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Att: Bruce 2

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  • Michael Meiring
    Dear Bruce, ... The problem is that Rudolf Steiner never went back to the Scriptures to test the accuracy of his teachings. If you read the Bible alone, you
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 2, 2002
      Dear Bruce,
       
      You wrote:
       
      > the Christian initiate through his training is able to perceive the facts ... and then go back and check the scriptures for their accuracy. He reads from the "Eternal Gospel" spoken of in the Apocalypse. [Rev. 14:6]. Such an initiate was Rudolf Steiner.
       
      The problem is that Rudolf Steiner never went back to the Scriptures to test the accuracy of his teachings. If you read the Bible alone, you won't come up with such a daft interpretation of Genesis 6 as Steiner's - the sinking of Atlantis. Steiner rejected the gospel of God and taught heretical doctrines which contradicted God's word. We test a man's teaching by the word of God (Acts 17:11).
       
       
      > To confine God to any book is idolatrous. I'm sure Almighty God doesn't like being squished into a tiny book any more than He does a Teraphim... Idolatry comes to the fore when folks lose their innate spirit knowledge and need to rely on books and statues.
      Christians will never claim to confine God to a book. Neither will they regard the Bible as a "dusty old book". The Bible is God's special revelation to us. His word is truth (Jn. 17:17). The Bible is "God-breathed" or inspired (2 Tim. 3:16). I would rather place my faith in the Bible which is divinely inspired, than in the writings of Rudolf Steiner who was a fallible, mere man.
       
      Idolatry is not heeding to God's word. Idolatry, in fact, comes about because of man's "innate spirit knowledge". The Bible says:
       
      "Although [man] knew God, they neither glorified him as God... They became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator." (Rom. 1:21-23, 25)
       
       
      "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Corinthians 3:6. Some Christians won't relate to the Bible at all, they will have a personal relationship with the Living Christ.
      WOW! Are you saying that 2 Corinthians 3:6 is referring to the Bible as the "letter" which kills? Again, you have ripped a verse out of context! The chapter begins with Paul saying, "Do we need ... letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter..." (vs. 1-2). Obviously then, the "letter" is not the Bible. Paul is saying that the Christians in Corinth are showing that they are followers of Christ through the inward work of the Holy Spirit (v. 3), and not through a written letter. Therefore, he is saying that the Holy Spirit is the One who gives life - the new birth (v. 6 cf. Jn. 3:5).
       
      And we learn from the Scriptures that there exists an inseparable connection between the Holy Spirit and the word of God, the Bible. The apostle Paul says to the Spirit-filled Christian, "Take ... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Eph. 6:17). For those who live by the Spirit, the word of God is his/her guide to all truth, knowledge and righteousness (2 Tim. 3:17). Rudolf Steiner, on the other hand, was not a Christian, but a philosopher who was influenced by eastern mysticism, gnosticism, Greek mythology, Hinduism, and every other false idolatry.
       
       
      > The revelations of the great Zarathustra, his perception of Ahura Mazdao (the Aura of the Sun), these understandings and more were meant to flow into Christianity. Ahura Mazdao is the Christ (Not in toto as the Creative Word though) before His descent into matter.
      Rubbish!
       

      > The Seven Elohim of Genesis 1:1 are the revealers of Christ in the Cosmos.

      Where does it say this in God's word?
       
       
      > In Christ, Bruce.
      Correction: "In Steiner".
       
       
      Michael.
    • utopia_planetia_2000
      Dear Michael, YOU WROTE: Christians will never claim to confine God to a book. Neither will they regard the Bible as a dusty old book . The Bible is God s
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 2, 2002
        Dear Michael,

        YOU WROTE:
        Christians will never claim to confine God to a book. Neither will
        they regard the Bible as a "dusty old book". The Bible is God's
        special revelation to us. His word is truth (Jn. 17:17). The Bible
        is "God-breathed" or inspired (2 Tim. 3:16). I would rather place my
        faith in the Bible which is divinely inspired, than in the writings
        of Rudolf Steiner who was a fallible, mere man.

