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Re: Baptism for the masses?

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  • elaineupton2001
    Hello corian (??) What is your name, your relationship to anthroposophy, if you care to say? Your question seems to me to be (potentially) an important one,
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 9, 2002
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      Hello "corian" (??)
      What is your name, your relationship to anthroposophy, if you care to
      say?

      Your question seems to me to be (potentially) an important one, with
      the caveat I refer to here later, below, in this post.

      You could look at Steiner's lectures on the Gospel of St. John and
      the Baptism of Jesus (who became Christened) at the Jordan River
      site. But-but--Steiner warns against mere curiosity. You ask about
      Baptism for "the masses" (who are they?), and for yourself? Out of
      what context?

      Now comes the caveat: I suggest you read basic anthroposophy before
      proceeding to details of Baptism, because understanding of this issue
      I feel must be placed in context, the larger context of spiritual
      science, the world view that is put forth through spiritual
      science/anthroposophy. Otherwise, you take something out of context.
      Understanding requires often long and deep study into these matters
      and there are no quick answers (at least not for many questions). I
      strongly suggest you first study more of anthroposophy, and the
      context out of which Steiner might speak about Baptism or any other
      specific issue.

      Respectfully,
      elaine


      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "corian_light" <corian_light@y...> wrote:
      > I have been searching fervently for information on how Steiner
      views
      > baptism for us. Much is said about THE baptism of Jesus, but what
      > about for the masses now after the Christ has come? Does it have
      any
      > place in modern society for the masses today? (ie. do i need to be
      > baptised?) Does Steiner adress this?
    • eurythmy
      Dear Corian There was a remark from Steiner ,is it in Karma of Vocation? that Waldorf education is as the sacrament of baptism. So it seem that it let you
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 9, 2002
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        Dear Corian
        There was a remark from Steiner ,is it in Karma of Vocation? that Waldorf education is as the
        sacrament of baptism.
        So it seem that it let you quite free, self education could be as good, no need of water and
        salt nor ashes, nor ritual formulae now adays, but if it is your choice you can go the ritual
        way, some priest are quite able.
        Franky
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: corian_light <corian_light@...>
        To: <anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:21 PM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] Baptism for the masses?


        I have been searching fervently for information on how Steiner views
        baptism for us. Much is said about THE baptism of Jesus, but what
        about for the masses now after the Christ has come? Does it have any
        place in modern society for the masses today? (ie. do i need to be
        baptised?) Does Steiner adress this?



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      • corian_light
        Thanks for your response, and yes i feel that the answer to this question is important, whichever way the answer goes... I have studied a good deal of
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 10, 2002
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          Thanks for your response, and yes i feel that the answer to this
          question is important, whichever way the answer goes... I have
          studied a good deal of anthroposophy, well beyond the basic books. I
          wont say ive mastered anything however :) I have only recently
          become seriously involved with the work that Steiner did concerning
          our relationship with the Christ. This is foremost in my personal
          development at this point.

          Ive read along these lines:
          The reappearance of Christ in the Etheric
          The Gospel of John and Its relation to the other Gospel
          From Buddha to Christ
          The Gospel of St John

          I certainly agree that more reading needs to be done, if you want to
          recommend reading geared toward the Christ angle, I am most
          interested. I am far more than curious, I am driven by the very
          nature of my being to understand the whole mystery. What I am
          searching for is the answer to the question, 'do i need to be
          baptised?' Certainly this is a big issue, but this is what i am
          thinking: Baptism as we see it today is symbolic. I see that in the
          past it was part of an initiatory process, but today i see nothing
          essential in the physical act. Symbolically tho i like the idea.
          Here is the situation, I find myself surrounded by conservative
          christian types (my wife included) who believe baptism is an
          essential part of being a christian. So you see im trying to find
          out what (if any) words Steiner would have to say about Baptism for
          the general person today. Is it still a essential practice? Is it
          part of a moden initiation? is it symbolic of an inner
          transformation? Does it actually bring us in touch with the Christ?
          And Thank You!

