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Re: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... ******In fact, if you look at the Goetheanum glass windows, you ll see portrayals of Ahrimanic beings burying themselves in the netherworld below our
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 16, 2002
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      lightsearcher1@... writes:

      > My informal perspective – fully in accord
      > with prior discussions here – is that these
      > creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
      > Andreev's physically precise descriptions).
      >
      > Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
      > residing in a lower level of "physical"
      > – a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical –
      > than even where we ourselves physically
      > reside.
      >
      > I think this would comport with RS'
      > implicit/explicit statements about the
      > existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.
      >
      > Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
      > than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
      > types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
      > the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
      > described...including having some
      > physical effects in our domain.

      ******In fact, if you look at the Goetheanum glass windows, you'll see portrayals of Ahrimanic beings burying themselves in the 'netherworld" below our feet. The interior of the earth is completely different from what materialist philsophy would hold.... and not disconnected from us, or the sky.

      Starman
    • studioeditions2002
      I haven t read the book by Andreev but appreciate the post making so much clear from it... [I hope I am not repeating what may have discussed earlier by this
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 16, 2002
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        I haven't read the book by Andreev but appreciate the post making so
        much clear from it... [I hope I am not repeating what may have
        discussed earlier by this group.] I did read two books by Christopher
        O'Brien titled The Mysterious Valley and Enter the Valley, in which
        the author attempts to make sense of the cattle mutilations and other
        peculiar phenomena in the area of the San Luis Valley, which is in
        south & central Colorado, although he does not seem to be a Christian
        or an esoteric Christian. These mutilations are not peculiar to this
        area, but have occurred very frequently there. The cattle are found
        with the reproductive systems having been rapidly bored out and
        removed, as though with lasers. It has not occurred only with cattle;
        humans, including a teen-aged girl, have been found in this
        condition. There is also peculiar light phenomena, and seeming
        "military" phenomena, such as hovering, noiseless and disappearing
        helicopters, always yellow. All of these phenomena would seem to be
        in preparation for Ahriman's incarnation in the west, and my own
        educated guess is that this will occur between 2012 and 2033, with
        2033 a very significant year, in the western US. RS has said that
        Ahriman wants to take over or tear out the instinctual or
        reproductive life of human beings and use it; this ties in with what
        is said about Andreev's visions in the post. South-central Colorado
        is close to Trinity, which might be described as a hole opened up on
        the surface of the Earth by the backward Archai or Asuras, the opened
        pit out of which the demonic, Ahrimanic beings have emerged onto the
        Earth's surface. I do believe that very dark forces are presently
        secretly at work in Phoenix, Arizona, based on a brief but
        unmistakable encounter with a satanic personality there. Christopher
        O'Brien has recently connected these dark enterprises, spiritually,
        with Meso-American practices of human sacrifices.

        Some of the UFO-based beings are not altogether evil or dark, but are
        apparently "friendly."

        RS said that Ahriman in his incarnation would be a great magi or
        magician, working wonders, and this "magic" can be seen in the UFO
        phenomena (not to mention computers), such as the UFO reported by
        three police departments independently in the northern midwest: the
        UFO seen was described as being the size of a football field. From
        all of this satanic magic, humanity can wrest much for his own
        further development, including, apparently, secrets of hovering
        spacecraft, levitation and the capacity for materialization and de-
        materialization, as well as the computer marvels.

        Obviously, Osama Bin Laden is an instrument of Ahriman, and has said
        expressly that his hope is to generate as much fear as possible among
        Americans, and others, such as Israeli's, at this time. Ahriman feeds
        on this type of fear and anxiety. All of this is preparation.

        I hope this contribution is helpful.

        Cordially,

        Martha



        --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:32 PM Eastern Standard
        Time, pacbay@a... writes:
        >
        > > I have just re-read this post with some interest and asked where
        the beings mentioned actually "live" -certainly not in the subways of
        New York....
        >
        > *******Same place leprechauns do, I'd say.
        >
        > >
        > > In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the ones
        mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but they could
        not be same. In all reports both public and governmental, these short
        gray beings do not talk!. In fact they barely have slits for mouths
        from drawings and descriptions. All communications are done
        telepathically and in the earth language appropriate to the listener.
        They also do not walk normally but have some energetic method of
        moving or hovering off the ground at times. In addition, one of the
        issues in their visitations is procreation. They cannot procreate any
        longer and have mastered genetic and artificial womb technologies
        according to most reports. One of the reasons that they are here is
        to solve this dilemma through the use of human
        > > fertility.
        >
        > *******Beings that hover, communicate by telepathy and don't
        reproduce sexually sound an awful lot like angels, don't they? Or
        fallen angels---don't you think?
        > And why would levitating beings travel in space ships?
        >
        > -starman
      • jla
        I continue to warn APs and others on the spiritual journey not to assume, project or mix theories in these areas. As I pointed out in the Andreev book, the
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 16, 2002
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          I continue to warn APs and others on the spiritual journey not to assume, project or mix theories in these areas. As I pointed out in the Andreev book, the similarities end quickly between his descriptions of sub humans and grays. The gray levitation ability are limited and infrequent by the way. Its a hyper etheric force it seems but not strong enough to propel them through space.
           
          .
          There is an incredible knowledge gap between certain paranormal phenomena and esotericism at present and early 20th century claims may be outdated or not sufficient to the task. Whether for right or wrong reasons, one field is out pacing the other at least in the public arena.
          Case in point: John Edward and Crossing Over show on Fox and the Sci-Fi channel. Is he a medium and as such and promoting false psychic ideas? Hardly. His vague perceptual abilities are often highly accurate concerning information and facts between the dead and the living. Some may say that he is being "used" by the dark forces to promote a spiritualistic form of work; and on the other hand he may be of great use and value and is the best we have now in bridging the gap between the living and the dead. He is not "materializing the dead" but trying to create a bridge of awareness between the living and the dead. Ahriman's work and appearance may also be in the midst of various forms of social and spiritual phenomena that he may not have anything to do with directly.
           
          Jeff
           
           

          I haven't read the book by Andreev but appreciate the post making so
          much clear from it... [I hope I am not repeating what may have
          discussed earlier by this group.] I did read two books by Christopher
          O'Brien titled The Mysterious Valley and Enter the Valley, in which
          the author attempts to make sense of the cattle mutilations and other
          peculiar phenomena in the area of the San Luis Valley, which is in
          south & central Colorado, although he does not seem to be a Christian
          or an esoteric Christian. These mutilations are not peculiar to this
          area, but have occurred very frequently there. The cattle are found
          with the reproductive systems having been rapidly bored out and
          removed, as though with lasers. It has not occurred only with cattle;
          humans, including a teen-aged girl, have been found in this
          condition. There is also peculiar light phenomena, and seeming
          "military" phenomena, such as hovering, noiseless and disappearing
          helicopters, always yellow. All of these phenomena would seem to be
          in preparation for Ahriman's incarnation in the west, and my own
          educated guess is that this will occur between 2012 and 2033, with
          2033 a very significant year, in the western US. RS has said that
          Ahriman wants to take over or tear out the instinctual or
          reproductive life of human beings and use it; this ties in with what
          is said about Andreev's visions in the post. South-central Colorado
          is close to Trinity, which might be described as a hole opened up on
          the surface of the Earth by the backward Archai or Asuras, the opened
          pit out of which the demonic, Ahrimanic beings have emerged onto the
          Earth's surface. I do believe that very dark forces are presently
          secretly at work in Phoenix, Arizona, based on a brief but
          unmistakable encounter with a satanic personality there. Christopher
          O'Brien has recently connected these dark enterprises, spiritually,
          with Meso-American practices of human sacrifices.

          Some of the UFO-based beings are not altogether evil or dark, but are
          apparently "friendly." 

          RS said that Ahriman in his incarnation would be a great magi or
          magician, working wonders, and this "magic" can be seen in the UFO
          phenomena (not to mention computers), such as the UFO reported by
          three police departments independently in the northern midwest: the
          UFO seen was described as being the size of a football field. From
          all of this satanic magic, humanity can wrest much for his own
          further development, including, apparently, secrets of hovering
          spacecraft, levitation and the capacity for materialization and de-
          materialization, as well as the computer marvels.

          Obviously, Osama Bin Laden is an instrument of Ahriman, and has said
          expressly that his hope is to generate as much fear as possible among
          Americans, and others, such as Israeli's, at this time. Ahriman feeds
          on this type of fear and anxiety. All of this is preparation.

          I hope this contribution is helpful.

          Cordially,

          Martha

           

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:32 PM Eastern Standard
          Time, pacbay@a... writes:
          >
          > > I have just re-read this post with some interest and asked where
          the beings mentioned actually "live" -certainly not in the subways of
          New York....
          >
          > *******Same place leprechauns do, I'd say.
          >
          > > 
          > >  In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the ones
          mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but they could
          not be same. In all reports both public and governmental, these short
          gray beings do not talk!. In fact they barely have slits for mouths
          from drawings and descriptions. All communications are done
          telepathically and in the earth language appropriate to the listener.
          They also do not walk normally but have some energetic method of
          moving or hovering off the ground at times.  In addition, one of the
          issues in their visitations is procreation. They cannot procreate any
          longer and have mastered genetic and artificial womb technologies
          according to most reports. One of the reasons that they are here is
          to solve this dilemma through the use of human
          > > fertility.
          >
          > *******Beings that hover, communicate by telepathy and don't
          reproduce sexually sound an awful lot like angels, don't they? Or
          fallen angels---don't you think?
          >     And why would levitating beings travel in space ships?
          >
          > -starman



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        • jla
          ... From: DRStarman2001@aol.com To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Phenomenon source: aliens &
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 16, 2002
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            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:52 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev

            In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, pacbay@... writes:

            > I have just re-read this post with some interest and asked where the beings mentioned actually "live" -certainly not in the subways of New York....

