. The
        spesific "word" given in this degree is INRI and including the usual
        meaning I have found about 15 explanations to this INRI. This one is
        common: "Igne Natura Renovatur Integra" (Nature is completely renewed
        by fire) but after the Mystery of Golgotha the following is also
        interesting (if we can accept the translation): "Intra Nobis Regnum
        Iehova" (The Kingdom of God is within us).

        Dr. Steiner is fine exponent in this "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
        Rosenkreuz"-stream:
        1) Cain was a farmer and culture "stems" from agriculture - compare:
        all the cultural impulses of RS and biodynamic farmin especially!
        2) Hiram Abif was temple builder and architect – compare: who
        designed Goetheanum? (This one is easy!)
        3) Lasarus/St.John was the "initiated one" in the Transfiguration of
        Jesus Christ. It is natural duty (dharma) in this stream to tell
        about the spiritual and occult significance of the life of Christ
        Jesus – and that is exactly what Dr. Steiner did.
        4) In the initiation of Lazarus there was a "change in the mysteries
        in the invisible world" and this was later known as "the rosicrucian
        path" – compare e.g.: Dr. Steiner's book: "Wie erlangt man
        Erkenntnisse der höheren Welten".

        And then there's as a bonus "Die Philosophie der Freiheit" and many
        other things! (sorry about the german names of the books, I don't
        have the exact english names at my disposal right now).

        So, I would have been very surprised, if there haven't been any
        connection between Dr. Steiner and freemasonry. All comments are
        welcomed around this very interesting and deep subject. (I have
        recently studied some aspects of freemasonry; so this explains my
        interest here.)

        Warm Regards: Joksu
      • fireofthe12
        Hello Joksu, Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study anthroposophy- and speak
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 27, 2002
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          Hello Joksu,
          Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
          theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
          anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
          anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm talking
          about the Adyar TS BTW.


          >
          > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
          > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
          > Rosenkreuz"-stream.

          These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of any
          lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between Master
          C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
          this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because in
          one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he talks
          about Father C.R. being Hiram.

          > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry. After
          > the work and teachings of e.g.

          According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
          ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division of
          the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
          nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
          societies were matriarchal.

          In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex. This
          will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
          future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
          connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.

          This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.

          See Steiner's The Temple Legend.

          Hearty Greetings,
          Bruce
        • Bill N
          Is that a stream similiar to/includes/intersects the Elias, John (Lazurus), Raphael, and Novalis stream? Bill ... From: fireofthe12
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 27, 2002
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            Is that a stream similiar to/includes/intersects the Elias, John (Lazurus),
            Raphael, and Novalis stream?

            Bill

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@...>
            To: <anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:31 PM
            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Masonry/Reuss


            > Hello Joksu,
            > Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
            > theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
            > anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
            > anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm talking
            > about the Adyar TS BTW.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
            > > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
            > > Rosenkreuz"-stream.
            >
            > These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of any
            > lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between Master
            > C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
            > this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because in
            > one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he talks
            > about Father C.R. being Hiram.
            >
            > > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry. After
            > > the work and teachings of e.g.
            >
            > According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
            > ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division of
            > the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
            > nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
            > societies were matriarchal.
            >
            > In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex. This
            > will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
            > future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
            > connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.
            >
            > This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.
            >
            > See Steiner's The Temple Legend.
            >
            > Hearty Greetings,
            > Bruce
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
            > Unsubscribe:
            > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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          • jla
            If I recall, the CRC connection can be easily inferred from lecture on Lazarus in the Gospel of St.John According to the Other Gospels. I may be mistaken on
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 28, 2002
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              If I recall, the CRC connection can be easily inferred from lecture on Lazarus in the
              Gospel of St.John According to the Other Gospels. I may be mistaken on this cycle but not to the association. Lazarus was the first person to recieve the first great Initiation and it came through Christ.
               
              Jeff
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:31 PM
              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Masonry/Reuss

              Hello Joksu,
                          Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
              theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
              anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
              anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm talking
              about the Adyar TS BTW.


