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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

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  • Morgan Vierheller
    Jeff, Carol, Anyone else:) I have just read the St. John s Imagination in The Four Seasons and the Archangels and it brought up something that relates to our
    Message 1 of 27 , May 31, 2002
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      Jeff, Carol, Anyone else:)

      I have just read the St. John's Imagination in The Four Seasons and the Archangels and it brought up something that relates to our question.  First; are WE not such beings as Carol describes?
      Do we not use the material available to use to gain a material form
      for each of our "lives?"  Do we ensoul a physical form or do the three arise together (body, soul, spirit)?
      And, secondly, if the first assumption is possible, could we not go to another planet assume whatever shape is possible and have that kind of experience.
      Are we inextricably tied to this planet?
      As I write this, I look at my bookshelf and see Spiritual Beings
      "staring' me back in the face daring me to look inside and answer my own question.

      It is somehow more beneficial to have a conversation.

      Blessings (I hope I haven't made a great muddle)

      Morgan

    • Carol
      Jeff, I m not aware of anything that has been proven outside of occult claims; it seems to me that all occult claims require a proof that will always be
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2002
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        Jeff,

        I'm not aware of anything that has been proven outside of
        occult claims; it seems to me that all occult claims require
        a proof that will always be unsatisfactory to those looking
        with modern scientific filters.

        But I don't think it is hard to imagine that material is the
        product of spirit; in fact I'm sure that you have your own
        forms of proof that material isn't the starting point of
        creative activity. So, if you've got those proofs in your
        back pocket, link them up with the idea that non-material
        beings from other planets are a few steps ahead of us in
        those regards.

        Of course it is also easy to imagine material beings flying
        material crafts across the universe; it's just hard to
        believe all of these people who are spending time with the
        aliens at night aren't interacting with beings working in the
        lurkings of the subconscious...

        they both must be accurate descriptions of something...

        carol
        --- jla <pacbay@...> wrote:
        > Carol,
        >
        > I know this is the assertion of some but nowhere is this
        > proven outside of occult claims. I have heard this before
        > from some AP's but wonder how such a being can create
        > something that continues to exist in material form for
        > decades or be so solid that humans can both interact with
        > such "material forms" it but travel in it as we would a
        > airplane.
        >
        > Where does this information come from below and are there
        > some examples you can point to in history.
        >
        > Jeff
        >
        >
        > The beings that are presenting themselves as from other
        > planets are also very capable of creating material forms
        > that
        > we can see/touch/feel/smell.... And while the specific
        > material form they present probably isn't from another
        > planet, the beings themselves are and the consciousness
        > that
        > they wish to spead is also, I think...
        >
        >
        >


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      • jla
        Occult things can be proven but not all things. If someone says man is composed of an astral body, etheric body and so on, then one can meditate and work into
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2002
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          Occult things can be proven but not all things. If someone says man is composed of an astral body, etheric body and so on, then one can meditate and work into the experience and perception of these bodies.  But is someone says I can turn the metal iron into gold, literally, then some proof will be necessary. If someone says UFO and alien phenomena is the product of deceptive advanced Beings then there should be some proof in the evidence. Unfortunately what is evidence is not just perception and reports by one person per incident. If 20 people see the same thing and its recorded on film that is different. A step further would be, of course, when a material object of unknown composition and features is discovered around an incident. This is very hard to explain within the deception model. Spiritual beings do not leave material evidence of their activity. They can leave traces like an lightening strike or the formation clouds but for the most part, their influences leave impressions not material substances or technically devices.( If one says that all of nature is the result of the activity of spiritual beings that is different because the material substances must be pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot see how this model explains the great number of reports or even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.
           
          Jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Carol
          Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 7:23 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

          Jeff,

          I'm not aware of anything that has been proven outside of
          occult claims; it seems to me that all occult claims require
          a proof that will always be unsatisfactory to those looking
          with modern scientific filters. 

          But I don't think it is hard to imagine that material is the
          product of spirit; in fact I'm sure that you have your own
          forms of proof that material isn't the starting point of
          creative activity.  So, if you've got those proofs in your
          back pocket, link them up with the idea that non-material
          beings from other planets are a few steps ahead of us in
          those regards.

          Of course it is also easy to imagine material beings flying
          material crafts across the universe; it's just hard to
          believe all of these people who are spending time with the
          aliens at night aren't interacting with beings working in the
          lurkings of the subconscious...

          they both must be accurate descriptions of something...

          carol
          --- jla <pacbay@...> wrote:
          > Carol,
          >
          > I know this is the assertion of some but nowhere is this
          > proven outside of occult claims. I have heard this before
          > from some AP's but wonder how such a being can create
          > something that continues to exist in material form for
          > decades or be so solid that humans can both interact with
          > such "material forms" it but travel in it as we would a
          > airplane.
          >
          > Where does this information come from below and are there
          > some examples you can point to in history.
          >
          > Jeff
          >
          >
          >   The beings that  are presenting themselves as from other
          >   planets are also very capable of creating material forms
          > that
          >   we can see/touch/feel/smell....  And while the specific
          >   material form they present probably isn't from another
          >   planet, the beings themselves are and the consciousness
          > that
          >   they wish to spead is also, I think...
          >
          >
          >


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        • Carol
          ( If one says that all of nature is the ... I don t see how this model is attempting to explain how we float. What do you mean about material substance having
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2002
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            ( If one says that all of nature is the
            > result of the activity of spiritual beings that is
            > different because the material substances must be
            > pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot
            > see how this model explains the great number of reports or
            > even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or
            > saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.