            *******Same place leprechauns do, I'd say.



            *******Beings that hover, communicate by telepathy and don't reproduce sexually sound an awful lot like angels, don't they? Or fallen angels---don't you think?
                And why would levitating beings travel in space ships?

            -starman
            They have and can reproduce in a limited way  but cannot sustain their race, it is said, due to a defect in genetics and/or sexual forces. Just as in the future sexuality will end (Steiner said in about 5000 years!)for us, how will our human race continue? Another means will have to used to procreate or at least create infant bodies. This was mentioned in the History of the Contents lectures series, I recall, and I came upon it again in lecture recently.
             
            jeff



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          • studioeditions2002
            There are no theories referred to here, but reference and witnesses to observable phenomena. We have an obligation at all times to apply what esoteric
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 17, 2002
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              There are no theories referred to here, but reference and witnesses
              to observable phenomena. We have an obligation at all times to apply
              what esoteric knowledge or experience we have acquired to what is
              happening in the here and now. What we have in our time is an
              escalation in tension between the forces of Christ and Anti-Christ.
              We cannot precisely rely on what was given in the early 20th century;
              the time to fall back on teachers, authorities and books ceases at
              some point and we must assess independently what is happening in our
              contemporary world and think and act accordingly. Much is very
              unpleasant, even ridiculous-sounding (so were the ovens in WWII,
              discovered after the fact), but that is the Nature of the Anti-
              Christ. Evil is not creative or original or very clever and at times
              is so obvious and stupid as to be unbelievable. It's not very
              difficult after all: Christ or not or the opposite? Does Christ live
              within the heart of John Edwards, or is Christ awakening in that
              heart? It is Christ in the etheric world who makes possible what John
              Edwards is accomplishing. Right in the here and now, the
              "entertainment industry" and off-shoots have discovered the "dead"
              are not dead after all. It's opening yet more floodgates.

              In regard to other issues occurring within this discussion group: it
              is better not to write about an individual in a publication because
              the point can always be made, and better made, without causing the
              enormous suffering to an individual and his followers. Why write a
              book pointedly about someone's flaws or failures? Something is
              clearly wrong in the motivation to this approach even though there
              may be truth in it. Have understanding and tolerance as to the stage
              someone is at... They are talking about Love at the Ark group... It
              is the Christ Who can help us to love the person and understand what
              stage they are at; to have tolerance. I was once awed by authority,
              such as the "Class Reader," and would have avoided a book on the word
              of that authority. I may have once been awed by the AP "star." We
              learn better, fortunately. As to the happenings in the AP Society, if
              they are thoughtless, careless, dangerous or corrupt, just don't give
              them your money or support. This seems to be a sinking boat, really,
              if it hasn't already gone under. Just accept and go on. Perhaps what
              Stanley Messenger has said about RS is correct: he'd presently like
              to be free of AP and the Society
              and go on....


              Martha
              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
              > I continue to warn APs and others on the spiritual journey not to
              assume, project or mix theories in these areas. As I pointed out in
              the Andreev book, the similarities end quickly between his
              descriptions of sub humans and grays. The gray levitation ability are
              limited and infrequent by the way. Its a hyper etheric force it seems
              but not strong enough to propel them through space.
              >
              > .
              > There is an incredible knowledge gap between certain paranormal
              phenomena and esotericism at present and early 20th century claims
              may be outdated or not sufficient to the task. Whether for right or
              wrong reasons, one field is out pacing the other at least in the
              public arena.
              > Case in point: John Edward and Crossing Over show on Fox and the
              Sci-Fi channel. Is he a medium and as such and promoting false
              psychic ideas? Hardly. His vague perceptual abilities are often
              highly accurate concerning information and facts between the dead and
              the living. Some may say that he is being "used" by the dark forces
              to promote a spiritualistic form of work; and on the other hand he
              may be of great use and value and is the best we have now in bridging
              the gap between the living and the dead. He is not "materializing the
              dead" but trying to create a bridge of awareness between the living
              and the dead. Ahriman's work and appearance may also be in the midst
              of various forms of social and spiritual phenomena that he may not
              have anything to do with directly.
              >
              > Jeff
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I haven't read the book by Andreev but appreciate the post making
              so
              > much clear from it... [I hope I am not repeating what may have
              > discussed earlier by this group.] I did read two books by
              Christopher
              > O'Brien titled The Mysterious Valley and Enter the Valley, in
              which
              > the author attempts to make sense of the cattle mutilations and
              other
              > peculiar phenomena in the area of the San Luis Valley, which is
              in
              > south & central Colorado, although he does not seem to be a
              Christian
              > or an esoteric Christian. These mutilations are not peculiar to
              this
              > area, but have occurred very frequently there. The cattle are
              found
              > with the reproductive systems having been rapidly bored out and
              > removed, as though with lasers. It has not occurred only with
              cattle;
              > humans, including a teen-aged girl, have been found in this
              > condition. There is also peculiar light phenomena, and seeming
              > "military" phenomena, such as hovering, noiseless and
              disappearing
              > helicopters, always yellow. All of these phenomena would seem to
              be
              > in preparation for Ahriman's incarnation in the west, and my own
              > educated guess is that this will occur between 2012 and 2033,
              with
              > 2033 a very significant year, in the western US. RS has said that
              > Ahriman wants to take over or tear out the instinctual or
              > reproductive life of human beings and use it; this ties in with
              what
              > is said about Andreev's visions in the post. South-central
              Colorado
              > is close to Trinity, which might be described as a hole opened up
              on
              > the surface of the Earth by the backward Archai or Asuras, the
              opened
              > pit out of which the demonic, Ahrimanic beings have emerged onto
              the
              > Earth's surface. I do believe that very dark forces are presently
              > secretly at work in Phoenix, Arizona, based on a brief but
              > unmistakable encounter with a satanic personality there.
              Christopher
              > O'Brien has recently connected these dark enterprises,
              spiritually,
              > with Meso-American practices of human sacrifices.
              >
              > Some of the UFO-based beings are not altogether evil or dark, but
              are
              > apparently "friendly."
              >
              > RS said that Ahriman in his incarnation would be a great magi or
              > magician, working wonders, and this "magic" can be seen in the
              UFO
              > phenomena (not to mention computers), such as the UFO reported by
              > three police departments independently in the northern midwest:
              the
              > UFO seen was described as being the size of a football field.
              From
              > all of this satanic magic, humanity can wrest much for his own
              > further development, including, apparently, secrets of hovering
              > spacecraft, levitation and the capacity for materialization and
              de-
              > materialization, as well as the computer marvels.
              >
              > Obviously, Osama Bin Laden is an instrument of Ahriman, and has
              said
              > expressly that his hope is to generate as much fear as possible
              among
              > Americans, and others, such as Israeli's, at this time. Ahriman
              feeds
              > on this type of fear and anxiety. All of this is preparation.
              >
              > I hope this contribution is helpful.
              >
              > Cordially,
              >
              > Martha
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              > > In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:32 PM Eastern
              Standard
              > Time, pacbay@a... writes:
              > >
              > > > I have just re-read this post with some interest and asked
              where
              > the beings mentioned actually "live" -certainly not in the
              subways of
              > New York....
              > >
              > > *******Same place leprechauns do, I'd say.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the
              ones
              > mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but they
              could
              > not be same. In all reports both public and governmental, these
              short
              > gray beings do not talk!. In fact they barely have slits for
              mouths
              > from drawings and descriptions. All communications are done
              > telepathically and in the earth language appropriate to the
              listener.
              > They also do not walk normally but have some energetic method of
              > moving or hovering off the ground at times. In addition, one of
              the
              > issues in their visitations is procreation. They cannot procreate
              any
              > longer and have mastered genetic and artificial womb technologies
              > according to most reports. One of the reasons that they are here
              is
              > to solve this dilemma through the use of human
              > > > fertility.
              > >
              > > *******Beings that hover, communicate by telepathy and don't
              > reproduce sexually sound an awful lot like angels, don't they? Or
              > fallen angels---don't you think?
              > > And why would levitating beings travel in space ships?
              > >
              > > -starman
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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              Service.
            • Joel Wendt
              ... Dear Martha, I take you haven t read the book either, in which case your characterization why write a book pointedly about someone s flaws or failures
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 17, 2002
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                On Wed, 2002-07-17 at 09:02, studioeditions2002 wrote:
                > In regard to other issues occurring within this discussion group: it
                > is better not to write about an individual in a publication because
                > the point can always be made, and better made, without causing the
                > enormous suffering to an individual and his followers. Why write a
                > book pointedly about someone's flaws or failures? Something is
                > clearly wrong in the motivation to this approach even though there
                > may be truth in it.

                Dear Martha,

                I take you haven't read the book either, in which case your
                characterization "why write a book pointedly about someone's flaws or
                failures" doesn't really wash.

                SOP is only the subject of G's book to the extent that he has inserted
                his personality into his own writings, and to the extent that there is a
                belief within wide segments of the AS regarding the quality of that
                work.

                You assume a motive "against" someone, when the real motive is to try
                to make whole what has suffered because of someone's excesses.

