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Re: [anthroposophy] To Danny

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  • danifyou@tv.videotron.ca
    ... From: luciferius2002 Hi Danny! Let me come back to our groundbound basic investigations when the invasion of the interstellar
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 5, 2002
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      -----Original Message-----
      From: "luciferius2002"<luciferius2002@...>
      Hi Danny!
      Let me come back to our groundbound basic investigations when the
      invasion of the interstellar beings is over.

      Regards,
      L
      ]]

      At the most appropriate time simply do so.

      D

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    • luciferius2002
      PoF ch.9 second edition 1 For our cognition, the concept of the tree is conditioned by the percept of the tree. When faced with a particular percept, I can
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 10, 2002
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        PoF ch.9 second edition

        1
        For our cognition, the concept of the tree is conditioned by the
        percept of the tree. When faced with a particular percept, I can
        select only one particular concept from the general system of
        concepts. The connection of concept and percept is determined by
        thinking, indirectly and objectively, at the level of the percept.
        This connection of the percept with its concept is recognized after
        the act of perceiving; but that they do belong together lies in the
        very nature of things.

        2
        The process looks different when we examine knowledge, or rather the
        relation of man to the world which arises within knowledge. In the
        preceding chapters the attempt has been made to show that an
        unprejudiced observation of this relationship is able to throw light
        on its nature. A proper understanding of this observation leads to
        the insight that thinking can be directly discerned as a self-
        contained entity. Those who find it necessary for the explanation of
        thinking as such to invoke something else, such as physical brain
        processes or unconscious spiritual processes lying behind the
        conscious thinking which they observe, fail to recognize what an
        unprejudiced observation of thinking yields. When we observe our
        thinking, we live during this observation directly within a self-
        supporting, spiritual web of being. Indeed, we can even say that if
        we would grasp the essential nature of spirit in the form in which
        it presents itself most immediately to man, we need only look at the
        self-sustaining activity of thinking.

        3
        When we are contemplating thinking itself, two things coincide which
        otherwise must always appear apart, namely, concept and percept. If
        we fail to see this, we shall be unable to regard the concepts which
        we have elaborated with respect to percepts as anything but shadowy
        copies of these percepts, and we shall take the percepts as
        presenting to us the true reality. We shall, further, build up for
        ourselves a metaphysical world after the pattern of the perceived
        world; we shall call this a world of atoms, a world of will, a world
        of unconscious spirit, or whatever, each according to his own kind
        of mental imagery. And we shall fail to notice that all the time we
        have been doing nothing but building up a metaphysical world
        hypothetically, after the pattern of our own world of percepts. But
        if we recognize what is present in thinking, we shall realize that
        in the percept we have only one part of the reality and that the
        other part which belongs to it, and which first allows the full
        reality to appear, is experienced by us in the permeation of the
        percept by thinking. We shall see in this element that appears in
        our consciousness as thinking, not a shadowy copy of some reality,
        but a self-sustaining spiritual essence. And of this we shall be
        able to say that it is brought into consciousness for us through
        intuition. Intuition is the conscious experience -- in pure spirit --
        of a purely spiritual content. Only through an intuition can the
        essence of thinking be grasped.

        4
        Only if, by means of unprejudiced observation, one has wrestled
        through to the recognition of this truth of the intuitive essence of
        thinking will one succeed in clearing the way for an insight into
        the psyche-physical organization of man. One will see that this
        organization can have no effect on the essential nature of thinking.
        At first sight this seems to be contradicted by patently obvious
        facts. For ordinary experience, human thinking makes its appearance
        only in connection with, and by means of, this organization. This
        form of its appearance comes so much to the fore that its real
        significance cannot be grasped unless we recognize that in the
        essence of thinking this organization plays no part whatever. Once
        we appreciate this, we can no longer fail to notice what a peculiar
        kind of relationship there is between the human organization and the
        thinking itself. For this organization contributes nothing to the
        essential nature of thinking, but recedes whenever the activity of
        thinking makes its appearance; it suspends its own activity, it
        yields ground; and on the ground thus left empty, the thinking
        appears. The essence which is active in thinking has a twofold
        function: first, it represses the activity of the human
        organization; secondly, it steps into its place. For even the
        former, the repression of the physical organization, is a
        consequence of the activity of thinking, and more particularly of
        that part of this activity which prepares the manifestation of
        thinking. From this one can see in what sense thinking finds its
        counterpart in the physical organization. When we see this, we can
        no longer misjudge the significance of this counterpart of the
        activity of thinking. When we walk over soft ground, our feet leave
        impressions in the soil. We shall not be tempted to say that these
        footprints have been formed from below by the forces of the ground.
        We shall not attribute to these forces any share in the production
        of the footprints. Just as little, if we observe the essential
        nature of thinking without prejudice, shall we attribute any share
        in that nature to the traces in the physical organism which arise
        through the fact that the thinking prepares its manifestation by
        means of the body.

