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Att: Ghamin

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  • Michael Meiring
    Dear Ghamin, ... The following passages: a.. The LORD saw how great man s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Dear Ghamin,
       
      You wrote:
       
      > Where is this to be found in the bible that we are born with a sinful nature?
       
      The following passages:
       
      • The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. (Gen. 6:5-6)

      • Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5)

      • Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (Ps. 58:3)

      • Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. (Job 14:1)

      • This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. (Ecc. 9:3)

      • What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.' (Mk. 7:20-23)

      • What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Rom. 3:9-12)

      • Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned... Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Rom. 5:12, 18)

      • As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins. (Eph. 2:1)

       
       
      > I thought God created the world and saw that it was "Good".  He also made the human being after His own image.  So now are you saying that God our Father, is of a sinful nature?
       
      No, I never said that God has a sinful nature. On the contrary, I have stipulated in my posts that God is perfect, without sin.
       
      Yes, when God created the world He saw that it was good (Gen. 1:31). But that was before man fell into sin (Gen. 3). Afterwards, God "saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time" (Gen. 6:5). After the Fall, the image of God in man was damaged.
       
      We are made in the image of God, but it is, nevertheless, a damaged image. We no longer possess righteousness, holiness and knowledge. Since the Fall, no man lives righteously (Rom. 3:9-12). Everyone gratifies the cravings of their sinful nature (Eph. 2:3). And although everyone has an innate knowledge that God exists, they worship idols (Rom. 1:21-23). The Bible says, we are all born in sin (Ps. 51:5).
       
      The good news is that, through believing (having faith) in Jesus Christ, the image of God in man can be restored. If we acknowledge our sinfulness and believe in the gospel of God, we will be "renewed in knowledge" (Col. 3:10), and "to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24).
       
      Michael.
    • Ghamin
      Dear Michael, Thank you for taking the trouble of finding all the following excerpts about being born with sin. I am sorry that I was not clear enough, for my
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 3, 2002
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        Dear Michael,
         
        Thank you for taking the trouble of finding all the following excerpts about being born with sin.  I am sorry that I was not clear enough, for my question was about the original birth of man, whether it was with or without sin.   I see that we do agree on this point that man became wicked later.  May I ask a few more questions:
         
         
        You wrote:

        • Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5)
        G: Why do you think man is sinful at birth?  If it is because of his father's sin that he is sinful, it does not make sense if God should be righteous!
         

        • Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (Ps. 58:3)
        G:  If you or I was speaking of lies already in the womb, when and where do you think that you or I started to learn to tell lies?  Please do not tell me that it is because of my father's lying, because I had not seen my father yet.
         

        • Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned... Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Rom. 5:12, 18)
        G:  Please tell me precisely what kind of sin it is that can make all men become sinful because of one man's sin.  I believe that the Bible should be telling things that make sense.
         
      • Michael Meiring
        Dear Ghamin, ... God created Adam perfectly (Gen. 1:31). But Adam, out of his own free will, disobeyed God s command (Gen. 3:6 cf. Gen. 2:16-17). Sin entered
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 3, 2002
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          Dear Ghamin,
           
          You asked:
           
          > Why do you think man is sinful at birth? If it is because of his father's sin that he is sinful, it does not make sense if God should be righteous! ... Please tell me precisely what kind of sin it is that can make all men become sinful because of one man's sin.  I believe that the Bible should be telling things that make sense.
           
          God created Adam perfectly (Gen. 1:31). But Adam, out of his own free will, disobeyed God's command (Gen. 3:6 cf. Gen. 2:16-17). Sin entered the world, and through Adam's corruption of himself, sin was transmitted to his posterity (Rom. 5:12). The apostle Paul said, "For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Jesus Christ] the many will be made righteous" (Rom. 5:19). Adam's sin brought condemnation, but Christ's righteousness brings salvation.
           
          Therefore, God is not accountable for the sin of men and women. When we are conceived in the womb we inherit the sinful Adamic nature (Ps. 51:5; Eph. 2:1, 3), but through the Lord Jesus Christ many will be "born again", i.e. born by the Spirit of God (Jn. 3:3-5).
           
           
          > If you or I was speaking of lies already in the womb, when and where do you think that you or I started to learn to tell lies?  Please do not tell me that it is because of my father's lying, because I had not seen my father yet.
           
