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R: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    Dear Morgan, your room mate is right, quoting Steiner about this matter. This topic is one of the most difficult thing to grasp in Spiritual Science and i
    Message 1 of 8 , May 30, 2002
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      Dear Morgan,
      your room mate is right, quoting Steiner about this matter.
       This topic  is one of the most difficult thing to grasp in Spiritual Science and i engaged many years of inner struggle before coming to terms
      .  We have to ask ourselves, as a primary step, what is that we call "material"? 
       Then we have to travel on a kind of double trip, studying the philosophical foundation of Anthroposophy and also practicing the inner path as described in Occult Science and "Knowledge..".  
       So it's possible to grasp what Steiner says about.  the true spiritual perception that shows us the matter fading away,as in the case of looking at a star, and there you'll find spiritual activity , whose  material appearence is "maya"
      Moreover on a somewhat different path, a purely mathematic one, you may look at the "projective geometry" as developed by George Adams and others in order to find some answer about  the true Space's nature,which is  ethereal and not "physical, as the same quantum physics development began somehow to show. 
      So Anthroposphy tells us  that the other planets' inhabitant are of an etheric-astral nature  and the same we are able to say about the so-called "ufos" ., as stated in the interesting essay by T.Constable entitled "The Cosmic Pulse of Life" .
       We  have also to grasp Steiner's insights about the so-called "8th Sphere"(see the forthcoming English translation of 1915's lectures about it  in a book on Blavatsky and theosophy publ. by Anthropress) which he was also talkin about answering a question on Tibet's ufo phenomena in early '20s.
      I know that I gave only some poor sketches about a very deep and basic question ....
      Andrea 
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:20 AM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

      Dear Jeff;

      Thank you for catching the gist of my query.
      Indeed I was asking about material beings.
      My room mate (also an anthroposophist) stated somewhat gingerly that Steiner said that ours was the only planet inhabited by material beings.  I still find this incredible.  I was referring to planets in other solar systems. I am quite aware of planetary beings that inhabit
      other planes.

      Blessings;
      Morgan

      jla wrote:

      Though I may be mistaken, I had a sense that this question had more to do with the possibility of material or physically based beings that may inhabit the planets.

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    • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
      Some remark about Jeff s statements. There is a strong epistemological question about what is occult claims and what is proven , since sometimes
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 1, 2002
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        Some remark about Jeff's statements.
         
        There is  a strong epistemological question about what is "occult claims" and what is "proven" , since sometimes something that for any is "occult", for somebody else is "proven".
        The crux lies in the different level of perception posible for today's mankind and writing an essay for an anthro-magazine ( in my own Italian language) about the link between "ufos and the 8th sphere" I realized that if we have not an actual cognition of the continuum from the physycal plane to the etheric-astral-spiritual ones we are really unable to grasp what's happening all around us, in the times when the "subnature", the "8th sphere" the "Treshold crossing phoenomena" and so on are sending "ad bestias" (english : to hell) the so-called "common sense perception" ,more and more twisted off by the sub-sub-sub  forces streaming from every possible underworld. 
          So we have to understand that all the chat-chat about the "little green men from other planets travelling on three-dimensional aircraft" might be only a further hindrancers' trick, that began just at the end of the Second World War . ( But who knows Constable's "Cosmivc pulse" is able to build all the necessary links and grasp a satisfactory pont of view about the whole matter)
        . What else ?
         If the "ufos claims" conceal a big Hindrancers' deception the only way to answer is to build oneself the right weapons to disclose it, and the Spiritual Science's cognition path is the b est way I know to do it. 
        A final remark about the question of "materialize"and "dematerialize" : if you digit on some Google or Yahoo the word "jinn" ( elemental astral beings in Islam esotericism ) you'll be able to grasp some interesting insight about the way those "boys from downstairs" ( to quote Constable) used to "travel" trough the different planes of the World.
        Ufos ante litteram ?
        Andrea
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jla
        Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 1:35 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

        Carol,
         
        I know this is the assertion of some but nowhere is this proven outside of occult claims. I have heard this before from some AP's but wonder how such a being can create something that continues to exist in material form for decades or be so solid that humans can both interact with such "material forms" it but travel in it as we would a airplane. 
         