        5
        An important question, however, emerges here. If the human
        organization has no part in the essential nature of thinking, what
        is the significance of this organization within the whole nature of
        man? Now, what happens in this organization through the thinking has
        indeed nothing to do with the essence of thinking, but it has a
        great deal to do with the arising of the ego-consciousness out of
        this thinking. Thinking, in its own essential nature, certainly
        contains the real I or ego, but it does not contain the ego-
        consciousness. To see this we have but to observe thinking with an
        open mind. The "I" is to be found within the thinking; the "ego-
        consciousness" arises through the traces which the activity of
        thinking engraves upon our general consciousness, in the sense
        explained above. (The ego-consciousness thus arises through the
        bodily organization. However, this must not be taken to imply that
        the ego-consciousness, once it has arisen, remains dependent on the
        bodily organization. Once arisen, it is taken up into thinking and
        shares henceforth in thinking's spiritual being.)

        6
        The "ego-consciousness" is built upon the human organization. Out of
        the latter flow our acts of will. Following the lines of the
        preceding argument, we can gain insight into the connections between
        thinking, conscious I, and act of will, only by observing first how
        an act of will issues from the human organization.
      • danifyou@tv.videotron.ca
        Hi L, I say the first one has to do more with pure fluid gestures, operations, moves, supersensible deeds of the I in relation-thinking clear
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 12, 2002
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          Hi L,

          I say the first one has to do more with pure
          fluid gestures, operations, moves, supersensible deeds of the 'I' in relation-thinking clear consciousness-ego-consciousness in back
          and forth "triangulation" if I may say of the triadic reality 3 dimensionality
          'Human Method': percept--->concept--->thinking=
          a 1 weaving-entrance-encounter-communion-
          partaking-embrace to the "that which IS".

          While in the second edition Rudolf Steiner
          goes "geometrical" looking around "hitting"
          the surrounding world as to how the physical organization and the thinking-system unity "hit" each others via mutual activity-relays, yet cleary stating the self-sustaining thinking activity, the movement of ideas...
          This second edition section/detail more the different parts of the man as to what they do and how, while first edition concentrate on the gestures... He was probably looking more at himself moving in the spirit in this first edition I would call 'pure thinking supersensible moves', while in second is more seen of the landscape in which these moves are operated and which part of you does act-come-in-activity-react....

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "luciferius2002"<luciferius2002@...>

          PoF ch.9 second edition

          1
          For our cognition, the concept of the tree is conditioned by the
          percept of the tree. When faced with a particular percept, I can
          select only one particular concept from the general system of
          concepts. The connection of concept and percept is determined by
          thinking, indirectly and objectively, at the level of the percept.
          This connection of the percept with its concept is recognized after
          the act of perceiving; but that they do belong together lies in the
          very nature of things.

          2
          The process looks different when we examine knowledge, or rather the
          relation of man to the world which arises within knowledge. In the
          preceding chapters the attempt has been made to show that an
          unprejudiced observation of this relationship is able to throw light
          on its nature. A proper understanding of this observation leads to
          the insight that thinking can be directly discerned as a self-
          contained entity. Those who find it necessary for the explanation of
          thinking as such to invoke something else, such as physical brain
          processes or unconscious spiritual processes lying behind the
          conscious thinking which they observe, fail to recognize what an
          unprejudiced observation of thinking yields. When we observe our
          thinking, we live during this observation directly within a self-
          supporting, spiritual web of being. Indeed, we can even say that if
          we would grasp the essential nature of spirit in the form in which
          it presents itself most immediately to man, we need only look at the
          self-sustaining activity of thinking.

