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Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ

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  • elaineupton2001
    Hello Bradford and all, Bradford, I am still reading you on the astral body of Christ and related. Am struck by the mention of Zarathustra (earlier
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 11, 2002
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      Hello Bradford and all,
      Bradford, I am still reading you on the "astral body of Christ" and
      related. Am struck by the mention of Zarathustra (earlier incarnation
      of the Jesus..)who, you write, gifted his astral body to pupils. Also
      what you say about cloning and about the phenomenon of imitation is
      very interesting (with transvestites, impersonators, etc.), this as a
      kind of astral distortion of something that is otherwise wonderfully
      rich.

      You mention a kind of spiritual intercourse. Yes. What is it that
      links certain persons very closely? People who sleep together night
      after night, as their astral bodies go out from the physical and
      etheric body? People who are strongly drawn to each other, in love or
      friendship, or even in hate and murderous deeds when there is a
      personal touch (even if distorted)? Intercourse or deep meeting of
      the astral bodies? But then there is the ideal: "Where two or three
      are gathered in my Name, there I AM in the midst."

      Our dear Joel Wendt, I believe, has spoken or written of the Christ
      Medium (the I AM in the midst). This Medium unites the astral bodies
      of those gathered in "My Name", or? How is that?

      How does all this relate to the Double? The shadow? What exactly is
      doubled?

      I think of Heathcliff and Catherine Earnshaw in Emily Bronte's
      wonderful novel, Wuthering Heights. One of my favorite lines in all
      of literature is this by Catherine, when Nelly Dean asks Catherine
      why she is so interested in this ruffian Heathcliff, Catherine
      forcefully replies, "I am Heathcliff!"

      Sort of the opposite of Judas's kiss where he says "he is the one,"
      the kiss of betrayal. And yet, Judas and this Christ are intimately
      linked also. A murderer is linked to the one he or she murders.

      ((This comes up in grossly distorted form in Norman Mailer's novel,
      the American Dream, where the man kills a woman and has orgasm in the
      act, so that it seems a distorted sexual act, the entrance with the
      knife or sword)).

      No physical instrument can adequately measure relationship, bond
      between and among people and animals and other beings. The
      connections between astral bodies (later, etheric bodies, though this
      one is a higher stage) is amazing to contemplate, and maybe to
      glimpse...

      Cloning? "Forgive them, for they [we] know not what they do!"
      It's like taking the Book of Kells and reproducing it on a xerox
      machine, or worse! Like an ad trying to make processed food look
      delicious (that artificial feeling--artifice of astrality), and the
      processed food itself is an artifice of the etheric (a distortion).

      HOw important to educate children to have healthy instincts about
      these things and the whole question of human development and what it
      is to be truly human!

      You mention St. FRancis and the stigmate, in reference to his
      attainment of the astral body of Christ. But St. Elizabeth? I know
      virtually nothing of her. What was her Christ experience?--And
      Wartburg Castle? What is it you are busy with here, if you don't mind
      saying?

      I'll be away for the long weekend, but plan to return to computer
      next week, Monday...

      Thanks for your rich contribution.
      elaine
    • Br. Ron
      Bradford writes; Understanding the [Bodies of Christ] ... Speaking of Wartburg castle and the Astral Body of Christ, you must have put on the ghost of
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 11, 2002
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        Bradford writes; Understanding the [Bodies of Christ]

        > In doing some research on Wartburg Castle, I encountered
        > with new awareness how St. Elizabeth and St. Francis
        > received the Astral Body of the Christ Being.

        Speaking of Wartburg castle and the Astral Body of Christ,
        you must have put on the ghost of Eschenbach himself
        when you had that metanoia. There is certainly a connection
        with that castle.

        I forget my sources but I have read a couple of other accounts
        from Arthurian bards claiming that King Arthur was infused
        with the Solar Body when his father Uther was partially taken
        over by the Teutonic Sun God Hoel. It was this Universal Christic
        appeal that put Igraine into a swoon that made her see her
        beloved husbandman in Uther and yield to him.

        Methinks this Zarathustra gets around!


        > Many was the New York Transvestite or Elvis, Marylyn
        > or Judy Garland imitator (note I AM I in imi-tator) who
        > perhaps caught a copy of the duplicated astral shadow
        > and double that was invested with lower astral beings.
        > As our current technology and culture has progressed
        > we are interested in cloning and making copies of
        > individuals without even grasping that perhaps an etheric
        > copy or an astral copy might exist.

        Cloning indeed has some ominous implications.
        Right or wrong, I think we are going to clone a human
        soon and find out what happens. Do the higher bodies
        feel the stress of responsibility and split between the
        copies? I know that when recording analog music, there
        is a loss......a generational degradation with each copy made.

        I intrinsically feel that cloning is not cool...yet one can't
        help but to wonder...

        > Did they encounter highly potent astral beings prior to
        > incarnation which are incubating and preparing copies
        > of the fallen forces of Elvis, James Dean, Marylyn, and
        > those beings we call 'Stars' who really only represent
        > the demonic Idols on the coffee tables of men?

        The shells...they are everywhere...so many shells!

        I don't want to get too deeply into ethno-politics but I have
        been receiving information about these qliphotic overshadowing
        of certain DNA lineages....holding a secondary reverberation
        of the "sins of the fathers" but that is a whole can of worms
        I don't want to risk a cyber war over.....not just yet, anyway.

        > Now the Church and the human mind must be confronted
        > with not only the Body of Christ, but the Bodies of Christ and
        > this is a vast mystery that makes the Church obsolete and
        > unable to navigate any longer but rather burdened with
        > its own load of obsolete traditions.

        Consider this...all Christendom (and other Solar egregore)
        will be redeemed...including the Church and traditions of the past.
        As of now, the Church is but a museum...albeit one with incredible
        Beauty and Art placed within it's astral architecture over the ages.
        There will be forgiveness for it's errors as there will be for us.

        Today Christianity is boringly mainstream. Yet often its the
        main stream that reaches the sea first.

        But I don't see this all congealing into the Solar Astral Light
        until that which is NOT of this Light is identified by the shining
        of the true Logos. (1 John 4:3)

        > In St. Francis we see the results of the full in take of the
        >Astral Body of Christ into the most receptive devoted
        >vehicle. We see It's ramifications all the way down through
        > his toes and his physical form. He doesn't, as yet,
        > as far as we know, explore and unfold the enormous wealth
        >of the Astral body and put it in terms we can understand
        > with our minds, as thought, as science as education.
        > St. Francis becomes that Astral Body in his Higher members
        > andit radiates right down into his stigmata. The Astral Body
        > of Christ.

        > Oh, if we understood this in our hearts... Oh so, so stunningly
        > strange to be able to lift up this veil and say... I am learning
        > and discovering the great Astral Body of Christ that can be
        > learned on earth now and viewed with even more intensity,
        > but only if you encountered it here, experienced it
        > here, will it fully awaken on the other side of the threshold.

        I thirst! I want it ALL...NOW! (get thou behind me o' impatient tempter)

        > He offered a building with the full reflection of the great work of
        > outlining the Astral Body of the Christ Being and placing a living
        > image of it on the Earth. Who would let such a thing stand
        > in it's beautiful organic wood and let it radiate and live as
        > the full revelation of the Astral Body of Christ brought down
        > into the physical world? Darkness would not allow it to live
        > it had to be destroyed.

        I wish there were more pictures taken of the first Goetheanum.
        The only one I've seen is that one outside shot of RS viewing
        his sculpted bust of Ahriman. Do you know of more, Bradford?

        > Steiner actually wept at the Burning of the First Goetheanum.
        > Who, who would not have wept? Steiner wept only because
        > when it was burned to the ground he knew that we of the future
        > would not be able to see that it was the wonderful revelation on
        > Earth of the Cosmic Astral /Manas Body of Christ.

        Whadda guy!

        > There is the Astral Body of Christ; The Etheric Body; The Atma,
        > Buddhi and Manas bodies.. and we shall unfold all of them as
        > we arise to become gods and now we look at Spiritual
        > Science and we say.. For Christ's sake! Thank you for giving
        > a little piece of the bread of the Logos, for taking the time
        > and appealing to my shabby little intellect that I too can
        > touch the hem of the garment of the Risen Christ and be thankful.

        Wow, Bradford....wow.

        Thank you for such a beautiful writing, my friend.

        Br. Ron
      • Bradford Riley
        Bradford writes; Understanding the [Bodies of Christ] I have on my mind an inner revelation, which, while easy to say, has far deeper conscious reverberations
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 11, 2002
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          Bradford writes; Understanding the [Bodies of Christ]

          I have on my mind an inner revelation, which, while easy to say, has far
          deeper conscious reverberations for me. Sometimes we are just ready to
          understand something that has been percolating for some time. In doing some
          research on Wartburg Castle, I encountered with new awareness how St.
          Elizabeth and St. Francis received the Astral Body of the Christ Being. This
          sunk in. It echoed inside of me as I began to understand the implications.
          It paved the way for something startling, as good things sometimes arise and
          amaze. A quiet startling eye wide wonder, as opposed to eye wide shut
          singular experience.

          It is interesting to hold the understanding that ages ago, and I'm sure you
          can all help me out here, the Nazara.. as in Nazarene, as ZARA and NAZAR
          ties to the location of the Zarathustra Jesus. Zarathustra had a history of
          gifting his higher bodies to his various pupils.

          This insight remained dormant in me for some time, but suddenly reawoke in
          connection to the unfolding of my biography and studied the gift of the
          Astral Body of Christ given to St. Elizabeth and St. Francis. It is an
          interesting
          thought, that Zarathustra/Jesus already had an ability to copy and give his
          highly worked through higher members as gifts to worthy students. A copy of
          Zarathustra's well wrought etheric and astral bodies were given out.

          Each person relates to such an intimacy, to such intercourse within the
          higher members in unique ways. We touch here upon esoteric freedom and the
          student pupil relationship. How the ability to read a book, read the stars
          and think, can also arise as the ability to read and understand the vast
          inner connections someone makes, say Zarathustra, and review the sources and
          insights that led to his vast spiritual conclusions. So having as content in
          your consciousness the encyclopedia Zarathustra it would mockingly be like
          having the data in your own mainframe. You could experience everything about
          the normal history of you, but you would have the additional reference
          library of reviewing another�s vast experience. Childishly and fundamentally
          speaking we could misinterpret how the soul might digest such a gift.

          Many was the New York Transvestite or Elvis, Marylyn or Judy Garland
          imitator (note I AM I in imi-tator) who perhaps caught a copy of the
          duplicated astral shadow and double that was invested with lower astral
          beings. As our current technology and culture has progressed we are
          interested in cloning and making copies of individuals without even grasping
          that perhaps an etheric copy or an astral copy might exist.

          We sometimes see the strangest examples in life of what in the deepest sense
          is profound insight but bent or fractured. Had these imitators once
          experienced such things in a more distorted form in previous incarnations?
          Did they encounter highly potent astral beings prior to incarnation which
          are incubating and preparing copies of the fallen forces of Elvis, James
          Dean, Marylyn, and those beings we call 'Stars' who really only represent
          the demonic Idols on the coffee tables of men? But we have invested dense
          forces into them and given lower astral entities a life of their own because
          of our idiotic and false media inspired hero worship. Besides since
          Zarthustra/Jesus transferred and gifted his higher members to students way
          back current demons and ahrimanic beings are also schooling themselves to do
          this as well. But with the added value of being cheap imitators Jerry
          Springer continues to buy it. It is amazing what we fall for in life.

          To continue:; I'm standing imaginatively, lets say, in the 1st Goetheanum
          and looking up at the cupola painting on the ceiling. There I see the
          incredible unfolding pictures of the Christ Being and his vivid astral
          participation in human history from Alpha to Omega. There where the great
          Statue of the Representative of Man would have been standing, on the center
          of the stage, nearly 30 feet high; framed by a semi-circle of 12 wood carved
          seats on the stage; with beautiful rhythmic pillars of Trees with various
          planetary rhythms and tree essences that move the whole spatial and cosmic
          picture through the great hall; and directly above the Great Statue of the
          Representative of Humanity, the Astral image of the Christ on Golgotha, with
          shimmering powers flowing deep into the earth gripping gravity and Ahrimanic
          death forces; and above the Luciferic sunlight of nature and pagan forces,
          swept up into the radiant glory of the Incarnate death defeating Logos. The
          magnificent cupola of the First Goetheanum depicts in living colors what the
          Statue reveals below in magnificent wood.

          http://www.eberhardarnold.com/movements/ea17_02.htm

          "The tremendous building in Dornach, Switzerland erected in a towering
          double cupola with its seven pillars arranged symmetrically on each side,
          has caused many who knew but little about Rudolf Steiner and his success as
          a person, a speaker, and a writer to be surprised about the extent to which
          his influence has grown. This remarkable temple, as an educational
          institution of the humanities in Steiner's sense, claims to put forward in
          courses of lectures and artistic contributions his concept of the soul."