            I don't see how this model is attempting to explain how we
            float.

            What do you mean about material substance having to pre-exist
            for 'them' to be active within...This isn't as Cartesian as
            it sounds is it? I assume I'm misreading the idea there. I
            never thought about the Big Bang happening as a purely
            'material' event and then spiritual being deciding to occupy
            the results.

            To me it's just not a strange idea at all to think that there
            are beings from other 'planets' communicating with us in a
            language that we can understand. I don't have to picture
            them flying through space to appreciate the contact, but I
            can. It doesn't make a big difference. But for me it makes
            more sense to imagine the beings epistemologically working
            towards those earthlings who have signed up for some very
            specific rides...


            Carol


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          • jla
            What is meant by material substance pre-existing relates not to the distant evolutionary past but now. For a being to materialize and maintain its form on
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2002
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              What is meant by material substance pre-existing relates not to the distant evolutionary past but now. For a being to materialize and maintain its form on earth (or on another material planet)  a long and complex process is needed. No being that I have heard reference to can just decide to materialize a body or object and have it maintain its form in time. By this I mean, some yogic and magical practices enable someone to materialize something physical but it will last only as long as the concentrated will and image is held by the practioner. In the case of paranormal events and objects, this is not the case. The Beings and objects are clearly functioning in space and time without using occult means to sustain it. This can only lead to the conclusion that the objects (spaceships or technological objects) were manufactured or that the being went through a birth process and are living as organic or quasi organic beings.
               
              jeff
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Carol
              Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 12:25 AM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

              ( If one says that all of nature is the
              > result of the activity of spiritual beings that is
              > different because the material substances must be
              > pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot
              > see how this model explains the great number of reports or
              > even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or
              > saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.

              I don't see how this model is attempting to explain how we
              float. 

              What do you mean about material substance having to pre-exist
              for 'them' to be active within...This isn't as Cartesian as
              it sounds is it? I assume I'm misreading the idea there.  I
              never thought about the Big Bang happening as a purely
              'material' event and then spiritual being deciding to occupy
              the results.

              To me it's just not a strange idea at all to think that there
              are beings from other 'planets' communicating with us in a
              language that we can understand.  I don't have to picture
              them flying through space to appreciate the contact, but I
              can.  It doesn't make a big difference.  But for me it makes
              more sense to imagine the beings epistemologically working
              towards those earthlings who have signed up for some very
              specific rides...


              Carol


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            • elaineupton2001
              Hello Morgan, Jeff, all of this thread, It seems your concern (Morgan) is with the possibility of physical beings on Mars, etc., and also you want to know
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 3, 2002
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                Hello Morgan, Jeff, all of this thread,

                It seems your concern (Morgan) is with the possibility of physical
                beings on Mars, etc., and also you want to know about beings in other
                solar/stellar systems. On the second question, I will pass for now.
                On the first question of the physicality of beings on Mars, etc. I
                will not pose as an authority, but I know of no where that Steiner
                speaks of physical beings on these planet, physical in the human
                sense, that is. Also, the explorations of scientists on Mars are not
                so far leading to any kind of evidence of physical beings (at least
                not in the ordinary human sense of physical). Earth is Earth, with
                its own kind of corporeality and its beings having our own kind of
                corporeality and evolution. Mars, Venus, etc. are something else.

                Jeff, what you are saying about Mars beings suffering a lot of
                violence and thus the appearance of the Buddha--Steiner talks about
                this and also says (somewhere) that the soul that was St. Francis has
                gone to Mars to help bring Peace. But these, again, are not corporeal
                beings in the Earthly human sense. Mars is a different atmosphere.

                I guess it might come down to what one means by "physical." It seems
                quite illogical to assume that Mars, for example, with a very
                different atmosphere and a very different mission is going to have
                beings with the same corporeality as Earth beings. So, again I say,
                physical in the Earthly human sense seems illogical to me. Besides
                that, I do see that Steiners' work is full of references to other
                beings on other planets and none are referred to in any way that
                would suggest an Earthly physicality.

                Morgan, I tend, if I understand, to agree with your roomate, although
                I hope my answer will not be heard as "somewhat gingerly." But then,
                I've been eating garlic cloves on my vegetarian pizza today, so my
                answer could be affected by that! (smile)

                Best wishes,
                elaine.

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., Morgan Vierheller <mrgnsms@e...> wrote:
                > Dear Jeff;
                >
                > Thank you for catching the gist of my query.
                > Indeed I was asking about material beings.
                > My room mate (also an anthroposophist) stated somewhat gingerly that
                > Steiner said that ours was the only planet inhabited by material
                > beings. I still find this incredible. I was referring to planets
                in
                > other solar systems. I am quite aware of planetary beings that
                inhabit
                > other planes.
                >
                > Blessings;
                > Morgan
                >
                > jla wrote:
                >
                > > Though I may be mistaken, I had a sense that this question had
                more to
                > > do with the possibility of material or physically based beings
                that
                > > may inhabit the planets.
              • elaineupton2001
                Hello Morgan, carol, jeff, all of this thread, No, Morgan, you have not created a muddle, at least not for me. I like your questions and find them important
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 3, 2002
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                  Hello Morgan, carol, jeff, all of this thread,

