Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ

Expand Messages
  • Bradford Riley
    From: Bradford Riley ... Bradford has to pick up on a trail of thought here. The New Isis Veil What is being researched here is the
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 22, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      From: "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@...>
      >Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
      >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:48:39 +0000
      >>This is the new Veil, the Isis Veil that non dare lift!

      Bradford has to pick up on a trail of thought here. The New Isis Veil

      What is being researched here is the DESIRE of man. To Desire Space,
      Cloning, Making better widgets.. It is DESIRE that certainly should not be
      outlawed. It cannot be outlawed, but the fact is that our desire to "seek
      out brave new worlds" to constantly strive is part of the Luciferic wonder
      of the Human Freedom to question. Great! Now we come to the occult question
      of infecting neighboring worlds, Stone; Plant; Animal and Human conditions
      with a repeat of our own Luciferic infection of our Desire or Astral Body.

      By being as Natural as we are and doing the things we do, we need pay not
      attention to Milton. But see, as we shift from Religion to Science we are
      not in Kansas anymore. We have the potential of infecting with Human
      luciferic forces the unfolding of the future Species of Group Beings in the
      Animal, Plant and mineral worlds. If we were thinking properly we wouldn't
      want to infect the neighboring worlds with the chaos we also inherited. For
      instance.

      Steiner:

      http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19120505p01.html;mark=327,59,63#WN_mark

      "The Mystery of Golgotha was concerned with the descending path which men
      have taken and with what must lead them upwards again � with the Luciferic
      influence upon mankind! Lucifer, together with everything belonging to him,
      is verily not a human being. Lucifer and his hosts are superhuman beings.
      Nor did Lucifer desire that through his deeds men should be set upon a
      downward path; his purpose was to rebel against the upper gods. He wanted to
      vanquish his opponents, not to set men upon a downward path. The progressive
      gods, the upper gods, and Lucifer with his hosts of the lower gods of
      hindrance, waged war against each other, and from the very beginning of
      earthly evolution, man was dragged into this warfare among gods. It was an
      issue that the gods in the higher worlds had to settle among themselves, but
      as a result of the conflict, men were drawn more deeply into the material
      world than was originally intended. And now the gods had to create the
      balance; humanity had to be lifted upwards again, the deed of Lucifer made
      of no avail. And this could not be achieved through a man but only through a
      Divine Deed, the deed of a god. This deed of a god must be understood in all
      its truth and reality. "

      Bradford Writes;

      The portrait of Mankind already carries an infected Luciferic Astral body.
      Our learning on Earth and understanding as Scientists must also call upon us
      not to abuse the unborn kingdoms and infect them with our own inherited
      errors which have been changed by the Christ Event. The real Christ Event
      requires a new form of thinking and so far we labor with nothing but clunky
      Model T morality and unexamined thinking into the issues of Science and the
      neighboring Kingdoms we intend to broach. Now we can act in a Luciferic,
      Ahrimanic or Christed manner towards the unborn destiny of the realm of
      Man-Animals-Plants-Stones.

      I will attempt to work this out with more detail a little later. I have some
      other pressing issues I must attend to. Anybody else care to carry the ball
      and direction here? Thanks!

      Previously;

      >We really should begin to think in this way to clear up the real meanings
      >behind Cloning and general scouring the astral world of fallen and
      >displaced
      >beings who might offer any kind of false dressed up whore from the animal
      >world... and even further, we betray and sin against the astral world. This
      >sinning against the astral world of the animal species plays into a Sin
      >against the Holy Ghost.
      >
      Now we are faced with forrays into intimate
      >developmental phases of higher species unfoldment into their own future
      >human evolution. The animals are first on the list, the plants next and the
      >stones in the wings. They all have high hopes that we do not repeat all our
      >Luciferic Fall and the Fall phase of Humanity by acting Luciferically
      >within
      >their species.
      >
      >We precipate cosmic karma and repeat the Fall of Species as we were
      >involved
      >with a Luciferic impregnation into our own Astral bodies. The poor
      >kingdoms
      >below man are wondering, why do we have to repeat the Fall of Man because
      >Scientists are whores?
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
    • elaineupton2001
      Thank you again, Bradford, for a rich and generous post, and for calling us to thoughtful courageousness in these urgent matters of bio-technology/engineering,
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 22, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you again, Bradford, for a rich and generous post, and for
        calling us to thoughtful courageousness in these urgent matters of
        bio-technology/engineering, as they are euphemistically called in the
        media. Indeed, as you say, these are acts where scientists are
        engaged in abuse of children, the future children (plant, animal,
        human species), an abuse as egregious as that of any abusing Catholic
        Priest. Interesting how the mainstream news calls our attention over
        and over to the scandals in the Catholic Church, while the scandals
        of science, and our complicity when we are silent, hardly receive a
        byline.

        Thanks for pointing again to St. Elizabeth and Wartburg Castle. I'll
        look this up.

        Also, thanks for the illustration of your own marriage and union of
        the etheric and astral forces.

        More later. Meantime, courage and blessing!
        elaine
      • joksu57
        ... mind ... magnetize ... karmically as ... Healthcliff ... to take ... might ... were ... initiate ... Joksu writes: This Bradford s text reminds me of a
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 23, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
          > From: "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@h...>
          > >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
          > >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:05:46 -0000
          >
          > Dear Elaine raised great issues;
          >
          > You mention St. FRancis and the stigmate, in reference to his
          > >attainment of the astral body of Christ. But St. Elizabeth? I know
          > >virtually nothing of her. What was her Christ experience?--And
          > >Wartburg Castle? What is it you are busy with here, if you don't
          mind
          > >saying?
          >
          > Bradford writes;
          >
          > Positive and negative currents of charge in sexual relations
          magnetize
          > astral contacts. Sex is a magnetic force and sometimes not
          karmically as
          > clear as Heathcliff and Cathy. Yes you are lucky to understand
          Healthcliff
          > and Cathy in "Wuthering Heights" others who wander around here fail
          to take
          > heed when looking into the question of how the realm of soul mates
          might
          > arise.
          >
          > Soul mates might be indicated by how Lazarus and John the Baptist
          were
          > joined it always reminded me of Cain and Abel. Cain the enormous
          initiate
          > reminded me of Rosenkreuz stream. Abel reminded me of Baptist a bit.