          Bradford continues;

          Now I fully grasp that Thomas Aquinas was one of those who also received the
          Astral Body of Christ. Received the Astral Body of Christ (It stuns one to
          repeat it because I am not yet even close to grasping it.), which has sunk
          into me a bit now after all these years, but recently very clearly it sank
          in deeper. It grows inwardly for me now a little more, the experience of
          understanding how this unique Astral Body of the Christ would be a stunning
          gift? We look back in time and see Thomas as a Grail servant who actually
          was killed instead of Parsifal. Schionatulander was diplomatic emissary to
          Haroun al Raschid for all that was the wild Grail and Arthurian Celtic
          impulse. Oh and I cannot forget the whole gamut of history of this
          individual going back through the Greek period and his friendship with a
          certain character called Plato.

          Further still we find that the many-breasted Diana mystery, reveals her
          bountiful Lunar star breasts feeding all manner of species of beings from
          the mystery center at Ephesus. Well I need not go all the way back to Uruk
          but he is there as well. So here is the mystery. A most stirring, soul
          enriching experience and one that I have not heard many souls embrace as
          they bash Spiritual Science.

          The mystery is that the wide thinking and Astral meal of the Christ's astral
          body has been methodically served up for a Conciousness Soul meal for those
          who wish to slowly attain the Wedding Garments of the transformed Astral
          body and change it into Manas. This comes off the tongue or written page
          easy, but let the magnificent emotional content sink in.

          The details continue to unfold. We see on earth a massive building which
          represents the full Astral Body of the Christ Being. We walk through the
          mighty lectures delivered, each with their human harmony and human voice. We
          feel the pulse behind the massive lectures covering a thinking process that
          enters into the core of creation's deepest mysteries and carries the mighty
          7 and 9 fold pattern of the micrologos and unites it with the Macrologos.
          The opportunity to create a building that reflects that Astral Body, and
          bring into practical reality secrets of what that Astral Body could produce
          for mankind if we understood it, becomes Steiner's great pleasure. The
          Astral Body of Christ, Oh, Oh, Oh...

          When we see the structure of the John Gospel and Revelation we also see how
          the gigantic Astral body of the Christ was unfolded with the layout and
          chapters of his work, the inner rhythms of the events... nay the cosmic
          Alpha Omega biographical sketch, as seen in its cosmic extensions is built
          into John's works and continues profoundly all the way into the Chymical
          Wedding.

          But Steiner brings the Christ's Astral body in translated chunks,
          pieces, full meals, raising thinking to union, to marriage, to absorb into
          our Astral thinking field the potential to grasp the immense Astral Body of
          a God, an Elohim. We get to think and learn to swim in the wonder of such a
          strange profound gift with page after page of insight, connections, clarity,
          substance, science, ethics, wonder and above all Truth. An Astral body of
          the nature we are talking about is Know the Truth and the Truth shall set
          you free. I AM the way, the Truth and the Life (as a cosmic Being the
          Christ has a cosmic Logos Astral Body of immense dimensions and we all have
          pieces of
          that within us. It is to become our Wedding garment)

          How does it matter that Christ was in a solidified human form and contained
          within his walking revelation of human body, The Cosmos? That is the
          difference between understanding the solidification of Spiritual faculties
          and members into an operating system of Man, as opposed to the uncondensed
          wide spread Etheric Earth, Astral Cosmos and Physical Solar System
          uncalibrated and spread out in the vast vistas of soul/spirit/ and physical
          life. It walked and existed in a Man and as a Man, it can gift the various
          higher members- Manas, Buddhi and Atma to qualified individuals. Now the
          Church and the human mind must be confronted with not only the Body of
          Christ, but the Bodies of Christ and this is a vast mystery that makes the
          Church obsolete and unable to navigate any longer but rather burdened with
          its own load of obsolete traditions.

          Now if we change the definition of AS or Anthrosociety, and naturally there
          has been a great deal spoken about 'Mother and Daughter' aspects of the
          society but so many head games cloud the real issue. The real issue, and
          share with me this moment on the threshold if you can; Because indeed we can
          write it out fully at some point, but the stunning revelation that here we
          participate with the Feeding of the Five Thousand in the Fifth epoch and we
          become the Astral Daughters and prime ourselves to understand and change our
          Astral bodies and our thinking because Thomas Aquinas went in a different
          direction than St. Francis.

          In St. Francis we see the results of the full in take of the Astral Body of
          Christ into the most receptive devoted vehicle. We see It's ramifications
          all the way down through his toes and his physical form. He doesn't, as yet,
          as far as we know, explore and unfold the enormous wealth of the Astral body
          and put it in terms we can understand with our minds, as thought, as science
          as education. St. Francis becomes that Astral Body in his Higher members and
          it radiates right down into his stigmata. The Astral Body of Christ.

          Oh, if we understood this in our hearts... Oh so, so stunningly strange to
          be able to lift up this veil and say... I am learning and discovering the
          great Astral Body of Christ that can be learned on earth now and viewed with
          even more intensity, but only if you encountered it here, experienced it
          here, will it fully awaken on the other side of the threshold.

          But now, here, today, the Christ is not so far away. We turn and examine the
          way the profound thinking of the Sun Logos would unfold causes and effects
          and human karma, medicine, education, agriculture we see wisdom and benefits
          galore. Not merely was it a religious experience for someone with a
          personality like Aristotle, oh no! Aristotle's sober thinking walked into
          the emotional fortress of this new gift, the Astral Body of Christ, and
          considered deeply how to categorize and departmentalize the wonderful
          revelations this Astral Body could give to a thinking soul; what it could
          unveil and reveal within human history.

          Steiner worked out a destiny plan, a
          way to offer this Astral Body of Christ to the human community and place it
          firmly in culture as a fact. How intimate could, should such emotions and
          thinking be when unfolding the content of the Astral Body of Christ? Steiner
          continued to remain wonderfully human in everything he did and said.. After
          all who made the human and the best of the wonders of the human being we
          love anyways? What is this thing that allows us to Love that which is true
          and great in the deeds and wonders of humanity? If the eye were not sun like
          and if our astral bodies were not Christ like... Ask John in the beginning
          of his Gospel.

          The after experience from Easter still ripples on in me. I have a good
          working understanding of astral body, etheric body and ego so I can see the
          higher as well as the more intimate mechanics of the rich tableau presented
          from Spiritual Science. But even now it is still sifted between my heart and
          emotional grasp and the slow vast horizon of the intellectual schematics
          takes its wonderful sweet time to become living content in me. Schematics
          that passed through the human heart of Steiner and were placed into the
          human community by his vast intimate concern for humans in the middle of War
          and global monsters is almost as impressive as St. Francis.

          He offered a building with the full reflection of the great work of
          outlining the Astral Body of the Christ Being and placing a living image of
          it on the Earth. Who would let such a thing stand in it's beautiful organic
          wood and let it radiate and live as the full revelation of the Astral Body
          of Christ brought down into the physical world? Darkness would not allow it
          to live it had to be destroyed. Such a remarkable fact on earth would rock
          the universe off its hinges. Souls would hardly have a convincing chance to
          live out the misguided scientific fields and research that has brought us to
          such confusion today, so that we still cannot fathom What is Man?

          Something stunning that we are afraid to take hold of and see that would
          destroy the precious thing we now cannot recognize, was the reason why
          Steiner actually wept at the Burning of the First Goetheanum. Who, who would
          not have wept? Steiner wept only because when it was burned to the ground he
          knew that we of the future would not be able to see that it was the
          wonderful revelation on Earth of the Cosmic Astral /Manas Body of Christ.

          The Living Building was further backed up by the enormous research and
          treasures unfolded while Steiner walked through this new room in his house,
          the Astral Body of Christ, (Christ was in the House!). There radiating
          outward, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly the mining and translating of the
          vast cosmic treasure trove of the Astral Body of a God into current, warmed
          immortal reason, worked Steiner.

          But to returning to the beginning of this discussion: It is not merely
          Thomas Aquinas who received the Astral Body of Christ, so many others are
          growing and awakening, St. Francis, St. Elizabeth and many, many others. I
          don't know about Mother Teresa and I certainly don't think the Church is
          able to grasp in each instance the true nature of the Saint or just what
          gift has been attained by them. Why? Because the church has no basis for
          understanding the etheric body, astral body the I AM. It has thoughts, but
          these thoughts are just common lousy everyday thoughts that might apply to
          any number of good people.

          The Church cannot research specific incidents. It has nothing to say about
          the ability Zarathustra achieved before he became Jesus. The Church has
          nothing to say about Jesus-Zarathustra-Buddha. It is merely a tattered piece
          of self-sustaining political correctness, with lots of influence into the
          slumbering souls of men. In other words it is an obsolete system that
          teaches more lies than truth and it promotes and attracts predatorial
          molesters under the guise of religion. Because it is no longer religion,
          because religion is the Science of Man and loving the full revelation, of
          the Astral Body of Christ and the secrets of the Spirit of Man and how
          Christ enhanced Man. Certainly the ability of the Church to know any of this
          is beyond their means at present.

          Many unknowns are becoming highly illuminated through the various higher
          members that a God bore on Earth. There is the Physical and Phantom form to
          be attained; There is the Astral Body of Christ; The Etheric Body; The Atma,
          Buddhi and Manas bodies.. and we shall unfold all of them as we arise to
          become gods and now we look at Spiritual Science and we say.. For Christ�s
          sake! Thank you for giving a little piece of the bread of the Logos, for
          taking the time and appealing to my shabby little intellect that I too can
          touch the hem of the garment of the Risen Christ and be thankful.

          But I speak for myself, certainly my awkward indication here, just doesn't
          happen or awaken for you without the proper biographical preparations. It is
          just dawning, more fully on me now.



          _________________________________________________________________
          Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
        • Lisa
          In reading...I am having questions of old terminology and how or if at all they relate to some of the words I read. Old: Father,Son, Holy Ghost (or Holy
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 11, 2002
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            In reading...I am having questions of old terminology and how or if at all they relate to some of the  words I read.

            Old: Father,Son, Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit).....I would like to know how these terms relate in 'anthro' lingo.........what I would like to know is, if what is known as the Holy Ghost , or Holy Spirit is similar at all with what is mentioned as the astral bodi(ies) of Christ? I am going back and forth with this....it sounds like it could be...and that maybe we have just a slight glimmer of this in us..which is the 'good' or the 'love' that is in us....but... when the part of the remembering experiences of Christ comes in....it sounds like no....but....then again....couldn't our spiritual selves be similar to our brains in that we(most) may only have use of a small portion....and that if we could take off the tarnish accumulation, rust and lime deposits and really tune in...that we just may be open to some unbelievable possibilities?...and that maybe these individuals who have had such amazing experiences just may have carefully cleaned off and polished this gem inside of themselves?Kind of a gift that is generously given in love...but that only a few will ever manage to find and grasp and utilize to such a full potential...

            Am I way off , here?  Any direction will be truly appreciated.

            Thank you..... :)

            ~Lisa

              Bradford Riley <holderlin66@...> wrote:


            Bradford writes; Understanding the [Bodies of Christ]

            I have on my mind an inner revelation, which, while easy to say, has far
            deeper conscious reverberations for me. Sometimes we are just ready to
            understand something that has been percolating for some time. In doing some
            research on Wartburg Castle, I encountered with new awareness how St.
            Elizabeth and St. Francis received the Astral Body of the Christ Being. This
            sunk in. It echoed inside of me as I began to understand the implications.
            It paved the way for something startling, as good things sometimes arise and
            amaze. A quiet startling eye wide wonder, as opposed to eye wide shut
            singular experience.

            It is interesting to hold the understanding that ages ago, and I'm sure you
            can all help me out here, the Nazara.. as in Nazarene, as ZARA and NAZAR
            ties to the location of the Zarathustra Jesus. Zarathustra had a history of
            gifting his higher bodies to his various pupils.