        Idolatry is not heeding to God's word. Idolatry, in fact, comes about
        because of man's "innate spirit knowledge". The Bible says:

        "Although [man] knew God, they neither glorified him as God... They
        became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images
        made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles...
        They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served
        created things rather than the Creator." (Rom. 1:21-23, 25)

        *******

        History points out that the Bible is an arbitrary assemblage of many
        books. Religious authority decided which ones were to be left out,
        and which parts (only) of the other would be comprised in the Bible.
        The rest is considered apocryph and heretical still in today's eyes.
        But this is not a good argument since I can't show you the evidence
        in a few minutes.

        - The authority were men, they were faillible.

        Words by themselves mean nothing, do nothing, until someone is able
        to read them. But then again, these words mean nothing still if one
        does not have concepts to interpret them. Conceptualization is
        totally subjective, influenced by culture.

        - Words written in any book are not faillible, but their
        interpretation is.

        Words do not "breathe" and cannot be "God breathed". Only the writer
        and the reader can breathe life into a word by his conceptualization.
        And one cannot understand the word "understand" the same way he did
        several years ago unless the truth can be defined in a finite way.
        Jesus did not answer to Pilate's question.

        Steiner wrtings are faillible therefore. Both HIS interpretation and
        OURS.

        Then we'd have to define what is FAILLIBILITY. If Steiner is
        faillible and he's a man, the we have to infer that all men are
        faillible. Therefore, one can say:

        - The bible was inspired by God to the hand of a writer, but that
        writer was a man, thus the writing is faillible.

        If FAILLIBILITY means ALSO the inability to convey the truth, one can
        say:

        - the bible is not translated into my language, thus it is faillible.

        - the bible has been translated into another language therefore we
        can doubt the ability of the translator since he is a MAN, thus
        faillible.

        - the bible was written thousands of years ago. Its references to
        concepts, symbology and ideas belong not only to another culture, but
        to another time. My culture and my time are so different from then
        that I find it difficult to relate the concepts, symbology and ideas.
        THEREFORE, the Bible is faillible.

        BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, this premise:

        If faillibility means not PERFECT, incomplete, the one could say:

        - my understanding of the bible is based on my CURRENT knowledge,
        culture, and understanding. Therefore, MY interpretation is faillible.


        Again, I state:

        Steiner writings are faillible therefore. Both HIS interpretation and
        OURS.
        So is the Bible in the light of this.
      • utopia_planetia_2000
        And there is an evident faillibility in the logic I exposed below!!! :-) ... my ... about ... served ... many ... Bible. ... eyes. ... writer ...
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 2, 2002
          And there is an evident faillibility in the logic I exposed
          below!!! :-)