          Joksu writes:

          This Bradford's text reminds me of a lecture named "Cain", held by an
          eminent occultist in the year 1931. I want to share some insights,
          which have stemmed mainly from this lecture.
          Cain was originally a farmer and we can connect (agri)culture to
          him. Abel was a shephard and when Cain slayed Abel, this can be
          interpreted so that Cain slayed in himself the "trait of tending the
          animal passions". But in some other sense, it was also a question of
          a Fall, which had karmic consiquencies. I will consider this aspect
          later on. It was also from the beginning the question about
          brotherhood (Am I my brothers' keeper?).


          There's a beautiful old legend about King Solomon. (This is a short
          version based on my memory.) Solomon had to build a temple for the
          glory of God. But every time when the work proceeded there came an
          earthqueke that destroyed the building (He made three attemps in
          different sites). The King become desperate, but then he heard a
          voice which explained, that those places were not worthy enough for
          the temple.

          Solomon went for a walk and in a sad mood sat down near a field
          under a tree. The wise king could understand e.g. all animals and a
          bird in the tree spoke to Salomon: "Your search is over, here is the
          place where you can build your temple". The wise king wondered why
          this cornfield was holier than the earlier places, which were part
          of "pure nature". The bird told more:

          The field was owned by two brothers; the other was married and had
          a family, the other was single. The "family man" waked up in the
          night and said to his wife: this has been a good year to us.; God
          have been merciful to us. But my brother lives all alone. I'll go and
          transfer some sheafs to his side of the field. The other brother had
          also waked up and thought: I don't need much, but my brother has a
          wife and children. I'll go and put some sheafs from my side to his
          side. He doesn't have to know about it. Along the next day they both
          wondered, why was there equal amount of cornsheafs in both sides of
          the field. They both repeated the process during the next night
          takin a greater amount of sheafs with them. And in the coming day
          they were more astonished.

          But wait here, said the bird to Solomon, in this night they will come
          third time, because their love is invincible. And the King sat down
          and waited. The night came and when it started dawning a man came to
          the field, and the bird said: it is the older brother. And that man
          took from his side a large amount of sheafs. Then Solomon regocnized
          that there was a man also in the younger man's field, who took "full
          load" of sheafs. When the brothers came near each other, they were
          frightened in the beginning to see a man carrying sheafs. But then
          they recognized each other, dropped the sheafs and run to embrace
          each other: "My brother, my brother!". King Solomon stepped in all
          his glory in front of the brothers and said: O you worthy men, sell
          me this field, I want to pay you a tenfold price. So King Solomo got
          the soil, where he could finally build his temple, which would
          endure. In this legend we can see an ideal relationship between
          a "Cain-type" and an "Abel-type".

          In Abel and Cain we can really see two different types: Abel is more
          of the "feeling-type", conservative, supporter of the status quo.
          This type easily "believes" in religios dogmas, they love churches
          and priests, who takes care of their relationship to God. This
          temperament is also humble and can give birth to beautiful characters
          and saints.

          Cain is more impulsive, "thinking-type", always seeking new
          approaches. This temperament wants to study, understand and "risk
          all" to reach the thruth. They don't need priests, they want to
          understand and know. But when we think the spiritual side of things,
          then it can be said, that Cain is occultist and Abel is a magician
          (this aspect is also linked to seremonies).

          A secret traditoin tells: Cain was a human being, who later
          incarnated as Hiram Abif. King Solomon was an Abel-character, in all
          his wisdom serving and humble; he was a magician. But Cain, who
          was "greater in skills", was born as Hiram Abif, and without him King
          Solomon could not build his temple. Solomon had to be allied with
          Hiram Abif, Abel with Cain. And Hiram Abif incarnated later as
          Lazarus, whom Jesus Christ "raised from the dead" and who was also
          apostle John (here we can also remember what Bradford have written
          about John the Babtist.) And St.John incarnated later as Christian
          Rosenkreutz, that great Master, who is immensly near Jesus Christ and
          is behind all occult and mystical organisations in the "west". He is
          a wonderful example to us all, how to rise from a fall to great
          hights.

          Rosenkreutz is also linked to St.Germain. I definetly see them as
          separate individuals. Dr. Steiner says in his lecture at Neuchatel
          27.9.1919, that St.Germain was the exoteric incarnation of Christian
          Rosenkreutz. St.Germain (an Abel-type magician) has earned
          his "citizenship" in "the White Brotherhood of Christ" after
          Christian Rosenkreutz and in some sense He is the Gate to this
          Brotherhood and in this sense I see Him as "the exoteric incarnation
          of C.R.". (If I had to speculate about his (St.G.) earlier
          incarnations, I could vote for e.g. Franciscus of Assisi. – Yes I
          know, usually more occult methods are used in these matters, but I
          can always blame the effects of this "democratic age"!)

          Now Dr. Steiner is directly linked to this Rosenkreutz stream and he
          is really a clear Cain-type. We can think about all the cultural
          impulses (education, even (biodynamic) acgriculture etc.) in
          anthroposophy. But the question about brotherhood and tolerating
          different "types" is also vital, when one is building a Mystery-
          Temple. In the original T.S. there was a strong rosicrucian impulse
          and brotherhood was an essential theme. But this brotherhood should
          have been "active practice", as in the old legend, not something to
          preach about.