        Where does this information come from below and are there some examples you can point to in history.
         
        Jeff

        The beings that  are presenting themselves as from other
        planets are also very capable of creating material forms that
        we can see/touch/feel/smell....  And while the specific
        material form they present probably isn't from another
        planet, the beings themselves are and the consciousness that
        they wish to spead is also, I think...


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      • Bradford Riley
        From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI ... The crux lies in the different level of perception posible for today s mankind and writing an essay for an
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 1, 2002
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          From: "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@...>
          >Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings
          >Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 11:48:45 +0200
          >
          The crux lies in the different level of perception posible for today's
          mankind and writing an essay for an anthro-magazine ( in my own Italian
          language) about the link between "ufos and the 8th sphere" I realized that
          if we have not an actual cognition of the continuum from the physycal plane
          to the etheric-astral-spiritual ones we are really unable to grasp what's
          happening all around us, in the times when the "subnature", the "8th sphere"
          the "Treshold crossing phoenomena" and so on are sending "ad bestias"
          (english : to hell) the so-called "common sense perception" ,more and more
          twisted off by the sub-sub-sub forces streaming from every possible
          underworld.

          Bradford writes;

          I would be very interested in your article. Harrison and the 8th sphere or
          "The Transcendental Universe" is mostly unexplored territory for about 99.9%
          of the planet. So, if you could send an attachment over in WORD I could see
          if I can translate it. In fact wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if the
          journals that are in different languages that take up Anthrospiritual themes
          could be run through quick translations and made available. What a neat web
          site that could be. Journal articles from around the world in language
          friendly translations.

          8Th sphere and the Occult basis for the film the "Matrix" holds a clear
          warning on the long horizon of human development. I appreciate anybody who
          takes up that theme. Send it on it you can.





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        • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
          Dear List I ll try to put in front of our attention some further sketch, having previously said about the Constable s book in which he classifies ufos in two
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 3, 2002
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            Dear List

            I’ll try to put in front of our attention some further sketch, having previously said about the Constable’s book in which he classifies ufos in two main families: a critter ,  animal-like one and a machine-like (with deep occult meanings due to his links with the underworld that Steiner calls “8th sphere, see below) one.

             Well. the first of these insights is able to link with some Jeff’s remarks but I want to add something  else.

            If some spiritual power is able to create matter, some other “reversed” spiritual power is able to create a kind of “matter” ( no question  about in how much  earthly time this kind of “matter” takes shape and “lives” , Jeff, we are not talking about “yoga”  or “magic” we are discussing of powerful Spiritual beings!) now using the material human thinking remnants too and giving them shape according to those materialistic contents. That’ a consequence of the 8th Sphere building process  and I believe that is the crux of UFO phenomena. We can also assume that in this Hindrancers’ building there should be  a kind of “technology”, but now we have also to admit that we are facing new  perception with “old” concepts… …..

             Another short sketch:if we are believers in the a actual , “airforce”  or spaceship nature of ufo we have to admit that they don’t  really “fly”.   They appear and disappear, or, sometimes ,they “write in the atmosphere” with the strangest traiectories that have  no link with what we call “aereonautics”. 

            To be continued….(??)

             

            Andrea

             

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: jla
            Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 5:49 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

            What is meant by material substance pre-existing relates not to the distant evolutionary past but now. For a being to materialize and maintain its form on earth (or on another material planet)  a long and complex process is needed. No being that I have heard reference to can just decide to materialize a body or object and have it maintain its form in time. By this I mean, some yogic and magical practices enable someone to materialize something physical but it will last only as long as the concentrated will and image is held by the practioner. In the case of paranormal events and objects, this is not the case. The Beings and objects are clearly functioning in space and time without using occult means to sustain it. This can only lead to the conclusion that the objects (spaceships or technological objects) were manufactured or that the being went through a birth process and are living as organic or quasi organic beings.
             
            jeff
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Carol
            Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 12:25 AM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

            ( If one says that all of nature is the
            > result of the activity of spiritual beings that is
            > different because the material substances must be
            > pre-existing for them to be active within. ) I just cannot
            > see how this model explains the great number of reports or
            > even certain parapsychological anatomies like mediums or
            > saints levitating and defying the laws of gravity.

