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Re: Self Responsibility

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  • studioeditions2002
    Please see my recent post to Adam Kane. I worked through all these lectures on karma some years ago (not that a refresher course would be unfruitful, i.e.,
    Message 1 of 40 , Jun 29, 2002
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      Please see my recent post to Adam Kane. I worked through all these
      lectures on karma some years ago (not that a refresher course would
      be unfruitful, i.e., karma in relation to chance). I simply cannot
      accept through my experiences and observations of life that there are
      no accidents or elements of chance, as I attempted to explain in my
      post to Adam Kane. Well, perhaps I can also address some things he
      touched upon here...

      I can only agree that AP is the central redeeming worldview for our
      time. The A's are all at different stages of their development, and
      the study or deep immersion in the RS books can go on for a long
      time, years. This could result in coldness toward others because of
      the immersion of the intellect, and also arrogance. This stage, which
      some may never emerge from, is the intellectual, card-carrying arm's-
      length AP. So my own experience or karma was to respond with acute
      sensitivity to this coldness. Two people can witness the same
      behavior, and yet respond to it entirely differently. Karma can
      really be found in the way one individual responds to a given
      situation, and what the situation causes them to do (deeds). The
      second individual may respond entirely differently. One is repelled
      by, the other is attracted to what is witnessed. RS did say somewhere
      that if an individual opens or spiritually develops too soon or too
      rapidly, he/she will end up detesting humanity, hating humanity.
      Better to remain in the intellectual phase indefinitely and be
      arrogant than force premature development and become a despiser of
      humanity.

      What happened in my case was that I required a long, heart-resting
      "pralaya" away from all AP. Then, the "ordinary" events and people
      experienced in everyday life become treasured; one discovers depths
      of wisdom in the undervalued; God will sometimes speak through them
      if only we have ears to hear. It's the story of the man who searched
      the world over, then found the diamond right in his own back yard.
      Also are the tremendous treasures to be discovered in all sorts of
      books and sources unrelated to AP, as well as different spiritual
      teachers and streams. Just be wary: the key factor in all of these
      other sources is: Christ or not? In the most ordinary book, Christ is
      either a factor, or as is too often often the case, no more than a
      curse word. So I probably could never go back to the karma lectures.
      It seems obvious to me, that many friends I have known did not
      fulfull their destiny, and I've had countless chance meetings. In the
      spiritual world all is "One," and there is not freedom there, but in
      this world we have freedom. God knows what the Universe has
      sacrificed to give us that freedom. (Additionally, RS has indicated
      that individuals who die in an accident as a result of human error,
      or as caused by Ahriman, will have their karma cleared. Obviously,
      25,000 people who die in a volcanic eruption were not meant to die.)

      Only get to that point where you love humanity, and the tears and the
      smiles upon his/her beautiful, godly countenance. :( :)

      [It's your dramatist speaking.]
      Martha



      Thank you,

      Martha
      --- In anthroposophy@y..., Bill <bmacro@l...> wrote:
      > There are no accidents. There is no blame. We are here to be
      responsible
      > for who we are and what we do, both on the individual level and the
      > world level. We are here to experience pain and suffering. That
      doesn't
      > mean we forego compassion and love of others. "Thou know thyself"
      and
      > "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
      >
      > Another point is how do we know that something that occurs through
      our
      > sense perceptions here in the physical world has the same
      consequences
      > or the same origins in the spiritual world. We don't. Steiner does
      say that.
      >
      > All of the Karmic Relationship series is available except for III
      and
      > VII. V may also be unavailable, but I was told by Steiner College
      > Bookstore they could order it for me. I think the APress is gearing
      up
      > to reissue VII. I don't know about the others. I would start with
      > Anthroposophical Press and go from there. Ask around.
      >
      > I suggest "Manifestations of Karma", along with some others, in
      the
      > meantime.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > studioeditions2002 wrote:
      >
      > >I am new to this group and would like to comment on a few messages
      in
      > >regard to karmic responsibility, including Rudolf Steiner's quote
      on
      > >accidents as self-caused.
      > >
      > >Here we are touching on a fundamental problem of "anthroposophical
      > >relationships," that is, a lack of sympathy for one another due to
      > >knowledge of karma as the root cause of much suffering,
      originating
      > >with the self to punish the self for past misdeeds or force
      changes
      > >on the self for the future.
      > >
      > >First of all, not all accidents are self-caused, there can be pure
      > >accidents, otherwise there would be no elements of chance or
      freedom.
      > >Secondly, we cannot easily presume to know whether an accident is
      > >self-caused or not, this would require profound understanding of
      the
      > >individual who suffers the accident. Frequently, deep interest in
      the
      > >other is lacking in anthroposophical relationships as the schooled
      > >anthroposophist is arrogant.
      > >
      > >Finally, that measure of warm sympathy for the suffering of the
      > >victim is far more important than a cold knowledge of whether the
      > >accident was self-caused or not.
      > >
      > >Or, the next time you help a person up from a slick sidewalk who
      has
      > >just broken a bone, will the first thoughts in your head be
      "Steiner
      > >said..." ?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
      > >Unsubscribe:
      > >anthroposophy-unsubscribe@y...
      > >List owner: anthroposophy-owner@y...
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • studioeditions2002
      Please see my recent post to Adam Kane. I worked through all these lectures on karma some years ago (not that a refresher course would be unfruitful, i.e.,
      Message 40 of 40 , Jun 29, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Please see my recent post to Adam Kane. I worked through all these
        lectures on karma some years ago (not that a refresher course would
        be unfruitful, i.e., karma in relation to chance). I simply cannot
        accept through my experiences and observations of life that there are
        no accidents or elements of chance, as I attempted to explain in my
        post to Adam Kane. Well, perhaps I can also address some things he
        touched upon here...