          Then there is still the karmic aspect. When Cain had killed Abel,
          Cain said to God that now anyone can kill him. Cain is told that if
          he is killed, there will be sevenfold revenge. I link this event to a
          certain "karmic start", where the karma is wielded by the planetary
          spirit. And now it is clearly the karma and "dharma" (spiritual duty)
          of this Rosenkreutz stream to see, that this karma is "redeemed"
          and "transferred to the hand of Christ". It has a lot to do with the
          new Mystery School, which Dr. Steiner worked for (but he could only
          open the first from the three "degrees"). It has also tight links to
          the "second coming of Christ" and the karmic changes attached to it.

          I am sorry if this writing seems a bit "confused", I can't write
          clearer text now about this very deep subject.

          Still one bit of information: Eliphas Levi writes in
          his "Trancendental Magic" that the Prodigal Son in the Bible is a
          decription about Cain. Hmm, why not?

          Warm Regards
          Jouko
        • Bradford Riley
          From: joksu57 ... Magnificent work on the Cain Abel question Joksu.. Here I continue more with the Cain Stream of Science.
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 24, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            From: "joksu57" <jouko.sorvali@...>
            >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
            >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:52:20 -0000

            Magnificent work on the Cain Abel question Joksu.. Here I continue more with
            the Cain Stream of Science.

            Steiner on Manas;

            ****** �. Man has evolved from a state of existence when he had only
            physical body, etheric body and astral body, and he evolves further through
            transforming his astral body into Manas (Spirit-Self).

            Bradford writes;

            In these last few posts on Manas I have brought a position of the Second
            Fall infecting kingdoms below Man through the activity of Man. I placed
            Science in an unconscious position of infecting the Animal Group Soul
            Integrity; Plant Group Identity and already implanting forces in the Mineral
            Silicon realm that begin shaping and distorting their developments. Science
            at this phase of human evolution has taken over what was formerly a
            Religious domain. Presently the activity of Scientists in genetic
            manipulations, egg, embryo and cellular impregnations and transplantations
            are bringing arbitrary astral
            accelerations and intercourse into the innocence of the lower kingdoms below
            our Ego or their Ego development. I indicated that Luciferic elements of the
            Fall of Man could be infecting the unfolding of the lower Kingdoms of
            mineral, plant and Animal realms. I felt that we might be allowing,
            unobserved, Science to spread the illness of our own Fall into the
            neighboring Kingdoms that share our human realm.

            In Steiner�s �The Concepts of Original Sin and Grace� I find some support
            for my view.

            http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/Concpt_index.html;mark=246,52,58#WN_mark

            Steiner-

            ********* �But already then he was involved in the process of the evolution
            of the ego; he lived within this evolutionary process, waiting, as it were,
            for the later bestowal of his ego. Rightly understood, this enables us to
            conceive that certain things must have happened to man and to the whole
            process of his development before he actually received his ego. These
            happenings belong to an epoch preceding that of the development of the ego.
            This is of great significance, for if man had passed through a phase of
            evolution before receiving his ego, what happened during that phase cannot
            be attributed to him in the same sense as what has happened since the
            bestowal of the ego is to be attributed to him. �

            Bradford writes;

            The lower kingdoms of mineral, plant, and animal have not achieved the Ego
            evolution yet. Therefore things cannot be faulted, except for the general
            infection of the Luciferic Fall which infected our human Astral Group Nature
            prior to the development and achieving our individual Ego�s. Some may wonder
            what this is all about. The Mineral has only achieved physical manifestation
            and no etheric or astral body has yet fully appeared for them. However just
            as there are species of Plants, Monocots, Dicots and the like, Minerals have
            geometric families, their various group soul fields at present only
            indicated by Platonic Solids and crystalline structures in their forms.

            The Plants already have physical and etheric bodies but their blossom is the
            close proximity of the Astral, feeling life and the Insect community would
            be the nerve sense and spinal system that, when attached to the plant, would
            bestow on the species in that community the first phases of animal
            development. How should men Initiate the Plant Community into its higher
            development?

            The Animals vehicles have physical bony system, etheric life system and
            Astral feeling intelligence still linked to the Group Soul of the breed.
            House pets and House plants and garden plants associated with human activity
            and human consumption have been adopted and come under the influence taming,
            splicing, grafting and breeding, which required a kind of mingling and
            intercourse that crossed species boundaries.

            In the warehouse of all of nature�s substance are cross breeding, and
            genetic families and species that can give untold benefit to humanity.
            However the deeds that we do by this manipulation, ethically or arbitrarily
            will have influence, IMO on affecting the etheric, astral and future Ego
            development of these innocent Kingdoms, in the same manner as Luciferic
            Beings affected and infected our own Human development and created for us a
            route in evolution Marked by the Fall.

            Steiner continues;

            ********* �There are beings who obviously have no ego in the human sense,
            namely, the animals. They consist of physical body, etheric body and astral
            body only. Everyone who thinks rationally recognizes something about the
            animals. Whatever fury may be exhibited by a lion, for example, we shall not
            say of a lion as we might say of a human being: he can be evil, he can sin,
            he can commit immoral deeds. We shall never speak of immorality in
            connection with the actions of an animal. This in itself is significant
            because even if we give no thought to it, we are thereby recognizing that
            the difference between man and animal consists in the fact that the animal
            has physical body, etheric body and astral body only, whereas man has the
            ego in addition. Man passed through a phase of evolution when the astral
            body was the highest member of his being. Did something happen to him during
            that stage which must be regarded in a different light from that in which
            the actions of animals are to be regarded? Yes indeed! For it must be
            clearly understood that although man was once a being consisting of physical
            body, etheric body and astral body, his nature was never the same as that of
            the animals as we know them today. Man was never an animal, but in other
            epochs he passed through a stage of evolution when he had these three bodies
            only � epochs when there were as yet no animals in their present form and
            when the conditions of existence on the earth were quite different.