          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "utopia_planetia_2000"
          <utopia_planetia@h...> wrote:
          > Dear Michael,
          >
          > YOU WROTE:
          > Christians will never claim to confine God to a book. Neither will
          > they regard the Bible as a "dusty old book". The Bible is God's
          > special revelation to us. His word is truth (Jn. 17:17). The Bible
          > is "God-breathed" or inspired (2 Tim. 3:16). I would rather place
          my
          > faith in the Bible which is divinely inspired, than in the writings
          > of Rudolf Steiner who was a fallible, mere man.
          >
          > Idolatry is not heeding to God's word. Idolatry, in fact, comes
          about
          > because of man's "innate spirit knowledge". The Bible says:
          >
          > "Although [man] knew God, they neither glorified him as God... They
          > became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images
          > made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles...
          > They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and
          served
          > created things rather than the Creator." (Rom. 1:21-23, 25)
          >
          > *******
          >
          > History points out that the Bible is an arbitrary assemblage of
          many
          > books. Religious authority decided which ones were to be left out,
          > and which parts (only) of the other would be comprised in the
          Bible.
          > The rest is considered apocryph and heretical still in today's
          eyes.
          > But this is not a good argument since I can't show you the evidence
          > in a few minutes.
          >
          > - The authority were men, they were faillible.
          >
          > Words by themselves mean nothing, do nothing, until someone is able
          > to read them. But then again, these words mean nothing still if one
          > does not have concepts to interpret them. Conceptualization is
          > totally subjective, influenced by culture.
          >
          > - Words written in any book are not faillible, but their
          > interpretation is.
          >
          > Words do not "breathe" and cannot be "God breathed". Only the
          writer
          > and the reader can breathe life into a word by his
          conceptualization.
          > And one cannot understand the word "understand" the same way he did
          > several years ago unless the truth can be defined in a finite way.
          > Jesus did not answer to Pilate's question.
          >
          > Steiner wrtings are faillible therefore. Both HIS interpretation
          and
          > OURS.
          >
          > Then we'd have to define what is FAILLIBILITY. If Steiner is
          > faillible and he's a man, the we have to infer that all men are
          > faillible. Therefore, one can say:
          >
          > - The bible was inspired by God to the hand of a writer, but that
          > writer was a man, thus the writing is faillible.
          >
          > If FAILLIBILITY means ALSO the inability to convey the truth, one
          can
          > say:
          >
          > - the bible is not translated into my language, thus it is
          faillible.
          >
          > - the bible has been translated into another language therefore we
          > can doubt the ability of the translator since he is a MAN, thus
          > faillible.
          >
          > - the bible was written thousands of years ago. Its references to
          > concepts, symbology and ideas belong not only to another culture,
          but
          > to another time. My culture and my time are so different from then
          > that I find it difficult to relate the concepts, symbology and
          ideas.
          > THEREFORE, the Bible is faillible.
          >
          > BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, this premise:
          >
          > If faillibility means not PERFECT, incomplete, the one could say:
          >
          > - my understanding of the bible is based on my CURRENT knowledge,
          > culture, and understanding. Therefore, MY interpretation is
          faillible.
          >
          >
          > Again, I state:
          >
          > Steiner writings are faillible therefore. Both HIS interpretation
          and
          > OURS.
          > So is the Bible in the light of this.
        • Ghamin
          Michael wrote: 1. The Bible says that there is only one God, and He is the LORD who exists as three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Rudolf
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 3, 2002
            Michael wrote:
            1.
            The Bible says that there is only one God, and He is the LORD who exists as three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
             
            Rudolf Steiner taught polytheism, that there exists many gods.
             
            G: God and god are not the same god.  The word god implys certain being on a different plan.  When "gods" are mentioned, the implication is not exactly the same as the One God.  The belief of "God is One" (and All-embracing) is respected in many religions.  But the Church changed it into there is only one God, namely "mine"!
             
             
            2.
            The Bible says that Jesus Christ is God the Son who was also fully Man (yet without sin).
             
            Rudolf Steiner taught that Jesus and Christ were two separate beings and that the former was only a human, whereas the latter was a god.
             
            G: Can you please tell me the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God?
             
             
            3.
            The Bible says that man was created in the image of God, i.e. with righteousness, holiness, and knowledge. In these qualites man reflected the likeness of God. Yet, man was still created with a human nature, not with a divine nature.
             
            Rudolf Steiner erroneously taught that the image of God meant that man was created with a divine nature, and are thus, gods in embryo.
             
            G: How can human being bear the image of God if without his divine nature, distorted or non-distorted?
             
             
            4.
            The Bible says that, since the fall of Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden, man has been shut out from the tree of life, and is born with a sinful nature.
             
            Rudolf Steiner denied the biblical account of the Fall and instead interpreted Genesis 3 in an extreme esoteric way. He said that man is inherently good.
             
            G: The Bible never said that the image of God, the all good, was lifted off from the human being.
             
            5.
            The Bible says that God the Son (Jesus Christ) came down to earth to save His people from their sins, through His shed blood on the cross.
             
            Rudolf Steiner denied the biblical atonement of Jesus Christ, saying that His death was simply a demonstration of the power of the huiman ego.
             
            G: Steiner did not deny the above saying.  I think you are a little confused here.
             
            6.
            The Bible says that through the resurrection of Christ, all those who turn to Him for forgiveness of sins are justified by faith alone.
             
            G: In fact, redemption cannot be without the help of grace and recognition of sin/weakness.  But "faith alone" is one of the trickily distorted parts in the Bible! 
             