        I can only agree that AP is the central redeeming worldview for our
        time. The A's are all at different stages of their development, and
        the study or deep immersion in the RS books can go on for a long
        time, years. This could result in coldness toward others because of
        the immersion of the intellect, and also arrogance. This stage, which
        some may never emerge from, is the intellectual, card-carrying arm's-
        length AP. So my own experience or karma was to respond with acute
        sensitivity to this coldness. Two people can witness the same
        behavior, and yet respond to it entirely differently. Karma can
        really be found in the way one individual responds to a given
        situation, and what the situation causes them to do (deeds). The
        second individual may respond entirely differently. One is repelled
        by, the other is attracted to what is witnessed. RS did say somewhere
        that if an individual opens or spiritually develops too soon or too
        rapidly, he/she will end up detesting humanity, hating humanity.
        Better to remain in the intellectual phase indefinitely and be
        arrogant than force premature development and become a despiser of
        humanity.

        What happened in my case was that I required a long, heart-resting
        "pralaya" away from all AP. Then, the "ordinary" events and people
        experienced in everyday life become treasured; one discovers depths
        of wisdom in the undervalued; God will sometimes speak through them
        if only we have ears to hear. It's the story of the man who searched
        the world over, then found the diamond right in his own back yard.
        Also are the tremendous treasures to be discovered in all sorts of
        books and sources unrelated to AP, as well as different spiritual
        teachers and streams. Just be wary: the key factor in all of these
        other sources is: Christ or not? In the most ordinary book, Christ is
        either a factor, or as is too often often the case, no more than a
        curse word. So I probably could never go back to the karma lectures.
        It seems obvious to me, that many friends I have known did not
        fulfull their destiny, and I've had countless chance meetings. In the
        spiritual world all is "One," and there is not freedom there, but in
        this world we have freedom. God knows what the Universe has
        sacrificed to give us that freedom. (Additionally, RS has indicated
        that individuals who die in an accident as a result of human error,
        or as caused by Ahriman, will have their karma cleared. Obviously,
        25,000 people who die in a volcanic eruption were not meant to die.)

        Only get to that point where you love humanity, and the tears and the
        smiles upon his/her beautiful, godly countenance. :( :)

        [It's your dramatist speaking.]
        Martha



        Thank you,

        Martha
        --- In anthroposophy@y..., Bill <bmacro@l...> wrote:
        > There are no accidents. There is no blame. We are here to be
        responsible
        > for who we are and what we do, both on the individual level and the
        > world level. We are here to experience pain and suffering. That
        doesn't
        > mean we forego compassion and love of others. "Thou know thyself"
        and
        > "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
        >
        > Another point is how do we know that something that occurs through
        our
        > sense perceptions here in the physical world has the same
        consequences
        > or the same origins in the spiritual world. We don't. Steiner does
        say that.
        >
        > All of the Karmic Relationship series is available except for III
        and
        > VII. V may also be unavailable, but I was told by Steiner College
        > Bookstore they could order it for me. I think the APress is gearing
        up
        > to reissue VII. I don't know about the others. I would start with
        > Anthroposophical Press and go from there. Ask around.
        >
        > I suggest "Manifestations of Karma", along with some others, in
        the
        > meantime.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > studioeditions2002 wrote:
        >
        > >I am new to this group and would like to comment on a few messages
        in
        > >regard to karmic responsibility, including Rudolf Steiner's quote
        on
        > >accidents as self-caused.
        > >
        > >Here we are touching on a fundamental problem of "anthroposophical
        > >relationships," that is, a lack of sympathy for one another due to
        > >knowledge of karma as the root cause of much suffering,
        originating
        > >with the self to punish the self for past misdeeds or force
        changes
        > >on the self for the future.
        > >
        > >First of all, not all accidents are self-caused, there can be pure
        > >accidents, otherwise there would be no elements of chance or
        freedom.
        > >Secondly, we cannot easily presume to know whether an accident is
        > >self-caused or not, this would require profound understanding of
        the
        > >individual who suffers the accident. Frequently, deep interest in
        the
        > >other is lacking in anthroposophical relationships as the schooled
        > >anthroposophist is arrogant.
        > >
        > >Finally, that measure of warm sympathy for the suffering of the
        > >victim is far more important than a cold knowledge of whether the
        > >accident was self-caused or not.
        > >
        > >Or, the next time you help a person up from a slick sidewalk who
        has
        > >just broken a bone, will the first thoughts in your head be
        "Steiner
        > >said..." ?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
        > >Unsubscribe:
        > >anthroposophy-unsubscribe@y...
        > >List owner: anthroposophy-owner@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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