            This insight remained dormant in me for some time, but suddenly reawoke in
            connection to the unfolding of my biography and studied the gift of the
            Astral Body of Christ given to St. Elizabeth and St. Francis. It is an
            interesting
            thought, that Zarathustra/Jesus already had an ability to copy and give his
            highly worked through higher members as gifts to worthy students. A copy of
            Zarathustra's well wrought etheric and astral bodies were given out.

            Each person relates to such an intimacy, to such intercourse within the
            higher members in unique ways. We touch here upon esoteric freedom and the
            student pupil relationship. How the ability to read a book, read the stars
            and think, can also arise as the ability to read and understand the vast
            inner connections someone makes, say Zarathustra, and review the sources and
            insights that led to his vast spiritual conclusions. So having as content in
            your consciousness the encyclopedia Zarathustra it would mockingly be like
            having the data in your own mainframe. You could experience everything about
            the normal history of you, but you would have the additional reference
            library of reviewing another�s vast experience. Childishly and fundamentally
            speaking we could misinterpret how the soul might digest such a gift.

            Many was the New York Transvestite or Elvis, Marylyn or Judy Garland
            imitator (note I AM I in imi-tator) who perhaps caught a copy of the
            duplicated astral shadow and double that was invested with lower astral
            beings. As our current technology and culture has progressed we are
            interested in cloning and making copies of individuals without even grasping
            that perhaps an etheric copy or an astral copy might exist.

            We sometimes see the strangest examples in life of what in the deepest sense
            is profound insight but bent or fractured. Had these imitators once
            experienced such things in a more distorted form in previous incarnations?
            Did they encounter highly potent astral beings prior to incarnation which
            are incubating and preparing copies of the fallen forces of Elvis, James
            Dean, Marylyn, and those beings we call 'Stars' who really only represent
            the demonic Idols on the coffee tables of men? But we have invested dense
            forces into them and given lower astral entities a life of their own because
            of our idiotic and false media inspired hero worship. Besides since
            Zarthustra/Jesus transferred and gifted his higher members to students way
            back current demons and ahrimanic beings are also schooling themselves to do
            this as well. But with the added value of being cheap imitators Jerry
            Springer continues to buy it. It is amazing what we fall for in life.

            To continue:; I'm standing imaginatively, lets say, in the 1st Goetheanum
            and looking up at the cupola painting on the ceiling. There I see the
            incredible unfolding pictures of the Christ Being and his vivid astral
            participation in human history from Alpha to Omega. There where the great
            Statue of the Representative of Man would have been standing, on the center
            of the stage, nearly 30 feet high; framed by a semi-circle of 12 wood carved
            seats on the stage; with beautiful rhythmic pillars of Trees with various
            planetary rhythms and tree essences that move the whole spatial and cosmic
            picture through the great hall; and directly above the Great Statue of the
            Representative of Humanity, the Astral image of the Christ on Golgotha, with
            shimmering powers flowing deep into the earth gripping gravity and Ahrimanic
            death forces; and above the Luciferic sunlight of nature and pagan forces,
            swept up into the radiant glory of the Incarnate death defeating Logos. The
            magnificent cupola of the First Goetheanum depicts in living colors what the
            Statue reveals below in magnificent wood.

            http://www.eberhardarnold.com/movements/ea17_02.htm

            "The tremendous building in Dornach, Switzerland erected in a towering
            double cupola with its seven pillars arranged symmetrically on each side,
            has caused many who knew but little about Rudolf Steiner and his success as
            a person, a speaker, and a writer to be surprised about the extent to which
            his influence has grown. This remarkable temple, as an educational
            institution of the humanities in Steiner's sense, claims to put forward in
            courses of lectures and artistic contributions his concept of the soul."

            Bradford continues;

            Now I fully grasp that Thomas Aquinas was one of those who also received the
            Astral Body of Christ. Received the Astral Body of Christ (It stuns one to
            repeat it because I am not yet even close to grasping it.), which has sunk
            into me a bit now after all these years, but recently very clearly it sank
            in deeper. It grows inwardly for me now a little more, the experience of
            understanding how this unique Astral Body of the Christ would be a stunning
            gift? We look back in time and see Thomas as a Grail servant who actually
            was killed instead of Parsifal. Schionatulander was diplomatic emissary to
            Haroun al Raschid for all that was the wild Grail and Arthurian Celtic
            impulse. Oh and I cannot forget the whole gamut of history of this
            individual going back through the Greek period and his friendship with a
            certain character called Plato.

            Further still we find that the many-breasted Diana mystery, reveals her
            bountiful Lunar star breasts feeding all manner of species of beings from
            the mystery center at Ephesus. Well I need not go all the way back to Uruk
            but he is there as well. So here is the mystery. A most stirring, soul
            enriching experience and one that I have not heard many souls embrace as
            they bash Spiritual Science.

            The mystery is that the wide thinking and Astral meal of the Christ's astral
            body has been methodically served up for a Conciousness Soul meal for those
            who wish to slowly attain the Wedding Garments of the transformed Astral
            body and change it into Manas. This comes off the tongue or written page
            easy, but let the magnificent emotional content sink in.

            The details continue to unfold. We see on earth a massive building which
            represents the full Astral Body of the Christ Being. We walk through the
            mighty lectures delivered, each with their human harmony and human voice. We
            feel the pulse behind the massive lectures covering a thinking process that
            enters into the core of creation's deepest mysteries and carries the mighty
            7 and 9 fold pattern of the micrologos and unites it with the Macrologos.
            The opportunity to create a building that reflects that Astral Body, and
            bring into practical reality secrets of what that Astral Body could produce
            for mankind if we understood it, becomes Steiner's great pleasure. The
            Astral Body of Christ, Oh, Oh, Oh...

            When we see the structure of the John Gospel and Revelation we also see how
            the gigantic Astral body of the Christ was unfolded with the layout and
            chapters of his work, the inner rhythms of the events... nay the cosmic
            Alpha Omega biographical sketch, as seen in its cosmic extensions is built
            into John's works and continues profoundly all the way into the Chymical
            Wedding.

            But Steiner brings the Christ's Astral body in translated chunks,
            pieces, full meals, raising thinking to union, to marriage, to absorb into
            our Astral thinking field the potential to grasp the immense Astral Body of
            a God, an Elohim. We get to think and learn to swim in the wonder of such a
            strange profound gift with page after page of insight, connections, clarity,
            substance, science, ethics, wonder and above all Truth. An Astral body of
            the nature we are talking about is Know the Truth and the Truth shall set
            you free. I AM the way, the Truth and the Life (as a cosmic Being the
            Christ has a cosmic Logos Astral Body of immense dimensions and we all have
            pieces of
            that within us. It is to become our Wedding garment)

            How does it matter that Christ was in a solidified human form and contained
            within his walking revelation of human body, The Cosmos? That is the
            difference between understanding the solidification of Spiritual faculties
            and members into an operating system of Man, as opposed to the uncondensed
            wide spread Etheric Earth, Astral Cosmos and Physical Solar System
            uncalibrated and spread out in the vast vistas of soul/spirit/ and physical
            life. It walked and existed in a Man and as a Man, it can gift the various
            higher members- Manas, Buddhi and Atma to qualified individuals. Now the
            Church and the human mind must be confronted with not only the Body of
            Christ, but the Bodies of Christ and this is a vast mystery that makes the
            Church obsolete and unable to navigate any longer but rather burdened with
            its own load of obsolete traditions.

            Now if we change the definition of AS or Anthrosociety, and naturally there
            has been a great deal spoken about 'Mother and Daughter' aspects of the
            society but so many head games cloud the real issue. The real issue, and
            share with me this moment on the threshold if you can; Because indeed we can
            write it out fully at some point, but the stunning revelation that here we
            participate with the Feeding of the Five Thousand in the Fifth epoch and we
            become the Astral Daughters and prime ourselves to understand and change our
            Astral bodies and our thinking because Thomas Aquinas went in a different
            direction than St. Francis.

            In St. Francis we see the results of the full in take of the Astral Body of
            Christ into the most receptive devoted vehicle. We see It's ramifications
            all the way down through his toes and his physical form. He doesn't, as yet,
            as far as we know, explore and unfold the enormous wealth of the Astral body
            and put it in terms we can understand with our minds, as thought, as science
            as education. St. Francis becomes that Astral Body in his Higher members and
            it radiates right down into his stigmata. The Astral Body of Christ.

            Oh, if we understood this in our hearts... Oh so, so stunningly strange to
            be able to lift up this veil and say... I am learning and discovering the
            great Astral Body of Christ that can be learned on earth now and viewed with
            even more intensity, but only if you encountered it here, experienced it
            here, will it fully awaken on the other side of the threshold.

            But now, here, today, the Christ is not so far away. We turn and examine the
            way the profound thinking of the Sun Logos would unfold causes and effects
            and human karma, medicine, education, agriculture we see wisdom and benefits
            galore. Not merely was it a religious experience for someone with a
            personality like Aristotle, oh no! Aristotle's sober thinking walked into
            the emotional fortress of this new gift, the Astral Body of Christ, and
            considered deeply how to categorize and departmentalize the wonderful
            revelations this Astral Body could give to a thinking soul; what it could
            unveil and reveal within human history.

            Steiner worked out a destiny plan, a
            way to offer this Astral Body of Christ to the human community and place it
            firmly in culture as a fact. How intimate could, should such emotions and
            thinking be when unfolding the content of the Astral Body of Christ? Steiner
            continued to remain wonderfully human in everything he did and said.. After
            all who made the human and the best of the wonders of the human being we
            love anyways? What is this thing that allows us to Love that which is true
            and great in the deeds and wonders of humanity? If the eye were not sun like
            and if our astral bodies were not Christ like... Ask John in the beginning
            of his Gospel.

            The after experience from Easter still ripples on in me. I have a good
            working understanding of astral body, etheric body and ego so I can see the
            higher as well as the more intimate mechanics of the rich tableau presented
            from Spiritual Science. But even now it is still sifted between my heart and
            emotional grasp and the slow vast horizon of the intellectual schematics
            takes its wonderful sweet time to become living content in me. Schematics
            that passed through the human heart of Steiner and were placed into the
            human community by his vast intimate concern for humans in the middle of War
            and global monsters is almost as impressive as St. Francis.

            He offered a building with the full reflection of the great work of
            outlining the Astral Body of the Christ Being and placing a living image of
            it on the Earth. Who would let such a thing stand in it's beautiful organic
            wood and let it radiate and live as the full revelation of the Astral Body
            of Christ brought down into the physical world? Darkness would not allow it
            to live it had to be destroyed. Such a remarkable fact on earth would rock
            the universe off its hinges. Souls would hardly have a convincing chance to
            live out the misguided scientific fields and research that has brought us to
            such confusion today, so that we still cannot fathom What is Man?

            Something stunning that we are afraid to take hold of and see that would
            destroy the precious thing we now cannot recognize, was the reason why
            Steiner actually wept at the Burning of the First Goetheanum. Who, who would
            not have wept? Steiner wept only because when it was burned to the ground he
            knew that we of the future would not be able to see that it was the
            wonderful revelation on Earth of the Cosmic Astral /Manas Body of Christ.

            The Living Building was further backed up by the enormous research and
            treasures unfolded while Steiner walked through this new room in his house,
            the Astral Body of Christ, (Christ was in the House!). There radiating
            outward, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly the mining and translating of the
            vast cosmic treasure trove of the Astral Body of a God into current, warmed
            immortal reason, worked Steiner.

            But to returning to the beginning of this discussion: It is not merely
            Thomas Aquinas who received the Astral Body of Christ, so many others are
            growing and awakening, St. Francis, St. Elizabeth and many, many others. I
            don't know about Mother Teresa and I certainly don't think the Church is
            able to grasp in each instance the true nature of the Saint or just what
            gift has been attained by them. Why? Because the church has no basis for
            understanding the etheric body, astral body the I AM. It has thoughts, but
            these thoughts are just common lousy everyday thoughts that might apply to
            any number of good people.

