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Re: [anthroposophy] Theory of Knowledge question

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  • Joel Wendt
    Derar Carol I ve stuck something in below in [brackets]. warm regards, joel ... [I don t know what Steiner actually thought about this - can we have
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 1, 2002
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      Derar Carol

      I've stuck something in below in [brackets].

      warm regards,
      joel

      Carol wrote:
      >
      > so this is a question which comes up for me very often
      > when reading Steiner, especially PoF and GTK. I'll
      > just paste on what I posted to the other list because,
      > who knows, perhaps Joel is lurking around and wants to
      > pipe in...
      >
      > .........
      >
      > I keep banging into the same question whenever I read
      > Steiner speak about the world we come up against
      > before we bring our concepts to it.
      >
      > Look at the opening sentences of Chapter 8...
      >
      > "...The world faces man as a multiplicity, as a mass
      > of separate details. One of these separate things,
      > one entity among others, is man himself. This aspect
      > of the world we simply call the given, and inasmuch as
      > we do not evolve it by conscious activity, but just
      > find it, we call it percept..."
      >
      > Does Steiner think that we ever come across the world
      > absent of concepts? I always ask whether this is a
      > thought experiment intended to help locate,
      > artifically (as in Truth and Knowledge), the division
      > between our activity of thinking and the percepts we
      > work with, or is it an actual observation which we can
      > make? If I just open my eyes and still my thoughts is
      > that the world of only percepts which he is talking
      > about?

      [I don't know what Steiner actually thought about this - can we have
      conceptless percepts. I do know we can have perceptless concepts (such
      as the idea of an angel, but no experience of an angel). One study
      group I was in on Theory of Knowledge had us work with trying to have a
      pure percept, but the leader only suggested this was as you imagine, an
      exercise to get us to see the "problem" so to speak. Basically I think
      we all need to just trust our own way of working this stuff out, because
      the faculty of discernment grows just as any other latent talent will
      grow. So keep up the good work, think for yourself and wonder at it
      all.]

      >
    • jeff auen
      I continue to think this movie would stand up to anything now produced and if watched with a sense of historcial openness, it has the unique ability to depict
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 1, 2002
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        I continue to think this movie would stand up to anything now produced and if watched with a sense of historcial openness, it has the unique ability to depict and communciate the times. The use of a a hidden Jesus figure was brillant and allows the imagination to soar around the critical events.
         
        jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 6:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

        Jeff,
         
        BEN HUR:
        I just saw this (part of it anyway) on Christmas day. Though this movie was done some 40 years ago, I think that in many ways it is still a classic. One thing I noticed throughout the entire movie is the way Christ is depicted. Notice that you never see His face nor do you ever hear Him speak in the movie. The movie mirrors the whole Christ incarnation in that the Roman Empire dominates the movie (as it dominated world attention during that time while the incarnation of Christ went relatively unnoticed) until the very end and that very little attention is placed on the Christ until the final scenes. Even the very last scene before the credits tells a story. In an early sunfilled morning we see upon a hill three crosses standing. The cross in the middle has a white garment atop it. Then at the foot of the hill we see a shepherd (at a distance) walking  into the picture leading a flock of sheep.
         
        Rick Distasi
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jeff auen
        Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 7:15 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

        This sounds correct. But I still want to find the passage I recall from Luke to help clarify it for myself. Thanks. One can imagine how "bright" this astral and etheric Presence must have appeared to those who could "see" it.
         
         By the way, nearly every year I rent the movie Ben Hur, a Tale of Christ. Inspite of some Hollywood idealism, it is truly  a seasonable joy to watch especially the short but reverent depiction of the last days of Christ and the Resurrrection. Very well done and moving. Highly recommended for many reasons.
         
        Jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 10:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

        Jeff,
         
        It was "the Host of Angels" (Luke Gospel) that refers to the presence of the astral body and spirit of Buddha. I think that Steiner gives a different translation than what is normally translated as "the Host of Angels" but I don't recall exactly how he does translate it.
         