                  No, Morgan, you have not created a muddle, at least not for me. I
                  like your questions and find them important (even if I am tending to
                  disagree with you, and even if I don't quite understand what carol is
                  saying...I think I am coming from a similar place as Jeff, but then I
                  think we are all going to meet somewhere if we continue to think
                  about this all lovingly and clearly...smile))

                  Morgan, I love your question of looking in the mirror to see what
                  beings are there in the one reflected. Behind your question I sense
                  that you are referring to our interstellar travel in the existence
                  between death and re-birth? Is that so. Steiner tells us of our
                  traveling through various realms, various planets, and we can go as
                  far as our Earthly deeds or acheivements allow, and so some who are
                  pure in heart can go all the way to the Sun before incarnating again.
                  Others may get stuck at the moon phase, and some--many--have a hard
                  time in Kamaloca, because there is no longer a body with which to
                  fulfill Earthly lusts, attachments, desires, and so the experience
                  can be hellish, and those in that place get stuck and don't get very
                  far before reincarnating. Now, all this says that we have to let go
                  of the Earthly materiality, the Earthly body, whether we like it or
                  not. The etheric substance is still there, but the dense corporeality
                  must go, though some want to hold on to it. Thus, if I look in the
                  mirror now, what I am seeing, if I can see at all (smile) is a being
                  who has traveled among other beings, traveled outside any former
                  bodily (material) existence. Also, what i am seeing is a being even
                  now inhabited by angels, non-corporeal beings who are working in my
                  soul, and in my body (liver, kidneys, spleen, etc.).

                  Steiner makes it clear, over and over, that we Earth beings have a
                  karma with Earth (except in certain special cases, like the one I
                  mentioned before of St. Francis, that soul, no longer in Eartly
                  corporeal form, taking up residence on Mars in order to work for
                  peace. But most of us have a karma to return to Earth and to help
                  fulfill the mission of Earth, to go through the Seven bodies--
                  Physical, Etheric,Astral, Ego, and then three higher bodies which
                  transform backwards into the Astral, Etheric, and Physical, the last
                  act, after ages perhaps, being that of the Seventh of the higher
                  members reaching back to transform the physical, which is like the
                  Resurrection. But we are --most of us, at least--are not there yet.
                  In the lectures on the Apocalypse of St. John, Steiner clearly says
                  that our present mission, that is for most of us, is to transform the
                  Astral body, let the Christened Ego transform the Astral body. And we
                  have a long way to go through the other stages of reaching down to
                  the Etheric and Physical to transform them. This is the mission of
                  Earth peoples, a very different mission that beings on other planets.
                  And yet, beings on other planets help us, accompany us, and even
                  inhabit us, work in our bodies and souls, more or less consciously,
                  depending on our development. So, we have a specific and unique
                  mission on EArth, and yet our mission is connected to and dependent
                  upon the mission of beings on other planets. We have a karma with
                  Earth and yet other beings (angelic, archangelic and so on through
                  Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones, work with us, work with the folk souls,
                  with the plants, animals, etc., with individuals, move within us).

                  So, we are not separate from the non-physical, yet the peculiar
                  physicality of Earth is our karma and our mission.

                  Think of the prophet Isaiah's words (and that amazing gift of the
                  Hebrew people): "Yet in my flesh shall I see God." There's a complex
                  mystery there, something very unique to Earth.

                  Yet, we are not to be lost in materiality, but to work on
                  transforming it, and do exercises that help thin the veils between
                  the worlds.

                  OUr bodies are instruments, important ones, unique in all the cosmos,
                  **and yet**, we are also intimately related to and dependent upon the
                  existence of other non-corporeal beings.

                  Be well in your mirrors,
                  elaine
                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/2/2002 1:16:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******We ve been over this before, Jeff. You re imposing a dualism here. Read the work of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 4, 2002
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                    In a message dated 6/2/2002 1:16:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pacbay@... writes:


                    If someone says UFO and alien phenomena is the product of deceptive advanced Beings then there should be some proof in the evidence. Unfortunately what is evidence is not just perception and reports by one person per incident. If 20 people see the same thing and its recorded on film that is different. A step further would be, of course, when a material object of unknown composition and features is discovered around an incident. This is very hard to explain within the deception model. Spiritual beings do not leave material evidence of their activity.


                    *******We've been over this before, Jeff. You're imposing a dualism here. Read the work of Constable, John Keel, and Jaques Vallee for the evidence, especially Constable, whose experiments can be and have been duplicated. Apparitions of "Mary" above the church in Zeitoun, Egypt, in 1968 were seen by hundreds and photographed. Does that make her "material"?
                       As I said to you before, it's good to recall that the condensation of energy forms into materiality is the natural role of Ahrimanic beings. The renegade ones are superb at it.

                    Dr. Starman
                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/2/2002 11:37:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ******Not true. I have some of an offering materialized by Sai Baba, given me by one who
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 4, 2002
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                      In a message dated 6/2/2002 11:37:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pacbay@... writes:


                      What is meant by material substance pre-existing relates not to the distant evolutionary past but now. For a being to materialize and maintain its form on earth (or on another material planet)  a long and complex process is needed. No being that I have heard reference to can just decide to materialize a body or object and have it maintain its form in time.


                      *******Christian Rosenkreutz appeared as Saint Germain for centuries.

                      By this I mean, some yogic and magical practices enable someone to materialize something physical but it will last only as long as the concentrated will and image is held by the practioner.



                      ******Not true. I have some of an offering materialized by Sai Baba, given me by one who witnessed its materialization.

                      In the case of paranormal events and objects, this is not the case. The Beings and

                      objects are clearly functioning in space and time without using occult means to sustain it.