            The Church cannot research specific incidents. It has nothing to say about
            the ability Zarathustra achieved before he became Jesus. The Church has
            nothing to say about Jesus-Zarathustra-Buddha. It is merely a tattered piece
            of self-sustaining political correctness, with lots of influence into the
            slumbering souls of men. In other words it is an obsolete system that
            teaches more lies than truth and it promotes and attracts predatorial
            molesters under the guise of religion. Because it is no longer religion,
            because religion is the Science of Man and loving the full revelation, of
            the Astral Body of Christ and the secrets of the Spirit of Man and how
            Christ enhanced Man. Certainly the ability of the Church to know any of this
            is beyond their means at present.

            Many unknowns are becoming highly illuminated through the various higher
            members that a God bore on Earth. There is the Physical and Phantom form to
            be attained; There is the Astral Body of Christ; The Etheric Body; The Atma,
            Buddhi and Manas bodies.. and we shall unfold all of them as we arise to
            become gods and now we look at Spiritual Science and we say.. For Christ�s
            sake! Thank you for giving a little piece of the bread of the Logos, for
            taking the time and appealing to my shabby little intellect that I too can
            touch the hem of the garment of the Risen Christ and be thankful.

            But I speak for myself, certainly my awkward indication here, just doesn't
            happen or awaken for you without the proper biographical preparations. It is
            just dawning, more fully on me now.



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          • Bradford Riley
            From: Lisa ... Lisa wrote; ... Bradford writes; Firstly, I apologize for dumping this insight on you. You and I are of the future. We
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 12, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              From: Lisa <lisastephzim@...>
              >Subject: [anthroposophy] Little question...from the girl sitting in the
              >back...trying to learn the songs..
              >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
              >
              Lisa wrote;

              >what I would like to know is, if what is known as the Holy Ghost , or Holy
              >Spirit is similar at all with what is mentioned as the astral bodi(ies) of
              >Christ?

              Bradford writes;

              Firstly, I apologize for dumping this insight on you. You and I are of the
              future. We had no opportunity to see the first Goetheanum and walk through
              it. I attended the Mausoleum of the concrete second Goetheanum and there is
              a mystery we need to focus on. The Mausoleum. A tomb where if you come to
              the tomb of the site of the Resurrection you might only see a tomb. Indeed
              because of the loss of the 1st Goetheanum people only see the tomb. But my
              destiny was not merely to see the outer concrete tomb and the stiff Germans
              and Swiss tooling around the grounds, there was a whole wave of young
              Americans who tromped around asking questions and raising hell, when I went
              there.

              Only later do I see that it certainly was no Mausoleum. As a student I was
              paid to monitor the great Statue of the Representative of Man that escaped
              the fire. So, we can come towards the Anthro Society and Spiritual Science
              or Max Heindel or Blavastsky and hundreds of other inspired souls, Ommram
              Michael Aisanov and encounter no tomb. Maybe a tomb of words and
              definitions. Yet we feel, with our sniffer, our dog scent discernment that
              something happened there, by this Mausoleum, which as a word, AH - UH
              AUM... SOL as in Solar and of course AH UH O E U MMM or plainer put Venus in
              Ah, Uh as in Saturn, O as in Jupiter.. E as in Mercury..the warmth of the
              the MOOO Cow hidden in the wonderful MMMMM that makes your mouth water when
              you smell good cooking in the kitchen kinda nature of something happened
              here.

              Now, to your first question, and I don't have a habit of looking at
              questions as if they have to be answered yet or now, because most of them
              can't be answered and remains part of the adventure, your personal Grail
              moments. I can say that the Whitsun or Pentecost experience of the tongues
              of flame brings us towards the sword in the stone of Arthur and the Round
              Table when the doors blew open and the doves came in with the Cup that
              caught the Blood of Christ and changed the Arthurian Celtic influence into
              the Grail impulse.

              The Astral body is the Nervous System forces of the Spine and Moses might
              say the Serpent, but the Sheath or unsheathing of the Astral body is the
              mystery of the sword and the stone in Arthurian legends. Galahad had an
              amazing sword, Lancelot, etc.. these swords are forces of symbol and real..
              The symbol is that they were types of advanced resonating astral
              developments of the different capacities of the individuals... Their swords
              had certain magical qualities to them. Most of the events in Arthurian lore
              and Grail lore are Pentecost or Whitsun Tongues of flame events and.... HOly
              Ghost Astral body experiences.

              Father can be examined in hundreds of different ways, but certainly Father
              Ground of the Physical Divine universe is implied. Christ and the Father
              ground of the structure of the Soul of Man.. In understanding the working of
              the Soul Structure of Man.. Physical, etheric, astral, ego,
              (sentient-intellectual-consciousness region of earth intelligence) Manas as
              the transformed experiences from 21 to 28 that appear in the later biography
              of the human being past age 42. Holy Ghost is really closer to the human
              thinking field and the Father God is out there with the Seraphim and
              Cherubim but the Holy Ghost is the new working of how certain human beings
              are now gaining Angelic, Archangelic and Archai consciousness to enter into
              the upward curve of evolution.

              Now I can stand to be corrected on any of the loose points I have just
              blabbered, by anybody. Steiner's Foundation Stone Mantram or Poem covers a
              lot of the basic ideas of these three terms. Ex Deo Nacimur, In Christo
              Morimur and Per Spiritum Sanctum Rescivisimus. And I know there are plenty
              of rich thinkers who can elaborate those terms better than I.

              Lisa wrote;

              it sounds like no....but....then again....couldn't our spiritual selves be
              similar to our brains in that we(most) may only have use of a small
              portion....and that if we could take off the tarnish accumulation, rust and
              lime deposits and really tune in...that we just may be open to some
              unbelievable possibilities?...and that maybe these individuals who have had
              such amazing experiences just may have carefully cleaned off and polished
              this gem inside of themselves?Kind of a gift that is generously given in
              love...but that only a few will ever manage to find and grasp and utilize to
              such a full potential...

              Bradford writes;

              Never way off. Certainly Polishing the Higher faculties and using them to
              look through our daily lives and getting a handle on them is superior than
              walking around with a goofy faith filled sappy attitude that says, this will
              all be explained to me after I'm dead. In heaven! It will not.. You will be
              just another dull tour group through Kamaloca who cannot find their way.
              Things of the magnitude of the Astral body of Christ, given in terms of
              human thinking as Earthly intelligence enhances your living experiences but
              also enriches and illuminates our after death experiences so that we do not
              retain a darkened consciousness.

              But I am only one sided here. Because there is also the Etheric Body of
              Christ. I carry a different poetic, intuition into the Holy Ghost, Grail or
              Manas stream as an Artist but the goodness and hard working of the so called
              "Martha" etheric forces.. (Martha was Wednesdays child in the Bock
              understanding of the Holy Week) The etheric body of Christ is an entire
              study in the doer mentality, the worker, not the thinker... but they cross
              and interface in the human soul. It is best to have rich appreciation for
              all of it, but certain special dispensations and leanings in ones
              incarnations, tend not for the heady, or intellectual, but the craft and the
              nutrition, the gardening, the goodness, the calm, the easy going, the warm
              and steady and not the passionate wrestler with emotional fields. The
              tendencies thus described bring one more toward the Etheric body of Christ..
              of which there are interesting tales to tell.

              And the rest for me is:

              >The after experience from Easter still ripples on in me. I have a good
              >working understanding of astral body, etheric body and ego so I can see the
              >higher as well as the more intimate mechanics of the rich tableau presented
              >from Spiritual Science. But even now it is still sifted between my heart
              >and
              >emotional grasp and the slow vast horizon of the intellectual schematics
              >takes its wonderful sweet time to become living content in me.

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            • Bradford Riley
              From: elaineupton2001 ... Sweet Elaine, please excuse me, I was out of state for a wedding and had a little work pile up.. but in a
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 15, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                From: "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@...>
                >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
                >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:05:46 -0000

                Sweet Elaine, please excuse me, I was out of state for a wedding and had a
                little work pile up.. but in a minute or two I'm going to respond to your
                wonderful attentivie and clear post.

                Bradford

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              • Bradford Riley
                From: elaineupton2001 ... Dear Elaine raised great issues; You mention St. FRancis and the stigmate, in reference to his ...
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 21, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  From: "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@...>
                  >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
                  >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:05:46 -0000

                  Dear Elaine raised great issues;

                  You mention St. FRancis and the stigmate, in reference to his
                  >attainment of the astral body of Christ. But St. Elizabeth? I know
                  >virtually nothing of her. What was her Christ experience?--And
                  >Wartburg Castle? What is it you are busy with here, if you don't mind
                  >saying?

                  Bradford writes;

                  Positive and negative currents of charge in sexual relations magnetize
                  astral contacts. Sex is a magnetic force and sometimes not karmically as
                  clear as Heathcliff and Cathy. Yes you are lucky to understand Healthcliff
                  and Cathy in "Wuthering Heights" others who wander around here fail to take
                  heed when looking into the question of how the realm of soul mates might
                  arise.

                  Soul mates might be indicated by how Lazarus and John the Baptist were
                  joined it always reminded me of Cain and Abel. Cain the enormous initiate
                  reminded me of Rosenkreuz stream. Abel reminded me of Baptist a bit. But
                  Zarathustra and Buddha, what strange bedfellows they made together. There
                  are many examples of strange knots.. One other of course is Aristotle and
                  Alexander the Great, a cause for the disruption of the Anthro society.

                  I was joined with a woman with a strong etheric body and influence while I
                  had a strong astral art influence. Our two destinies brought forth children
                  and further the two streams encountered Spiritual Science and the Etheric
                  has become enormously enhanced in this woman which has led to something of
                  an amazing event. However it was the karma of Mother and Son that found
                  itself again as Man and Wife.. Here Oedipus and Judas needed to be
                  considered. We stand dumbly thinking that our wives and lovers and sons and
                  daughters are merely that. They are much more and the mystery is much deeper
                  in every case. Can we look at our Karma? Not yet and not in hardly any of
                  us is there a maturity to look riddles in the face. The twin combinations of
                  astral and etheric natures made an interesting combination and Spiritual
                  Science straightened out the Karmic streams for both of us.

                  Now the astral intercourse I have been interested in is the way science is
                  screwing around with Animal group souls, Plant group souls.. it is a form of
                  unconscious intercourse. We would better describe such combination of
                  arbitrary bar hopping from species to species and given the economic
                  whoredom here on earth, we see how these couples meet and give birth to
                  offspring. We should really look at the roots of this type of Egyptian
                  thinking which goes back to the sinking of Atlantis.

                  Egyptian Karma is really Americas shadow karma. So in that period of history
                  the Animal I AM of Hawk, Crocodile, Stork, Cat, were out in the astral
                  region and were pre-perceptions of the higher I AM field. In these astral
                  regions Initiation recognized that the single entity was connected to the I
                  AM of the giant animal specie group soul. So, here we see that our current
                  science has unconsciously begun lifting the veil of intercourse and while
                  they appear sterilized and sanitized, they are really just going
                  unconsciously to various bars in the astral world and because of economic
                  mandates, getting drunk on false ideas and screwing with anything that
                  nature has to offer.

                  This is the new Veil, the Isis Veil that non dare lift!

                  We really should begin to think in this way to clear up the real meanings
                  behind Cloning and general scouring the astral world of fallen and displaced
                  beings who might offer any kind of false dressed up whore from the animal
                  world... and even further, we betray and sin against the astral world. This
                  sinning against the astral world of the animal species plays into a Sin
                  against the Holy Ghost.

                  We really need to think clearly as to what we are doing here in our little
                  cell injections and needles into the genetic structures of things, we are
                  unconsciously screwing with higher regions of beings who have yet to have a
                  vote. It is like child abuse and species abuse. Not knowing what you might
                  grow up into and not understanding the connection to companion plants and
                  how the insect world is the fragmented connected field of the astral body of
                  plants, we make any old whore mongering decision and we wonder how the
                  market place of the Whore of Babylon might crop up.

                  It will crop up because we are not thinking about the children we abuse and
                  set loose into the world. Things that a quasi moral scientist might be
                  appalled by in the church is exactly the cheap thrills beings used today by
                  Science the new church. Priest rapes destroy young boys.. What would that
                  boy become if not infected by the astral poison of the Priest? Who says
                  that the scientist does not hold the same position to various interfaced
                  worlds of innocent beings that are yet not fully mature yet? They do not
                  carry an I AM in the current world and cannot say, Please wait until you
                  know what I truly want to be. Why, why don't we think that way and think
                  deeper? Why is our morality so shallow that we do not apply Emancipation and
                  slavery to the very unknown realities that Science is now ploying and toying
                  with?