              >             
              > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
              > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
              > Rosenkreuz"-stream.

              These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of any
              lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between Master
              C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
              this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because in
              one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he talks
              about Father C.R. being Hiram.

              > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry. After
              > the work and teachings of e.g.

              According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
              ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division of
              the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
              nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
              societies were matriarchal.

              In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex. This
              will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
              future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
              connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.

              This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.

              See Steiner's The Temple Legend.

              Hearty Greetings,
              Bruce






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            • joksu57
              ... talking ... Joksu writes: Hi Bruce! And thanks for your interest. I m not an antroposophical antroposophist (whatever that means), that s for sure! Well,
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 30, 2002
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                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
                > Hello Joksu,
                > Are a theosophical anthroposophist or anthroposophical
                > theosophist? It seems to me you can be a theosophist and study
                > anthroposophy- and speak from the podium etc. But to be an
                > anthroposophist and study theosophy is a different story. I'm
                talking
                > about the Adyar TS BTW.
                >

                Joksu writes:
                Hi Bruce! And thanks for your interest.

                I'm not an antroposophical antroposophist (whatever that means),
                that's for sure! Well, you asked for it (classifications) and here it
                comes (a little warning; this needs a little longer story, even
                though everything is "simplified" to bare bones )!

                In the early seventies when I studied the books of HPB, I thought
                this was the best "explanation" (worldview) I have read so far.
                Perhaps, in some sense, I was a theosophist then, but I never joined
                any formal theosophical society. Then a bit later I bumbed into
                the "basic" books of RS (PoF excluded) and got more excited: this is
                clearer and better than anything I've met before. I e.g. writed down
                large passages from the "How to get knowledge from higher worlds" (a
                library book) and meditated according those instructions in that book.

                A bit later on I read (many times, of course) PoF and this was a very
                powerful experience. This had some outer consiquences also; I decided
                to start studying theoretical philosophy in a university.
                (This "academic philosophy" was a disappointment after PoF,
                naturally, but the history of philosophy was interesting, though.) So
                I was some sort of an antroposophist then, but I didn't join any
                antroposophical society; I only studied by myself.

                In the year 1980 I found the teachings of Pekka Ervast (a local
                library had some sixty of his books.) Now I must tell something about
                this spiritual teacher.

                Mr. Ervast was born 26 December 1875 and he had a powerful Christ-
                experience in waking consciousness 1896, when he was nearly 21 years
                old (but he started talking publicly about this and also other
                experiences, when he was forty). In the beginning of 1900-century Mr.
                Ervast became the president of the TS (Adyar) of Finland. Later PE
                (as he was usually called) invited Dr. Steiner to give lectures in
                Finland and in 1912 RS came. In a "question-meeting" Mr. Ervast
                translated Dr. Steiner's long and profound answers to finnish
                language. (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
                meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)

                Dr. Steiner and Mr. Ervast had deep discussions and RS suggested that
                they could have co-operation in the future, but then came
                the "Krishnamurti-episode", founding of AP and WW I. Mr. Ervast
                stayed in TS (altough in the Christ Event, the "Krishnamurti-episode"
                and in many other questions PE shared the views of Dr. Steiner), when
                Dr. Steiner left, but many theosophist left the TS in Finland and
                follewed Dr. Steiner. So the antroposophy in Finland benefited also
                from the srong work done by Mr. Ervast, who was from the beginning of
                the century working exclusively as a writer, lecturer and leader of
                TS in Finland.

                In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TS
                (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
                organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
                called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".

                Mr. Ervast never stressed the differences between his and HPB's
                teachings, though he "wondered" some expressions used by HPB. Ervast
                has written that it is easier to understand the real value of true
                christianity after one knows other religions. So the original
                theosophy could have served as a gate to the greater mysteries,
                Christ-mysteries. PE also continued to use the "old theosophical
                concepts", whenever that was possible.