        I think that esoterically the "STAR" is certainly a reference to the "SPIRIT" (EGO-I AM) of Zarathustra (again who's name itself means 'radiant star'). If this star/planet conjunction were so prominent as many people try to explain this passage in the Gospel then I would have to ask them why did Herod have to inquire about it and why did he have to ask the Magi if they would report back to him and tell him where the star and child could be found. 
         
        Another passage gives us an even better indication that this was not any cosmic planetary conjunction but rather it was a Spirit that went before them. In Matthew 2:8 we read:
         
        "And behold, the STAR that they had seen in the East (the "East" is often a veiled expression for the spirit world) ___WENT BEFORE THEM___ UNTIL IT CAME AND STOOD OVER THE PLACE WHERE THE CHILD WAS."
         
        Clearly here the Gospel is not making any reference to any planetary conjunction. Instead, it refers to something that is _PRIVATELY guiding them_ to the exact location of the child. ("And entering the house, they found the child with Mary his mother." Matthew 2:11) 
         
        Rick Distasi
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jeff auen
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

        Umm. I am fairly certain that in the Gospel of St. Luke it was the Buddha's enhanced astral body that was present and about to be united with the soul of the Nathan Jesus. I will go back and do some homework.
         
        And it could also be as you say in addition. The "Star" is a symbol of Zoroastrianism and this too makes sense. I can only imagine also that the enormous spiritual activity over this vicinity involving many glorious Beings, known and unknown. Anyone with the slightest clairvoyance would be able to follow the energies to this location.Are we saying, maybe, that one birth description is found in Matthew and another event in Luke (Nathan)??
         
        Maybe others can add to this (Paullina).
         
         
        Jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 1:17 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

         
         
        Kees and Jeff,
         
        The 'STAR' was the spirit of Zarathustra. The Matthew Gospel gives the account of the nativity of Zarathustra. His name means 'radiant star'. The wise men were of course 'initiates'. There are some who say that the three wise men were past students of Zarathustra in earlier incarnations. They were Daniel, Pythagoras and the Persian King Cyrus who then had reincarnated as Magi. They were initiates of what I believe Steiner calls the northern path or the occultist path; the path that perceives spirit cosmically. The shepherds of the Luke Gospel were initiates of the 'inner' path or the southern path. I would argue that the so-called shepherds of the Luke Gospel may not have been shepherds literally but that this was a "veiled expression" for initiates of the inner path and their students (flock). They were witnesses to the nativity of the ADAM soul. It was the entelechy of Buddha that imbued the astral body of the Luke Jesus/ADAM soul.
         
        Rick Distasi
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jeff auen
        Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 10:02 AM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] The Star

        In esotericism, this light was not a planet or star but an astral, spiritual phemomena sometimes attributed to the Buddha overshadowing the birth location and pre-birth activity of Jesus. It seems our three wise men knew clearly where to go and when to get there by tradition, spiritual guidance, and astronomy.
         
        Jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 3:04 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Space Update

        Hello,
        I ask myself concerning below. If the betlehem star was a physical light (which i do not believe) how can on earth 3 men follow this light to a little town? imagine the round great earth, far above a moving light, everybody on that halfround can see that light and can follow it from its own position, but knowing GPS today, how could it be possible to come exact in Betlehem, if you are not before in a straight line in the line of the movement which is exact above you?
        greetings kees
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:16 PM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] Space Update
         
        * Was Christmas star a double eclipse of Jupiter?
        > WAS CHRISTMAS STAR A DOUBLE ECLIPSE OF JUPITER?

        A U.S. astronomer said he has uncovered the first reference to
        the star of Bethlehem outside the Bible, in the 4th-century
        writings of a Christian convert who wanted to hide the
        astrological roots of the celestial phenomenon.