                What is being made whole is the integrity of the idea of "evolution of
                conscious" in its details as are needed by those striving modern souls.
                That idea, given as a gift from Steiner and the spiritual beings who
                worked with him, is central for people who want to understand either
                their own soul life in the present or all the social implications of
                this dynamic process as it effects modern life from behind the scenes -
                from the invisible.

                SOP is teaching a serious distortion of this idea. To let that pass,
                simply on the basis that someone's feelings might be hurt, or SOP's
                followers might have to wake from their slumbers is no reason at all.
                Would you have Christ not disturb the money changers in the Temple,
                because it makes a mess and a loud noise?

                fiery regards,
                joel
              • studioeditions2002
                Children, love one another, quoth John. Will you reach an age when you forget about SOP and G, or take it to your grave? Fiery regards, Martha ... it ...
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 17, 2002
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                  "Children, love one another," quoth John. Will you reach an age when
                  you forget about SOP and G, or take it to your grave?

                  Fiery regards,

                  Martha

                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., Joel Wendt <hermit@t...> wrote:
                  > On Wed, 2002-07-17 at 09:02, studioeditions2002 wrote:
                  > > In regard to other issues occurring within this discussion group:
                  it
                  > > is better not to write about an individual in a publication
                  because
                  > > the point can always be made, and better made, without causing
                  the
                  > > enormous suffering to an individual and his followers. Why write
                  a
                  > > book pointedly about someone's flaws or failures? Something is
                  > > clearly wrong in the motivation to this approach even though
                  there
                  > > may be truth in it.
                  >
                  > Dear Martha,
                  >
                  > I take you haven't read the book either, in which case your
                  > characterization "why write a book pointedly about someone's flaws
                  or
                  > failures" doesn't really wash.
                  >
                  > SOP is only the subject of G's book to the extent that he has
                  inserted
                  > his personality into his own writings, and to the extent that there
                  is a
                  > belief within wide segments of the AS regarding the quality of that
                  > work.
                  >
                  > You assume a motive "against" someone, when the real motive
                  is to try
                  > to make whole what has suffered because of someone's excesses.
                  >
                  > What is being made whole is the integrity of the idea of
                  "evolution of
                  > conscious" in its details as are needed by those striving modern
                  souls.
                  > That idea, given as a gift from Steiner and the spiritual beings who
                  > worked with him, is central for people who want to understand either
                  > their own soul life in the present or all the social implications of
                  > this dynamic process as it effects modern life from behind the
                  scenes -
                  > from the invisible.
                  >
                  > SOP is teaching a serious distortion of this idea. To let
                  that pass,
                  > simply on the basis that someone's feelings might be hurt, or SOP's
                  > followers might have to wake from their slumbers is no reason at
                  all.
                  > Would you have Christ not disturb the money changers in the Temple,
                  > because it makes a mess and a loud noise?
                  >
                  > fiery regards,
                  > joel
                • Sieglunda
                  Martha, I m beginning to wonder WHO S grave. There are ideas, which we all have, share and discuss...then there are fanatics who expect ALL to share their
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 17, 2002
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                    Martha, I'm beginning to wonder WHO'S grave. There are ideas, which we all
                    have, share and discuss...then there are fanatics who expect ALL to share
                    their ideas.

                    [psssst - use your mailer's filter...my ulcer might be healing, after all.
                    :) ]

                    Sieglunda

                    > "Children, love one another," quoth John. Will you reach an age when
                    > you forget about SOP and G, or take it to your grave?
                    >
                    > Fiery regards,
                    >
                    > Martha
                  • studioeditions2002
                    God bless you, Sieglunda. And SOP, and G (wherever you both are). ... we all ... share ... after all. ... when
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 17, 2002
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                      God bless you, Sieglunda. And SOP, and G (wherever you both are).

                      :) M.
                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Sieglunda" <sieglunda@e...> wrote:
                      > Martha, I'm beginning to wonder WHO'S grave. There are ideas, which
                      we all
                      > have, share and discuss...then there are fanatics who expect ALL to
                      share
                      > their ideas.
                      >
                      > [psssst - use your mailer's filter...my ulcer might be healing,
                      after all.
                      > :) ]
                      >
                      > Sieglunda
                      >
                      > > "Children, love one another," quoth John. Will you reach an age
                      when
                      > > you forget about SOP and G, or take it to your grave?
                      > >
                      > > Fiery regards,
                      > >
                      > > Martha
                    • jla
                      Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure. And I think you are right about this.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 23, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure.
                         
                        And I think you are right about this. Many Ufologists pooh pooh metaphysical explanations because it violates some vaulted idea of science. To many of them, ufo phenomena can be explained as evolutionary extensions  similar to what  we are going through now. And its certainly conceivable that in the vast cosmos there must be more physical worlds than just the earth. In this regard, imagine were we will be in 500 or 5000 years if things continue as they have. We have gone from biplanes to space travel in just 50 years. If the space shuttle can now go back in forth into space with ease, what will things be like in another 50 years. If we do not destroy ourselves first, surely the technology will be created to travel to any of the planets and maybe beyond in that time. Thus ufo proponents have a hard time imagining or believing in non physical beings as part of the picture.
                         
                        I have a friend by the way in the field. She has been a lecturer for many years on the subject. She is also convinced that some of the grays are not physical but from another dimension entirely. The problem again is: there is ample antidotal evidence that some are physical and we know it. Some have  been examined and probed by the military and may actually be "working" with the government in deep secret. As hard as this is to swallow, there are available video interviews of people who are no longer involved in secret projects who have actually seen these beings walking around and interacting with military personnel in research facilities. (see: Bob Lazar, Jesse Marcel, and Lt.Col. Corso).
                         
                         
                        Jeff
                        -----
                         
                         Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:10 PM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev


                        Jeff:

                        In your post reply you offered
                        some "on-target" pondering about...

                        > " ....where the beings mentioned (do) actually "live" –
                        certainly
                        not in the subways of New York....
                        >
                        >  In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the ones
                        mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but they
                        could not be same. In all reports both public and governmental,
                        these short gray beings do not talk!.
                        >
                        > In fact they barely have slits for mouths from drawings and
                        descriptions.
                        >
                        > All communications are done telepathically and in the earth
                        language appropriate to the listener. They also do not walk
                        normally but have some energetic method of moving or hovering
                        off the ground at times.
                        >
                        > In addition, one of the issues in their visitations is procreation.
                        They cannot procreate any longer and have mastered genetic
                        and artificial womb technologies according to most reports.
                        >
                        > One of the reasons that they are here is to solve this dilemma
                        through the use of human fertility...

                        = = = = = = = = = =

                        Jeff:

                        My informal perspective – fully in accord
                        with prior discussions here –  is that these
                        creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
                        Andreev's physically precise descriptions).

                        Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
                        residing in a lower level of "physical"
                        – a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical – 
                        than even where we ourselves physically
                        reside.

                        I think this would comport with RS'
                        implicit/explicit statements about the
                        existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.

                        Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
                        than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
                        types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
                        the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
                        described...including having some
                        physical effects in our domain.

                        = = = = = = = = = = = =

                        When I read "Rose of the World,"
                        I was truly impressed to see how
                        Andreev addressed – decades in
                        advance – the characteristics and
                        intentions ("inter-mating" issue, etc.)
                        as LATER came to the fore in the
                        personal accounts of the "honest"
                        but misguided "I was abducted" folks.

                        = = = = = = = = = = = =

                        Regards (and thanks),

                        Lightsearcher1












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                      • studioeditions2002
                        While studying Tudor Pole, I came across a question he answered about UFO s. He said that some were indeed physical or actual, and were appearing (especially
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 24, 2002
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                          While studying Tudor Pole, I came across a question he answered about
                          UFO's. He said that some were indeed physical or actual, and were
                          appearing (especially from the mid-forties through the fifties) in
                          response to the threat to the universe from nuclear bombs; the beings
                          were not only alarmed and concerned that humanity might destroy their
                          beautiful blue planet, but also because what happened on Earth would
                          effect the entire universe. The Roswell incidents are interesting in
                          view of this.

                          Didn't RS state in a lecture that there would be actual visitations
                          of beings from other planets in the near future, and how they would
                          be received by us would determine the course of our future?