            What was it that actually happened to man at that time? As he had not
            received his ego, we cannot attribute to him what we now do in
            distinguishing him from the animals. What arose through him cannot be judged
            as it is to be judged today, when he has an ego. In the last stage of
            transition, when man was on the point of receiving his ego, there came the
            Luciferic influence. In that epoch of his evolution man was not the being he
            is today, but neither is he to be identified with the animals. Lucifer
            approached him. At that time man could not � acting as it were with full
            moral responsibility � choose whether he would or would not follow Lucifer;
            nevertheless he could be drawn into Lucifer's toils in a way other than that
            which applies to the animals today. This temptation by Lucifer occurred at
            the time when man was actually at the point of receiving his ego. This
            temptation was a deed to which man yielded before the period of
            ego-development but which has cast its shadows into the whole of this
            development. �

            Bradford writes;

            IMO we find the trend of actions that the biological Sciences focuses on now
            as beginning to venture into, a repeat, of the kind of Luciferic activity
            that brought the chain of events that had called forth the Luciferic Fall
            that Milton describes. Meaning that the Astral body received premature
            influences that have brought us to the point of Freedom but they also
            required that the Christ come into Earthly Evolution and entered into our
            human historical situation, enter the realm of Religion and Science and
            request that humanity do right by the lower kingdoms.. Instead of and eye
            for an eye, rather do unto others as you would have done unto you� and this
            above all, �That which you do to the least of these you do to me!�

            Which creates, IMO, a new scientific mandate since we appear to be already
            entering into intercourse with realms innocent and below us that are
            unconscious and bear in their arbitrary interfacing and mere corporate moral
            assessments, both Luciferic and consequentially Ahrimanic results for the
            unfolding innocent kingdoms below Humanity. I compare the Science standpoint
            today with the Priestly crisis of the Pedophile. In that the abuse of those
            which appear to be least, and most helpless and easily manipulated should be
            given higher ethical protection and priority by humanity, society and
            education.

            In Nicanor Perlas Bio-Technology & Anthroposophy, Nicanor researched along
            these lines.

            �Contemporary civilization is in a desperate struggle with the imperatives
            of technology. There are cries for a reintegration of religion with science
            to help stem the tide of technological imperialism. There are pleas for a
            more �empathetic knowledge,� a knowledge of participation rather than of
            instrumental control. There are serious calls for a � predictive ecology� to
            provide future knowledge of the impacts of technologies in the environment
            in advance of their execution. There are even articulations of a � deep
            ecology� perspective that hopes to radically arrest man�s domination over
            nature. In addition, efforts have been undertaken to regulate, and even
            stop, some of the more menacing features of humanities drive to create a
            bio-engineered Garden of Eden.�

            Bradford writes;

            We are in a new chapter of the unfolding of human responsibility and destiny
            from the Garden of Eden. It is past the mid-point of Earth evolution.
            Humanity has received the Ego. The Gods themselves have entered to lift
            mankind from a downward spiral. In the course of evolution from Saturn to
            Vulcan, humanity is past the mid-point of Earth evolution and headed for the
            Jupiter evolution.

            In this symphonic sweep The Michael School and the gigantic gifts of how to
            understand the Cosmic Christ Event has rocked the world of mankind.. We know
            this because the counter forces have been given enormous latitude because
            enormous amounts of wisdom have poured into humanities lap. These recent
            historical events call forth a response. Not only the response of Christ and
            Zarathustra having given copies of Astral Bodies and Etheric Bodies to
            humans on their evolutionary track: but now intense mass Luciferic thinking
            in our science communities in regards to cloning and copies of human beings,
            animals and plants. Reincarnation and the reality of that which comes into
            fill a human Form is deliberately being side tracked by the forces of
            thinking in the scientific and religious community that have refused to
            grasp what both Nietzsche and Hitler added to off set the balance of in
            streaming wisdom focused through the work of Steiner and others.

            Laws of Science in the Atom have become new gateways for Beings of Miltonian
            and Tolkienian status.. Matter with specific laws now sound like codes to a
            riddle that humanity has not caught up with. Humanity has not held deep
            moral considerations with the shattering import and timing that recent
            events in twentieth century history were delivered to us with. This is no
            game. However the tendencies and who holds the power of laws that manipulate
            man and Nature is beginning to sound like this.

            http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/tolkien.htm

            "Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
            --Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
            Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
            --One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lie.
            --One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
            --One Ring to bring the all in the darkness bind them
            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lie."
            (from The Lord of the Rings)

            ��- the epic The Lord of the Rings has a depth that fascinate adult readers.
            The title of the book refers to Sauron, the embodiment of evil in
            Middle-Earth. Sauron created the Rings of Power, and the One Ring, which
            rules the other rings and thus makes him the Lord of the Rings. Actually the
            story depicts different reactions of its characters, from men to hobbits,
            elves and other beings, to evil forces. This is why the work is not an
            fantasy version of WW II, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but more
            related to Milton's Paradise Lost. Sauron manifests himself in the form of a
            lidless Eye, which sees nearly everything.

            "'The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic
            work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is
            why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to
            anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For
            the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism." (from a
            letter in 1953 to Robert Murray, a Jesuit priest, in The Letters of J.R.R.
            Tolkien, 1981)

            Milton observes the moment of Astral body error in his epic.