            I don't see how this model is attempting to explain how we
            float. 

            What do you mean about material substance having to pre-exist
            for 'them' to be active within...This isn't as Cartesian as
            it sounds is it? I assume I'm misreading the idea there.  I
            never thought about the Big Bang happening as a purely
            'material' event and then spiritual being deciding to occupy
            the results.

            To me it's just not a strange idea at all to think that there
            are beings from other 'planets' communicating with us in a
            language that we can understand.  I don't have to picture
            them flying through space to appreciate the contact, but I
            can.  It doesn't make a big difference.  But for me it makes
            more sense to imagine the beings epistemologically working
            towards those earthlings who have signed up for some very
            specific rides...


            Carol


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          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/1/2002 5:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, okcgbr@tin.it ... *******These beings have always been known. It s a tragic reality that the form
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 4, 2002
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              In a message dated 6/1/2002 5:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, okcgbr@... writes:


              There is  a strong epistemological question about what is "occult claims" and what is "proven" , since sometimes something that for any is "occult", for somebody else is "proven".

              The crux lies in the different level of perception posible for today's mankind and writing an essay for an anthro-magazine ( in my own Italian language) about the link between "ufos and the 8th sphere" I realized that if we have not an actual cognition of the continuum from the physycal plane to the etheric-astral-spiritual ones we are really unable to grasp what's happening all around us, in the times when the "subnature", the "8th sphere" the "Treshold crossing phoenomena" and so on are sending "ad bestias" (english : to hell) the so-called "common sense perception" ,more and more twisted off by the sub-sub-sub  forces streaming from every possible underworld.
                So we have to understand that all the chat-chat about the "little green men from other planets travelling on three-dimensional aircraft" might be only a further hindrancers' trick, that began just at the end of the Second World War . ( But who knows Constable's "Cosmivc pulse" is able to build all the necessary links and grasp a satisfactory pont of view about the whole matter)
              . What else ?
              If the "ufos claims" conceal a big Hindrancers' deception the only way to answer is to build oneself the right weapons to disclose it, and the Spiritual Science's cognition path is the b est way I know to do it.
              A final remark about the question of "materialize"and "dematerialize" : if you digit on some Google or Yahoo the word "jinn" ( elemental astral beings in Islam esotericism ) you'll be able to grasp some interesting insight about the way those "boys from downstairs" ( to quote Constable) used to "travel" trough the different planes of the World.
              Ufos ante litteram ?
              Andrea


              *******These beings have always been known. It's a tragic reality that the form some of them now are made to take by some lower astral beings is the result of the Ahrimanic deception, and a very effective one it is indeed. As you say, Constable's work has been duplicated by others and we can now see them as they really are.

              Incidentally, in the Qabala the inhabitants of the 8th sphere were known as the 'qlipoth' or shells. The 'djinn' was a generic term for all astral beings sometimes, and sometimes was used for one type of them. It's the origin of the word "genius", which originally meant a being that incarnated with or in certain humans, like Socrates' "daemon", a demi-god or offspring of a god. The saying was originally that a person "HAD a genius", not WAS a genius.

              Dr. Starman
            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              In a message dated 6/3/2002 3:40:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, okcgbr@tin.it ... In a message dated 6/3/2002 3:40:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, okcgbr@tin.it
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 4, 2002
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                In a message dated 6/3/2002 3:40:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, okcgbr@... writes:


                Dear List

                I’ll try to put in front of our attention some further sketch, having previously said about the Constable’s book in which he classifies ufos in two main families: a critter ,  animal-like one and a machine-like (with deep occult meanings due to his links with the underworld that Steiner calls “8th sphere, see below) one.