                          Martha


                          --
                          - In anthroposophy@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                          > Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the
                          book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure.
                          >
                          > And I think you are right about this. Many Ufologists pooh pooh
                          metaphysical explanations because it violates some vaulted idea of
                          science. To many of them, ufo phenomena can be explained as
                          evolutionary extensions similar to what we are going through now.
                          And its certainly conceivable that in the vast cosmos there must be
                          more physical worlds than just the earth. In this regard, imagine
                          were we will be in 500 or 5000 years if things continue as they have.
                          We have gone from biplanes to space travel in just 50 years. If the
                          space shuttle can now go back in forth into space with ease, what
                          will things be like in another 50 years. If we do not destroy
                          ourselves first, surely the technology will be created to travel to
                          any of the planets and maybe beyond in that time. Thus ufo proponents
                          have a hard time imagining or believing in non physical beings as
                          part of the picture.
                          >
                          > I have a friend by the way in the field. She has been a lecturer
                          for many years on the subject. She is also convinced that some of the
                          grays are not physical but from another dimension entirely. The
                          problem again is: there is ample antidotal evidence that some are
                          physical and we know it. Some have been examined and probed by the
                          military and may actually be "working" with the government in deep
                          secret. As hard as this is to swallow, there are available video
                          interviews of people who are no longer involved in secret projects
                          who have actually seen these beings walking around and interacting
                          with military personnel in research facilities. (see: Bob Lazar,
                          Jesse Marcel, and Lt.Col. Corso).
                          >
                          >
                          > Jeff
                          > -----
                          >
                          > Original Message -----
                          > From: lightsearcher1
                          > To: anthroposophy@y...
                          > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:10 PM
                          > Subject: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's
                          and Andreev
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Jeff:
                          >
                          > In your post reply you offered
                          > some "on-target" pondering about...
                          >
                          > > " ....where the beings mentioned (do) actually "live" -
                          > certainly
                          > not in the subways of New York....
                          > >
                          > > In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the ones
                          > mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but they
                          > could not be same. In all reports both public and governmental,
                          > these short gray beings do not talk!.
                          > >
                          > > In fact they barely have slits for mouths from drawings and
                          > descriptions.
                          > >
                          > > All communications are done telepathically and in the earth
                          > language appropriate to the listener. They also do not walk
                          > normally but have some energetic method of moving or hovering
                          > off the ground at times.
                          > >
                          > > In addition, one of the issues in their visitations is
                          procreation.
                          > They cannot procreate any longer and have mastered genetic
                          > and artificial womb technologies according to most reports.
                          > >
                          > > One of the reasons that they are here is to solve this dilemma
                          > through the use of human fertility...
                          >
                          > = = = = = = = = = =
                          >
                          > Jeff:
                          >
                          > My informal perspective - fully in accord
                          > with prior discussions here - is that these
                          > creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
                          > Andreev's physically precise descriptions).
                          >
                          > Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
                          > residing in a lower level of "physical"
                          > - a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical -
                          > than even where we ourselves physically
                          > reside.
                          >
                          > I think this would comport with RS'
                          > implicit/explicit statements about the
                          > existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.
                          >
                          > Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
                          > than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
                          > types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
                          > the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
                          > described...including having some
                          > physical effects in our domain.
                          >
                          > = = = = = = = = = = = =
                          >
                          > When I read "Rose of the World,"
                          > I was truly impressed to see how
                          > Andreev addressed - decades in
                          > advance - the characteristics and
                          > intentions ("inter-mating" issue, etc.)
                          > as LATER came to the fore in the
                          > personal accounts of the "honest"
                          > but misguided "I was abducted" folks.
                          >
                          > = = = = = = = = = = = =
                          >
                          > Regards (and thanks),
                          >
                          > Lightsearcher1
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > ADVERTISEMENT
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                          >
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                          Service.
                        • jla
                          Very good point and one that I missed. Having a physical body and principle does not necessarily mean mineral organic body! Jeff ... From:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 27, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Very good point and one that I missed. Having a "physical body and principle" does not necessarily mean mineral organic body!
                             
                            Jeff
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:31 PM
                            Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev

                            The vocabulary we use itself is not clear; what is meant
                            by "spiritual" beings, and what is meant by "physical" beings? One
                            thing doctor Steiner taught me is that physical is not a synonym of
                            mineral density, for we did have a physical body as early as the
                            Saturn incarnation of the Earth. We should define some concepts.

                            The only things Steiner mentionned about beings on other planets that
                            I know of, is that he indirectly says that there are still some human
                            beings on Saturn (Occult Science).

                            Marc



                            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                            > Dear Martha,
                            > I've found very puzzling your statements on RS's insights
                            about "actual
                            > beings" who would visit the Eart in future..  Can you be so kind to
                            quote
                            > exactly the source?
                            > As I know, after having studied Steiner's work for 30 years , he
                            never
                            > talked about "dense-physical-mineral-sensible beings as we are" on
                            the other
                            > planets
                            > As you know this topic has been discussed for a while on the list
                            and I have
                            > a very different insight about it from others' (f.i. Jeff) but I'm 
                            always
                            > interested in learning new things.........
                            > Tks in advance
                            > Andrea
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: studioeditions2002 <tcpubs@m...>
                            > To: <anthroposophy@y...>
                            > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:52 PM
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's
                            and Andreev
                            >
                            >
                            > > While studying Tudor Pole, I came across a question he answered
                            about
                            > > UFO's. He said that some were indeed physical or actual, and were
                            > > appearing (especially from the mid-forties through the fifties) in
                            > > response to the threat to the universe from nuclear bombs; the
                            beings
                            > > were not only alarmed and concerned that humanity might destroy
                            their
                            > > beautiful blue planet, but also because what happened on Earth
                            would
                            > > effect the entire universe. The Roswell incidents are interesting
                            in
                            > > view of this.
                            > >
                            > > Didn't RS state in a lecture that there would be actual
                            visitations
                            > > of beings from other planets in the near future, and how they
                            would
                            > > be received by us would determine the course of our future?
                            > >
                            > > Martha
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > - In anthroposophy@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                            > > > Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the
                            > > book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure.
                            > > >
                            > > > And I think you are right about this. Many Ufologists pooh pooh
                            > > metaphysical explanations because it violates some vaulted idea of
                            > > science. To many of them, ufo phenomena can be explained as
                            > > evolutionary extensions  similar to what  we are going through
                            now.
                            > > And its certainly conceivable that in the vast cosmos there must
                            be
                            > > more physical worlds than just the earth. In this regard, imagine
                            > > were we will be in 500 or 5000 years if things continue as they
                            have.
                            > > We have gone from biplanes to space travel in just 50 years. If
                            the
                            > > space shuttle can now go back in forth into space with ease, what
                            > > will things be like in another 50 years. If we do not destroy
                            > > ourselves first, surely the technology will be created to travel
                            to
                            > > any of the planets and maybe beyond in that time. Thus ufo
                            proponents
                            > > have a hard time imagining or believing in non physical beings as
                            > > part of the picture.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have a friend by the way in the field. She has been a lecturer
                            > > for many years on the subject. She is also convinced that some of
                            the
                            > > grays are not physical but from another dimension entirely. The
                            > > problem again is: there is ample antidotal evidence that some are
                            > > physical and we know it. Some have  been examined and probed by
                            the
                            > > military and may actually be "working" with the government in deep
                            > > secret. As hard as this is to swallow, there are available video
                            > > interviews of people who are no longer involved in secret projects
                            > > who have actually seen these beings walking around and interacting
                            > > with military personnel in research facilities. (see: Bob Lazar,
                            > > Jesse Marcel, and Lt.Col. Corso).
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Jeff
                            > > > -----
                            > > >
                            > > >  Original Message -----
                            > > >   From: lightsearcher1
                            > > >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                            > > >   Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:10 PM
                            > > >   Subject: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens &
                            U.F.O's
                            > > and Andreev
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >   Jeff:
                            > > >
                            > > >   In your post reply you offered
                            > > >   some "on-target" pondering about...
                            > > >
                            > > >   > " ....where the beings mentioned (do) actually "live" -
                            > > >   certainly
                            > > >   not in the subways of New York....
                            > > >   >
                            > > >   >  In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the
                            ones
                            > > >   mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but
                            they
                            > > >   could not be same. In all reports both public and
                            governmental,
                            > > >   these short gray beings do not talk!.
                            > > >   >
                            > > >   > In fact they barely have slits for mouths from drawings and
                            > > >   descriptions.
                            > > >   >
                            > > >   > All communications are done telepathically and in the earth
                            > > >   language appropriate to the listener. They also do not walk
                            > > >   normally but have some energetic method of moving or hovering
                            > > >   off the ground at times.
                            > > >   >
                            > > >   > In addition, one of the issues in their visitations is
                            > > procreation.
                            > > >   They cannot procreate any longer and have mastered genetic
                            > > >   and artificial womb technologies according to most reports.
                            > > >   >
                            > > >   > One of the reasons that they are here is to solve this
                            dilemma
                            > > >   through the use of human fertility...
                            > > >
                            > > >   = = = = = = = = = =
                            > > >
                            > > >   Jeff:
                            > > >
                            > > >   My informal perspective - fully in accord
                            > > >   with prior discussions here -  is that these
                            > > >   creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
                            > > >   Andreev's physically precise descriptions).
                            > > >
                            > > >   Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
                            > > >   residing in a lower level of "physical"
                            > > >   - a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical -
                            > > >   than even where we ourselves physically
                            > > >   reside.
                            > > >
                            > > >   I think this would comport with RS'
                            > > >   implicit/explicit statements about the
                            > > >   existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.
                            > > >
                            > > >   Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
                            > > >   than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
                            > > >   types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
                            > > >   the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
                            > > >   described...including having some
                            > > >   physical effects in our domain.
                            > > >
                            > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                            > > >
                            > > >   When I read "Rose of the World,"
                            > > >   I was truly impressed to see how
                            > > >   Andreev addressed - decades in
                            > > >   advance - the characteristics and
                            > > >   intentions ("inter-mating" issue, etc.)
                            > > >   as LATER came to the fore in the
                            > > >   personal accounts of the "honest"
                            > > >   but misguided "I was abducted" folks.
                            > > >
                            > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                            > > >
                            > > >   Regards (and thanks),
                            > > >
                            > > >   Lightsearcher1
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > >               ADVERTISEMENT
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                            > > >   anthroposophy-unsubscribe@y...
                            > > >   List owner:  anthroposophy-owner@y...
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                            > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > > Service.
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                          • elf
                            My experience of extra terrestials (although i am a hybrid fairy / alien myself that is not what I am referring to but contact with another consciousness) The
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 27, 2002
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                              My experience of extra terrestials (although i am a hybrid fairy / alien myself that is not what I am referring to but contact with another consciousness)

                              The world has been ruled by two major factors in recent history, fear and greed.