                      *******I'd like to know what "occult means" means and how you determine what UFOs use to materialize and demnaterialize, and that it's this or that and not something else.

                      This can only lead to the conclusion that the objects (spaceships or technological

                      objects) were manufactured or that the being went through a birth process and are living as organic or quasi organic beings.


                      jeff

                      *******The beings in UFOs must have been born because their ships materialize? Who says?

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Carol
                      To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 12:25 AM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings


                      ( If one says that all of nature is the
                      > result of the activity of spiritual beings that is
                      > different because the material substances must be
                      > pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot
                      > see how this model explains the great number of reports or
                      > even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or
                      > saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.

                      I don't see how this model is attempting to explain how we
                      float. 

                      What do you mean about material substance having to pre-exist
                      for 'them' to be active within...This isn't as Cartesian as
                      it sounds is it? I assume I'm misreading the idea there.  I
                      never thought about the Big Bang happening as a purely
                      'material' event and then spiritual being deciding to occupy
                      the results.

                      To me it's just not a strange idea at all to think that there
                      are beings from other 'planets' communicating with us in a
                      language that we can understand.  I don't have to picture
                      them flying through space to appreciate the contact, but I
                      can.  It doesn't make a big difference.  But for me it makes
                      more sense to imagine the beings epistemologically working
                      towards those earthlings who have signed up for some very
                      specific rides...


                      Carol



                    • jla
                      Valentina, To take this subject somewhat out of the ethers- during my younger days (10-15 years ago) a very close friend was an interviewer and part time
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 4, 2002
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                        Valentina,
                         
                        To take this subject somewhat out of the ethers- during my younger days (10-15 years ago) a very close friend was an interviewer and part time researcher of paranormal subjects. He was able to interview at least two  individuals would had first hand experience in being on board a UFO in full day consciousness and not in some dreamy state. The ship took off, they saw the earth below and traveled outside the earth's atmosphere. They encountered and talked to human looking individuals who looked like any of us and they were highly intelligent, compassionate, and had a sense of humor. These examples are just two that I know of personally and there are hundreds of others. He also has a friend who is a retired Lt. Col in the Air Force and has interviewed and researched a case of an individual who has had numerous first hand encounters (and close up pictures of ships near the ground and slightly above the ground-not some distinct blob of light). He investigated this case for several years and is convinced of its validity and the photographic evidence is as clear as a picture in Time magazine cover.  All these individuals have military experience in the 50's (Air Force and Green Berets) and are serious people with common sense.
                         
                        How this category of case reflects upon occult mysteries and the 8th Sphere dilemma is beyond me.
                         
                         
                        Jeff
                         
                         
                        -----
                      • jla
                        Elaine, The problem indeed come up as what is physical or organic. There are numerous references in occult, paranormal and mystical sources of a transitional
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 4, 2002
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                          Elaine,
                           
                          The problem indeed come up as what is "physical" or organic. There are numerous references in occult, paranormal and mystical sources of a transitional state between the physical and etheric which is semi physical - not organic based yet an organism composed of elements from the chemical ethers and with density to it. This could be the situation on other planets. It is also said that humanity has been split up- with some going to Venus, Mercury and Jupiter (?) in the past and some going to the Earth. If this is the case, and they are working on the 9th principle (physical/atma) then there has to be some foundation for physicality or they would not be humans per se because they have not evolved the "physical principle" during Earth evolution. Ummmm?
                           
                          Jeff
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:42 PM
                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                          Hello Morgan, Jeff, all of this thread,

                          It seems your concern (Morgan) is with the possibility of physical
                          beings on Mars, etc., and also you want to know about beings in other
                          solar/stellar systems. On the second question, I will pass for now.
                          On the first question of the physicality of beings on Mars, etc. I
                          will not pose as an authority, but I know of no where that Steiner
                          speaks of physical beings on these planet, physical in the human
                          sense, that is. Also, the explorations of scientists on Mars are not
                          so far leading to any kind of evidence of physical beings (at least
                          not in the ordinary human sense of physical). Earth is Earth, with
                          its own kind of corporeality and its beings having our own kind of
                          corporeality and evolution. Mars, Venus, etc. are something else.

                        • jla
                          Good enough. Jeff ... From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:15 AM Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: A
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 6, 2002
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                            Good enough.
                             
                            Jeff
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:15 AM
                            Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                            Jeff,
                            the "close encounters" chapter of UFO's tale , till the farthest of the "abduction" cases has to be managed , obviously, in the most prudent way possible, but, also in this case all we are saying on this thread about the "materialize" and "dematerialize" phenomena . the 8th sphere , the physical-etheric-astral continuum and so on should be enough to begin a kind of conceptual work about the whole matter.
                            What else? we are all free human beings and no doctor prescribed  to you the belief in Steiner's or Constable's insights and to me or Starman the "spacecraft from other planets" one.....  
                            Andrea
                             
                            -----
                          • jla
                            Elaine, I just got to this email and wanted to say, it s very well presented and a solid overview of the issues involved. jeff ... Morgan, I love your question
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 13, 2002
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                              Elaine,
                               
                              I just got to this email and wanted to say, it's very well presented and a solid overview of the issues involved.
                               