                  Scientists are the new Priests. Yet they are not better than the Priests of
                  the Catholic church who abuse another child. They are as much cosmic
                  pedophiles as the Priests are. Now we are faced with forrays into intimate
                  developmental phases of higher species unfoldment into their own future
                  human evolution. The animals are first on the list, the plants next and the
                  stones in the wings. They all have high hopes that we do not repeat all our
                  Luciferic Fall and the Fall phase of Humanity by acting Luciferically within
                  their species.

                  We precipate cosmic karma and repeat the Fall of Species as we were involved
                  with a Luciferic impregnation into our own Astral bodies. You see, now we
                  come to it. There the Scientist who is merely a drunken sailor looking for
                  some small change aboard a corporate pirate vessel, stops in every port and
                  has sex with every unknown and innocent species out there. The poor kingdoms
                  below man are wondering, why do we have to repeat the Fall of Man because
                  Scientists are whores?

                  I would welcome souls who got up the courage to think deeply on this issue
                  so that we can really begin to call the acts of Science and Species
                  manipulations just what they are. If they have not morally observed the
                  connections between insects and plants and observed occultly the Animal
                  future field, they are merely in a drunken binge going from bar to bar or
                  salary to salary working for the highest bidders who will pay them, with
                  sterile eyes, and sterile hands to have sex with innocent unborn children...

                  How do you extend moral vision to souls caught in mere sixth grade
                  intelligence and wanting to rule the universe without asking the occult and
                  astral questions? That is Sex and the City of Babylon alright.

                  Regarding Elizabeth, on file, here on this site, is the essay with Elizabeth
                  and Wartburg Castle. Star Mysteries and the Word. Elaine thank you for
                  asking questions of shattering import. We need a whole lot more of us to
                  stand up and put these rough indications in more concrete form.

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                • Bradford Riley
                  From: Bradford Riley ... Bradford has to pick up on a trail of thought here. The New Isis Veil What is being researched here is the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 22, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    From: "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@...>
                    >Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
                    >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:48:39 +0000
                    >>This is the new Veil, the Isis Veil that non dare lift!

                    Bradford has to pick up on a trail of thought here. The New Isis Veil

                    What is being researched here is the DESIRE of man. To Desire Space,
                    Cloning, Making better widgets.. It is DESIRE that certainly should not be
                    outlawed. It cannot be outlawed, but the fact is that our desire to "seek
                    out brave new worlds" to constantly strive is part of the Luciferic wonder
                    of the Human Freedom to question. Great! Now we come to the occult question
                    of infecting neighboring worlds, Stone; Plant; Animal and Human conditions
                    with a repeat of our own Luciferic infection of our Desire or Astral Body.

                    By being as Natural as we are and doing the things we do, we need pay not
                    attention to Milton. But see, as we shift from Religion to Science we are
                    not in Kansas anymore. We have the potential of infecting with Human
                    luciferic forces the unfolding of the future Species of Group Beings in the
                    Animal, Plant and mineral worlds. If we were thinking properly we wouldn't
                    want to infect the neighboring worlds with the chaos we also inherited. For
                    instance.

                    Steiner:

                    http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19120505p01.html;mark=327,59,63#WN_mark

                    "The Mystery of Golgotha was concerned with the descending path which men
                    have taken and with what must lead them upwards again � with the Luciferic
                    influence upon mankind! Lucifer, together with everything belonging to him,
                    is verily not a human being. Lucifer and his hosts are superhuman beings.
                    Nor did Lucifer desire that through his deeds men should be set upon a
                    downward path; his purpose was to rebel against the upper gods. He wanted to
                    vanquish his opponents, not to set men upon a downward path. The progressive
                    gods, the upper gods, and Lucifer with his hosts of the lower gods of
                    hindrance, waged war against each other, and from the very beginning of
                    earthly evolution, man was dragged into this warfare among gods. It was an
                    issue that the gods in the higher worlds had to settle among themselves, but
                    as a result of the conflict, men were drawn more deeply into the material
                    world than was originally intended. And now the gods had to create the
                    balance; humanity had to be lifted upwards again, the deed of Lucifer made
                    of no avail. And this could not be achieved through a man but only through a
                    Divine Deed, the deed of a god. This deed of a god must be understood in all
                    its truth and reality. "

                    Bradford Writes;

                    The portrait of Mankind already carries an infected Luciferic Astral body.
                    Our learning on Earth and understanding as Scientists must also call upon us
                    not to abuse the unborn kingdoms and infect them with our own inherited
                    errors which have been changed by the Christ Event. The real Christ Event
                    requires a new form of thinking and so far we labor with nothing but clunky
                    Model T morality and unexamined thinking into the issues of Science and the
                    neighboring Kingdoms we intend to broach. Now we can act in a Luciferic,
                    Ahrimanic or Christed manner towards the unborn destiny of the realm of
                    Man-Animals-Plants-Stones.

                    I will attempt to work this out with more detail a little later. I have some
                    other pressing issues I must attend to. Anybody else care to carry the ball
                    and direction here? Thanks!

                    Previously;

                    >We really should begin to think in this way to clear up the real meanings
                    >behind Cloning and general scouring the astral world of fallen and
                    >displaced
                    >beings who might offer any kind of false dressed up whore from the animal
                    >world... and even further, we betray and sin against the astral world. This
                    >sinning against the astral world of the animal species plays into a Sin
                    >against the Holy Ghost.
                    >
                    Now we are faced with forrays into intimate
                    >developmental phases of higher species unfoldment into their own future
                    >human evolution. The animals are first on the list, the plants next and the
                    >stones in the wings. They all have high hopes that we do not repeat all our
                    >Luciferic Fall and the Fall phase of Humanity by acting Luciferically
                    >within
                    >their species.
                    >
                    >We precipate cosmic karma and repeat the Fall of Species as we were
                    >involved
                    >with a Luciferic impregnation into our own Astral bodies. The poor
                    >kingdoms
                    >below man are wondering, why do we have to repeat the Fall of Man because
                    >Scientists are whores?
                    >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
                  • elaineupton2001
                    Thank you again, Bradford, for a rich and generous post, and for calling us to thoughtful courageousness in these urgent matters of bio-technology/engineering,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 22, 2002
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                      Thank you again, Bradford, for a rich and generous post, and for
                      calling us to thoughtful courageousness in these urgent matters of
                      bio-technology/engineering, as they are euphemistically called in the
                      media. Indeed, as you say, these are acts where scientists are
                      engaged in abuse of children, the future children (plant, animal,
                      human species), an abuse as egregious as that of any abusing Catholic
                      Priest. Interesting how the mainstream news calls our attention over
                      and over to the scandals in the Catholic Church, while the scandals
                      of science, and our complicity when we are silent, hardly receive a
                      byline.

                      Thanks for pointing again to St. Elizabeth and Wartburg Castle. I'll
                      look this up.

                      Also, thanks for the illustration of your own marriage and union of
                      the etheric and astral forces.

                      More later. Meantime, courage and blessing!
                      elaine
                    • joksu57
                      ... mind ... magnetize ... karmically as ... Healthcliff ... to take ... might ... were ... initiate ... Joksu writes: This Bradford s text reminds me of a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 23, 2002
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                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                        > From: "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@h...>
                        > >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
                        > >Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:05:46 -0000
                        >
                        > Dear Elaine raised great issues;
                        >
                        > You mention St. FRancis and the stigmate, in reference to his
                        > >attainment of the astral body of Christ. But St. Elizabeth? I know
                        > >virtually nothing of her. What was her Christ experience?--And
                        > >Wartburg Castle? What is it you are busy with here, if you don't
                        mind
                        > >saying?
                        >
                        > Bradford writes;
                        >
                        > Positive and negative currents of charge in sexual relations
                        magnetize
                        > astral contacts. Sex is a magnetic force and sometimes not
                        karmically as
                        > clear as Heathcliff and Cathy. Yes you are lucky to understand
                        Healthcliff
                        > and Cathy in "Wuthering Heights" others who wander around here fail
                        to take
                        > heed when looking into the question of how the realm of soul mates
                        might
                        > arise.
                        >
                        > Soul mates might be indicated by how Lazarus and John the Baptist
                        were
                        > joined it always reminded me of Cain and Abel. Cain the enormous
                        initiate
                        > reminded me of Rosenkreuz stream. Abel reminded me of Baptist a bit.


                        Joksu writes:

                        This Bradford's text reminds me of a lecture named "Cain", held by an
                        eminent occultist in the year 1931. I want to share some insights,
                        which have stemmed mainly from this lecture.
                        Cain was originally a farmer and we can connect (agri)culture to
                        him. Abel was a shephard and when Cain slayed Abel, this can be
                        interpreted so that Cain slayed in himself the "trait of tending the
                        animal passions". But in some other sense, it was also a question of
                        a Fall, which had karmic consiquencies. I will consider this aspect
                        later on. It was also from the beginning the question about
                        brotherhood (Am I my brothers' keeper?).


                        There's a beautiful old legend about King Solomon. (This is a short
                        version based on my memory.) Solomon had to build a temple for the
                        glory of God. But every time when the work proceeded there came an
                        earthqueke that destroyed the building (He made three attemps in
                        different sites). The King become desperate, but then he heard a
                        voice which explained, that those places were not worthy enough for
                        the temple.

                        Solomon went for a walk and in a sad mood sat down near a field
                        under a tree. The wise king could understand e.g. all animals and a
                        bird in the tree spoke to Salomon: "Your search is over, here is the
                        place where you can build your temple". The wise king wondered why
                        this cornfield was holier than the earlier places, which were part
                        of "pure nature". The bird told more:

                        The field was owned by two brothers; the other was married and had
                        a family, the other was single. The "family man" waked up in the
                        night and said to his wife: this has been a good year to us.; God
                        have been merciful to us. But my brother lives all alone. I'll go and
                        transfer some sheafs to his side of the field. The other brother had
                        also waked up and thought: I don't need much, but my brother has a
                        wife and children. I'll go and put some sheafs from my side to his
                        side. He doesn't have to know about it. Along the next day they both
                        wondered, why was there equal amount of cornsheafs in both sides of
                        the field. They both repeated the process during the next night
                        takin a greater amount of sheafs with them. And in the coming day
                        they were more astonished.

                        But wait here, said the bird to Solomon, in this night they will come
                        third time, because their love is invincible. And the King sat down
                        and waited. The night came and when it started dawning a man came to
                        the field, and the bird said: it is the older brother. And that man
                        took from his side a large amount of sheafs. Then Solomon regocnized
                        that there was a man also in the younger man's field, who took "full
                        load" of sheafs. When the brothers came near each other, they were
                        frightened in the beginning to see a man carrying sheafs. But then
                        they recognized each other, dropped the sheafs and run to embrace
                        each other: "My brother, my brother!". King Solomon stepped in all
                        his glory in front of the brothers and said: O you worthy men, sell
                        me this field, I want to pay you a tenfold price. So King Solomo got
                        the soil, where he could finally build his temple, which would
                        endure. In this legend we can see an ideal relationship between
                        a "Cain-type" and an "Abel-type".

                        In Abel and Cain we can really see two different types: Abel is more
                        of the "feeling-type", conservative, supporter of the status quo.
                        This type easily "believes" in religios dogmas, they love churches
                        and priests, who takes care of their relationship to God. This
                        temperament is also humble and can give birth to beautiful characters
                        and saints.

                        Cain is more impulsive, "thinking-type", always seeking new
                        approaches. This temperament wants to study, understand and "risk
                        all" to reach the thruth. They don't need priests, they want to
                        understand and know. But when we think the spiritual side of things,
                        then it can be said, that Cain is occultist and Abel is a magician
                        (this aspect is also linked to seremonies).

                        A secret traditoin tells: Cain was a human being, who later
                        incarnated as Hiram Abif. King Solomon was an Abel-character, in all
                        his wisdom serving and humble; he was a magician. But Cain, who
                        was "greater in skills", was born as Hiram Abif, and without him King
                        Solomon could not build his temple. Solomon had to be allied with
                        Hiram Abif, Abel with Cain. And Hiram Abif incarnated later as
                        Lazarus, whom Jesus Christ "raised from the dead" and who was also
                        apostle John (here we can also remember what Bradford have written
                        about John the Babtist.) And St.John incarnated later as Christian
                        Rosenkreutz, that great Master, who is immensly near Jesus Christ and
                        is behind all occult and mystical organisations in the "west". He is
                        a wonderful example to us all, how to rise from a fall to great
                        hights.