                              Opposite sides of the same coin perhaps.  This fear has been so deeply rooted in the dna and the subconscious that part of :their: work is the activation, recognition and freedom from such conscious terror and unconscious terror

                              now put that in ya pipes and smoke it fastly

                               

                              jla wrote:

                              Very good point and one that I missed. Having a "physical body and principle" does not necessarily mean mineral organic body!
                               
                              Jeff
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:31 PM
                              Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev

                              The vocabulary we use itself is not clear; what is meant
                              by "spiritual" beings, and what is meant by "physical" beings? One
                              thing doctor Steiner taught me is that physical is not a synonym of
                              mineral density, for we did have a physical body as early as the
                              Saturn incarnation of the Earth. We should define some concepts.

                              The only things Steiner mentionned about beings on other planets that
                              I know of, is that he indirectly says that there are still some human
                              beings on Saturn (Occult Science).

                              Marc



                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                              > Dear Martha,
                              > I've found very puzzling your statements on RS's insights
                              about "actual
                              > beings" who would visit the Eart in future..  Can you be so kind to
                              quote
                              > exactly the source?
                              > As I know, after having studied Steiner's work for 30 years , he
                              never
                              > talked about "dense-physical-mineral-sensible beings as we are" on
                              the other
                              > planets
                              > As you know this topic has been discussed for a while on the list
                              and I have
                              > a very different insight about it from others' (f.i. Jeff) but I'm 
                              always
                              > interested in learning new things.........
                              > Tks in advance
                              > Andrea
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: studioeditions2002 <tcpubs@m...>
                              > To: <anthroposophy@y...>
                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:52 PM
                              > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's
                              and Andreev
                              >
                              >
                              > > While studying Tudor Pole, I came across a question he answered
                              about
                              > > UFO's. He said that some were indeed physical or actual, and were
                              > > appearing (especially from the mid-forties through the fifties) in
                              > > response to the threat to the universe from nuclear bombs; the
                              beings
                              > > were not only alarmed and concerned that humanity might destroy
                              their
                              > > beautiful blue planet, but also because what happened on Earth
                              would
                              > > effect the entire universe. The Roswell incidents are interesting
                              in
                              > > view of this.
                              > >
                              > > Didn't RS state in a lecture that there would be actual
                              visitations
                              > > of beings from other planets in the near future, and how they
                              would
                              > > be received by us would determine the course of our future?
                              > >
                              > > Martha
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > - In anthroposophy@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                              > > > Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the
                              > > book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure.
                              > > >
                              > > > And I think you are right about this. Many Ufologists pooh pooh
                              > > metaphysical explanations because it violates some vaulted idea of
                              > > science. To many of them, ufo phenomena can be explained as
                              > > evolutionary extensions  similar to what  we are going through
                              now.
                              > > And its certainly conceivable that in the vast cosmos there must
                              be
                              > > more physical worlds than just the earth. In this regard, imagine
                              > > were we will be in 500 or 5000 years if things continue as they
                              have.
                              > > We have gone from biplanes to space travel in just 50 years. If
                              the
                              > > space shuttle can now go back in forth into space with ease, what
                              > > will things be like in another 50 years. If we do not destroy
                              > > ourselves first, surely the technology will be created to travel
                              to
                              > > any of the planets and maybe beyond in that time. Thus ufo
                              proponents
                              > > have a hard time imagining or believing in non physical beings as
                              > > part of the picture.
                              > > >
                              > > > I have a friend by the way in the field. She has been a lecturer
                              > > for many years on the subject. She is also convinced that some of
                              the
                              > > grays are not physical but from another dimension entirely. The
                              > > problem again is: there is ample antidotal evidence that some are
                              > > physical and we know it. Some have  been examined and probed by
                              the
                              > > military and may actually be "working" with the government in deep
                              > > secret. As hard as this is to swallow, there are available video
                              > > interviews of people who are no longer involved in secret projects
                              > > who have actually seen these beings walking around and interacting
                              > > with military personnel in research facilities. (see: Bob Lazar,
                              > > Jesse Marcel, and Lt.Col. Corso).
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Jeff
                              > > > -----
                              > > >
                              > > >  Original Message -----
                              > > >   From: lightsearcher1
                              > > >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                              > > >   Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:10 PM
                              > > >   Subject: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens &
                              U.F.O's
                              > > and Andreev
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >   Jeff:
                              > > >
                              > > >   In your post reply you offered
                              > > >   some "on-target" pondering about...
                              > > >
                              > > >   > " ....where the beings mentioned (do) actually "live" -
                              > > >   certainly
                              > > >   not in the subways of New York....
                              > > >   >
                              > > >   >  In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the
                              ones
                              > > >   mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but
                              they
                              > > >   could not be same. In all reports both public and
                              governmental,
                              > > >   these short gray beings do not talk!.
                              > > >   >
                              > > >   > In fact they barely have slits for mouths from drawings and
                              > > >   descriptions.
                              > > >   >
                              > > >   > All communications are done telepathically and in the earth
                              > > >   language appropriate to the listener. They also do not walk
                              > > >   normally but have some energetic method of moving or hovering
                              > > >   off the ground at times.
                              > > >   >
                              > > >   > In addition, one of the issues in their visitations is
                              > > procreation.
                              > > >   They cannot procreate any longer and have mastered genetic
                              > > >   and artificial womb technologies according to most reports.
                              > > >   >
                              > > >   > One of the reasons that they are here is to solve this
                              dilemma
                              > > >   through the use of human fertility...
                              > > >
                              > > >   = = = = = = = = = =
                              > > >
                              > > >   Jeff:
                              > > >
                              > > >   My informal perspective - fully in accord
                              > > >   with prior discussions here -  is that these
                              > > >   creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
                              > > >   Andreev's physically precise descriptions).
                              > > >
                              > > >   Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
                              > > >   residing in a lower level of "physical"
                              > > >   - a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical -
                              > > >   than even where we ourselves physically
                              > > >   reside.
                              > > >
                              > > >   I think this would comport with RS'
                              > > >   implicit/explicit statements about the
                              > > >   existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.
                              > > >
                              > > >   Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
                              > > >   than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
                              > > >   types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
                              > > >   the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
                              > > >   described...including having some
                              > > >   physical effects in our domain.
                              > > >
                              > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                              > > >
                              > > >   When I read "Rose of the World,"
                              > > >   I was truly impressed to see how
                              > > >   Andreev addressed - decades in
                              > > >   advance - the characteristics and
                              > > >   intentions ("inter-mating" issue, etc.)
                              > > >   as LATER came to the fore in the
                              > > >   personal accounts of the "honest"
                              > > >   but misguided "I was abducted" folks.
                              > > >
                              > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                              > > >
                              > > >   Regards (and thanks),
                              > > >
                              > > >   Lightsearcher1
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
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                            • elf
                              Truth of course cannot be implied - only experienced. Mind is not capable of knowing everything fully; it s always knowing something which is equal to knowing
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 27, 2002
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                                Truth of course cannot be implied - only experienced.

                                Mind is not capable
                                of knowing everything
                                fully;
                                it's always knowing something
                                which is equal
                                to knowing nothing.

                                Partial knowledge
                                is no knowledge
                                and any knowledge
                                devoid of absoluteness
                                doesn't free us.

                                and thats the beginnin and end of that. 

                                 elf wrote:

                                My experience of extra terrestials (although i am a hybrid fairy / alien myself that is not what I am referring to but contact with another consciousness)

                                The world has been ruled by two major factors in recent history, fear and greed.

                                Opposite sides of the same coin perhaps.  This fear has been so deeply rooted in the dna and the subconscious that part of :their: work is the activation, recognition and freedom from such conscious terror and unconscious terror

                                now put that in ya pipes and smoke it fastly

                                jla wrote:

                                Very good point and one that I missed. Having a "physical body and principle" does not necessarily mean mineral organic body!
                                 
                                Jeff
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:31 PM
                                Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev

                                The vocabulary we use itself is not clear; what is meant
                                by "spiritual" beings, and what is meant by "physical" beings? One
                                thing doctor Steiner taught me is that physical is not a synonym of
                                mineral density, for we did have a physical body as early as the
                                Saturn incarnation of the Earth. We should define some concepts.

                                The only things Steiner mentionned about beings on other planets that
                                I know of, is that he indirectly says that there are still some human
                                beings on Saturn (Occult Science).