                              jeff
                              -----
                              Morgan, I love your question of looking in the mirror to see what
                              beings are there in the one reflected. Behind your question I sense
                              that you are referring to our interstellar travel in the existence
                              between death and re-birth? Is that so. Steiner tells us of our
                              traveling through various realms, various planets, and we can go as
                              far as our Earthly deeds or acheivements allow, and so some who are
                              pure in heart can go all the way to the Sun before incarnating again.
                              Others may get stuck at the moon phase, and some--many--have a hard
                              time in Kamaloca, because there is no longer a body with which to
                              fulfill Earthly lusts, attachments, desires, and so the experience
                              can be hellish, and those in that place get stuck and don't get very
                              far before reincarnating. Now, all this says that we have to let go
                              of the Earthly materiality, the Earthly body, whether we like it or
                              not. The etheric substance is still there, but the dense corporeality
                              must go, though some want to hold on to it. Thus, if I look in the
                              mirror now, what I am seeing, if I can see at all (smile) is a being
                              who has  traveled among other beings, traveled outside any former
                              bodily (material) existence. Also, what i am seeing is a being even
                              now inhabited by angels, non-corporeal beings who are working in my
                              soul, and in my body (liver, kidneys, spleen, etc.).

                              Steiner makes it clear, over and over, that we Earth beings have a
                              karma with Earth (except in certain special cases, like the one I
                              mentioned before of St. Francis, that soul, no longer in Eartly
                              corporeal form, taking up residence on Mars in order to work for
                              peace. But most of us have a karma to return to Earth and to help
                              fulfill the mission of Earth, to go through the Seven bodies--
                              Physical, Etheric,Astral, Ego, and then three higher bodies which
                              transform backwards into the Astral, Etheric, and Physical, the last
                              act, after ages perhaps, being that of the Seventh of the higher
                              members reaching back to transform the physical, which is like the
                              Resurrection. But we are --most of us, at least--are not there yet.
                              In the lectures on the Apocalypse of St. John, Steiner clearly says
                              that our present mission, that is for most of us, is to transform the
                              Astral body, let the Christened Ego transform the Astral body. And we
                              have a long way to go  through the other stages of reaching down to
                              the Etheric and Physical to transform them. This is the mission of
                              Earth peoples, a very different mission that beings on other planets.
                              And yet, beings on other planets help us, accompany us, and even
                              inhabit us, work in our bodies and souls, more or less consciously,
                              depending on our development. So, we have a specific and unique
                              mission on EArth, and yet our mission is connected to and dependent
                              upon the mission of beings on other planets. We have a karma with
                              Earth and yet other beings (angelic, archangelic and so on through
                              Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones, work with us, work with the folk souls,
                              with the plants, animals, etc., with individuals, move within us).

                              So, we are not separate from the non-physical, yet the peculiar
                              physicality of Earth is our karma and our mission.

                              Think of the prophet Isaiah's words (and that amazing gift of the
                              Hebrew people): "Yet in my flesh shall I see God." There's a complex
                              mystery there, something very unique to Earth.

                              Yet, we are not to be lost in materiality, but to work on
                              transforming it, and do exercises that help thin the veils between
                              the worlds.

                              OUr bodies are instruments, important ones, unique in all the cosmos,
                              **and yet**, we are also intimately related to and dependent upon the
                              existence of other non-corporeal beings.

                              Be well in your mirrors,
                              elaine





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                            • ghamin
                              ... From: jla To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings Occult
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 13, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: jla
                                Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 1:29 PM
                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                Occult things can be proven but not all things. If someone says man is composed of an astral body, etheric body and so on, then one can meditate and work into the experience and perception of these bodies.  But is someone says I can turn the metal iron into gold, literally, then some proof will be necessary. If someone says UFO and alien phenomena is the product of deceptive advanced Beings then there should be some proof in the evidence. Unfortunately what is evidence is not just perception and reports by one person per incident. If 20 people see the same thing and its recorded on film that is different. A step further would be, of course, when a material object of unknown composition and features is discovered around an incident. This is very hard to explain within the deception model. Spiritual beings do not leave material evidence of their activity. They can leave traces like an lightening strike or the formation clouds but for the most part, their influences leave impressions not material substances or technically devices.( If one says that all of nature is the result of the activity of spiritual beings that is different because the material substances must be pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot see how this model explains the great number of reports or even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.
                                 
                                Jeff
                                 
                                 
                                Ghamin:
                                 
                                May I bring an excerpt from "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:
                                 
                                "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance.  Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance.  But people do not pursue this thought further.  They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system.  Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true.  The force of gravity decreases, but also truth.  What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe.  We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.  The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth.  ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange.  Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth.  And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic space."
                              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                ... *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 14, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghamin@... writes:

                                  > "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:
                                  >
                                  > "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance. Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance. But people do not pursue this thought further. They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system. Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true. The force of gravity decreases, but also truth. What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe. We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos. The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth. ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange. Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth. And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic
                                  > space."

                                  *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral, results only in a self-deception that excludes them from consciousness.

                                  Starman
                                • jla
                                  In a recent post you asked for examples of when you parrot or simply offer uncritical support of AP : Your agreement with the post below is such an example.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 14, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a recent post you asked for examples of when you parrot or simply offer uncritical support of AP :
                                     
                                    Your  agreement with the post below is such an example. Instead of questioning the nature and apparent differences  RS had about the "universal applications of laws of physics" in the universe; and seeking clarification for this ambiguous and somewhat dogmatic passage below, simple agreement is offered..
                                     