                        Rosenkreutz is also linked to St.Germain. I definetly see them as
                        separate individuals. Dr. Steiner says in his lecture at Neuchatel
                        27.9.1919, that St.Germain was the exoteric incarnation of Christian
                        Rosenkreutz. St.Germain (an Abel-type magician) has earned
                        his "citizenship" in "the White Brotherhood of Christ" after
                        Christian Rosenkreutz and in some sense He is the Gate to this
                        Brotherhood and in this sense I see Him as "the exoteric incarnation
                        of C.R.". (If I had to speculate about his (St.G.) earlier
                        incarnations, I could vote for e.g. Franciscus of Assisi. – Yes I
                        know, usually more occult methods are used in these matters, but I
                        can always blame the effects of this "democratic age"!)

                        Now Dr. Steiner is directly linked to this Rosenkreutz stream and he
                        is really a clear Cain-type. We can think about all the cultural
                        impulses (education, even (biodynamic) acgriculture etc.) in
                        anthroposophy. But the question about brotherhood and tolerating
                        different "types" is also vital, when one is building a Mystery-
                        Temple. In the original T.S. there was a strong rosicrucian impulse
                        and brotherhood was an essential theme. But this brotherhood should
                        have been "active practice", as in the old legend, not something to
                        preach about.

                        Then there is still the karmic aspect. When Cain had killed Abel,
                        Cain said to God that now anyone can kill him. Cain is told that if
                        he is killed, there will be sevenfold revenge. I link this event to a
                        certain "karmic start", where the karma is wielded by the planetary
                        spirit. And now it is clearly the karma and "dharma" (spiritual duty)
                        of this Rosenkreutz stream to see, that this karma is "redeemed"
                        and "transferred to the hand of Christ". It has a lot to do with the
                        new Mystery School, which Dr. Steiner worked for (but he could only
                        open the first from the three "degrees"). It has also tight links to
                        the "second coming of Christ" and the karmic changes attached to it.

                        I am sorry if this writing seems a bit "confused", I can't write
                        clearer text now about this very deep subject.

                        Still one bit of information: Eliphas Levi writes in
                        his "Trancendental Magic" that the Prodigal Son in the Bible is a
                        decription about Cain. Hmm, why not?

                        Warm Regards
                        Jouko
                      • Bradford Riley
                        From: joksu57 ... Magnificent work on the Cain Abel question Joksu.. Here I continue more with the Cain Stream of Science.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 24, 2002
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                          From: "joksu57" <jouko.sorvali@...>
                          >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Manas and the Astral Body of Christ
                          >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:52:20 -0000

                          Magnificent work on the Cain Abel question Joksu.. Here I continue more with
                          the Cain Stream of Science.

                          Steiner on Manas;

                          ****** �. Man has evolved from a state of existence when he had only
                          physical body, etheric body and astral body, and he evolves further through
                          transforming his astral body into Manas (Spirit-Self).

                          Bradford writes;

                          In these last few posts on Manas I have brought a position of the Second
                          Fall infecting kingdoms below Man through the activity of Man. I placed
                          Science in an unconscious position of infecting the Animal Group Soul
                          Integrity; Plant Group Identity and already implanting forces in the Mineral
                          Silicon realm that begin shaping and distorting their developments. Science
                          at this phase of human evolution has taken over what was formerly a
                          Religious domain. Presently the activity of Scientists in genetic
                          manipulations, egg, embryo and cellular impregnations and transplantations
                          are bringing arbitrary astral
                          accelerations and intercourse into the innocence of the lower kingdoms below
                          our Ego or their Ego development. I indicated that Luciferic elements of the
                          Fall of Man could be infecting the unfolding of the lower Kingdoms of
                          mineral, plant and Animal realms. I felt that we might be allowing,
                          unobserved, Science to spread the illness of our own Fall into the
                          neighboring Kingdoms that share our human realm.

                          In Steiner�s �The Concepts of Original Sin and Grace� I find some support
                          for my view.

                          http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/Concpt_index.html;mark=246,52,58#WN_mark

                          Steiner-

                          ********* �But already then he was involved in the process of the evolution
                          of the ego; he lived within this evolutionary process, waiting, as it were,
                          for the later bestowal of his ego. Rightly understood, this enables us to
                          conceive that certain things must have happened to man and to the whole
                          process of his development before he actually received his ego. These
                          happenings belong to an epoch preceding that of the development of the ego.
                          This is of great significance, for if man had passed through a phase of
                          evolution before receiving his ego, what happened during that phase cannot
                          be attributed to him in the same sense as what has happened since the
                          bestowal of the ego is to be attributed to him. �

                          Bradford writes;

                          The lower kingdoms of mineral, plant, and animal have not achieved the Ego
                          evolution yet. Therefore things cannot be faulted, except for the general
                          infection of the Luciferic Fall which infected our human Astral Group Nature
                          prior to the development and achieving our individual Ego�s. Some may wonder
                          what this is all about. The Mineral has only achieved physical manifestation
                          and no etheric or astral body has yet fully appeared for them. However just
                          as there are species of Plants, Monocots, Dicots and the like, Minerals have
                          geometric families, their various group soul fields at present only
                          indicated by Platonic Solids and crystalline structures in their forms.

                          The Plants already have physical and etheric bodies but their blossom is the
                          close proximity of the Astral, feeling life and the Insect community would
                          be the nerve sense and spinal system that, when attached to the plant, would
                          bestow on the species in that community the first phases of animal
                          development. How should men Initiate the Plant Community into its higher
                          development?

                          The Animals vehicles have physical bony system, etheric life system and
                          Astral feeling intelligence still linked to the Group Soul of the breed.
                          House pets and House plants and garden plants associated with human activity
                          and human consumption have been adopted and come under the influence taming,
                          splicing, grafting and breeding, which required a kind of mingling and
                          intercourse that crossed species boundaries.

                          In the warehouse of all of nature�s substance are cross breeding, and
                          genetic families and species that can give untold benefit to humanity.
                          However the deeds that we do by this manipulation, ethically or arbitrarily
                          will have influence, IMO on affecting the etheric, astral and future Ego
                          development of these innocent Kingdoms, in the same manner as Luciferic
                          Beings affected and infected our own Human development and created for us a
                          route in evolution Marked by the Fall.

                          Steiner continues;

                          ********* �There are beings who obviously have no ego in the human sense,
                          namely, the animals. They consist of physical body, etheric body and astral
                          body only. Everyone who thinks rationally recognizes something about the
                          animals. Whatever fury may be exhibited by a lion, for example, we shall not
                          say of a lion as we might say of a human being: he can be evil, he can sin,
                          he can commit immoral deeds. We shall never speak of immorality in
                          connection with the actions of an animal. This in itself is significant
                          because even if we give no thought to it, we are thereby recognizing that
                          the difference between man and animal consists in the fact that the animal
                          has physical body, etheric body and astral body only, whereas man has the
                          ego in addition. Man passed through a phase of evolution when the astral
                          body was the highest member of his being. Did something happen to him during
                          that stage which must be regarded in a different light from that in which
                          the actions of animals are to be regarded? Yes indeed! For it must be
                          clearly understood that although man was once a being consisting of physical
                          body, etheric body and astral body, his nature was never the same as that of
                          the animals as we know them today. Man was never an animal, but in other
                          epochs he passed through a stage of evolution when he had these three bodies
                          only � epochs when there were as yet no animals in their present form and
                          when the conditions of existence on the earth were quite different.

                          What was it that actually happened to man at that time? As he had not
                          received his ego, we cannot attribute to him what we now do in
                          distinguishing him from the animals. What arose through him cannot be judged
                          as it is to be judged today, when he has an ego. In the last stage of
                          transition, when man was on the point of receiving his ego, there came the
                          Luciferic influence. In that epoch of his evolution man was not the being he
                          is today, but neither is he to be identified with the animals. Lucifer
                          approached him. At that time man could not � acting as it were with full
                          moral responsibility � choose whether he would or would not follow Lucifer;
                          nevertheless he could be drawn into Lucifer's toils in a way other than that
                          which applies to the animals today. This temptation by Lucifer occurred at
                          the time when man was actually at the point of receiving his ego. This
                          temptation was a deed to which man yielded before the period of
                          ego-development but which has cast its shadows into the whole of this
                          development. �

                          Bradford writes;

                          IMO we find the trend of actions that the biological Sciences focuses on now
                          as beginning to venture into, a repeat, of the kind of Luciferic activity
                          that brought the chain of events that had called forth the Luciferic Fall
                          that Milton describes. Meaning that the Astral body received premature
                          influences that have brought us to the point of Freedom but they also
                          required that the Christ come into Earthly Evolution and entered into our
                          human historical situation, enter the realm of Religion and Science and
                          request that humanity do right by the lower kingdoms.. Instead of and eye
                          for an eye, rather do unto others as you would have done unto you� and this
                          above all, �That which you do to the least of these you do to me!�

                          Which creates, IMO, a new scientific mandate since we appear to be already
                          entering into intercourse with realms innocent and below us that are
                          unconscious and bear in their arbitrary interfacing and mere corporate moral
                          assessments, both Luciferic and consequentially Ahrimanic results for the
                          unfolding innocent kingdoms below Humanity. I compare the Science standpoint
                          today with the Priestly crisis of the Pedophile. In that the abuse of those
                          which appear to be least, and most helpless and easily manipulated should be
                          given higher ethical protection and priority by humanity, society and
                          education.

                          In Nicanor Perlas Bio-Technology & Anthroposophy, Nicanor researched along
                          these lines.

                          �Contemporary civilization is in a desperate struggle with the imperatives
                          of technology. There are cries for a reintegration of religion with science
                          to help stem the tide of technological imperialism. There are pleas for a
                          more �empathetic knowledge,� a knowledge of participation rather than of
                          instrumental control. There are serious calls for a � predictive ecology� to
                          provide future knowledge of the impacts of technologies in the environment
                          in advance of their execution. There are even articulations of a � deep
                          ecology� perspective that hopes to radically arrest man�s domination over
                          nature. In addition, efforts have been undertaken to regulate, and even
                          stop, some of the more menacing features of humanities drive to create a
                          bio-engineered Garden of Eden.�

                          Bradford writes;

                          We are in a new chapter of the unfolding of human responsibility and destiny
                          from the Garden of Eden. It is past the mid-point of Earth evolution.
                          Humanity has received the Ego. The Gods themselves have entered to lift
                          mankind from a downward spiral. In the course of evolution from Saturn to
                          Vulcan, humanity is past the mid-point of Earth evolution and headed for the
                          Jupiter evolution.

                          In this symphonic sweep The Michael School and the gigantic gifts of how to
                          understand the Cosmic Christ Event has rocked the world of mankind.. We know
                          this because the counter forces have been given enormous latitude because
                          enormous amounts of wisdom have poured into humanities lap. These recent
                          historical events call forth a response. Not only the response of Christ and
                          Zarathustra having given copies of Astral Bodies and Etheric Bodies to
                          humans on their evolutionary track: but now intense mass Luciferic thinking
                          in our science communities in regards to cloning and copies of human beings,
                          animals and plants. Reincarnation and the reality of that which comes into
                          fill a human Form is deliberately being side tracked by the forces of
                          thinking in the scientific and religious community that have refused to
                          grasp what both Nietzsche and Hitler added to off set the balance of in
                          streaming wisdom focused through the work of Steiner and others.

                          Laws of Science in the Atom have become new gateways for Beings of Miltonian
                          and Tolkienian status.. Matter with specific laws now sound like codes to a
                          riddle that humanity has not caught up with. Humanity has not held deep
                          moral considerations with the shattering import and timing that recent
                          events in twentieth century history were delivered to us with. This is no
                          game. However the tendencies and who holds the power of laws that manipulate
                          man and Nature is beginning to sound like this.

                          http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/tolkien.htm

                          "Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
                          --Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
                          Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
                          --One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                          In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lie.
                          --One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
                          --One Ring to bring the all in the darkness bind them
                          In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lie."
                          (from The Lord of the Rings)

                          ��- the epic The Lord of the Rings has a depth that fascinate adult readers.
                          The title of the book refers to Sauron, the embodiment of evil in
                          Middle-Earth. Sauron created the Rings of Power, and the One Ring, which
                          rules the other rings and thus makes him the Lord of the Rings. Actually the
                          story depicts different reactions of its characters, from men to hobbits,
                          elves and other beings, to evil forces. This is why the work is not an
                          fantasy version of WW II, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but more
                          related to Milton's Paradise Lost. Sauron manifests himself in the form of a
                          lidless Eye, which sees nearly everything.