            "So spake the fervent Angel; but his zeal
            None seconded, as out of season judged
            Or 30 singular and rash. Whereat rejoiced
            The Apostate 31, and, more haughty, thus replied:&emdash;

            "'That we were formed, then, say'st thou? and the work
            Of secondary hands, by task transferred
            From Father to his Son? Strange point and new!
            Doctrine which we would know whence learned! Who saw
            When this creation was? Rememberst thou
            Thy making, while the Maker gave thee being?
            We know no time when we were not as now;
            Know none before us, self-begot, self-raised
            By our own quickening power when fatal course
            Had circled his full orb, the birth mature
            Of this our native Heaven, Ethereal Sons. 32
            Our puissance is our own; our own right hand
            Shall teach us highest deeds, by proof to try
            Who is our equal. Then thou shalt behold
            Whether by supplication we intend
            Address, and to begirt the Almighty Throne
            Beseeching or besieging. This report,
            These tidings, carry to the Anointed King
            And fly, ere evil intercept thy flight.'
            "He said- and, as the sound of waters deep
            Hoarse murmur echoed to his words applause
            Through the infinite host. Nor less for that
            The flaming Seraph, fearless, though alone,
            Encompassed round with foes, thus answered bold.&emdash;

            "'O alienate from God, O Spirit accursed
            Forsaken of all good! I see thy fall
            Determined and thy hapless crew involved
            In this perfidious fraud, contagion spread
            Both of thy crime and punishment. Henceforth
            No more be troubled how to quit the yoke
            Of God's Messiah. Those indulgent laws
            Will not be now vouchsafed- other decrees
            Against thee are gone forth without recall;
            That golden sceptre which thou didst reject
            Is now an iron rod to bruise and break
            Thy disobedience. Well thou didst advise;
            Yet not for thy advice or threats I fly
            These wicked tents devoted, lest the wrath
            Impendent, raging into sudden flame
            Distinguish not: for soon expect to feel
            His thunder on thy head, devouring fire.
            Then who created thee lamenting learn
            When who can uncreate thee thou shalt know.'

            "So spake the Seraph Abdiel, faithful found
            Among the faithless, faithful only he;
            Among innumerable false unmoved,
            Unshaken, unseduced, unterrified,
            His loyalty he kept, his love, his zeal;
            Nor number nor example with him wrought
            To swerve from truth, or change his constant mind,
            Though single. From amidst them forth he passed,
            Long way through hostile scorn, which he sustained
            Superior, nor of violence feared aught
            And with retorted scorn his back he turned
            On those proud towers, to swift destruction doomed"

            The Poetical Works of John Milton (New York: Macmillan, 1917) by pages
            136-143; footnotes by Richard Hooker

            Steiner continues;

            Who then, in the real sense, was the sinner? Not man as an ego-endowed
            being. Through Lucifer, man became a sinner with one part of his being � the
            part with which, properly speaking, he can no longer be a sinner today, for
            now he has his ego. At that time, therefore, he sinned with his astral body.
            That is the radical difference between the sin we now incur as men and the
            sin which at that time crept into our human nature. When man succumbed to
            the temptation of Lucifer, he succumbed with his astral body. This,
            therefore, is a deed which belongs to the period prior to that of
            ego-development and is entirely different in character from any deed of
            which man has been capable since his ego entered into him � even in its very
            earliest rudiments. It was therefore a deed of man which preceded the entry
            of the ego, but it cast its shadows into all subsequent ages of time. Man's
            nature was such that before receiving his ego, he was able to perform the
            �deed� of lending himself to the Luciferic temptation but through all later
            time he has been under the influence resulting from this deed. In what sense
            under its influence? The consequence of the astral body having incurred
            guilt before man became an ego-endowed being has been that in each
            successive incarnation he sank more deeply into the physical world. The
            impetus for this descent was this action, this deed, which was enacted then
            in the astral body. Man found himself on a steep downward gradient, and with
            his ego he now lends himself to forces in his nature deriving from the stage
            of his evolution preceding that of the development of his ego.

            Bradford writes;

            In Egypt various astral entities behind the Astral World where the future
            moral forces of the Ego shone through reveal Hawk headed men and Crocodile
            features of higher astral Initiation. Today in our labs we are taking these
            same Beings and sexually manipulating them and cross breeding various
            features and astral qualities. Recently we talked about the combination of
            the Goat and the Spider for military research. (fact) The Geep combination
            of Sheep and Goat; Pig and human genetic combinations for organ transplants
            and blood transfusions; Each day we delve deeper into the worlds of Astral
            Beings and former Egyptian mysteries that now appear under the sterile guise
            of the scientist in a lab coat. Sex and Astral Intercourse are really what
            we are looking at when we see the experiments of a little magnified cell
            image and needle impregnating the cell with another form of gene combination
            or chromosome structure.

            Procreating and having sex and mingling forces in the lower innocent
            Kingdoms who shared with humanity the fall, and have become in themselves
            entangled fallen fragments of animal, plant, and mineral worlds that fell
            with humanity and sacrificed themselves from out of our astral, etheric and
            mineral forces from the planet and solar system development of ours and
            their future destinies. These are a lot of so called Astral and Etheric TOYS
            to play with. And behind that stands the unfallen Ego forces of these
            various communities. Certainly what is actually here on Earth can now be
            carried forward and upward by Human Spiritual Intelligence in the Scientific
            community or continue to be infected with arbitrary influences from
            unconscious human errors. Our, I think, is to indicate we are in somewhat of
            a unique position if we intend to give birth to new phase shifts in Beings.
            That which we sow on Earth is sown in Heaven.