            When one looks into the history of Christianity, one learns that it was important for the original followers of Jesus to work on a personal spiritual development, in order for them to experience the living truth, instead of just believing blindly!  The original Christians were healers and helpers to others.  Though they lived in a community, they were not allowed to form any spiritual organization nor did they try to convert others. 
             
            We must understand that as time went, a conflict was gradually built up between Christians who wanted a strong organization to protect themselves from the martyr and Christians who wanted to keep to the original teaching in spite of all the suffering.  
             
            Later because of the political benifits toward Rome, the emporer Constantin who was worried about the dying Roman religion (religion = people power), decided to take up the rapidly growing organized Christian church into the State.  A system was built to fortify the power of this new religion/people power of the state.  With the dogma of just faith without wisdom/knowlege, the authority of the State/Church could easily take over the authority of the individual.  The Church teaching was suppressed, whereas the Church was helped against the original Christians who were against organization and against other doings of the church.  In this conflict, the original party lost ground and lost also many of their lives!  Many Christians today remain a perfect citizen for Emporer Constantin!
             
             
            Rudolf Steiner taught that knowledge of oneself and the development of one's ego will cause one to find one's godhood/divinity.
             
            G: When you talk of the development of the ego, you should understand firstly what is Steiner's definition of the ego.
             
             
            7.
            The Bible says that God's people - those who have been saved by grace through faith - will gain eternal life and live with Christ forever in heaven. Those who reject the gospel of Christ will be tormented day and night, forever and ever, in hell.
             
            Rudolf Steiner taught a doctrine similar to purgatory - the heretical teaching of Roman Catholicism.
             
            G: Have you noticed that we are living in a purgatory, having to fight or to suffer all the time?
             
             
            And he taught reincarnation which is nowhere to be found in God's word.
             
            G: There are quite a few places in the Bible where the thought of reincarnation have not been riped off completely.  Matt.17 speaks clearly that:  Elia truly came before Jesus Christ, that people did not recognize him and mistreated him ....  The deciples understood that the mistreated one was John whom Jesus was talking about!  If the church-goers knew that they would come again on earth, it would not have been so important for them to cling onto the Church and be burried by the church, like buying insurance for entering paradise.
             
             
            The conclusion of the matter is that you cannot be a Christian and believe the false teachings of Rudolf Steiner. Steiner's teachings contradict the sound doctrines of the Bible. You cannot serve two masters (Matt. 6:24).
             
            G: You are gravely mistaken!  "One cannot serve two masters" is understood so consequently in anthroposophy, that very few church Christian may be able to follow!
             
            My conversation with you will stop soon!
          • Ghamin
            Dear Michael, Elohim is a plural Hebrew word. Please read Gen. 1:26! We are created according to THEIR image, which must not imply many gods but the Father
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 3, 2002
              Dear Michael,

              Elohim is a plural Hebrew word.  Please read Gen. 1:26!  We are created according to THEIR image, which must not imply many gods but the Father God and Mother God, the universal masculin and faminine aspects of Creation.  Here shows another distortion of the bible!

              Ghamin


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Michael Meiring
              To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 2:52 AM
              Subject: [anthroposophy] Att: Elaine


              Dear Elaine,

              You wrote:

              > You do not, as far as I can see, consider the many problems and issues of
              translation and cultural context for the Bible. For example, in Genesis 1:1,
              "God" is the English version, but the Hebrew is "The Eloihim", which just by
              itself opens up a whole other territory of understanding, and speaks to your
              notion of "God."

              The Hebrew is elohim, which is translated "God" because the verb is
              singular.

              Obviously you have not studied biblical languages.

              Michael.
            • Ghamin
              G: Can you please tell us what is your intension in this pagan world of anthroposophy list? It looks as if you were coming into someone s house whose door
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 3, 2002
                G: Can you please tell us what is your intension in this pagan world of "anthroposophy" list?  It looks as if you were coming into someone's house whose door happens to be open, and slap everyone's face who says in a gentle way that he does not wish to buy from you.
                 
                 
                Michael wrote:
                I am not a Roman Catholic. In fact, I believe that Roman Catholicism is not a Christian church. But neither is Anthroposophy a Christian worldview.
                 
                The "dead intuitions", "unworked ideas", etc., came through Rudolf Steiner who rejected the authority and sufficiency of God's word.
                 