                Well. the first of these insights is able to link with some Jeff’s remarks but I want to add something  else.

                If some spiritual power is able to create matter, some other “reversed” spiritual power is able to create a kind of “matter” ( no question  about in how much  earthly time this kind of “matter” takes shape and “lives” , Jeff, we are not talking about “yoga”  or “magic” we are discussing of powerful Spiritual beings!) now using the material human thinking remnants too and giving them shape according to those materialistic contents. That’ a consequence of the 8th Sphere building process  and I believe that is the crux of UFO phenomena. We can also assume that in this Hindrancers’ building there should be  a kind of “technology”, but now we have also to admit that we are facing new  perception with “old” concepts… …..

                Another short sketch:if we are believers in the a actual , “airforce”  or spaceship nature of ufo we have to admit that they don’t  really “fly”.   They appear and disappear, or, sometimes ,they “write in the atmosphere” with the strangest traiectories that have  no link with what we call “aereonautics”. 

                To be continued….(??)



                Andrea


                *******Quite right. Say on.


              • Bradford Riley
                From: DRStarman2001@aol.com ... Starman; ... Some study notes from another site; This leads us to the reason for the Avestan and Essene abyss. The Eight Sphere
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 4, 2002
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                  From: DRStarman2001@...
                  >Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings
                  >Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:49:37 EDT

                  Starman;

                  >Incidentally, in the Qabala the inhabitants of the 8th sphere were known as
                  >the 'qlipoth' or shells. The 'djinn' was a generic term for all astral
                  >beings
                  >sometimes, and sometimes was used for one type of them. It's the origin of
                  >the word "genius", which originally meant a being that incarnated with or
                  >in
                  >certain humans, like Socrates' "daemon", a demi-god or offspring of a god.
                  >The saying was originally that a person "HAD a genius", not WAS a genius.

                  Some study notes from another site;

                  This leads us to the reason for the Avestan and Essene abyss.

                  The Eight Sphere

                  We have seen that the intentional cosmic deed of the War in Heaven led to
                  the three hierarchies of evil. The Asuric, led by Adzura, resulted from the
                  recapitulation of the Old Saturn manvantara; the Ahrimanic, led by Ahriman,
                  resulted from the recapitulation of the Old Sun manvantara and the
                  Luciferic, led by Lucifer, resulted from the recapitulation of the Old Moon
                  manvantara. As a result, the evolution of the spiritual gifts (the three
                  higher principles) given to mankind by the hierarchies are constantly under
                  attack by these legions of evil, which we have now come to call the Spirits
                  of Darkness.

                  Lucifer works thru the hierarchy of angels within the astral body; Ahriman
                  works thru the hierarchy of archangels within the etheric body and Azdura
                  works thru the hierarchy of Archai within the physical body. The elemental
                  spirits of Lucifer work thru the elements of air and water. The elemental
                  spirits of Ahriman and Adzura work thru the elements of earth and fire and
                  working with fire is much more powerful than the other elements, as the
                  ancient Atlanteans hopefully learned.
                  The three hierarchies of archai-archangels-angels are reflected in the
                  spheres of Father-Son-Holy Spirit in the regions of physical-etheric-astral
                  bodies in man.

                  Lucifer in his battle in the sphere of the Holy Spirit was redeemed by the
                  act of the Christ in His decent into hell after the crucifixion. Ahriman in
                  his battle in the sphere of the Son, will be redeemed in the future by the
                  act of the Christ becoming the Lord of Karma. However, what is lost in the
                  sphere of the Father, is forever lost to human evolution and the symbol of
                  this is the abyss of the Eight sphere.