                                    For example:
                                     
                                    "We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.
                                    ....our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange."
                                     
                                     
                                    These statements will drive scientists crazy- not because they cannot understand it or may shock some but everything we have discovered from solar exploration continues to support our present theories of physics and astronomy. The effect of the moon's gravity and conditions other planets have been just as theorized to the best of our explorations to present. That there lies something more and spiritual behind the material has yet to be proven across the board  except by mystics and explorers like RS.(though some of us are convinced this exists) 
                                     
                                    One such example AP uses is that the Sun is really not a caldron of hot, superheated gases but a doorway to the etheric and  if we "went there" (impossible physically) we would find something much different. I pity the poor space traveler from earth who flies directly to the sun and expects not be burned alive as he or she gets closer.
                                     
                                    But how? What are the real bridges between the etheric, astral and physical domains? Perhaps he used extreme caution to shy away from a complete explanation due it applied dangers in unscrupulous labs of the present time or it was just not possible to describe it. In some lecture courses an attempt was made (like the Warmth Course or Study of Man) but a great deal of work needs to done before his descriptions are comprehended and applied by many.
                                     
                                       Jeff
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 7:10 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                    In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghamin@... writes:

                                    >  "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:

                                    > "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance.  Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance.  But people do not pursue this thought further.  They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system.  Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true.  The force of gravity decreases, but also truth.  What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe.  We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.  The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth.  ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange.  Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth.  And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic
                                    > space."

                                    *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral, results only in a self-deception that excludes them from consciousness.

                                    Starman

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                                  • Bill
                                    Jeff, The point is that in entering the physical body of the Sun it would have to be a spiritual entry without the physical body. As for modern scientific
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                      Jeff,

                                      The point is that in entering the physical body of the Sun it would have to be a spiritual entry without the physical body. As for modern scientific experimentation, Steiner says this, and I will quote instead of paraphrase to leave it pure.

                                      "I believe it was in 1908 that I made the following remarks in Nuremberg, in order to describe a very specific state of affairs. Modern scientific experimentation has led to substantial scientific progress. That can only be a good thing, for spiritual beings are at work in such experimentation. The scientist goes to the laboratory and pursues his work according to the routines and methods he has learnt. But a whole group of spiritual beings are working alongside him, and it is they who actually bring about results; for the person standing at the laboratory bench only creates the conditions which allow such results to emerge gradually. If that were not the case, things would not have developed as they have in modern times.
                                      Whenever discoveries are made they are clothed in exceedingly abstract formulae which others find incomprehensible. There is a yawning gap today between what people understand and what is produced by research, because people do not have access to the underlying spiritual impulses." RS, The Anthroposophic Movement, pp 116, RSP, 1993

                                      What Steiner doesn't specify here is which spirits are present. But it's a point of departure to a more spiritual consciousness.

                                      Bill

                                      jla wrote:
                                      In a recent post you asked for examples of when you parrot or simply offer uncritical support of AP :
                                       
                                      Your  agreement with the post below is such an example. Instead of questioning the nature and apparent differences  RS had about the "universal applications of laws of physics" in the universe; and seeking clarification for this ambiguous and somewhat dogmatic passage below, simple agreement is offered..
                                       
                                      For example:
                                       
                                      "We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.
                                      ....our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange."
                                       
                                       
                                      These statements will drive scientists crazy- not because they cannot understand it or may shock some but everything we have discovered from solar exploration continues to support our present theories of physics and astronomy. The effect of the moon's gravity and conditions other planets have been just as theorized to the best of our explorations to present. That there lies something more and spiritual behind the material has yet to be proven across the board  except by mystics and explorers like RS.(though some of us are convinced this exists) 
                                       
                                      One such example AP uses is that the Sun is really not a caldron of hot, superheated gases but a doorway to the etheric and  if we "went there" (impossible physically) we would find something much different. I pity the poor space traveler from earth who flies directly to the sun and expects not be burned alive as he or she gets closer.
                                       
                                      But how? What are the real bridges between the etheric, astral and physical domains? Perhaps he used extreme caution to shy away from a complete explanation due it applied dangers in unscrupulous labs of the present time or it was just not possible to describe it. In some lecture courses an attempt was made (like the Warmth Course or Study of Man) but a great deal of work needs to done before his descriptions are comprehended and applied by many.
                                       
                                         Jeff
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 7:10 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                      In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghamin@... writes:

                                      >  "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:

                                      > "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance.  Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance.  But people do not pursue this thought further.  They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system.  Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true.  The force of gravity decreases, but also truth.  What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe.  We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.  The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth.  ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange.  Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth.  And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic
                                      > space."

                                      *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral, results only in a self-deception that excludes them from consciousness.

                                      Starman

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                                    • jla
                                      There are only one group that it could possibly be and that would be the Ahrimanic unless their is another group not mentioned by RS for this type of
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                        There are only one group that it could possibly be and that would be the Ahrimanic unless their is another group not mentioned by RS for this type of influence. This is a good quote and one worth pondering.
                                         
                                        jeff
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Bill
                                        Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 11:11 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                        Jeff,

                                        The point is that in entering the physical body of the Sun it would have to be a spiritual entry without the physical body. As for modern scientific experimentation, Steiner says this, and I will quote instead of paraphrase to leave it pure.