                                Marc



                                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                                > Dear Martha,
                                > I've found very puzzling your statements on RS's insights
                                about "actual
                                > beings" who would visit the Eart in future..  Can you be so kind to
                                quote
                                > exactly the source?
                                > As I know, after having studied Steiner's work for 30 years , he
                                never
                                > talked about "dense-physical-mineral-sensible beings as we are" on
                                the other
                                > planets
                                > As you know this topic has been discussed for a while on the list
                                and I have
                                > a very different insight about it from others' (f.i. Jeff) but I'm 
                                always
                                > interested in learning new things.........
                                > Tks in advance
                                > Andrea
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: studioeditions2002 <tcpubs@m...>
                                > To: <anthroposophy@y...>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:52 PM
                                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's
                                and Andreev
                                >
                                >
                                > > While studying Tudor Pole, I came across a question he answered
                                about
                                > > UFO's. He said that some were indeed physical or actual, and were
                                > > appearing (especially from the mid-forties through the fifties) in
                                > > response to the threat to the universe from nuclear bombs; the
                                beings
                                > > were not only alarmed and concerned that humanity might destroy
                                their
                                > > beautiful blue planet, but also because what happened on Earth
                                would
                                > > effect the entire universe. The Roswell incidents are interesting
                                in
                                > > view of this.
                                > >
                                > > Didn't RS state in a lecture that there would be actual
                                visitations
                                > > of beings from other planets in the near future, and how they
                                would
                                > > be received by us would determine the course of our future?
                                > >
                                > > Martha
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > - In anthroposophy@y..., "jla" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                                > > > Based on this discussion and your comments, I just received the
                                > > book by mail and will read it. More later, I am sure.
                                > > >
                                > > > And I think you are right about this. Many Ufologists pooh pooh
                                > > metaphysical explanations because it violates some vaulted idea of
                                > > science. To many of them, ufo phenomena can be explained as
                                > > evolutionary extensions  similar to what  we are going through
                                now.
                                > > And its certainly conceivable that in the vast cosmos there must
                                be
                                > > more physical worlds than just the earth. In this regard, imagine
                                > > were we will be in 500 or 5000 years if things continue as they
                                have.
                                > > We have gone from biplanes to space travel in just 50 years. If
                                the
                                > > space shuttle can now go back in forth into space with ease, what
                                > > will things be like in another 50 years. If we do not destroy
                                > > ourselves first, surely the technology will be created to travel
                                to
                                > > any of the planets and maybe beyond in that time. Thus ufo
                                proponents
                                > > have a hard time imagining or believing in non physical beings as
                                > > part of the picture.
                                > > >
                                > > > I have a friend by the way in the field. She has been a lecturer
                                > > for many years on the subject. She is also convinced that some of
                                the
                                > > grays are not physical but from another dimension entirely. The
                                > > problem again is: there is ample antidotal evidence that some are
                                > > physical and we know it. Some have  been examined and probed by
                                the
                                > > military and may actually be "working" with the government in deep
                                > > secret. As hard as this is to swallow, there are available video
                                > > interviews of people who are no longer involved in secret projects
                                > > who have actually seen these beings walking around and interacting
                                > > with military personnel in research facilities. (see: Bob Lazar,
                                > > Jesse Marcel, and Lt.Col. Corso).
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Jeff
                                > > > -----
                                > > >
                                > > >  Original Message -----
                                > > >   From: lightsearcher1
                                > > >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                                > > >   Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:10 PM
                                > > >   Subject: [anthroposophy] re: Phenomenon source: aliens &
                                U.F.O's
                                > > and Andreev
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >   Jeff:
                                > > >
                                > > >   In your post reply you offered
                                > > >   some "on-target" pondering about...
                                > > >
                                > > >   > " ....where the beings mentioned (do) actually "live" -
                                > > >   certainly
                                > > >   not in the subways of New York....
                                > > >   >
                                > > >   >  In addition, the proposition that they may indeed be the
                                ones
                                > > >   mentioned as the "grays" in UFO literature is enticing but
                                they
                                > > >   could not be same. In all reports both public and
                                governmental,
                                > > >   these short gray beings do not talk!.
                                > > >   >
                                > > >   > In fact they barely have slits for mouths from drawings and
                                > > >   descriptions.
                                > > >   >
                                > > >   > All communications are done telepathically and in the earth
                                > > >   language appropriate to the listener. They also do not walk
                                > > >   normally but have some energetic method of moving or hovering
                                > > >   off the ground at times.
                                > > >   >
                                > > >   > In addition, one of the issues in their visitations is
                                > > procreation.
                                > > >   They cannot procreate any longer and have mastered genetic
                                > > >   and artificial womb technologies according to most reports.
                                > > >   >
                                > > >   > One of the reasons that they are here is to solve this
                                dilemma
                                > > >   through the use of human fertility...
                                > > >
                                > > >   = = = = = = = = = =
                                > > >
                                > > >   Jeff:
                                > > >
                                > > >   My informal perspective - fully in accord
                                > > >   with prior discussions here -  is that these
                                > > >   creatures are not "physical" beings (despite
                                > > >   Andreev's physically precise descriptions).
                                > > >
                                > > >   Instead, they would be SPIRIT beings
                                > > >   residing in a lower level of "physical"
                                > > >   - a spiritual, nay, sub-spiritual physical -
                                > > >   than even where we ourselves physically
                                > > >   reside.
                                > > >
                                > > >   I think this would comport with RS'
                                > > >   implicit/explicit statements about the
                                > > >   existence of "lower-than-physical" realms.
                                > > >
                                > > >   Residing in a spiritual mode "more physical
                                > > >   than physical," they would be Ahrimanic
                                > > >   types with the "tentative" capacity to do all
                                > > >   the "physical sounding" stuff Andreev
                                > > >   described...including having some
                                > > >   physical effects in our domain.
                                > > >
                                > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                                > > >
                                > > >   When I read "Rose of the World,"
                                > > >   I was truly impressed to see how
                                > > >   Andreev addressed - decades in
                                > > >   advance - the characteristics and
                                > > >   intentions ("inter-mating" issue, etc.)
                                > > >   as LATER came to the fore in the
                                > > >   personal accounts of the "honest"
                                > > >   but misguided "I was abducted" folks.
                                > > >
                                > > >   = = = = = = = = = = = =
                                > > >
                                > > >   Regards (and thanks),
                                > > >
                                > > >   Lightsearcher1
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
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                              • Paul Newton
                                Marc, thanks for your reply to my questions. I referred to remarks that I believe Dr Steiner made to the workmen at the Goetheanum. I believe he was asked
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 30, 2002
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                                  Marc, thanks for your reply to my questions.
                                   
                                  I referred to remarks that I believe Dr Steiner made to the workmen at the Goetheanum. I believe he was asked about the danger of a collision between Mars and the Earth. He said not to worry, that it wasn't about to happen and that Mars is not densely physical anyway. I read about this years ago in the then journal of the AS in GB (thought I had it, but can't find it). There was a discussion there as to whether this meant that Steiner was just plain wrong or whether changes might have occurred to the physical substance of the planet, perhaps due to the materialistic thoughts of the human race. That's my recollection, at least. Perhaps someone out there has the relevant lecture to the workmen?
                                   
                                  I found what you had to say about the unsettled nature of modern dating of fossils and the limitations of carbon dating extremely interesting. (I had felt that carbon-dating could be allowing us to make false assumptions about geological age, but I had assumed that its validity was not contested within the scientific community).  Can you give us references for the scientific debate about these things? Also, for what you said about the atomic clock.
                                   
                                  Paul,
                                  on a sunny day in Wisconsin, USA
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: utopia_planetia_2000
                                  Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:55 PM
                                  To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev
                                   
                                  > 1/ Isn't it the case that Dr Steiner said (to the Workmen at the
                                  Goetheanum, I believe) that Mars too is non-mineral, and hasn't that
                                  been proved to be false? (I have seen it suggested that Mars became
                                  mineralized since the 1920's: what do you think?).

                                  Maybe I don't have enough background to understand what you mean
                                  by "became mineralized". What became mineralized? The inhabitants on
                                  the etheric or astral level?
                                  >
                                  > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of world
                                  evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly of
                                  geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?

                                  The only way I reconciled both is by knowing as much as I could of
                                  both and seeing where they agree. Fossil records do not disagree with
                                  Steiner's akashic investigations. Animals and lower life forms came
                                  to mineral density much earlier than humans. The datation of fossils
                                  is still an ongoing debate in the scientific community. Only a few
                                  weeks ago, sedimental strata are being reassessed in term of age, in
                                  the range or million of years. Carbon fourteen datation can only be
                                  precise for determining the age of things not older than the middle-
                                  age.

                                  A more problematic aspect for the mind to grasp is that I do not
                                  think that time was always constant. Over the pasts years, the atomic
                                  clock was reccuringly adjusted to compensate the loss of seconds. Now
                                  it amounts to several minutes only since the 70s or so.

                                  There are electromagnetic and frequency variable to take into
                                  consideration in measuring the passage of time. The brain functions
                                  as so. Perception of time is not the same in alpha state (brain wave
                                  activity measured in term of hertz) than in other states. And this a
                                  organic/biological effect. The Earth is a body regulated no
                                  differently than our own.

                                  I would be glad to further this discussion.

                                  Marc


                                  >
                                  > Paul Newton,
                                  > Wisconsin, USA
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                                  > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 2:52 PM
                                  > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                  > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens &
                                  U.F.O's and Andreev
                                  >
                                  > utopia_planetia@h... writes:
                                  > > A question comes to my mind, would we "see" the inhabitants of
                                  Lemuria with the current spectrum of our eyes? If I understand what
                                  Steiner said so far, the further we go back in time, the
                                  less "mineralized" humans were.
                                  > > 
                                  > > It makes sense to think that human beings have existed at
                                  different levels of densification of the physical body. We could call
                                  it an "ahrimanizing" process according to anthroposophical concepts :-
                                  )
                                  >
                                  > *******Only after the Moon split off from the earth did the bodies
                                  of 'Lemurian' men become mineral and solid. Before that time the
                                  physical body of man is warm air-currents in a Fire-Mist, and then
                                  circulation of fluids like present-day cytoplasmic streaming. We
                                  experience Lemurian man through inward experience, not externally
                                  seeing our bodies then through eyes. Seeing the Akasha is not like
                                  watching a movie, but more like recalling a series of dream-pictures.
                                  >
                                  > Dr. Starman
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • utopia_planetia_2000
                                  Hi Paul, I d have to trace which Science et Vie magazine, newspaper and PBS program. Concerning carbon fourteen dating, there are many assumptions in the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 31, 2002
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                                    Hi Paul,

                                    I'd have to trace which Science et Vie magazine, newspaper and PBS
                                    program. Concerning carbon fourteen dating, there are many
                                    assumptions in the scientific community which makes it not a
                                    foolproff tool: the rate of C-14 decay consistency throughout time.
                                    There are too many climactic variables to consider. The older the
                                    subject tested, the less reliable and imprecise the measure is.