          , --- In anthroposophy@y..., "elaineupton2001" <elaineupton@h...>
          wrote:
          > Hello "corian" (??)
          > What is your name, your relationship to anthroposophy, if you care
          to
          > say?
          >
          > Your question seems to me to be (potentially) an important one,
          with
          > the caveat I refer to here later, below, in this post.
          >
          > You could look at Steiner's lectures on the Gospel of St. John and
          > the Baptism of Jesus (who became Christened) at the Jordan River
          > site. But-but--Steiner warns against mere curiosity. You ask about
          > Baptism for "the masses" (who are they?), and for yourself? Out of
          > what context?
          >
          > Now comes the caveat: I suggest you read basic anthroposophy before
          > proceeding to details of Baptism, because understanding of this
          issue
          > I feel must be placed in context, the larger context of spiritual
          > science, the world view that is put forth through spiritual
          > science/anthroposophy. Otherwise, you take something out of
          context.
          > Understanding requires often long and deep study into these matters
          > and there are no quick answers (at least not for many questions). I
          > strongly suggest you first study more of anthroposophy, and the
          > context out of which Steiner might speak about Baptism or any other
          > specific issue.
          >
          > Respectfully,
          > elaine
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy@y..., "corian_light" <corian_light@y...> wrote:
          > > I have been searching fervently for information on how Steiner
          > views
          > > baptism for us. Much is said about THE baptism of Jesus, but what
          > > about for the masses now after the Christ has come? Does it have
          > any
          > > place in modern society for the masses today? (ie. do i need to
          be
          > > baptised?) Does Steiner adress this?
        • ghamin
          Can you imagine baptism for a non-believer through a prayer for the forgiveness of sins spoken by another person? What was new came through the head and
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 10, 2002
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            Can you imagine baptism for a non-believer through a prayer for the
            forgiveness of sins spoken by another person? What was new came through the
            head and pushed what was old out through the feet. This made the body so
            light and pure that it was possible to walk without touching the ground.
            This did not come through any church but out in the field through a
            non-denominal Jewish friend.
            Can you imagine baptism through a supersensible impression in nature or in a
            eurythmy performance that washes away the weight of the body?
            Does baptism not occur through the openness to receive from the act of
            grace?

            gh.
          • Bradford Riley
            From: corian_light ... Bradford writes; Well your life and the water part of the Spirit is not a proving ground for those who are
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 10, 2002
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              From: "corian_light" <corian_light@...>
              >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Baptism for the masses?
              >Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:48:40 -0000
              >

              Bradford writes;

              Well your life and the water part of the Spirit is not a proving ground for
              those who are not ready to hear what you have to say. Wife included. Firstly
              the gigantic mystery of womb entrance through the breaking of the waters and
              the later event of Igniting the Manas spark of the Holy Spirit of fire has
              to do with the biographical stretch of the human life span. Lest ye be born
              of Water and Fire. Fire is an enhancement of the Higher consciousness.

              By the by "From Jesus to Christ" was always one of my favorites.

              But to the point. You can't argue with fundamental egregores, which I
              suppose you are clueless what that means. Yet, a Christian community Priest
              at least is placing the water and the Baptism within a new interior
              framework suited for the current 21st century upgrade of consciousness. A
              Christian Community Priest is bringing enhanced new Spirit Fire insights
              into the cermony of the baptism or confirmation.

              We need to examine the early child of innocence new born baby and the later
              astral cleansing of confirmation. It would be wise for you to see, "Oh
              Brother Where Art thou" the film. In Baptism for adults it was a loosened
              connection to the etheric body, (which we no longer have) that brought about
              a mini vision of the incarnation of the human out of the Spirit. Adults back
              then could be disconnected easily. Now, and try to convince your life
              partner about this, now the etheric body is more firmly entrenched in the
              physical and the near death or drowning baptism back then was easier to
              loosen the soul from its mooring for a moment.

              There and back then, the soul was freed from its physical body of current
              issues and was suddenly in the neighboring, every present, spiritual world.
              The Tableau of Life, karma, guiding Angelic activity, pre-incarnation
              insights would suddenly rise up... and vanish quickly with a choke and a
              sputter. But the soul remembered it and had an experience of it.