                  The occult concept of the Eighth sphere was first made exoteric by
                  A.P.Sinnett in his landmark book ESOTERIC BUDDHISM. Here he absolutely
                  identified the Eighth sphere with the materiality of the moon. Some of the
                  errors he made were later corrected by the Good Madame Blavatsky in her
                  SECRET DOCTRINE, where she hoped that future editions of Sinnett's book
                  would finally correct the mistakes. However, this was never done and the
                  errors still persisted leading to the conclusion that the Eight sphere was
                  the moon, the former sphere of Lucifer during the Old Moon manvantara.

                  Later, when Dr. Steiner identified the nine interior levels of the earth
                  with source levels of evil, the Eighth sphere became identified with the
                  earth, the sphere of Ahriman. In addition, Steiner said that man could not
                  penetrate with his consciousness the earth's interior thereby setting up an
                  absolute barrier for knowledge of the Eighth sphere. Dr. Steiner in his book
                  THE OCCULT MOVEMENT IN THE 19TH CENTURY (1915) tried to reconcile the two
                  views.

                  As we know, seven of the 12 conditions of consciousness are available to
                  mankind thru the evolution of the seven manvantaras from Old Saturn to
                  Vulcan. We are presently in the fourth, the Earth manvantara. These seven
                  spheres represent successive stages of evolution and they occur within each
                  other, as transformations of the planet earth. Since the beginning of this
                  Fourth round, Lucifer and Ahriman have had a plan to create or mineralize
                  their own sphere, which at the end of plantetary evolution, would detach
                  itself from the earth and go its own way into the cosmos. This sphere has
                  come to be called in occultism, the Eighth sphere.

                  In order to accomplish this task, it is necessary for a process of
                  mineralization to occur. What are "imaginations" or thought forms in an
                  earlier sphere, become materialized in the next sphere. Thus, the
                  imaginations of humanity that occur during this Round, will descend from the
                  astral world during the next Jupiter sphere and become physical. This is
                  especially true for the great works of art and music we produce now.

                  During the transition from the Old Moon manvantara to the Earth manvantara,
                  what was formerly only imaginatively perceptible, becomes materially
                  perceptible. This occurs by adding matter to the spirit by the process of
                  mineralization. All the imaginations present in the Old Moon manvantara,
                  should have passed over into Earth evolution to become mineralized. However,
                  Lucifer and Ahriman stole certain imaginations belonging to the Old Moon
                  evolution and when these are added to the sphere of Earth evolution, an
                  Eighth sphere is created that works in opposition to the Divine Plan of the
                  Elohim.

                  The Earth sphere arrives out of the Old Moon sphere by virtue of the
                  activities of the Spirits of Motion being added to the activities of the
                  Spirits of Form. During the Fourth globe of this Fourth round, the mineral
                  kingdom is added to the plant and animal kingdoms that previously evolved on
                  the Old Moon. When the activities of Lucifer and Ahriman are also added to
                  the normal activities of the Spirits of Motion and of Form, the Eighth
                  sphere becomes mineralized, presently with astral substance, which in the
                  future, will become physical substance.

                  Now, when these stolen imaginations become mineralized during our Earth
                  evolution, they take with them certain physical atoms that rightfully belong
                  to our Earth evolution. What is taken away is directed by Lucifer and
                  Ahriman into the Eighth sphere in the hope of creating their own planet.
                  This was the planet promised to Lucifer after the War in Heaven but, as you
                  can see from the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, this planet was
                  destroyed and only remnants remain, still in orbit. Thus, do the Spirits of
                  Form, "Battle for every morsel of substantiality capable of mineralization
                  lest it should be wrested away from them by Lucifer and Ahriman and borne
                  into the Eighth sphere."

                  As a counter-weight to the astral materiality of the Eighth sphere, the
                  Spirits of Form mineralized the moon, with a much greater density than that
                  of the earth. Thereafter, when the moon separated from the earth,
                  JHVH-Elohim went with the moon to command the forces of the Elohim from
                  there. Thus, the imaginations created during the Old Moon manvantara that
                  were stolen by Lucifer and Ahriman which by now had mineralized into
                  physical atoms, went out of the earth to remain in the physical moon. The
                  mineral content of the present moon also contains the spiritual content of
                  the Old Moon forces. As such, the major source of mineral atoms from which
                  Old Moon imaginations could be mineralized, was removed from the earth and
                  put back under the domain of the Spirits of Form as a physical
                  counter-weight. However, what materiality that still remains within the
                  earth sphere is subject to the war between the Lords of Light and the
                  Spirits of Darkness, only the largest source has been removed.