                There is much common with Dr. Steiner's teachings; perhaps one of the
                main
                differences lies in the fact that teachings of Jesus Christ are more
                incorporated to Christosophy, not only the meaning of the Golgotha
                Mystery. By this I mean e.g. that the awakening of the chakras is
                linked to the new commandments given in the Sermon on the mount
                (=moral virtues), the four
                etheric forces and four essential requirements (or qualities, which
                RS deals with in his book "How to get..") are linked to eight
                beatitudes, which are taken as
                four pares and so on.

                Trying to say something intelligible in a few lines about Mr.
                Ervast's teachings is a task which is probably doomed to fail. If
                someone wants to take a closer look, there are couple of books
                available in english, though. "The Esoteric School of Jesus" by Blue
                Dolphin Publishing is printed in USA and gives one aspect to the
                teachings of Jesus Christ. (That book is written in "TS-time" 1916.)
                An other book (by Blue Dolphin) is called "The Key to Kalevala". The
                most "important" book in some sense, "The Sermon on the Mount or the
                Key to Christianity" (author's translations) is probably not
                available in US.

                So, back to my story. When in 1980 I started reading the books of Mr.
                Ervast, I was annoyed in the beginning. I had a feeling: "Why is he
                teaching all this, when Dr. Steiner anyway knows the subject much
                better". But when I studied more, then in some point I got annoyed to
                RS, because my initial attitude was shattered (I guess that it is a
                common thing to project our own shortcomings to spiritual teachers).
                After "clearing" my own feelings I was happy to have more inspiring
                material to study. Then I also found out that I was even more
                attached to the "stream", which Mr. Ervast represented.

                Now I can give an answer to your question: I am an antroposophical
                christosophist or a christosophist studying antroposophy (and using
                theosophical terminology)! What kind of a story does all this make
                up? (Well, I don't know either.) On the other hand I don't give much
                weight to "classifications". Seeking thruth is more interesting than
                seeking names.

                It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not the
                proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending my
                posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all. Perhaps
                the "spiritual science" –list would have been more appropriate. When
                I first studied these two forums, this list seemed to be more
                interesting: "better" topics and the discussion was
                more "consentrated".

                >
                > >
                > > The connection between Dr. Steiner and masonry is interesting;
                > > especially when we think about the "Cain-Hiram Abif-
                Lazarus/St.John-
                > > Rosenkreuz"-stream.
                >

                Bruce wrote:
                > These connections you make are not so obvious. I am not aware of
                any
                > lecture where Dr. Steiner makes a connection directly between
                Master
                > C.R. and Lazarus. I believe there is a private letter where he says
                > this is so. You can work it out from the lectures however, because
                in
                > one he talks about Lazarus being Hiram Abiff and in another he
                talks
                > about Father C.R. being Hiram.
                >

                joksu writes:

                It is true that Dr. Steiner gives only some hints around this matter
                (at least in those papers which I have read). In one of my earlier
                messages ( number 3660: "This Bradford's text reminds me of a lecture
                named "Cain", held by an eminent occultist in the year 1931. I want
                to share some insights, which have stemmed mainly from this
                lecture"...) I referred to the lecture "Cain" held by Mr. Ervast in
                1931 and in this lecture the "Cain-Hiram Abif-Lazarus/St.John-
                Rosenkreutz" –connection is made clear. Later, to my surprise, I
                found out that Mr. Heindel has also told about this "stream" and
                these connections.

                > > Searching the Lost Word is one central theme in freemasonry.
                After
                > > the work and teachings of e.g.
                >
                Bruce wrote:
                > According to Dr. Steiner the Lost Word is kriyashakti. This is the
                > ability we once had to procreate by ourselves (before the division
                of
                > the sexes). The original hermaphrodite human being was feminine in
                > nature, indeed, even after the separation of the sexes the Lemurian
                > societies were matriarchal.
                >
                > In the future Man will again procreate without the need for sex.
                This
                > will be through the agency of the larynx- hence the Lost Word. This
                > future human being will be masculine in nature and even now the
                > connection is there in the change of the voice in puberty.
                >
                > This explains why the Masons were/are a men only club.
                >
                > See Steiner's The Temple Legend.

                joksu writes:
                There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And I
                don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.
                Steiner, then the case is closed. See e.g. message 3378 / the wedding
                at Cana, where the interpretation I refer to is originally given by
                Mr. Ervast in his lectures about the evangelium of St.John. It is a
                different one compared to that which Dr. Steiner gives in his own
                lectures, and (IMHO) in no way inferior.