            Steiner continues;

            *********** "How did these forces take effect in the evolution of humanity?
            They took effect in the following way. We know that until approximately the
            seventh year of life the physical body of the human being develops, from the
            seventh to the fourteenth years the etheric body, from the fourteenth to the
            twenty-first years the astral body, and so on. When the development of the
            etheric body has been completed, man reaches the stage when he is able to
            propagate his kind. (We will not now consider what form this takes in the
            animal kingdom.) When the etheric body has fully developed, the human being
            is able to reproduce his kind. Anyone who gives a little thought to this �
            he need not be clairvoyant but only reflect a little � will say: when the
            development of the etheric body is complete it is possible for a human being
            to bring forth another of his kind in the fullest sense. This means that as
            he grows on into the twenties he can develop no new procreative powers. It
            cannot be said that a man of 30 adds anything to this capacity to propagate
            his kind; he possesses it to the full as soon as the development of his
            etheric body is complete. What factor is added later? Nothing that he
            himself subsequently acquires is added, for he already possesses the power
            of propagation to the full when the etheric body is completely developed.

            What, then, is added? As far as the full power to propagate his kind is
            concerned, the one and only capacity subsequently added by the human being
            is that of being in a position to vitiate, to weaken it. What he can still
            acquire after the full development of his etheric body cannot enrich the
            actual power to propagate his kind, but can only impoverish it. The fact is
            that qualities acquired after the onset of puberty contribute nothing to the
            improvement of the human race but only make for its deterioration. This is
            due to the influence of the impulse which proceeds from the guilt incurred
            by the astral body.

            After the etheric body has fully developed, that is to say, at about the
            fourteenth year, the astral body develops further. Yes, but the influence of
            Lucifer is implanted in the astral body! What works back again from there
            into the functioning of the etheric body can only have the effect of
            weakening the forces of the etheric body which enable man to propagate his
            kind. In other words: what the astral body has become as the result of the
            temptation of Lucifer is a perpetual cause of degeneration and deterioration
            of the human race. And this has actually happened. �

            Bradford writes;

            The Sentient teenage astral forces with zits and chaotic emotional lives are
            being tracked upwards from the time of the Egyptian Cultural period and
            mainlined into the American Folk development. The Founding Fathers connected
            our karma to the Egyptian stream. At that time in history the Adolescent
            phase of human evolution was under way. This stream of the Astral body into
            the Etheric body of humanity and the investigation of animal Archetypes and
            Animal Group Soul entities represented a high phase of Egyptian Initiation
            and research. The Science of the West is now walking unconsciously into the
            higher Astral phases research of merging various patterns and Beings of
            animal and human and animal and plant into new arbitrary combinations. Look
            at the Scorpio King of Egypt and the Mummy film developments and they form
            patterns of research that are equal to �The Sixth Day� and Spielberg�s �
            A-I�.

            http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/EgyPan.html

            ********* "A note on animal iconography. The Egyptian divinities are
            well-known for being portrayed with the heads and visages of various beasts.
            The relationship between the divinities and such creatures is complex, and
            beyond the scope of this article. Nevertheless, it should be noted that
            these creatures were not necessarily the only animals sacred to the God or
            Goddess they are connected with, or that they were the exclusive figure used
            to image the divinity - in some cases the God or Goddess claimed more than
            one animal, and in some cases the God or Goddess was portrayed with any of
            several different creatures faces. Even so, in most cases a particular
            creature was almost always used to image a divinity, and I have provided a
            note indicating what beast icon was utilized commonly or exclusively. "

            http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos446.htm

            "The ancient Egyptians didn't worship animals. They had sacred animals, but
            what they worship was the Divine Principle made manifest in that animal.
            Hence, the Serapis bull symbolized the Divine Principle of Strength. The
            Baboon of Thoth for two things: Society (baboons have, among the animals,
            one of the most complex societies), and of Contemplation (Baboons will sit
            and watch the Sun rise, among other
            things). Horus with the Hawk, one who sees or watches the earth from
            above, and sees it extremely well (hawks and birds of prey have a binocular
            vision of about 7x power); Hence the celestial Horus eyes were the Sun and
            the Moon. The attributes of Bast and of the Cat is very close.

            And so, to the Egyptian, while man is an example of ALL the powers of all
            the god/desses; certain animals manifest specific powers, and manifest them
            more than man. Hence they worship the power behind the animals. Observe
            outside, observe inside, you begin to see the relations between things. An
            animal does not reason, it experiences directly. Man is deceived by the
            incomplete testimony of his senses and his reason and has allowed the
            instinctive consciousness to atrophy without having learned to use his
            intuitive faculties which to the Egyptians, is the wisdom of the heart.
            Therefore there are ancient rituals to strengthen the heart."

            (note example of Astral Projection in the film �The Emerald Forest� rent it.

            http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EgyptMyth/19080910p01.html

            ******* �I have already pointed out that the older representations of Isis
            were as follows: Isis is suckling Horus; but behind her stands a second Isis
            with vulture wings, who holds out the Ankh to Horus to indicate that man
            stems from a time when these types were still separate and that later the
            other astral being also sank down into man. This second Isis points to how
            the astral element predominated at one time. What was later united with the
            human form is here portrayed behind the mother, as the astral form that
            would have had vulture wings if it had followed only the astrality. But the
            time when the etheric body predominated is portrayed in a third Isis,
            lion-headed, behind the others. This threefold Isis is thus presented out of
            a deep vision.�

            Steiner indicates;

            ******* �There has been continuous deterioration in man through the course
            of the incarnations. The farther we go back towards the Atlantean epoch, the
            more do we find in the physical endowments of man, higher forces than were
            working in later times. Where, then, was the impulse activated in the astral
            body through the temptation of Lucifer, implanted? It was implanted in
            heredity, causing increasing deterioration in that process. Sin that man
            incurs with his ego may work back upon the astral body and can only take
            effect in karma; but the sin incurred by man before he had an ego,
            contributes to a continual degeneration and deterioration of the human race
            as a whole. This sin became an inheritance.