              • Br. Ron
                ... G: Can you please tell us what is your intension in this pagan world of anthroposophy list? It looks as if you were coming into someone s house whose
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 3, 2002


                      >Michael wrote:
                     > I am not a Roman Catholic. In fact, I believe that Roman Catholicism
                     > is not a Christian church. But neither is Anthroposophy a Christian worldview.

                     
                  >The "dead intuitions", "unworked ideas", etc., came through Rudolf Steiner
                      >who rejected the authority and sufficiency of God's word.
                   
                      G: Can you please tell us what is your intension in this pagan world of
                      "anthroposophy" list?  It looks as if you were coming into someone's
                      house whose door happens to be open, and slap everyone's face
                      who says in a gentle way that he does not wish to buy from you.




                  Ghamin, I want to express my amazement and appreciation
                  at your calm patience with Michael. You no doubt would
                  make an excellent teacher in a head-start program (or even
                  a loving nurse or doctor at a mental institution)
                   
                  I am trying hard to develop these characteristics in myself
                  and am making at least 'some' progress.... however slow.
                   
                  I know it seems like I'm mean to this poor guy, but heck,
                  I have at least learned to be in a large white room of
                  shuffling bathrobes without strangling some wild eyed
                  bloke who walks up and crams a crayon into my forehead.
                   
                  Keep up good work. This debate with fundamentalism is good
                  to highlight what we are growing toward.... and especially,
                  what we are growing FROM!
                   
                  Br. Ron
                   
                   
                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  ghamin@ctimail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 3, 2002
                    ghamin@... writes:
                    << Dear Michael,
                    Elohim is a plural Hebrew word. Please read Gen. 1:26! We are created
                    according to THEIR image, which must not imply many gods but the Father God
                    and Mother God, the universal masculine and faminine aspects of Creation.
                    Here shows another distortion of the bible!
                    Ghamin
                    >>
                    *******Yes, when the scripture says "Thou shalt have no other gods before
                    me", the word translated as "gods" is "elohim". The same word is used in the
                    opening line of Genesis, "Bereshith barah elohim...." which thus should be
                    translated as "In the beginning the Gods created...." This is why they speak
                    amongst themselves in Genesis, saying "Behold, the man is become as one of
                    us" and "Let us go down and confound their language..."

                    However, a human being must think about Holy Scripture to begin to understand
                    such things. Those who refuse to think about them are not open to
                    conversation.

                    As we know from spiritual science, the creative gods were a plurality, and
                    the god Jahve was one of them who later became the particular god of the
                    Hebrew tribe. In the Bible the word Elohim is first used, then Adonai, then
                    YHVH, the Tetragrammaton. Each signifies a different level of the divine.
                    (The word "Jehovah", BTW, is a bastardization, the result of some guy about
                    150 years ago taking the vowels from Adonai and putting them in the
                    consonants for YHVH, whose vowel points were never written with it, because
                    the sacred Name was only spoken once a year by the rabbis in the Holy of
                    Holies, so we don't know how it was really pronounced.) This is the only way
                    to make sense of an allegedly-universal god siding with Joshua's tribe and
                    ordering them to massacre other tribes, as Mark Twain reflected on over a
                    century ago in his "Letters From The Earth".

                    As the Clarence Darrow character says in "Inherit The Wind", "The Bible is a
                    Good Book; but it is not the only book". The reason why we have the freedom
                    to think for ourselves and decide what Scripture means is because we rejected
                    the intolerant theocracy of Rome, which allowed no such freedom---and
                    imitations of it still do not.

                    Starman
                  • Ghamin
                    Michael wrote to Br. Ron: Why haven t you replied to my answers below? You seem to be a bit stuck for words, no?! Dear Michael, Once again, you have not
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 5, 2002
                      Michael wrote to Br. Ron:
                       
                      Why haven't you replied to my answers below? You seem to be a bit stuck for words, no?!
                       
                       
                      Dear Michael,
                       
                      Once again, you have not answered my questions and questions of several others!  Just be fair! 
                       
                      Is it not a waste of time to speak to anything that cannot receive?
                       
                      Ghamin
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