                                        "I believe it was in 1908 that I made the following remarks in Nuremberg, in order to describe a very specific state of affairs. Modern scientific experimentation has led to substantial scientific progress. That can only be a good thing, for spiritual beings are at work in such experimentation. The scientist goes to the laboratory and pursues his work according to the routines and methods he has learnt. But a whole group of spiritual beings are working alongside him, and it is they who actually bring about results; for the person standing at the laboratory bench only creates the conditions which allow such results to emerge gradually. If that were not the case, things would not have developed as they have in modern times.
                                        Whenever discoveries are made they are clothed in exceedingly abstract formulae which others find incomprehensible. There is a yawning gap today between what people understand and what is produced by research, because people do not have access to the underlying spiritual impulses." RS, The Anthroposophic Movement, pp 116, RSP, 1993

                                        What Steiner doesn't specify here is which spirits are present. But it's a point of departure to a more spiritual consciousness.

                                        Bill

                                        jla wrote:
                                        In a recent post you asked for examples of when you parrot or simply offer uncritical support of AP :
                                         
                                        Your  agreement with the post below is such an example. Instead of questioning the nature and apparent differences  RS had about the "universal applications of laws of physics" in the universe; and seeking clarification for this ambiguous and somewhat dogmatic passage below, simple agreement is offered..
                                         
                                        For example:
                                         
                                        "We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.
                                        ....our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange."
                                         
                                         
                                        These statements will drive scientists crazy- not because they cannot understand it or may shock some but everything we have discovered from solar exploration continues to support our present theories of physics and astronomy. The effect of the moon's gravity and conditions other planets have been just as theorized to the best of our explorations to present. That there lies something more and spiritual behind the material has yet to be proven across the board  except by mystics and explorers like RS.(though some of us are convinced this exists) 
                                         
                                        One such example AP uses is that the Sun is really not a caldron of hot, superheated gases but a doorway to the etheric and  if we "went there" (impossible physically) we would find something much different. I pity the poor space traveler from earth who flies directly to the sun and expects not be burned alive as he or she gets closer.
                                         
                                        But how? What are the real bridges between the etheric, astral and physical domains? Perhaps he used extreme caution to shy away from a complete explanation due it applied dangers in unscrupulous labs of the present time or it was just not possible to describe it. In some lecture courses an attempt was made (like the Warmth Course or Study of Man) but a great deal of work needs to done before his descriptions are comprehended and applied by many.
                                         
                                           Jeff
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 7:10 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                        In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghamin@... writes:

                                        >  "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:

                                        > "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance.  Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance.  But people do not pursue this thought further.  They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system.  Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true.  The force of gravity decreases, but also truth.  What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe.  We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.  The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth.  ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange.  Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth.  And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic
                                        > space."

                                        *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral, results only in a self-deception that excludes them from consciousness.

                                        Starman

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                                      • Bill
                                        Jeff, In that vein I would also include Lucifer and Sorat (Azuras). It s highly possible that Steiner intentionally left out any specific mention of what
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                          Jeff,

                                          In that vein I would also include Lucifer and Sorat (Azuras). It's highly possible that Steiner intentionally left out any specific mention of what spirits because what it really comes back to, for me, is morality. This would mean that it could be any number of spirits, not necessarily the counterproductive ones.

                                          For example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation carried out by Pfeiffer in relationship to agriculture. When Pfeiffer was a student, Steiner encouraged him to take science courses, even though, at one point, it meant Pfeiffer spent 18 hours a day on 3 different courses. Steiner said he could catch up to normal life later.

                                          Bill

                                          jla wrote:
                                          There are only one group that it could possibly be and that would be the Ahrimanic unless their is another group not mentioned by RS for this type of influence. This is a good quote and one worth pondering.
                                           
                                          jeff
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From:Bill
                                          Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 11:11 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                          Jeff,

                                          The point is that in entering the physical body of the Sun it would have to be a spiritual entry without the physical body. As for modern scientific experimentation, Steiner says this, and I will quote instead of paraphrase to leave it pure.

                                          "I believe it was in 1908 that I made the following remarks in Nuremberg, in order to describe a very specific state of affairs. Modern scientific experimentation has led to substantial scientific progress. That can only be a good thing, for spiritual beings are at work in such experimentation. The scientist goes to the laboratory and pursues his work according to the routines and methods he has learnt. But a whole group of spiritual beings are working alongside him, and it is they who actually bring about results; for the person standing at the laboratory bench only creates the conditions which allow such results to emerge gradually. If that were not the case, things would not have developed as they have in modern times.
                                          Whenever discoveries are made they are clothed in exceedingly abstract formulae which others find incomprehensible. There is a yawning gap today between what people understand and what is produced by research, because people do not have access to the underlying spiritual impulses." RS, The Anthroposophic Movement, pp 116, RSP, 1993

                                          What Steiner doesn't specify here is which spirits are present. But it's a point of departure to a more spiritual consciousness.

                                          Bill

                                          jla wrote:
                                          In a recent post you asked for examples of when you parrot or simply offer uncritical support of AP :
                                           
                                          Your  agreement with the post below is such an example. Instead of questioning the nature and apparent differences  RS had about the "universal applications of laws of physics" in the universe; and seeking clarification for this ambiguous and somewhat dogmatic passage below, simple agreement is offered..
                                           
                                          For example:
                                           
                                          "We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.
                                          ....our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange."
                                           
                                           
                                          These statements will drive scientists crazy- not because they cannot understand it or may shock some but everything we have discovered from solar exploration continues to support our present theories of physics and astronomy. The effect of the moon's gravity and conditions other planets have been just as theorized to the best of our explorations to present. That there lies something more and spiritual behind the material has yet to be proven across the board  except by mystics and explorers like RS.(though some of us are convinced this exists) 
                                           