                          "'The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic
                          work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is
                          why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to
                          anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For
                          the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism." (from a
                          letter in 1953 to Robert Murray, a Jesuit priest, in The Letters of J.R.R.
                          Tolkien, 1981)

                          Milton observes the moment of Astral body error in his epic.

                          "So spake the fervent Angel; but his zeal
                          None seconded, as out of season judged
                          Or 30 singular and rash. Whereat rejoiced
                          The Apostate 31, and, more haughty, thus replied:&emdash;

                          "'That we were formed, then, say'st thou? and the work
                          Of secondary hands, by task transferred
                          From Father to his Son? Strange point and new!
                          Doctrine which we would know whence learned! Who saw
                          When this creation was? Rememberst thou
                          Thy making, while the Maker gave thee being?
                          We know no time when we were not as now;
                          Know none before us, self-begot, self-raised
                          By our own quickening power when fatal course
                          Had circled his full orb, the birth mature
                          Of this our native Heaven, Ethereal Sons. 32
                          Our puissance is our own; our own right hand
                          Shall teach us highest deeds, by proof to try
                          Who is our equal. Then thou shalt behold
                          Whether by supplication we intend
                          Address, and to begirt the Almighty Throne
                          Beseeching or besieging. This report,
                          These tidings, carry to the Anointed King
                          And fly, ere evil intercept thy flight.'
                          "He said- and, as the sound of waters deep
                          Hoarse murmur echoed to his words applause
                          Through the infinite host. Nor less for that
                          The flaming Seraph, fearless, though alone,
                          Encompassed round with foes, thus answered bold.&emdash;

                          "'O alienate from God, O Spirit accursed
                          Forsaken of all good! I see thy fall
                          Determined and thy hapless crew involved
                          In this perfidious fraud, contagion spread
                          Both of thy crime and punishment. Henceforth
                          No more be troubled how to quit the yoke
                          Of God's Messiah. Those indulgent laws
                          Will not be now vouchsafed- other decrees
                          Against thee are gone forth without recall;
                          That golden sceptre which thou didst reject
                          Is now an iron rod to bruise and break
                          Thy disobedience. Well thou didst advise;
                          Yet not for thy advice or threats I fly
                          These wicked tents devoted, lest the wrath
                          Impendent, raging into sudden flame
                          Distinguish not: for soon expect to feel
                          His thunder on thy head, devouring fire.
                          Then who created thee lamenting learn
                          When who can uncreate thee thou shalt know.'

                          "So spake the Seraph Abdiel, faithful found
                          Among the faithless, faithful only he;
                          Among innumerable false unmoved,
                          Unshaken, unseduced, unterrified,
                          His loyalty he kept, his love, his zeal;
                          Nor number nor example with him wrought
                          To swerve from truth, or change his constant mind,
                          Though single. From amidst them forth he passed,
                          Long way through hostile scorn, which he sustained
                          Superior, nor of violence feared aught
                          And with retorted scorn his back he turned
                          On those proud towers, to swift destruction doomed"

                          The Poetical Works of John Milton (New York: Macmillan, 1917) by pages
                          136-143; footnotes by Richard Hooker

                          Steiner continues;

                          Who then, in the real sense, was the sinner? Not man as an ego-endowed
                          being. Through Lucifer, man became a sinner with one part of his being � the
                          part with which, properly speaking, he can no longer be a sinner today, for
                          now he has his ego. At that time, therefore, he sinned with his astral body.
                          That is the radical difference between the sin we now incur as men and the
                          sin which at that time crept into our human nature. When man succumbed to
                          the temptation of Lucifer, he succumbed with his astral body. This,
                          therefore, is a deed which belongs to the period prior to that of
                          ego-development and is entirely different in character from any deed of
                          which man has been capable since his ego entered into him � even in its very
                          earliest rudiments. It was therefore a deed of man which preceded the entry
                          of the ego, but it cast its shadows into all subsequent ages of time. Man's
                          nature was such that before receiving his ego, he was able to perform the
                          �deed� of lending himself to the Luciferic temptation but through all later
                          time he has been under the influence resulting from this deed. In what sense
                          under its influence? The consequence of the astral body having incurred
                          guilt before man became an ego-endowed being has been that in each
                          successive incarnation he sank more deeply into the physical world. The
                          impetus for this descent was this action, this deed, which was enacted then
                          in the astral body. Man found himself on a steep downward gradient, and with
                          his ego he now lends himself to forces in his nature deriving from the stage
                          of his evolution preceding that of the development of his ego.

                          Bradford writes;

                          In Egypt various astral entities behind the Astral World where the future
                          moral forces of the Ego shone through reveal Hawk headed men and Crocodile
                          features of higher astral Initiation. Today in our labs we are taking these
                          same Beings and sexually manipulating them and cross breeding various
                          features and astral qualities. Recently we talked about the combination of
                          the Goat and the Spider for military research. (fact) The Geep combination
                          of Sheep and Goat; Pig and human genetic combinations for organ transplants
                          and blood transfusions; Each day we delve deeper into the worlds of Astral
                          Beings and former Egyptian mysteries that now appear under the sterile guise
                          of the scientist in a lab coat. Sex and Astral Intercourse are really what
                          we are looking at when we see the experiments of a little magnified cell
                          image and needle impregnating the cell with another form of gene combination
                          or chromosome structure.

                          Procreating and having sex and mingling forces in the lower innocent
                          Kingdoms who shared with humanity the fall, and have become in themselves
                          entangled fallen fragments of animal, plant, and mineral worlds that fell
                          with humanity and sacrificed themselves from out of our astral, etheric and
                          mineral forces from the planet and solar system development of ours and
                          their future destinies. These are a lot of so called Astral and Etheric TOYS
                          to play with. And behind that stands the unfallen Ego forces of these
                          various communities. Certainly what is actually here on Earth can now be
                          carried forward and upward by Human Spiritual Intelligence in the Scientific
                          community or continue to be infected with arbitrary influences from
                          unconscious human errors. Our, I think, is to indicate we are in somewhat of
                          a unique position if we intend to give birth to new phase shifts in Beings.
                          That which we sow on Earth is sown in Heaven.

                          Steiner continues;

                          *********** "How did these forces take effect in the evolution of humanity?
                          They took effect in the following way. We know that until approximately the
                          seventh year of life the physical body of the human being develops, from the
                          seventh to the fourteenth years the etheric body, from the fourteenth to the
                          twenty-first years the astral body, and so on. When the development of the
                          etheric body has been completed, man reaches the stage when he is able to
                          propagate his kind. (We will not now consider what form this takes in the
                          animal kingdom.) When the etheric body has fully developed, the human being
                          is able to reproduce his kind. Anyone who gives a little thought to this �
                          he need not be clairvoyant but only reflect a little � will say: when the
                          development of the etheric body is complete it is possible for a human being
                          to bring forth another of his kind in the fullest sense. This means that as
                          he grows on into the twenties he can develop no new procreative powers. It
                          cannot be said that a man of 30 adds anything to this capacity to propagate
                          his kind; he possesses it to the full as soon as the development of his
                          etheric body is complete. What factor is added later? Nothing that he
                          himself subsequently acquires is added, for he already possesses the power
                          of propagation to the full when the etheric body is completely developed.

                          What, then, is added? As far as the full power to propagate his kind is
                          concerned, the one and only capacity subsequently added by the human being
                          is that of being in a position to vitiate, to weaken it. What he can still
                          acquire after the full development of his etheric body cannot enrich the
                          actual power to propagate his kind, but can only impoverish it. The fact is
                          that qualities acquired after the onset of puberty contribute nothing to the
                          improvement of the human race but only make for its deterioration. This is
                          due to the influence of the impulse which proceeds from the guilt incurred
                          by the astral body.

                          After the etheric body has fully developed, that is to say, at about the
                          fourteenth year, the astral body develops further. Yes, but the influence of
                          Lucifer is implanted in the astral body! What works back again from there
                          into the functioning of the etheric body can only have the effect of
                          weakening the forces of the etheric body which enable man to propagate his
                          kind. In other words: what the astral body has become as the result of the
                          temptation of Lucifer is a perpetual cause of degeneration and deterioration
                          of the human race. And this has actually happened. �

                          Bradford writes;

                          The Sentient teenage astral forces with zits and chaotic emotional lives are
                          being tracked upwards from the time of the Egyptian Cultural period and
                          mainlined into the American Folk development. The Founding Fathers connected
                          our karma to the Egyptian stream. At that time in history the Adolescent
                          phase of human evolution was under way. This stream of the Astral body into
                          the Etheric body of humanity and the investigation of animal Archetypes and
                          Animal Group Soul entities represented a high phase of Egyptian Initiation
                          and research. The Science of the West is now walking unconsciously into the
                          higher Astral phases research of merging various patterns and Beings of
                          animal and human and animal and plant into new arbitrary combinations. Look
                          at the Scorpio King of Egypt and the Mummy film developments and they form
                          patterns of research that are equal to �The Sixth Day� and Spielberg�s �
                          A-I�.

                          http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/EgyPan.html

                          ********* "A note on animal iconography. The Egyptian divinities are
                          well-known for being portrayed with the heads and visages of various beasts.
                          The relationship between the divinities and such creatures is complex, and
                          beyond the scope of this article. Nevertheless, it should be noted that
                          these creatures were not necessarily the only animals sacred to the God or
                          Goddess they are connected with, or that they were the exclusive figure used
                          to image the divinity - in some cases the God or Goddess claimed more than
                          one animal, and in some cases the God or Goddess was portrayed with any of
                          several different creatures faces. Even so, in most cases a particular
                          creature was almost always used to image a divinity, and I have provided a
                          note indicating what beast icon was utilized commonly or exclusively. "

                          http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos446.htm

                          "The ancient Egyptians didn't worship animals. They had sacred animals, but
                          what they worship was the Divine Principle made manifest in that animal.
                          Hence, the Serapis bull symbolized the Divine Principle of Strength. The
                          Baboon of Thoth for two things: Society (baboons have, among the animals,
                          one of the most complex societies), and of Contemplation (Baboons will sit
                          and watch the Sun rise, among other
                          things). Horus with the Hawk, one who sees or watches the earth from
                          above, and sees it extremely well (hawks and birds of prey have a binocular
                          vision of about 7x power); Hence the celestial Horus eyes were the Sun and
                          the Moon. The attributes of Bast and of the Cat is very close.

                          And so, to the Egyptian, while man is an example of ALL the powers of all
                          the god/desses; certain animals manifest specific powers, and manifest them
                          more than man. Hence they worship the power behind the animals. Observe
                          outside, observe inside, you begin to see the relations between things. An
                          animal does not reason, it experiences directly. Man is deceived by the
                          incomplete testimony of his senses and his reason and has allowed the
                          instinctive consciousness to atrophy without having learned to use his
                          intuitive faculties which to the Egyptians, is the wisdom of the heart.
                          Therefore there are ancient rituals to strengthen the heart."

                          (note example of Astral Projection in the film �The Emerald Forest� rent it.

                          http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EgyptMyth/19080910p01.html

                          ******* �I have already pointed out that the older representations of Isis
                          were as follows: Isis is suckling Horus; but behind her stands a second Isis
                          with vulture wings, who holds out the Ankh to Horus to indicate that man
                          stems from a time when these types were still separate and that later the
                          other astral being also sank down into man. This second Isis points to how
                          the astral element predominated at one time. What was later united with the
                          human form is here portrayed behind the mother, as the astral form that
                          would have had vulture wings if it had followed only the astrality. But the
                          time when the etheric body predominated is portrayed in a third Isis,
                          lion-headed, behind the others. This threefold Isis is thus presented out of
                          a deep vision.�

                          Steiner indicates;

                          ******* �There has been continuous deterioration in man through the course
                          of the incarnations. The farther we go back towards the Atlantean epoch, the
                          more do we find in the physical endowments of man, higher forces than were
                          working in later times. Where, then, was the impulse activated in the astral
                          body through the temptation of Lucifer, implanted? It was implanted in
                          heredity, causing increasing deterioration in that process. Sin that man
                          incurs with his ego may work back upon the astral body and can only take
                          effect in karma; but the sin incurred by man before he had an ego,
                          contributes to a continual degeneration and deterioration of the human race
                          as a whole. This sin became an inheritance.