                                    I'd like to share something that I find interesting. About
                                    experiments of time and height, and time and speed.

                                    Scientists place two clocks. One on the rooftop of a sckyscraper and
                                    the other on the first floor. After a time, the two clocks, priorly
                                    synchroneous, were off by very little, but still off. The clock on
                                    top slowed down.

                                    The second experiement involved two clocks again, this time one
                                    within a flying plane and the other one immobile on the ground. The
                                    experiment concluded that the clock within the plane was off too --
                                    earlier.

                                    I don't really know what to conclude, but the geophysical force of
                                    the earth regulates time in some way and speed and distance from the
                                    planet extracts the subject from its influence. It has been
                                    documented as well that time within a space-capsule during orbit is
                                    asynchroneous with Earth-time. Slower, again.

                                    Steiner stated that the Earth did not always have the same round
                                    shape, and presumably therefore not the same rotation-pattern. And to
                                    this rotation I think are linked the resonance and electromagnetic
                                    levels. Steiner had to go back on previous statements he had made
                                    about how old are certain epochs. I beleive it is due to the lack of
                                    a universally constant measurement unit. Modern science backtracked
                                    more than once on assessments they had made about the age of
                                    sedimentation. I suppose life at an organic level adapts to
                                    the "frequency" proposed by the Earth and consciousness is biased by
                                    that filter. How can we measure linearly time if it does contract and
                                    expand -- according to space and speed? I remember Steiner saying
                                    that only speed is an objective reality; space and time being mere
                                    equations.

                                    An analogy would be trying to weigh something heavy on the moon, say,
                                    something of 200 kg. However, the notion of heavy looses its reality
                                    there, along with the measuring unit which was created for the
                                    perception of "heavy" in the first place. Maybe time, like gravity,
                                    is a relative notion. There's no way of measuring how old something
                                    is because of the variable of when (or rather "how fast") and where
                                    the experimenter is in relation to the tested subject.

                                    Marc


                                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Paul Newton" <paulknewton@m...> wrote:
                                    > Marc, thanks for your reply to my questions.
                                    >
                                    > I referred to remarks that I believe Dr Steiner made to the workmen
                                    at the Goetheanum. I believe he was asked about the danger of a
                                    collision between Mars and the Earth. He said not to worry, that it
                                    wasn't about to happen and that Mars is not densely physical anyway.
                                    I read about this years ago in the then journal of the AS in GB
                                    (thought I had it, but can't find it). There was a discussion there
                                    as to whether this meant that Steiner was just plain wrong or whether
                                    changes might have occurred to the physical substance of the planet,
                                    perhaps due to the materialistic thoughts of the human race. That's
                                    my recollection, at least. Perhaps someone out there has the relevant
                                    lecture to the workmen?
                                    >
                                    > I found what you had to say about the unsettled nature of modern
                                    dating of fossils and the limitations of carbon dating extremely
                                    interesting. (I had felt that carbon-dating could be allowing us to
                                    make false assumptions about geological age, but I had assumed that
                                    its validity was not contested within the scientific community). Can
                                    you give us references for the scientific debate about these things?
                                    Also, for what you said about the atomic clock.
                                    >
                                    > Paul,
                                    > on a sunny day in Wisconsin, USA
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: utopia_planetia_2000
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:55 PM
                                    > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                    > Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's
                                    and Andreev
                                    >
                                    > > 1/ Isn't it the case that Dr Steiner said (to the Workmen at the
                                    > Goetheanum, I believe) that Mars too is non-mineral, and hasn't
                                    that
                                    > been proved to be false? (I have seen it suggested that Mars
                                    became
                                    > mineralized since the 1920's: what do you think?).
                                    >
                                    > Maybe I don't have enough background to understand what you mean
                                    > by "became mineralized". What became mineralized? The inhabitants
                                    on
                                    > the etheric or astral level?
                                    > >
                                    > > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of world
                                    > evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly
                                    of
                                    > geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?
                                    >
                                    > The only way I reconciled both is by knowing as much as I could of
                                    > both and seeing where they agree. Fossil records do not disagree
                                    with
                                    > Steiner's akashic investigations. Animals and lower life forms
                                    came
                                    > to mineral density much earlier than humans. The datation of
                                    fossils
                                    > is still an ongoing debate in the scientific community. Only a few
                                    > weeks ago, sedimental strata are being reassessed in term of age,
                                    in
                                    > the range or million of years. Carbon fourteen datation can only
                                    be
                                    > precise for determining the age of things not older than the middle-
                                    > age.
                                    >
                                    > A more problematic aspect for the mind to grasp is that I do not
                                    > think that time was always constant. Over the pasts years, the
                                    atomic
                                    > clock was reccuringly adjusted to compensate the loss of seconds.
                                    Now
                                    > it amounts to several minutes only since the 70s or so.
                                    >
                                    > There are electromagnetic and frequency variable to take into
                                    > consideration in measuring the passage of time. The brain
                                    functions
                                    > as so. Perception of time is not the same in alpha state (brain
                                    wave
                                    > activity measured in term of hertz) than in other states. And this
                                    a
                                    > organic/biological effect. The Earth is a body regulated no
                                    > differently than our own.
                                    >
                                    > I would be glad to further this discussion.
                                    >
                                    > Marc
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > Paul Newton,
                                    > > Wisconsin, USA
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                                    > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 2:52 PM
                                    > > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                    > > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens &
                                    > U.F.O's and Andreev
                                    > >
                                    > > utopia_planetia@h... writes:
                                    > > > A question comes to my mind, would we "see" the inhabitants of
                                    > Lemuria with the current spectrum of our eyes? If I understand
                                    what
                                    > Steiner said so far, the further we go back in time, the
                                    > less "mineralized" humans were.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It makes sense to think that human beings have existed at
                                    > different levels of densification of the physical body. We could
                                    call
                                    > it an "ahrimanizing" process according to anthroposophical
                                    concepts :-
                                    > )
                                    > >
                                    > > *******Only after the Moon split off from the earth did the
                                    bodies
                                    > of 'Lemurian' men become mineral and solid. Before that time the
                                    > physical body of man is warm air-currents in a Fire-Mist, and then
                                    > circulation of fluids like present-day cytoplasmic streaming. We
                                    > experience Lemurian man through inward experience, not externally
                                    > seeing our bodies then through eyes. Seeing the Akasha is not like
                                    > watching a movie, but more like recalling a series of dream-
                                    pictures.
                                    > >
                                    > > Dr. Starman
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                                    > > Unsubscribe:
                                    > > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@y...
                                    > > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@y...
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                    ... *******Now that I have time to answer this I ll try. It s a big subject. The facts that science has discovered, we can reconcile with spiritual science;
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 21, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > utopia_planetia@... writes:
                                      > > > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of world evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly of geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?

                                      *******Now that I have time to answer this I'll try. It's a big subject. The facts that science has discovered, we can reconcile with spiritual science; not so the Religion of Scientism with its dogmas. Unfortunately the so-called scientists of today demand their theories be equated with facts.
                                      To separate the wheat from the chaff a bit, what we know of the world goes back only a few thousand years. All ancient calendars, like the Chinese or Hebrew, go back less than seven or eight thousand years. The oldest scriptures speak of a previous 'world' or civilization destroyed in a great world-catastrophe. Now, that was the mindframe in which modern science developed. Until 1700 or so (the "Enlightenment"), no one knew of or believed in anything being more than 10,000 years old. Then, in the course of digging canals in England, the first skeletons of giant unknown animals were unearthed, and around the same time the first theories of anything like modern geology began. First, formations were examined and it was realized that they must have taken thousands of years to take their present shape; and the destruction of these
                                      'dinosaur' creatures was interpreted as supporting evidence for those legendary world-catastrophes.
                                      In the nineteenth century, however, the 'uniformitarian' point of view of Lyell came about in geology, that everything in the past was caused by the same processees as are going on around us now, and at the same rate. It fit in with the conservative Victorian outlook, and Darwin took it as his basis for a theory where all change is slow and gradual. This very slow change of living things required incredibly long periods of time, however, with one organ changing and then another, slowly building up to a whole new organism. Only then did 'millions' and then 'hundreds of millions' and then finally 'billions' of years come to be in the picture.
                                      Unfortunately emotions immediately come into it when Darwinism is discussed, because so many people have an emotional investment in it as a sort of Religion produced by the Enlightenment. Actually, its basis of slow, gradual change has since been thrown out in favor of sudden mutations, but oddly the ideas which were accepted ON that basis remain.
                                      It's also unfortunate that only child-like fundamentalists usually look at the abundant evidence that the earth may be far younger than these theories built up from Lyell & Darwin demand, and that, in the rush to put together a completely worked-out theory to compete with the religions that science believed were irrational superstitions holding Man back, many errors were made of interpretation of the geological facts.
                                      But the facts supplied by the Akashic Records are not in conflict with the evidence, only the interpretations of it. And principal among these is the interpretation that, as human fossils are found only recently, Man evolved from the animal. We know that Man was there spiritually as the animals became material, and that he only entered physical form last. And, in fact, far from the apes creating Man, the first imperfect physical forms intended for human souls DEVOLVED into the apes.