          3
          When we are contemplating thinking itself, two things coincide which
          otherwise must always appear apart, namely, concept and percept. If
          we fail to see this, we shall be unable to regard the concepts which
          we have elaborated with respect to percepts as anything but shadowy
          copies of these percepts, and we shall take the percepts as
          presenting to us the true reality. We shall, further, build up for
          ourselves a metaphysical world after the pattern of the perceived
          world; we shall call this a world of atoms, a world of will, a world
          of unconscious spirit, or whatever, each according to his own kind
          of mental imagery. And we shall fail to notice that all the time we
          have been doing nothing but building up a metaphysical world
          hypothetically, after the pattern of our own world of percepts. But
          if we recognize what is present in thinking, we shall realize that
          in the percept we have only one part of the reality and that the
          other part which belongs to it, and which first allows the full
          reality to appear, is experienced by us in the permeation of the
          percept by thinking. We shall see in this element that appears in
          our consciousness as thinking, not a shadowy copy of some reality,
          but a self-sustaining spiritual essence. And of this we shall be
          able to say that it is brought into consciousness for us through
          intuition. Intuition is the conscious experience -- in pure spirit --
          of a purely spiritual content. Only through an intuition can the
          essence of thinking be grasped.

          4
          Only if, by means of unprejudiced observation, one has wrestled
          through to the recognition of this truth of the intuitive essence of
          thinking will one succeed in clearing the way for an insight into
          the psyche-physical organization of man. One will see that this
          organization can have no effect on the essential nature of thinking.
          At first sight this seems to be contradicted by patently obvious
          facts. For ordinary experience, human thinking makes its appearance
          only in connection with, and by means of, this organization. This
          form of its appearance comes so much to the fore that its real
          significance cannot be grasped unless we recognize that in the
          essence of thinking this organization plays no part whatever. Once
          we appreciate this, we can no longer fail to notice what a peculiar
          kind of relationship there is between the human organization and the
          thinking itself. For this organization contributes nothing to the
          essential nature of thinking, but recedes whenever the activity of
          thinking makes its appearance; it suspends its own activity, it
          yields ground; and on the ground thus left empty, the thinking
          appears. The essence which is active in thinking has a twofold
          function: first, it represses the activity of the human
          organization; secondly, it steps into its place. For even the
          former, the repression of the physical organization, is a
          consequence of the activity of thinking, and more particularly of
          that part of this activity which prepares the manifestation of
          thinking. From this one can see in what sense thinking finds its
          counterpart in the physical organization. When we see this, we can
          no longer misjudge the significance of this counterpart of the
          activity of thinking. When we walk over soft ground, our feet leave
          impressions in the soil. We shall not be tempted to say that these
          footprints have been formed from below by the forces of the ground.
          We shall not attribute to these forces any share in the production
          of the footprints. Just as little, if we observe the essential
          nature of thinking without prejudice, shall we attribute any share
          in that nature to the traces in the physical organism which arise
          through the fact that the thinking prepares its manifestation by
          means of the body.

          5
          An important question, however, emerges here. If the human
          organization has no part in the essential nature of thinking, what
          is the significance of this organization within the whole nature of
          man? Now, what happens in this organization through the thinking has
          indeed nothing to do with the essence of thinking, but it has a
          great deal to do with the arising of the ego-consciousness out of
          this thinking. Thinking, in its own essential nature, certainly
          contains the real I or ego, but it does not contain the ego-
          consciousness. To see this we have but to observe thinking with an
          open mind. The "I" is to be found within the thinking; the "ego-
          consciousness" arises through the traces which the activity of
          thinking engraves upon our general consciousness, in the sense
          explained above. (The ego-consciousness thus arises through the
          bodily organization. However, this must not be taken to imply that
          the ego-consciousness, once it has arisen, remains dependent on the
          bodily organization. Once arisen, it is taken up into thinking and
          shares henceforth in thinking's spiritual being.)

          6
          The "ego-consciousness" is built upon the human organization. Out of
          the latter flow our acts of will. Following the lines of the
          preceding argument, we can gain insight into the connections between
          thinking, conscious I, and act of will, only by observing first how
          an act of will issues from the human organization.



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