            And just as it is true that no human being can inherit anything from his
            ancestors in the higher, spiritual sense � for nobody is clever because he
            has a clever father but because he learns things that make for cleverness
            (nobody has yet inherited the principles of mathematics or other such
            concepts from his ancestors) � just as we cannot inherit these capacities
            but acquire them through education, it is equally true that what works back
            into the etheric body from the astral body, contributes only to the
            undermining of the faculties of the human race. There we have the true
            meaning of the concept of �Original Sin�. The Original Sin which still
            persisted in the human astral body was handed down by gradual transmission
            and imparted itself to the hereditary qualities � which were themselves
            involved in the process of physical degeneration � as a factor in man's
            descent from spiritual heights into physical degeneration.

            So the legacy of Lucifer's influence has been a continuous impulse which in
            the very truest sense must be designated as Original Sin; for what entered
            into the human astral body through Lucifer is transmitted from generation to
            generation. There is no more appropriate term for the real cause of man's
            fall into the material-physical world than the expression: Original Sin,
            Inherited Sin.

            But our conception of the Original Sin must differ from that of other sins
            of ordinary life which are to be attributed entirely to ourselves: we must
            think of Original Sin as a destiny of man, as something that had inevitably
            to be imposed upon us by the World Order, because this World Order was
            obliged to lead us downwards � not in order to worsen us but in order to
            awaken in us the forces wherewith again to work our way upwards. We must
            therefore conceive of this Fall as something that has been woven into human
            destiny for the sake of the freeing of mankind. We could never have become
            free beings had we not been thrust downwards; we should have been tied to
            the strings of a World Order which we should have been obliged to follow
            blindly. What we have to do is to work our own way upwards again. �

            ****** ��we are facing a future when these ideas must no longer grovel
            before us as abstractions but approach us as living forces. True as it is
            that men have passed through the transitional stage of forming abstract
            ideals, it is equally true that they must advance to the stage where these
            ideals come to personal fulfillment within them; they must advance to the
            portal of the new Temple. That is the prospect before us. Men will be taught
            that what works down from spiritual heights is not mere abstraction but
            living reality. When the new faculty of vision that is to arise in the next
            phase of evolution begins to function, when men give up thinking, �How well
            I am getting on!

            Our thoughts cannot carry us into the true spiritual worlds because they
            have no life. Not until we cease to regard these thoughts as our own
            creations but as testimonies of the Living Christ Who will appear to men,
            shall we rightly understand these thoughts. Then, as truly as man became a
            personality through descending with his ego into lower spheres, as truly
            will he be a personality when he ascends to the heights of spirit.

            This is beyond the comprehension of materialistic thinking. All that
            materialism can understand, and readily understand, is that there are
            abstract ideals, ideals of the Good, the Beautiful, and so forth. That there
            are living Powers who draw us upwards through their Grace � this can be
            realized only through spiritual development. That is what the renewed Christ
            Impulse means. When we no longer regard our ideals simply as ideals but
            through them find the way to Christ, then we help Christianity forward in
            the sense of Spiritual Science; then Christianity will enter a new stage and
            cease to be merely a preparation.

            Christianity will itself make evident that it contains the greatest of all
            impulses for all time to come. And then those who believe that to speak of
            developing Christianity is only to endanger it will see how greatly they are
            in error. These are the people of �little faith�, who are alarmed when it is
            said that in Christianity there are glories still greater than have yet been
            revealed. Those whose conception of Christianity bears the hallmark of
            greatness are men who know that the words that Christ is with us to the end
            of time are true � meaning that He is the constant Revealer of the New and
            at the same time its origin and source.�

            Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
            That saved a wretch like me.
            I once was lost, but now am found,
            Was blind, but now I see.

            'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
            And grace my fears relieved.
            How precious did that grace appear
            The hour I first believed.

            Through many dangers, toils and snares
            I have already come;
            'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
            And grace will lead me home.

            The Lord has promised good to me
            His word my hope secures;
            He will my shield and portion be,
            As long as life endures.

            Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
            and mortal life shall cease,
            I shall possess within the veil,
            A life of joy and peace.

            When we've been there ten thousand years
            Bright shining as the sun,
            We've no less days to sing God's praise
            Than when we've first begun.

            John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)






            Joksu wrote;

            >A secret traditoin tells: Cain was a human being, who later
            >incarnated as Hiram Abif. King Solomon was an Abel-character, in all
            >his wisdom serving and humble; he was a magician. But Cain, who
            >was "greater in skills", was born as Hiram Abif, and without him King
            >Solomon could not build his temple. Solomon had to be allied with
            >Hiram Abif, Abel with Cain. And Hiram Abif incarnated later as
            >Lazarus, whom Jesus Christ "raised from the dead" and who was also
            >apostle John (here we can also remember what Bradford have written
            >about John the Babtist.) And St.John incarnated later as Christian
            >Rosenkreutz, that great Master, who is immensly near Jesus Christ and
            >is behind all occult and mystical organisations in the "west". He is
            >a wonderful example to us all, how to rise from a fall to great
            >hights.
            >
            >Then there is still the karmic aspect. When Cain had killed Abel,
            >Cain said to God that now anyone can kill him. Cain is told that if
            >he is killed, there will be sevenfold revenge. I link this event to a
            >certain "karmic start", where the karma is wielded by the planetary
            >spirit. And now it is clearly the karma and "dharma" (spiritual duty)
            >of this Rosenkreutz stream to see, that this karma is "redeemed"
            >and "transferred to the hand of Christ". It has a lot to do with the
            >new Mystery School, which Dr. Steiner worked for (but he could only
            >open the first from the three "degrees"). It has also tight links to
            >the "second coming of Christ" and the karmic changes attached to it.
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
          • elaineupton2001
            Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread, Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams, with Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel,
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 29, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread,

              Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams, with
              Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel, side, and with Hiram Abif
              through to Lazarus/John and Christian Rosenkreutz on the other -Cain--
              side. This is food for thought. Your further speculations on St.
              Francis (??), Jouko, I will let rest for now; yet I do appreciate
              your willingness to come forward here.