                "(See John 2:1-12) There are six stone jars mentioned and then there
                must be the seventh "bowl" also. The six "lower" chakras are filled
                with pure feelings (water), but it is the seventh (at the top of the
                head) which makes the "miracle". All chakras are now full of
                spiritual activity (wine) and the steward (the Initiator) was
                amazed:"you have kept the best wine till now". In the "old covenant"
                the chakras had to be awakened starting from the bottom, the base
                chakra, with the help of kundalini, (the serpent-power) and the head-
                chakra was the last one activated. The Initiator understood that
                something exceptional had now occurred and in some sense this is a
                decription of the initiation of Jesus Christ. The crown chakra, which
                gives the connection to the "Kindom of God", is activated first and
                from this chakra the "spiritual wine" is poured to other chakras. …"

                So I see no problem connecting the Lost Word and Logos, Cosmic
                Christ, Word, especially when we think about the connection between
                Hiram Abif and St. John. The procreation without the need for sex is
                not possible without the help of Christ.

                It is said that there are three "great teachers" in humanity: hunger,
                sexuality and death (connected to the instinct to survive). We must
                learn to work that we can get the "daily bread". (the condition after
                the "Paradise-state"). This can also be linked to our intellectual
                abilities, which must be developed in this "working process" and in a
                way, this stage can be linked to the "Holy Ghost".
                Sexuality must eventually "be redeemed" through pure love, through
                the love of Christ (Son). The solution to the third "teacher"
                death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
                won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
                aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
                resurrection body.

                From this point of view, the answer that Dr. Steiner gave to the Lost
                Word and linking this "Lost Word/question about procreation" to
                Christ, the real Word, are not necessarily so far from each other.

                Best Regards
                Joksu
              • holderlin66
                As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I will be visiting my
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 31, 2002
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                  As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I
                  will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
                  will be visiting my extended family in Norway.

                  But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts. I
                  am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texas and
                  have been planning my wedding to take place next year near Crawford
                  Texas.

                  My interest is always illuminated by your posts. I can't speak for
                  Bruce, nor would I ever want to, "Bruce" as an individual also
                  awakens some of the same deeper sense of research that inspires my
                  own work.

                  I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an inner
                  connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
                  relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
                  (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King Jr
                  in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience. In
                  these individuals and many others I have traced including, Erasmus;
                  St. Francis; Loyola; Swedenborg even Herman Hesse, I have been able
                  to track Buddhistic studies that connect to how Monastaries in the
                  Devachan, after our Earth life has been completed, bring us to a kind
                  of Tibet on Mars. Individuals incarnate again with lessons learned in
                  their Buddhist and St. Francis experiences on Mars and we can see
                  exactly how these Mars experiences have raised a new reality for
                  social life that have changed and continues to change Earthly culture.

                  In Oliver Stone and all the the VietNam War veterans I know, they
                  will be experiencing an illumination and a new path of learning in
                  the Mars Sphere of the Devachan when they complete this incarnation.
                  This means that thousands of new souls like Gandhi and Martin Luther
                  King Jr. will bring totally new but observable forces on their return
                  incarnations into Earth. We will be able to see and understand these
                  events in relation to the Monastaries run by Buddha and St.Francis on
                  Mars.

                  What I find so 'cutting edge' so worthy of news, is that, these
                  events can be followed as efforts through Human extensions into the
                  cosmos, new human history lessons that must be shaped for the study
                  of society and education in the near future. In other words these
                  words and insights given out of our esoteric schooling apply directly
                  to current life mysteries. There are hundreds of ways to bringing
                  them to light for everyone.