          We never learnt to lie. We lie because it is in our nature to do so. The Bible says that we gratified "the cravings of our sinful nature" (Eph. 2:3).
           
          Michael.
        • eurythmy
          Dear Michael, You say and it gives me hope:but through the Lord Jesus Christ many will be born again , i.e. born by the Spirit of God (Jn. 3:3-5).When do you
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 3, 2002
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            Dear Michael,
            You say and it gives me hope:but through the Lord Jesus Christ many will be "born again", i.e. born by the Spirit of God (Jn. 3:3-5).When do you think that can happen, does one has to wait until one is dead? or can it happens while one is living?
            Thanks for an answer.
            Franky
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:48 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Att: Ghamin

            Dear Ghamin,
             
            You asked:
             
            > Why do you think man is sinful at birth? If it is because of his father's sin that he is sinful, it does not make sense if God should be righteous! ... Please tell me precisely what kind of sin it is that can make all men become sinful because of one man's sin.  I believe that the Bible should be telling things that make sense.
             
            God created Adam perfectly (Gen. 1:31). But Adam, out of his own free will, disobeyed God's command (Gen. 3:6 cf. Gen. 2:16-17). Sin entered the world, and through Adam's corruption of himself, sin was transmitted to his posterity (Rom. 5:12). The apostle Paul said, "For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Jesus Christ] the many will be made righteous" (Rom. 5:19). Adam's sin brought condemnation, but Christ's righteousness brings salvation.
             
            Therefore, God is not accountable for the sin of men and women. When we are conceived in the womb we inherit the sinful Adamic nature (Ps. 51:5; Eph. 2:1, 3), but through the Lord Jesus Christ many will be "born again", i.e. born by the Spirit of God (Jn. 3:3-5).
             
             
          • Michael Meiring
            Dear Ghamin, ... G: God and god are not the same god. The word god implys certain being on a different plan. When gods are mentioned, the implication is
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 7, 2002
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              Dear Ghamin,
               
              You wrote:
               
              > 1.
              G: God and god are not the same god.  The word god implys certain being on a different plan.  When "gods" are mentioned, the implication is not exactly the same as the One God.  The belief of "God is One" (and All-embracing) is respected in many religions.  But the Church changed it into there is only one God, namely "mine"!
               
              The Bible says that there is only ONE God, and He is the LORD:
               
              "Declares the LORD, Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." (Is. 43:10)
               
               
              > 2.
              G: Can you please tell me the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God?
               
              They refer to the two natures of the Lord Jesus Christ: He is fully / very God ("the Son of God"), fully / very Man ("the Son of Man"); these two distinct natures in one Person:
               
              "Christ Jesus being in very nature God ... made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man." (Phil. 2:5-8)
               
               
              > 3.
              G: How can human being bear the image of God if without his divine nature, distorted or non-distorted?
               
              God's word tells us that to be made in the image of God means that we reflect the likeness of God in: (1) knowledge, (2) righteousness, and (3) holiness (Gen. 1:26 cf. Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). Nothing is said in the Bible about man having a divine nature/godhood.
               
               
              > 4.
              G: The Bible never said that the image of God, the all good, was lifted off from the human being.
               
              Before the Fall of Adam, God looked down on man and saw that everything which "he had made was very good" (Gen. 1:31). After the Fall and the entrance of sin into the world (Rom. 5:12), God looked down on man and saw "how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time" (Gen. 6:5).
               
               
              > 5.
              G: Steiner did not deny the above saying [biblical atonement of Jesus Christ].  I think you are a little confused here.
               
              If Steiner denied the inherent sinfulness of humankind, then he denied the atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross for sin. No one who believes that man is inherently good understands what happened at the cross.
               
               
              >6.
              G: In fact, redemption cannot be without the help of grace and recognition of sin/weakness.  But "faith alone" is one of the trickily distorted parts in the Bible!
               
              Justification by faith alone is biblical. The apostle Paul wrote: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law" (Rom. 3:28).
               
              It is impossible for a human being, who is "dead in sin" (Eph. 2:1), to make himself alive in Christ. The gift of faith does not come from within us, but it is a "gift from God" (Eph. 2:8). When a sinner's spiritual eyes are opened by the Lord, he repents and turns to Christ in faith. At that moment, the sinner is justified before God through the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 3:21-24).
               
              Michael.
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