        Many scholars have suggested that the Biblical light was a
        comet or supernova. But after finding a star map on an old
        Roman coin, a former Rutgers University researcher decided to
        search for another explanation.

        The unconventional astronomer has gained the respect of notable
        Biblical historians.
        ... http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/12/27/star.coverup/index.html



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      • Lil Ole Miss
        I agree, Jeff, and deeply appreciated the required Ben Hur while spending four years as half of the Latin class and afterwards from an Anthroposophical
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 1, 2002
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          I agree, Jeff, and deeply appreciated the required "Ben Hur" while spending four years as half of the Latin class and afterwards from an Anthroposophical viewpoint. Perhaps it, as "The Robe" and others did, even had an influence upon me toward Anthro. These came to me at the time via books, rather than the movies which I saw later on.
           
          Sheila

          I continue to think this movie would stand up to anything now produced and if watched with a sense of historcial openness, it has the unique ability to depict and communciate the times. The use of a a hidden Jesus figure was brillant and allows the imagination to soar around the critical events.
           
          jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 6:46 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

          Jeff,
           
          BEN HUR:
          I just saw this (part of it anyway) on Christmas day. Though this movie was done some 40 years ago, I think that in many ways it is still a classic. One thing I noticed throughout the entire movie is the way Christ is depicted. Notice that you never see His face nor do you ever hear Him speak in the movie. The movie mirrors the whole Christ incarnation in that the Roman Empire dominates the movie (as it dominated world attention during that time while the incarnation of Christ went relatively unnoticed) until the very end and that very little attention is placed on the Christ until the final scenes. Even the very last scene before the credits tells a story. In an early sunfilled morning we see upon a hill three crosses standing. The cross in the middle has a white garment atop it. Then at the foot of the hill we see a shepherd (at a distance) walking  into the picture leading a flock of sheep.
           
          Rick Distasi
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jeff auen
          Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 7:15 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

          This sounds correct. But I still want to find the passage I recall from Luke to help clarify it for myself. Thanks. One can imagine how "bright" this astral and etheric Presence must have appeared to those who could "see" it.
           
           By the way, nearly every year I rent the movie Ben Hur, a Tale of Christ. Inspite of some Hollywood idealism, it is truly  a seasonable joy to watch especially the short but reverent depiction of the last days of Christ and the Resurrrection. Very well done and moving. Highly recommended for many reasons.
           
          Jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 10:06 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

          Jeff,
           
          It was "the Host of Angels" (Luke Gospel) that refers to the presence of the astral body and spirit of Buddha. I think that Steiner gives a different translation than what is normally translated as "the Host of Angels" but I don't recall exactly how he does translate it.
           
          I think that esoterically the "STAR" is certainly a reference to the "SPIRIT" (EGO-I AM) of Zarathustra (again who's name itself means 'radiant star'). If this star/planet conjunction were so prominent as many people try to explain this passage in the Gospel then I would have to ask them why did Herod have to inquire about it and why did he have to ask the Magi if they would report back to him and tell him where the star and child could be found. 
           
          Another passage gives us an even better indication that this was not any cosmic planetary conjunction but rather it was a Spirit that went before them. In Matthew 2:8 we read:
           
          "And behold, the STAR that they had seen in the East (the "East" is often a veiled expression for the spirit world) ___WENT BEFORE THEM___ UNTIL IT CAME AND STOOD OVER THE PLACE WHERE THE CHILD WAS."
           
          Clearly here the Gospel is not making any reference to any planetary conjunction. Instead, it refers to something that is _PRIVATELY guiding them_ to the exact location of the child. ("And entering the house, they found the child with Mary his mother." Matthew 2:11) 
           
          Rick Distasi
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jeff auen
          Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:38 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

          Umm. I am fairly certain that in the Gospel of St. Luke it was the Buddha's enhanced astral body that was present and about to be united with the soul of the Nathan Jesus. I will go back and do some homework.
           