              So, there is very little hope of getting past the guard dogs of
              fundamentalism, however I would greatly love to see a test case like yours
              get through and have a positive solution. The facts of the matter on
              Baptism, are wonderful ideas within the Christian community. I think Salt is
              used as well.. But the Christian Community Priests are qualified and you can
              make a compromise. Since one is probably not in your neighborhood you can
              say, yes, I will get baptized and I will go this Christian Community Priest
              and fly there, drive there and get Baptized.. (You actually then check in at
              a Motel 6 and make sure it has a pool and...) just kidding.

              But as far as exact advice there are numerous Christian Community Priests
              who answer exact questions like yours. Otherwise see "Oh Brother Where Art
              Thou" and try to imagine how the Odyssey of Homer is related to this text..
              Another more important film to see, for your wifes sake is "Resurrection"
              with Sam Shepherd. In that film the near death experience of Baptism happens
              with a real near death experience and the rest of the film deals with the
              stiff and ugly fundamentalism that exists in American life. Your chances of
              changing that are about equal to Ellen Burstens.


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            • fireofthe12
              Dear Corian, ... Rudolf Steiner gave the Christian community the sacrament of baptism: http://www.thechristiancommunity.org/communities.htm This is usually
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 10, 2002
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                Dear Corian,
                > What I am
                > searching for is the answer to the question, 'do i need to be
                > baptised?'

                Rudolf Steiner gave the Christian community the sacrament of baptism:

                http://www.thechristiancommunity.org/communities.htm

                This is usually done before a baby is six weeks old, as it is an
                assistance to incarantion.

                If you really feel the need for it, a priest may perform this
                sacrament for you.

                As you have read, in the old form of baptism the etheric body was
                pushed out temporarily and certain visions were given.
                This is not the main point to it though, because the etheric body can
                also be shocked out by such things as drugs, sexual ecstasy, sweat
                lodges, etc.

                You'll find more about the process in Dr. Steiner's series "Building
                Stones for an Understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha." The process
                led the aspirant back to a point were he experienced the condition
                before the Fall- a full explanation is in the lecture series.


                > Is it still a essential practice? Is it
                > part of a moden initiation? is it symbolic of an inner
                > transformation? Does it actually bring us in touch with the
                Christ?

                The Communion or the Act of Consecration of Man should be sufficient
                for this.

                Kind Regards,
                Bruce
              • elaineupton2001
                Hello dear Corian, Thanks for your reply to me (I assume it is to me, although you do not address me directly or by name...).--See my responses (about baptism
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 11, 2002
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                  Hello dear Corian,
                  Thanks for your reply to me (I assume it is to me, although you do
                  not address me directly or by name...).--See my responses (about
                  baptism rituals and symbolism, your wife and conservative christians,
                  etc.) below.

                  First, of your relation to Steiner and readings in anthroposophy (a
                  la my question), you write:

                  >
                  > Ive read along these lines:
                  > The reappearance of Christ in the Etheric
                  > The Gospel of John and Its relation to the other Gospel
                  > From Buddha to Christ
                  > The Gospel of St John


                  Wonderful places to read, in my opinion! The John Gospel is central
                  to me, and Steiner placed great emphasis on it.

                  >
                  > I certainly agree that more reading needs to be done, if you want
                  to
                  > recommend reading geared toward the Christ angle, I am most
                  > interested.

                  It looks to me like you are doing just fine. *The Apocalypse of St.
                  John (lectures on the book of Revelations) are also good. *Occult
                  Science:An Outline* is considered to be a basic text. There is much,
                  of course, to read.



                  I am far more than curious, I am driven by the very
                  > nature of my being to understand the whole mystery.

                  Excellent, dear Corian. "By the very nature of [your] being..."! That
                  is something I can relate to, as probably many on this list can!


                  >What I am
                  > searching for is the answer to the question, 'do i need to be
                  > baptised?' Certainly this is a big issue, but this is what i am
                  > thinking: Baptism as we see it today is symbolic. I see that in
                  the
                  > past it was part of an initiatory process, but today i see nothing
                  > essential in the physical act. Symbolically tho i like the idea.
                  > Here is the situation, I find myself surrounded by conservative
                  > christian types (my wife included) who believe baptism is an
                  > essential part of being a christian. So you see im trying to find
                  > out what (if any) words Steiner would have to say about Baptism for
                  > the general person today. Is it still a essential practice? Is it
                  > part of a moden initiation? is it symbolic of an inner
                  > transformation? Does it actually bring us in touch with the
                  Christ?
                  > And Thank You!