                  Joksu you also mentioned the spilling of the vessels, six containers
                  that should have been 7 related to the Chakras. It is most
                  illuminating to go to the text by Christian Rosenkreuz, the Chymical
                  Wedding and see the fountain that is in the Venus Mystery. It is a
                  picture of the Female/Male dove bound unity in the chakra fields of
                  nature and creation. I often talk about the dove and the Sea Horse as
                  revealing this spiral shift of the sexes above in the wing world and
                  below in the sea world. Humanity stands in the middle as the balanced
                  micro system with a rainbow balance between limbs, shoulder blades,
                  Dorsel fins, in nature.

                  So, yes, research and understanding the Christ event, for me and a
                  few of those I see on this list, reflect profound current events and
                  revelations to study on just how Earth will Change; What Gold is;
                  What the Old Moon and the gnome Alberich did when he denied Love and
                  bound himself only to matter and Light in Earth evolution, and its
                  relation to the whispered Equation that the old gnome whispered to
                  Einstein E=MC2. What is missing is the Earth revelation of Love in
                  the equation. It is so current as to grasp that by creating nuclear
                  waste we are creating Old Moon matter that cannot go to the Jupiter
                  evolution with us. This can be traced with clarity. It includes
                  Wagner, Tolkein and Buddha to point out through Humans, the profound
                  mystery of Earth, Christ and Gold. Our terrible secret is that we all
                  become the Gemut of the new Christed Gold Standard in our Souls.
                  Those that know how to think that is.

                  But it requires New Thinking and here is where we are sorely hurting
                  after all the years of debate about society and thinking and Monism
                  that there are very few who can grasp the thinking field in
                  Consciousness Soul pictures and education enough, so that we can
                  raise the bar, as it were. We need many who raise the thinking field
                  to a new level above the tattered forces of the Intellectual Soul.
                  Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal and I
                  would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.

                  It is always a pleasure hearing from you and so manny of those who
                  are working with real thinking on the issue of the Christ Event.

                  Bradford
                • fireofthe12
                  Hi Joksu, (There is an interesting story connected to this question- ... Do tell- the listmembers are all ears. ... There was some sort of Rosicrucian
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 31, 2002
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                    Hi Joksu,
                    (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
                    > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)

                    Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.


                    > In 1920 the conflict (different views) between Mr. Ervast and TS
                    > (=Annie Besant) became too acute and Mr.Ervast formed a new
                    > organisation called "The Rose-Cross of Finland" and
                    > called his teachings "Rose-Cross theosophy and/or Christosophy".

                    There was some sort of Rosicrucian Anthroposophical Society in the US
                    as well.



                    >Seeking thruth is more interesting than
                    > seeking names.

                    That's right, the name is unimportant. Dr. Steiner once said that it
                    wouldn't matter if the Society changed its name every week.

                    >
                    > It occured to me that if you, Bruce, think that this forum is not
                    the
                    > proper place for my posts, please say so and I will stop sending my
                    > posts here; this is a "Steiner-list" after all.

                    No, it is not a "Steiner" list but an anthroposophical list, "which
                    covers" the work of Rudolf Steiner. There have been lots of
                    anthroposophical teachers. You have placed some very good studies
                    before us here, so don't stop.

                    >
                    > joksu writes:
                    > There are several "keys"/explanations to symbols, legends etc. And
                    I
                    > don't like the idea that when we state one explanation given by Dr.
                    > Steiner, then the case is closed.

                    Yes, that is the Rosicrucian perspective. We need an all round view,
                    and sometimes we find one truth is opposed by an equally true
                    opposite- like the proverbs, "Familiarity breeds contempt"
                    and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

                    > The solution to the third "teacher"
                    > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
                    > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
                    > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building the
                    > resurrection body.

                    It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
                    qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
                    L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
                    drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
                    Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
                    philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)

                    I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
                    think?