                                      More in the future if interested.

                                      -Starman
                                    • elf
                                      8-22-2002 Kin 76: Yellow Spectral WarriorI dissolve in order to questionReleasing fearlessnessI seal the output of intelligenceWith the spectral tone of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 21, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment

                                        8-22-2002

                                        Kin 76: Yellow Spectral Warrior

                                        I dissolve in order to question
                                        Releasing fearlessness
                                        I seal the output of intelligence
                                        With the spectral tone of liberation
                                        I am guided by my own power doubled
                                         
                                         
                                        Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge
                                        in the field of truth and knowledge
                                        is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
                                        Albert Einstein

                                         DRStarman2001@... wrote:


                                        >  utopia_planetia@... writes:
                                        > > > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of world evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly of geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?

                                        *******Now that I have time to answer this I'll try. It's a big subject. The facts that science has discovered, we can reconcile with spiritual science; not so the Religion of Scientism with its dogmas. Unfortunately the so-called scientists of today demand their theories be equated with facts.
                                           To separate the wheat from the chaff a bit, what we know of the world goes back only a few thousand years. All ancient calendars, like the Chinese or Hebrew, go back less than seven or eight thousand years. The oldest scriptures speak of a previous 'world' or civilization destroyed in a great world-catastrophe. Now, that was the mindframe in which modern science developed. Until 1700 or so (the "Enlightenment"), no one knew of or believed in anything being more than 10,000 years old. Then, in the course of digging canals in England, the first skeletons of giant unknown animals were unearthed, and around the same time the first theories of anything like modern geology began. First, formations were examined and it was realized that they must have taken thousands of years to take their present shape; and the destruction of these
                                        'dinosaur' creatures was interpreted as supporting evidence for those legendary world-catastrophes.
                                           In the nineteenth century, however, the 'uniformitarian' point of view of Lyell came about in geology, that everything in the past was caused by the same processees as are going on around us now, and at the same rate. It fit in with the conservative Victorian outlook, and Darwin took it as his basis for a theory where all change is slow and gradual. This very slow change of living things required incredibly long periods of time, however, with one organ changing and then another, slowly building up to a whole new organism. Only then did 'millions' and then 'hundreds of millions' and then finally 'billions' of years come to be in the picture.
                                           Unfortunately emotions immediately come into it when Darwinism is discussed, because so many people have an emotional investment in it as a sort of Religion produced by the Enlightenment. Actually, its basis of slow, gradual change has since been thrown out in favor of sudden mutations, but oddly the ideas which were accepted ON that basis remain.
                                           It's also unfortunate that only child-like fundamentalists usually look at the abundant evidence that the earth may be far younger than these theories built up from Lyell & Darwin demand, and that, in the rush to put together a completely worked-out theory to compete with the religions that science believed were irrational superstitions holding Man back, many errors were made of interpretation of the geological facts.
                                           But the facts supplied by the Akashic Records are not in conflict with the evidence, only the interpretations of it. And principal among these is the interpretation that, as human fossils are found only recently, Man evolved from the animal. We know that Man was there spiritually as the animals became material, and that he only entered physical form last. And, in fact, far from the apes creating Man, the first imperfect physical forms intended for human souls DEVOLVED into the apes.

                                          More in the future if interested.

                                        -Starman



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                                      • Ashley Case
                                        I am interested... ... From: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 04:24:44 PM To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 21, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >
                                          I am interested...
                                           
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                           
                                          Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 04:24:44 PM
                                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev
                                           

                                          >  utopia_planetia@... writes:
                                          > > > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of
                                          world evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly of geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?

                                          *******Now that I have time to answer this I'll try. It's a big subject. The facts that science has discovered, we can reconcile with spiritual science; not so the Religion of Scientism with its dogmas. Unfortunately the so-called scientists of today demand their theories be equated with facts.
                                             To separate the wheat from the chaff a bit, what we know of the world goes back only a few thousand years. All ancient calendars, like the Chinese or Hebrew, go back less than seven or eight thousand years. The oldest scriptures speak of a previous 'world' or civilization destroyed in a great world-catastrophe. Now, that was the mindframe in which modern science developed. Until 1700 or so (the "Enlightenment"), no one knew of or believed in anything being more than 10,000 years old. Then, in the course of digging canals in England, the first skeletons of giant unknown animals were unearthed, and around the same time the first theories of anything like modern geology began. First, formations were examined and it was realized that they must have taken thousands of years to take their present shape; and the destruction of these
                                          'dinosaur' creatures was interpreted as supporting evidence for those legendary world-catastrophes.
                                             In the nineteenth century, however, the 'uniformitarian' point of view of Lyell came about in geology, that everything in the past was caused by the same processees as are going on around us now, and at the same rate. It fit in with the conservative Victorian outlook, and Darwin took it as his basis for a theory where all change is slow and gradual. This very slow change of living things required incredibly long periods of time, however, with one organ changing and then another, slowly building up to a whole new organism. Only then did 'millions' and then 'hundreds of millions' and then finally 'billions' of years come to be in the picture.
                                             Unfortunately emotions immediately come into it when Darwinism is discussed, because so many people have an emotional investment in it as a sort of Religion produced by the Enlightenment. Actually, its basis of slow, gradual change has since been thrown out in favor of sudden mutations, but oddly the ideas which were accepted ON that basis remain.
                                             It's also unfortunate that only child-like fundamentalists usually look at the abundant evidence that the earth may be far younger than these theories built up from Lyell & Darwin demand, and that, in the rush to put together a completely worked-out theory to compete with the religions that science believed were irrational superstitions holding Man back, many errors were made of interpretation of the geological facts.
                                             But the facts supplied by the Akashic Records are not in conflict with the evidence, only the interpretations of it. And principal among these is the interpretation that, as human fossils are found only recently, Man evolved from the animal. We know that Man was there spiritually as the animals became material, and that he only entered physical form last. And, in fact, far from the apes creating Man, the first imperfect physical forms intended for human souls DEVOLVED into the apes.

                                            More in the future if interested.

                                          -Starman



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                                        • LilOleMiss
                                          You can bet I m interested, too, Dr. Starman! Sheila I am interested... ... From: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 04:24:44 PM
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 21, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                             
                                            You can bet I'm interested, too, Dr. Starman!
                                            Sheila
                                            I am interested...
                                             
                                            -------Original Message-------
                                             
                                            Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 04:24:44 PM
                                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Phenomenon source: aliens & U.F.O's and Andreev
                                             

                                            utopia_planetia@... writes:
                                            > > > 2/ How are we to reconcile the anthroposophical view of world evolution with that of modern science? I'm thinking particularly of geology and the fossil record? What of the dinosaurs?

                                            *******Now that I have time to answer this I'll try. It's a big subject. The facts that science has discovered, we can reconcile with spiritual science; not so the Religion of Scientism with its dogmas. Unfortunately the so-called scientists of today demand their theories be equated with facts.
                                               To separate the wheat from the chaff a bit, what we know of the world goes back only a few thousand years. All ancient calendars, like the Chinese or Hebrew, go back less than seven or eight thousand years. The oldest scriptures speak of a previous 'world' or civilization destroyed in a great world-catastrophe. Now, that was the mindframe in which modern science developed. Until 1700 or so (the "Enlightenment"), no one knew of or believed in anything being more than 10,000 years old. Then, in the course of digging canals in England, the first skeletons of giant unknown animals were unearthed, and around the same time the first theories of anything like modern geology began. First, formations were examined and it was realized that they must have taken thousands of years to take their present shape; and the destruction of these
                                            'dinosaur' creatures was interpreted as supporting evidence for those legendary world-catastrophes.
                                               In the nineteenth century, however, the 'uniformitarian' point of view of Lyell came about in geology, that everything in the past was caused by the same processees as are going on around us now, and at the same rate. It fit in with the conservative Victorian outlook, and Darwin took it as his basis for a theory where all change is slow and gradual. This very slow change of living things required incredibly long periods of time, however, with one organ changing and then another, slowly building up to a whole new organism. Only then did 'millions' and then 'hundreds of millions' and then finally 'billions' of years come to be in the picture.
                                               Unfortunately emotions immediately come into it when Darwinism is discussed, because so many people have an emotional investment in it as a sort of Religion produced by the Enlightenment. Actually, its basis of slow, gradual change has since been thrown out in favor of sudden mutations, but oddly the ideas which were accepted ON that basis remain.
                                               It's also unfortunate that only child-like fundamentalists usually look at the abundant evidence that the earth may be far younger than these theories built up from Lyell & Darwin demand, and that, in the rush to put together a completely worked-out theory to compete with the religions that science believed were irrational superstitions holding Man back, many errors were made of interpretation of the geological facts.
                                               But the facts supplied by the Akashic Records are not in conflict with the evidence, only the interpretations of it. And principal among these is the interpretation that, as human fossils are found only recently, Man evolved from the animal. We know that Man was there spiritually as the animals became material, and that he only entered physical form last. And, in fact, far from the apes creating Man, the first imperfect physical forms intended for human souls DEVOLVED into the apes.

                                              More in the future if interested.

                                            -Starman



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