                  Thank you for writing so openly! I imagine it is not easy to live
                  around conservative christians, and that your relationship with your
                  wife can take some complex and interesting turns in this regard. Best
                  wishes! Are there any anthropops near you? If so, could you start a
                  study group? If not, have you considered moving? If that does not
                  work, well, maybe it is your destiny to live out this difficult
                  challenge of being more obviously "homeless" in a way of speaking, as
                  a kind of initiation??? I don't know, but these are possibilities.

                  As for your very real question of baptism, I see that others here are
                  responding with meaningful answers. I would merely add that while
                  outer rituals may not be necessary any longer, they can serve as
                  reminders. Symbolic actions can have a level of reality. One thing
                  you might consider is the nature of WATER itself. What is your
                  relationship to that element and its relationship to the other three
                  basic elements? Become intimate with physical water, and then also
                  with spiritual water.

                  Jennifer Greene and her teacher, the well-known anthroposophist, the
                  late Theodor Schwenk (author of *Sensible Chaos*, with wonderful
                  water pictures) have a lot to say about WATER.

                  Also, Steiner speaks of the "Trial By Water," in *How to Know HIgher
                  Worlds* (HTKHW), also called *Knowledge of Higher Worlds and Its
                  Attainment* in some earlier translations.

                  Meditate, if you will, upon the story of Jesus walking on water, and
                  any other great water stories. Study these, if you will. The meanings
                  are deeper than appears on the surface. What is this "water"?

                  Where do you live, if you don't mind saying? There may be people on
                  this list who could connect you to anthropops in your neck of the
                  woods or not to far away.

                  Best wishes,
                  elaine
                • elaineupton2001
                  Hello Corian, I wrote once, but the mail did not go through, apparently, so I am writing again, a similar version to the first letter. Thanks for your reply (I
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 11, 2002
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                    Hello Corian,

                    I wrote once, but the mail did not go through, apparently, so I am
                    writing again, a similar version to the first letter.

                    Thanks for your reply (I assume to me, though you did not directly
                    say so--smile).

                    I think you have an interesting situation living among conservative
                    christians, including your wife. Can you move to be near
                    anthroposophists? Or do you feel called to remain where you are?

                    Yes, as others are saying in their replies to you, baptism today can
                    take other forms, and the use of water is symbolic and seemingly not
                    mandatory. Yet, symbolic actions can have a level of reality, can
                    serve as reminders, moments of focus and devotion.

                    WATER? What is it, spiritually, physically? Do you know the work of
                    Jennifer Green and her teacher, the well-known anthroposophist, the
                    late Theodor Schwenk (author of *Sensible Chaos*)? They have
                    wonderful offerings about the element of water?

                    What does it mean that Jesus walked on water? What are other great
                    water stories? You might study and meditate upon these? What is your
                    relationship to water, to cleansing and purification, to loss of
                    earthly balance, and so forth? These are things to study and meditate
                    upon. No quick answers, ordinarily... (smile).

                    Thanks for sharing your relationship to anthroposophy (the desire
                    born of the "very nature of your being") and thanks for the list of
                    Steiner works you've read so far. This list looks good to me. You
                    might want to add *The Apocalypse of St. John* (since you are in a
                    St. John mode, and that is wonderful, in my opinion).

                    In HTKHW (How to Know Higher Worlds), earlier translated as Knowledge
                    of Higher Worlds and Its Attainment, Steiner refers to the Trial by
                    Water (as well as other trials, in the four elements).

                    Where, if you don't mind saying, do you live? Maybe you could start a
                    study group, and maybe there are other people on this list who live
                    near you or who could tell you of anthropops in your neck of the
                    woods?

                    Or do you have a destiny to be in a region of "homelessness"?

                    Thanks for your burning quest,
                    elaine
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