                    Kind Regards,
                    Bruce
                  • joksu57
                    ... I ... and ... Joksu writes: Hello Bradford! Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your posts. Your writings have given me many new
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "holderlin66" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                      > As Always, your posts out of Finland have real substance for me. I
                      > will probably be in Norway next summer, would love to meet you. I
                      > will be visiting my extended family in Norway.
                      >
                      > But besides meeting you or anything like that, I admire your posts.
                      I
                      > am in the far west right now. I am right now in Texas, Waco Texas
                      and
                      > have been planning my wedding to take place next year near Crawford
                      > Texas.
                      >

                      Joksu writes:

                      Hello Bradford!

                      Thanks for your kind words; I can say the same thing about your
                      posts. Your writings have given me many new insights (and large
                      amount of material to study).

                      Meeting you would be really fine! By the way, just a couple of months
                      ago I was in Norway (for the first time). We (my wife and two sons
                      included) came with a ferry to Sweden, Umeå and drove from there to
                      Mo i Rana, Central Norway. The landscape was very beautiful and the
                      mountains were impressive; Finland is more of the "flatland-type".

                      If you are really coming to somewhere in Scandinavia, just tell in
                      advance about your schelude, so I can make possible arrangement
                      concerning my summer vacation. Only one weekend is now reserved, in
                      19.7.2003 we (my wife is also a fan of Wagner's music) will be in
                      Savonlinna Opera Festival; we have already the tickets to "Tristan
                      und Isolde". (This summer we saw there "Die Meistersinger von
                      Nürnberg by Deutche Opern, a very good performance.)
                      And congratulations in advance for your "wedding to come".

                      > >
                      Bradford wrote:
                      > I have been following closely, these past couple of weeks, an inner
                      > connection with Buddhism in the Mars sphere. It has brought me into
                      > relation with inspirations from Buddha/Wotan in "Lord of the Rings"
                      > (the current movie and book) as well as Gandhi; Martin Luther King
                      Jr
                      > in America and Henry David Thoreau in his Civil Disobedience...

                      Joksu writes:
                      Your research concerning Buddhism and Mars sphere seems really
                      interesting. Buddhism is in some sense the "highest" of the old
                      religions, religions of the Holy Ghost. It can be a real gate to true
                      christianity (which is sorely lacking nowadays). There is a saying in
                      Christosophy that true christianity starts from the "Mars-initiation"
                      or a Mars-experience. It can be (a bit poeticly) stated that in this
                      phase "the sword is turned into a cross, then pushed into our own
                      heart and when the selfish blood is bleeding away, we simultaniously
                      can give the roses of love to our fellowmen".

                      You mentioned Gandhi and I remember reading somewhere (though I may
                      be mistaken) that Gandhi was inspired in his own actions by the
                      general stike and the passive resistance, which happened in Finland
                      1905. The Csar and mighty Russia backed from its oppressive acts
                      after this "silent protest". Mr. Ervast said that without some minor
                      conflicts, where some amount of violence was used, Finland could have
                      gained its independence right away. It was the ideal of Mr. Ervast
                      that Finland could have started its "career as an independent nation"
                      without any army, trusting to spiritual powers and providence, and
                      acting as an new example to the world. Unfortunately, time was not
                      yet right for this "dream" to come true.

                      I guess that more work is needed, where individuals can take the
                      required steps towards something that Dr. Steiner refererred
                      as "thinking with the heart". But also the "schooling" which happens
                      in the "after-death" states is very important, when we think about
                      the future.

                      Bradford wrote:
                      > Joseph Campbell and your Christosophy interest me a great deal and
                      I
                      > would love to read the secrets of the Kalavala.
                      >

                      Joksu writes:
                      I really do appreciate your interest in Christosophy and Kalevala.
                      (Sometimes earlier Danny said that he might read the "Kalevala-poems"
                      this summer.) There are many interesting "mystery-pictures" in those
                      old poems. E.g. in the "Sampo-poems" can be found out an attempt to
                      build the resurrection body (sun-body). It failed, of course, as
                      every attempt in this direction failed until Jesus Christ changed the
                      course of history, but it was a nice try anyway!