                          And just as it is true that no human being can inherit anything from his
                          ancestors in the higher, spiritual sense � for nobody is clever because he
                          has a clever father but because he learns things that make for cleverness
                          (nobody has yet inherited the principles of mathematics or other such
                          concepts from his ancestors) � just as we cannot inherit these capacities
                          but acquire them through education, it is equally true that what works back
                          into the etheric body from the astral body, contributes only to the
                          undermining of the faculties of the human race. There we have the true
                          meaning of the concept of �Original Sin�. The Original Sin which still
                          persisted in the human astral body was handed down by gradual transmission
                          and imparted itself to the hereditary qualities � which were themselves
                          involved in the process of physical degeneration � as a factor in man's
                          descent from spiritual heights into physical degeneration.

                          So the legacy of Lucifer's influence has been a continuous impulse which in
                          the very truest sense must be designated as Original Sin; for what entered
                          into the human astral body through Lucifer is transmitted from generation to
                          generation. There is no more appropriate term for the real cause of man's
                          fall into the material-physical world than the expression: Original Sin,
                          Inherited Sin.

                          But our conception of the Original Sin must differ from that of other sins
                          of ordinary life which are to be attributed entirely to ourselves: we must
                          think of Original Sin as a destiny of man, as something that had inevitably
                          to be imposed upon us by the World Order, because this World Order was
                          obliged to lead us downwards � not in order to worsen us but in order to
                          awaken in us the forces wherewith again to work our way upwards. We must
                          therefore conceive of this Fall as something that has been woven into human
                          destiny for the sake of the freeing of mankind. We could never have become
                          free beings had we not been thrust downwards; we should have been tied to
                          the strings of a World Order which we should have been obliged to follow
                          blindly. What we have to do is to work our own way upwards again. �

                          ****** ��we are facing a future when these ideas must no longer grovel
                          before us as abstractions but approach us as living forces. True as it is
                          that men have passed through the transitional stage of forming abstract
                          ideals, it is equally true that they must advance to the stage where these
                          ideals come to personal fulfillment within them; they must advance to the
                          portal of the new Temple. That is the prospect before us. Men will be taught
                          that what works down from spiritual heights is not mere abstraction but
                          living reality. When the new faculty of vision that is to arise in the next
                          phase of evolution begins to function, when men give up thinking, �How well
                          I am getting on!

                          Our thoughts cannot carry us into the true spiritual worlds because they
                          have no life. Not until we cease to regard these thoughts as our own
                          creations but as testimonies of the Living Christ Who will appear to men,
                          shall we rightly understand these thoughts. Then, as truly as man became a
                          personality through descending with his ego into lower spheres, as truly
                          will he be a personality when he ascends to the heights of spirit.

                          This is beyond the comprehension of materialistic thinking. All that
                          materialism can understand, and readily understand, is that there are
                          abstract ideals, ideals of the Good, the Beautiful, and so forth. That there
                          are living Powers who draw us upwards through their Grace � this can be
                          realized only through spiritual development. That is what the renewed Christ
                          Impulse means. When we no longer regard our ideals simply as ideals but
                          through them find the way to Christ, then we help Christianity forward in
                          the sense of Spiritual Science; then Christianity will enter a new stage and
                          cease to be merely a preparation.

                          Christianity will itself make evident that it contains the greatest of all
                          impulses for all time to come. And then those who believe that to speak of
                          developing Christianity is only to endanger it will see how greatly they are
                          in error. These are the people of �little faith�, who are alarmed when it is
                          said that in Christianity there are glories still greater than have yet been
                          revealed. Those whose conception of Christianity bears the hallmark of
                          greatness are men who know that the words that Christ is with us to the end
                          of time are true � meaning that He is the constant Revealer of the New and
                          at the same time its origin and source.�

                          Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
                          That saved a wretch like me.
                          I once was lost, but now am found,
                          Was blind, but now I see.

                          'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
                          And grace my fears relieved.
                          How precious did that grace appear
                          The hour I first believed.

                          Through many dangers, toils and snares
                          I have already come;
                          'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
                          And grace will lead me home.

                          The Lord has promised good to me
                          His word my hope secures;
                          He will my shield and portion be,
                          As long as life endures.

                          Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
                          and mortal life shall cease,
                          I shall possess within the veil,
                          A life of joy and peace.

                          When we've been there ten thousand years
                          Bright shining as the sun,
                          We've no less days to sing God's praise
                          Than when we've first begun.

                          John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)






                          Joksu wrote;

                          >A secret traditoin tells: Cain was a human being, who later
                          >incarnated as Hiram Abif. King Solomon was an Abel-character, in all
                          >his wisdom serving and humble; he was a magician. But Cain, who
                          >was "greater in skills", was born as Hiram Abif, and without him King
                          >Solomon could not build his temple. Solomon had to be allied with
                          >Hiram Abif, Abel with Cain. And Hiram Abif incarnated later as
                          >Lazarus, whom Jesus Christ "raised from the dead" and who was also
                          >apostle John (here we can also remember what Bradford have written
                          >about John the Babtist.) And St.John incarnated later as Christian
                          >Rosenkreutz, that great Master, who is immensly near Jesus Christ and
                          >is behind all occult and mystical organisations in the "west". He is
                          >a wonderful example to us all, how to rise from a fall to great
                          >hights.
                          >
                          >Then there is still the karmic aspect. When Cain had killed Abel,
                          >Cain said to God that now anyone can kill him. Cain is told that if
                          >he is killed, there will be sevenfold revenge. I link this event to a
                          >certain "karmic start", where the karma is wielded by the planetary
                          >spirit. And now it is clearly the karma and "dharma" (spiritual duty)
                          >of this Rosenkreutz stream to see, that this karma is "redeemed"
                          >and "transferred to the hand of Christ". It has a lot to do with the
                          >new Mystery School, which Dr. Steiner worked for (but he could only
                          >open the first from the three "degrees"). It has also tight links to
                          >the "second coming of Christ" and the karmic changes attached to it.
                          >
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
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                        • elaineupton2001
                          Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread, Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams, with Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 29, 2002
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                            Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread,

                            Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams, with
                            Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel, side, and with Hiram Abif
                            through to Lazarus/John and Christian Rosenkreutz on the other -Cain--
                            side. This is food for thought. Your further speculations on St.
                            Francis (??), Jouko, I will let rest for now; yet I do appreciate
                            your willingness to come forward here.

                            Somewhere Steiner talks about the "St. Francis" soul having had an
                            earlier (medieval?) incarnation among Buddhists. I believe this is in
                            the lectures on Morality (can't remember the exact title of these
                            lectures on St. Francis).

                            In any case, I find it important to redeem the stream of Christian
                            Rosenkreutz from the unclarity (in my view) to which it appears at
                            least to have fallen in various Rosicrucian organizations today.
                            Steiner also somewhere (i forget the title under which his lectures
                            or published) speaks of three streams--1)Rosicrucian, and is the 2nd
                            Manicheean, and the 3rd? Can someone help me here???
                            The three also come together somehow, or is it two instead of three?

                            Who of us identifies with one or other of these various streams?

                            Of the Cain-Abel stream, I think both are important, but I definitely
                            identify more strongly with the Cain stream. Thinking, risk taking,
                            going beyond priestly authority, and also the idea of being
                            the "farmer/gardener", where one uses thinking, risk taking to
                            create, Co-create with God, rather than be a passive nomadic
                            shepherd, although this way also has it's place, but I am drawn to
                            the Cain --Rosenkreuz stream more than the other.

                            Thanks for re-minding me!

                            Please, anyone, if you can help with my questions above, I will
                            appreciate it.
                            ((I am less often on computer, but should return here by Thursday to
                            read and reply.))

                            Your servant,
                            elaine
                          • joksu57
                            ... with ... Cain-- ... in ... 2nd ... definitely ... to ... joksu writes: Hello Elaine and any of this thread! The occultist to whom I referred in my original
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 30, 2002
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                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@h...> wrote:
                              >
                              Elaine wrote:

                              > Dear Jouko and Bradford and any of this thread,
                              >
                              > Thanks for the wonderful contributions on Cain and Abel streams,
                              with
                              > Solomon--St. Germain on the one, Abel, side, and with Hiram Abif
                              > through to Lazarus/John and Christian Rosenkreutz on the other -
                              Cain--
                              > side. This is food for thought. Your further speculations on St.
                              > Francis (??), Jouko, I will let rest for now; yet I do appreciate
                              > your willingness to come forward here.
                              >
                              > Somewhere Steiner talks about the "St. Francis" soul having had an
                              > earlier (medieval?) incarnation among Buddhists. I believe this is
                              in
                              > the lectures on Morality (can't remember the exact title of these
                              > lectures on St. Francis).
                              >
                              > In any case, I find it important to redeem the stream of Christian
                              > Rosenkreutz from the unclarity (in my view) to which it appears at
                              > least to have fallen in various Rosicrucian organizations today.
                              > Steiner also somewhere (i forget the title under which his lectures
                              > or published) speaks of three streams--1)Rosicrucian, and is the
                              2nd
                              > Manicheean, and the 3rd? Can someone help me here???
                              > The three also come together somehow, or is it two instead of three?
                              >
                              > Who of us identifies with one or other of these various streams?
                              >
                              > Of the Cain-Abel stream, I think both are important, but I
                              definitely
                              > identify more strongly with the Cain stream. Thinking, risk taking,
                              > going beyond priestly authority, and also the idea of being
                              > the "farmer/gardener", where one uses thinking, risk taking to
                              > create, Co-create with God, rather than be a passive nomadic
                              > shepherd, although this way also has it's place, but I am drawn to
                              > the Cain --Rosenkreuz stream more than the other.
                              >
                              > Thanks for re-minding me!
                              >
                              > Please, anyone, if you can help with my questions above, I will
                              > appreciate it.
                              > ((I am less often on computer, but should return here by Thursday
                              to
                              > read and reply.))
                              >
                              > Your servant,
                              > elaine

                              joksu writes:

                              Hello Elaine and any of this thread!

                              The occultist to whom I referred in my original message about the
                              lecture "Cain" (Mr. Ervast) has also said, that St. Francis have been
                              a "typical disciple of Buddha" in some previous incarnation (no
                              timescale indicated). As I said, I just speculated (which can be
                              stupid in these affairs) about a possible "line" from saint to a
                              macigian.

                              About the manichean stream (which has a lot to do with the question,
                              how we approach and deal with the "evil") there are some good points
                              in S. Prokoffjef's book concerning the spiritual significance of
                              forgiving. (From this author that book is my favourite.) I think that
                              in some sense the manichean stream is considered "higher" than the
                              rosicrucian one in this book. Perhaps this "manicheanism" could be
                              added as the third factor, when we compare these lines to
                              the "trinity in man": Mani - Cain - Abel??

                              Well, I think that I have more questions than answers. I have also
                              pondered about the "pairs": Cain - Abel
                              Hiram Abif - Solomon
                              Lazarus/
                              St. John - John the Babtist
                              Rosenkreutz- St. Germain
                              and then: Steiner - ???. Is something still
                              missing?

                              Then there is the old legend, which says that Abel was the first son
                              by Adam and Eve. Cain was older and according to this legend his
                              father was a "spritual being" called Samael. This in some way
                              explains the differences between Cain and Abel. This name "Samael"
                              can point to some earlier periods in the "Earth-evolution", possibly
                              to Saturn-period. (This connection always reminds me of
                              the "Wälsungen" in the Ring-cycle; they are "Cain-types". And when we
                              think that farmer is working with soil (=mineral kingdom), then in
                              the Saturn period the mankind was in a stage, which can be compared
                              to mineral kingdom.)

                              Oops, it just occured to me that this text is probably not exactly
                              what could be called "redeeming the stream of Rosenkreutz from
                              unclarity"! But sometimes questions can be at least as valuable as
                              answers.

                              About identification and the various streams: I also have a close
                              affinity to the Rosenkreutz stream (even though I can hardly manage
                              to keep alive a cactus in my apartment!), but this third stream is
                              also very interesting. Perhaps it has something to do with the
                              balance between thinking and feeling (Cain and Abel). Then the
                              real "will-function" is possible and also winning the evil without
                              fighting against it.

                              Warm Regards
                              Jouko
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