                                          One such example AP uses is that the Sun is really not a caldron of hot, superheated gases but a doorway to the etheric and  if we "went there" (impossible physically) we would find something much different. I pity the poor space traveler from earth who flies directly to the sun and expects not be burned alive as he or she gets closer.
                                           
                                          But how? What are the real bridges between the etheric, astral and physical domains? Perhaps he used extreme caution to shy away from a complete explanation due it applied dangers in unscrupulous labs of the present time or it was just not possible to describe it. In some lecture courses an attempt was made (like the Warmth Course or Study of Man) but a great deal of work needs to done before his descriptions are comprehended and applied by many.
                                           
                                              Jeff
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 7:10 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                          In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghamin@... writes:

                                          >  "Man in the past, the present and the future" Stuttgart 14th September 1923:

                                          > "... We all know that the strength of the light decreases wiht distance.  Ordinary physics states the law that gravitation, too, decreases with the square of the distance.  But people do not pursue this thought further.  They can demonstrate that here on Earth, gravity has a particular magnitude and diminishes with the square of the distance, for they live on the Earth and establish laws of Nature and truths valid for the Earth, and build them into a system.  Where gravity has a definite magnitude, thses laws are true.  The force of gravity decreases, but also truth.  What was true for the Earth ceases to be true if we pursue it further outwards into the Universe.  We have no more right to regard the findings of physics and chemistry as applicable to the whole Universe than we have to assume that earthly gravity holds good throughout the Cosmos.  The truths that rule in the heavenly spheres cannot be dealt with in the same way as those that hold on Earth.  ...our general consciousness is so solidly encased nowadays that even the slightest remark which might pierce through the case, immediately appears strange.  Modern men are so wholly tied to the Earth that their knowledge, even sometime their reflections, never pass beyond what they experience on Earth.  And they deal with cosmic time exactly as they deal with cosmic
                                          > space."

                                          *******Exactly, and applying earthly ideas to higher realities, as opposed to developing the new kind of thinking necessary to grasp the etheric & astral, results only in a self-deception that excludes them from consciousness.

                                          Starman

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
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                                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:21:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... *******It s absurd to say Ahrimanic spirits are behind all scientific activity. There are
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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                                            In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:21:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bmacro@... writes:


                                            It's highly possible that Steiner intentionally left out any specific mention of what spirits because what it really comes back to, for me, is morality. This would mean that it could be any number of spirits, not necessarily the counterproductive ones.

                                            For example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation carried out by Pfeiffer in relationship to agriculture. When Pfeiffer was a student, Steiner encouraged him to take science courses, even though, at one point, it meant Pfeiffer spent 18 hours a day on 3 different courses. Steiner said he could catch up to normal life later.


                                            *******It's absurd to say 'Ahrimanic spirits' are behind all scientific activity. There are many spirits involved. When scientists allow all their thoughts to take cynical and materialistic forms, that's the result of the Ahrimanic ones influencing them. All the so-called New Age 'science' that reaches no concrete results except 'it's all an illusion, the mind creates reality' is influenced by the Luciferic ones. It's clear by the 'fruits'.

                                            Starman
                                          • Bill
                                            Morality that s above nature. Bill
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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                                              Morality that's above nature.

                                              Bill

                                              DRStarman2001@... wrote:
                                              In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:21:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bmacro@... writes:


                                              It's highly possible that Steiner intentionally left out any specific mention of what spirits because what it really comes back to, for me, is morality. This would mean that it could be any number of spirits, not necessarily the counterproductive ones.

                                              For example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation carried out by Pfeiffer in relationship to agriculture. When Pfeiffer was a student, Steiner encouraged him to take science courses, even though, at one point, it meant Pfeiffer spent 18 hours a day on 3 different courses. Steiner said he could catch up to normal life later.


                                              *******It's absurd to say 'Ahrimanic spirits' are behind all scientific activity. There are many spirits involved. When scientists allow all their thoughts to take cynical and materialistic forms, that's the result of the Ahrimanic ones influencing them. All the so-called New Age 'science' that reaches no concrete results except 'it's all an illusion, the mind creates reality' is influenced by the Luciferic ones. It's clear by the 'fruits'.

                                              Starman

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                                            • jla
                                              I suggest you be patient and read further posts o this subject before jumping to fix and authoritative conclusions. Jeff ... From: DRStarman2001@aol.com To:
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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                                                I suggest you be patient and read further posts o this subject before jumping to fix and authoritative conclusions.
                                                 
                                                Jeff
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 8:03 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                                                In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:21:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bmacro@... writes:


                                                It's highly possible that Steiner intentionally left out any specific mention of what spirits because what it really comes back to, for me, is morality. This would mean that it could be any number of spirits, not necessarily the counterproductive ones.

                                                For example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation carried out by Pfeiffer in relationship to agriculture. When Pfeiffer was a student, Steiner encouraged him to take science courses, even though, at one point, it meant Pfeiffer spent 18 hours a day on 3 different courses. Steiner said he could catch up to normal life later.


                                                *******It's absurd to say 'Ahrimanic spirits' are behind all scientific activity. There are many spirits involved. When scientists allow all their thoughts to take cynical and materialistic forms, that's the result of the Ahrimanic ones influencing them. All the so-called New Age 'science' that reaches no concrete results except 'it's all an illusion, the mind creates reality' is influenced by the Luciferic ones. It's clear by the 'fruits'.

                                                Starman

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