                  We see then the error of Sinnett was to mistake the astral corporality of
                  the real Eighth sphere with the physical materiality of the moon. The moon
                  in effect acts as a counter-weight, with its center of gravity located in
                  the center of the moon, which is under the influence of JHVH. Like the polar
                  field of forces of a magnet, the moon, as one pole, draws against the center
                  of gravity within the center of the earth, as the other pole, which is under
                  the influence of Ahriman. In the middle is the astral sphere of the Eighth
                  sphere with Lucifer in his domain as leader of the Old Moon forces.

                  The astral substance of the Old Moon forces (imaginations) is the actual
                  Eighth sphere. As the astral becomes etheric and as the etheric hardens into
                  physical matter, so too the combined activities of the Spirits of Motion,
                  the Spirits of Form and Lucifer/Ahriman would have passed over to the
                  Jupiter manvantara only a shell of the earth, while at the same time
                  creating a physical planet to further the evolution of the Spirits of
                  Darkness. Whether or not this will actually happen is a matter of future
                  evolution. Since our earth is the planet destined to become a future sun in
                  a far distant manvantara, with Christ as our leader, we do not want any
                  competition from the Spirits of Darkness.
                  What they really need is to capture a human soul to take with them.

                  This has been symbolised in the past literature by the "pact with the Devil"
                  such as seen in the 16th century HISTORIA VON D. JOHANN FAUSTEN, Christopher
                  Marlowe's play and Goethe's FAUST. To date, no human soul has yet been lost
                  to the Eighth sphere, including those of Nero, Ghengis Khan, Shaka Zulu and
                  Hitler. However, can this happen in the future sixth and seventh cultural
                  epochs ?


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                • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                  Jeff, the close encounters chapter of UFO s tale , till the farthest of the abduction cases has to be managed , obviously, in the most prudent way
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 6, 2002
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                    Jeff,
                    the "close encounters" chapter of UFO's tale , till the farthest of the "abduction" cases has to be managed , obviously, in the most prudent way possible, but, also in this case all we are saying on this thread about the "materialize" and "dematerialize" phenomena . the 8th sphere , the physical-etheric-astral continuum and so on should be enough to begin a kind of conceptual work about the whole matter.
                    What else? we are all free human beings and no doctor prescribed  to you the belief in Steiner's or Constable's insights and to me or Starman the "spacecraft from other planets" one.....  
                    Andrea
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: jla
                    Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 6:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: A Question of interstellar Beings

                    Valentina,
                     
                    To take this subject somewhat out of the ethers- during my younger days (10-15 years ago) a very close friend was an interviewer and part time researcher of paranormal subjects. He was able to interview at least two  individuals would had first hand experience in being on board a UFO in full day consciousness and not in some dreamy state. The ship took off, they saw the earth below and traveled outside the earth's atmosphere. They encountered and talked to human looking individuals who looked like any of us and they were highly intelligent, compassionate, and had a sense of humor. These examples are just two that I know of personally and there are hundreds of others. He also has a friend who is a retired Lt. Col in the Air Force and has interviewed and researched a case of an individual who has had numerous first hand encounters (and close up pictures of ships near the ground and slightly above the ground-not some distinct blob of light). He investigated this case for several years and is convinced of its validity and the photographic evidence is as clear as a picture in Time magazine cover.  All these individuals have military experience in the 50's (Air Force and Green Berets) and are serious people with common sense.
                     
                    How this category of case reflects upon occult mysteries and the 8th Sphere dilemma is beyond me.
                     
                     
                    Jeff
                     
                     
                    -----

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