                      Warm Greetings
                      Joksu
                    • joksu57
                      ... joksu writes: Hello Bruce! OK, but little background first. Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned to read french at the age of
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 1, 2002
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                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "fireofthe12" <fireofthe12@y...> wrote:
                        > Hi Joksu,
                        > (There is an interesting "story" connected to this question-
                        > > meeting, but probably it is too much "off-topic".)
                        >
                        > Do tell- the listmembers are all ears.
                        >

                        joksu writes:
                        Hello Bruce!

                        OK, but little background first.

                        Mr. Ervast had an exceptional talent in languages. E.g. he learned
                        to read french at the age of five or six and when he was twelve he
                        was writing a comparable grammatic concerning nine different
                        languages. So translating Dr. Steiner's answers was from this point
                        of view, was an easy job for him.

                        An other thing I want to point out, is that Mr. Ervast was a
                        rather "shy" man. He said that it is painful for him to "expose"
                        himself to the public. He didn't like any praise/attention to his
                        personality and he never spoke publicly about any "special abilities"
                        he might have; such things could only distract the attention away
                        from the "main thing", the significance and teachings of Jesus
                        Christ. So this episode is told by a student and a friend of Mr.
                        Ervast, when PE was already dead (which happened in 1934).

                        After his lecture cycle Dr. Steiner held a meeting, where he answered
                        several questions. At least part of the questions were made by Mr.
                        Ervast. Some of the answers of Dr. Steiner were quite long (& profoud)
                        and he didn't divide them to several parts, but "told the whole
                        story" and then waited for the translator to do his job. Mr. Ervast
                        translated without hesitation even Dr. Steiner's longest answers to
                        finnish language. This made quite an impression to RS and according a
                        theosophical magazine from 1912 Dr. Steiner assured that he had never
                        seen anything like this. Well, mayby RS was just polite and Mr.
                        Ervast had exceptional memory, but there is an other explanation also.

                        Mr. Ervast told later privately to a pupil and a friend of his that
                        he "wrote down" the answers to "astral matter" and from "there"
                        translated them. If that is the case, and when we remember
                        the "clairvoyant powers" of Dr. Steiner, he could certainly make some
                        interesting observations and so the amazement is justified.


                        > > The solution to the third "teacher"
                        > > death&instinct to survive, lies in "winning the death" and it is
                        > > won "as a last enemy", as St.Paul states (connection to "Father-
                        > > aspect"). Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful example by building
                        the
                        > > resurrection body.
                        >
                        Bruce wrote:
                        > It is interesting that you talk of "survival" and these three
                        > qualities: Food, Sex and Death.
                        > L. Ron Hubbard thought you could boil all human drives down to the
                        > drive to survive. I noticed in the latest Phil Dick film "Minority
                        > Report", one of the founders of the precog system, mouths this same
                        > philosophy. (She's the one in the greenhouse.)
                        >
                        > I have always been uncomfortable with this philosophy- what do you
                        > think?
                        >

                        joksu writes:
                        In this connection I surely share your uncomfortable feelings. About
                        L.Ron Hubbard and his Scientology I think that I use the old
                        principle: "If you don't have anything nice to say about a person, be
                        then quiet." So I have nothing to say about Hubbard! What makes
                        scientology dangerous, lies in the fact that is has some small pieces
                        of thruth incorporated to its web of lies.

                        There can easily be something misleading, when one talks about the
                        drive to survive. I don't approve the idea to reduce "everything" to
                        this point. In an earlier message I have delt with this question from
                        an other angle: (I really love it, when sometimes I can copy/paste
                        and it's not necessary to "translate" all the time!)

                        "It is said that mankind has five "enemies": ignorance, selfishness,
                        sickness, poverty and death. It can also be said that selfishness
                        is "the worst sickness" and death is the "greatest
                        poverty". So we can also speak about three enemies and there's a
                        correspondense to our thinking, feeling and "will-functions". "

                        Warm Regards
                        Joksu
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