          And it could also be as you say in addition. The "Star" is a symbol of Zoroastrianism and this too makes sense. I can only imagine also that the enormous spiritual activity over this vicinity involving many glorious Beings, known and unknown. Anyone with the slightest clairvoyance would be able to follow the energies to this location.Are we saying, maybe, that one birth description is found in Matthew and another event in Luke (Nathan)??
           
          Maybe others can add to this (Paullina).
           
           
          Jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 1:17 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] The Star

           
           
          Kees and Jeff,
           
          The 'STAR' was the spirit of Zarathustra. The Matthew Gospel gives the account of the nativity of Zarathustra. His name means 'radiant star'. The wise men were of course 'initiates'. There are some who say that the three wise men were past students of Zarathustra in earlier incarnations. They were Daniel, Pythagoras and the Persian King Cyrus who then had reincarnated as Magi. They were initiates of what I believe Steiner calls the northern path or the occultist path; the path that perceives spirit cosmically. The shepherds of the Luke Gospel were initiates of the 'inner' path or the southern path. I would argue that the so-called shepherds of the Luke Gospel may not have been shepherds literally but that this was a "veiled expression" for initiates of the inner path and their students (flock). They were witnesses to the nativity of the ADAM soul. It was the entelechy of Buddha that imbued the astral body of the Luke Jesus/ADAM soul.
           
          Rick Distasi
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jeff auen
          Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 10:02 AM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] The Star

          In esotericism, this light was not a planet or star but an astral, spiritual phemomena sometimes attributed to the Buddha overshadowing the birth location and pre-birth activity of Jesus. It seems our three wise men knew clearly where to go and when to get there by tradition, spiritual guidance, and astronomy.
           
          Jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 3:04 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Space Update

          Hello,
          I ask myself concerning below. If the betlehem star was a physical light (which i do not believe) how can on earth 3 men follow this light to a little town? imagine the round great earth, far above a moving light, everybody on that halfround can see that light and can follow it from its own position, but knowing GPS today, how could it be possible to come exact in Betlehem, if you are not before in a straight line in the line of the movement which is exact above you?
          greetings kees
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:16 PM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] Space Update
           
          * Was Christmas star a double eclipse of Jupiter?
          > WAS CHRISTMAS STAR A DOUBLE ECLIPSE OF JUPITER?

          A U.S. astronomer said he has uncovered the first reference to
          the star of Bethlehem outside the Bible, in the 4th-century
          writings of a Christian convert who wanted to hide the
          astrological roots of the celestial phenomenon.

          Many scholars have suggested that the Biblical light was a
          comet or supernova. But after finding a star map on an old
          Roman coin, a former Rutgers University researcher decided to
          search for another explanation.

          The unconventional astronomer has gained the respect of notable
          Biblical historians.
          ... http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/12/27/star.coverup/index.html


        • Carol
          ... That helps, thanks. This sort of effort makes me think of those darned boundry experiences which Steiner talks about in various places. They sound like
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Joel said:

            > [I don't know what Steiner actually thought about this -
            > can we have
            > conceptless percepts. I do know we can have perceptless
            > concepts (such
            > as the idea of an angel, but no experience of an angel).
            > One study
            > group I was in on Theory of Knowledge had us work with
            > trying to have a
            > pure percept, but the leader only suggested this was as you
            > imagine, an
            > exercise to get us to see the "problem" so to speak.
            > Basically I think
            > we all need to just trust our own way of working this stuff
            > out, because
            > the faculty of discernment grows just as any other latent
            > talent will
            > grow. So keep up the good work, think for yourself and
            > wonder at it
            > all.]


            That helps, thanks. This sort of effort makes me think of
            those darned 'boundry experiences' which Steiner talks about
            in various places. They sound like experience which can not
            be 'had' but which must be attempted to, as you say, exercise
            your faculty of discernment.

            Carol

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