              Somewhere Steiner talks about the "St. Francis" soul having had an
              earlier (medieval?) incarnation among Buddhists. I believe this is in
              the lectures on Morality (can't remember the exact title of these
              lectures on St. Francis).

              In any case, I find it important to redeem the stream of Christian
              Rosenkreutz from the unclarity (in my view) to which it appears at
              least to have fallen in various Rosicrucian organizations today.
              Steiner also somewhere (i forget the title under which his lectures
              or published) speaks of three streams--1)Rosicrucian, and is the 2nd
              Manicheean, and the 3rd? Can someone help me here???
              The three also come together somehow, or is it two instead of three?

              Who of us identifies with one or other of these various streams?

              Of the Cain-Abel stream, I think both are important, but I definitely
              identify more strongly with the Cain stream. Thinking, risk taking,
              going beyond priestly authority, and also the idea of being
              the "farmer/gardener", where one uses thinking, risk taking to
              create, Co-create with God, rather than be a passive nomadic
              shepherd, although this way also has it's place, but I am drawn to
              the Cain --Rosenkreuz stream more than the other.

              Thanks for re-minding me!

              Please, anyone, if you can help with my questions above, I will
              appreciate it.
              ((I am less often on computer, but should return here by Thursday to
              read and reply.))

              Your servant,
              elaine
            • joksu57
              ... with ... Cain-- ... in ... 2nd ... definitely ... to ... joksu writes: Hello Elaine and any of this thread! The occultist to whom I referred in my original
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 30, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@h...> wrote:
                >
                Elaine wrote:

                > Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread,
                >
                > Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams,
                with
                > Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel, side, and with Hiram Abif
                > through to Lazarus/John and Christian Rosenkreutz on the other -
                Cain--
                > side. This is food for thought. Your further speculations on St.
                > Francis (??), Jouko, I will let rest for now; yet I do appreciate
                > your willingness to come forward here.
                >
                > Somewhere Steiner talks about the "St. Francis" soul having had an
                > earlier (medieval?) incarnation among Buddhists. I believe this is
                in
                > the lectures on Morality (can't remember the exact title of these
                > lectures on St. Francis).
                >
                > In any case, I find it important to redeem the stream of Christian
                > Rosenkreutz from the unclarity (in my view) to which it appears at
                > least to have fallen in various Rosicrucian organizations today.
                > Steiner also somewhere (i forget the title under which his lectures
                > or published) speaks of three streams--1)Rosicrucian, and is the
                2nd
                > Manicheean, and the 3rd? Can someone help me here???
                > The three also come together somehow, or is it two instead of three?
                >
                > Who of us identifies with one or other of these various streams?
                >
                > Of the Cain-Abel stream, I think both are important, but I
                definitely
                > identify more strongly with the Cain stream. Thinking, risk taking,
                > going beyond priestly authority, and also the idea of being
                > the "farmer/gardener", where one uses thinking, risk taking to
                > create, Co-create with God, rather than be a passive nomadic
                > shepherd, although this way also has it's place, but I am drawn to
                > the Cain --Rosenkreuz stream more than the other.
                >
                > Thanks for re-minding me!
                >
                > Please, anyone, if you can help with my questions above, I will
                > appreciate it.
                > ((I am less often on computer, but should return here by Thursday
                to
                > read and reply.))
                >
                > Your servant,
                > elaine

                joksu writes:

                Hello Elaine and any of this thread!

                The occultist to whom I referred in my original message about the
                lecture "Cain" (Mr. Ervast) has also said, that St. Francis have been
                a "typical disciple of Buddha" in some previous incarnation (no
                timescale indicated). As I said, I just speculated (which can be
                stupid in these affairs) about a possible "line" from saint to a
                macigian.

                About the manichean stream (which has a lot to do with the question,
                how we approach and deal with the "evil") there are some good points
                in S. Prokoffjef's book concerning the spiritual significance of
                forgiving. (From this author that book is my favourite.) I think that
                in some sense the manichean stream is considered "higher" than the
                rosicrucian one in this book. Perhaps this "manicheanism" could be
                added as the third factor, when we compare these lines to
                the "trinity in man": Mani - Cain - Abel??

                Well, I think that I have more questions than answers. I have also
                pondered about the "pairs": Cain - Abel
                Hiram Abif - Solomon
                Lazarus/
                St. John - John the Babtist
                Rosenkreutz- St. Germain
                and then: Steiner - ???. Is something still
                missing?

                Then there is the old legend, which says that Abel was the first son
                by Adam and Eve. Cain was older and according to this legend his
                father was a "spritual being" called Samael. This in some way
                explains the differences between Cain and Abel. This name "Samael"
                can point to some earlier periods in the "Earth-evolution", possibly
                to Saturn-period. (This connection always reminds me of
                the "Wälsungen" in the Ring-cycle; they are "Cain-types". And when we
                think that farmer is working with soil (=mineral kingdom), then in
                the Saturn period the mankind was in a stage, which can be compared
                to mineral kingdom.)

                Oops, it just occured to me that this text is probably not exactly
                what could be called "redeeming the stream of Rosenkreutz from
                unclarity"! But sometimes questions can be at least as valuable as
                answers.

                About identification and the various streams: I also have a close
                affinity to the Rosenkreutz stream (even though I can hardly manage
                to keep alive a cactus in my apartment!), but this third stream is
                also very interesting. Perhaps it has something to do with the
                balance between thinking and feeling (Cain and Abel). Then the
                real "will-function" is possible and also winning the evil without
                fighting against it.

                Warm Regards
                Jouko
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.