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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • jeff auen
    Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
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      Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
       
      • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
      • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
      • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
      • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
      • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
      • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
      • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
      That's all folks.
       
      Jeff Auen
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

      >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

      ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


      >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

         'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
         So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


      >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


      *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


      >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

      *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


      >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
      Jeff Auen

      *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
      'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

      Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

      Starman

      ----- Original Message -----


      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

      Starman

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: >utopia_planetia@...
      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


      Hi Jeff,

      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
      present culture.

      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


      >
      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
      >
      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
      there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
      ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
      >   etheric in nature.
      >
      >
      >
      >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      >   >
      >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
      >   >
      >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
      >   >
      >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
      spiritual
      >   beings, both
      >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
      >   alternately, the
      >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
      >   using
      >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
      >   Ahrimanic
      >   > deception..... >>
      >   >
      >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
      Cosmic
      >   Pulse of
      >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      pacbay@home.com writes:
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        pacbay@... writes:
        << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

        *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
        dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
        it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
        it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
        1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

        >>>My position.... is as follows:

        There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
        other physical planets outside of our solar system....

        *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
        that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
        meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
        very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
        physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
        repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
        that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
        the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
        and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



        >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
        and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
        These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
        identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

        *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
        articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
        here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
        photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
        physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
        far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
        from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
        photo of one attached).



        >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
        mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
        believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
        evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
        interact or be using each other)

        *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
        they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
        theoretical sources?


        >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
        as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

        *******Which no one here did.

        >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
        attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

        *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


        >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
        this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
        1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
        goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

        That's all folks.

        *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
        because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
        to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
        everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
        in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
        take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
        using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
        scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
        that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
        part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


        Starman


        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
        bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
        opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
        spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
        Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
        him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
        I recall.


        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
        possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
        points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
        and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
        you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
        twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
        mind that for now.



        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
        proponents, and psychic theorists...


        'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
        theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

        So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
        extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
        materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
        theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
        is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
        to us here.




        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
        there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
        characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
        'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
        that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
        something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
        (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
        accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
        middle category.



        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
        possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
        eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
        produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
        they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
        clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
        watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
        surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
        forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
        Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
        ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
        and then reappear', hmmm?



        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
        the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
        reality for many minutes at an event.<<


        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
        indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
        Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
        needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
        Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
        'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
        described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
        needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
        physics.


        Starman


        ----- Original Message -----

        From: >utopia_planetia@...

        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

        Hi Jeff,

        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

        present culture.

        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

        >

        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

        > etheric in nature.

        >


        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
        beings, both

        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
        alternately, the

        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
        using

        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

        > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

        > >

        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

        Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
          to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
          let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
          either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
          in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

          One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          pacbay@home.com writes:
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            pacbay@... writes:
            << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
            intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
            detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
            collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
            develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
            Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
            craft objects. >>

            *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
            so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
            pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
            these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
            they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
            lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
            Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


            >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
            and

            mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
            into

            believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

            evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

            interact or be using each other)

            *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

            they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

            theoretical sources?

            >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
            technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
            been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
            Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
            agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

            *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
            has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


            >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
            radiation effects affect they depart.


            *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
            do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
            what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


            >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
            and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

            *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
            PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
            with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
            years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
            as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
            of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
            Ahrimanic mythology.


            >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
            out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

            *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
            read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
            conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
            on the phenomena.


            >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
            hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
            the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

            *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
            sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
            NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
            Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
            what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
            PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
            whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
            that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
            that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
            "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
            science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
            view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


            >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
            inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
            50's.

            *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
            anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


            >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
            descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
            influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
            to say the least.

            ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
            Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
            and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
            look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
            Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
            by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
            really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
            Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
            Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
            how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

            This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
            think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
            past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
            indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
            are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
            fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
            not involved in working with it.

            Starman
          • jeff auen
            I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
              National UFO Clearing Center
              Bufora-British version of the above
              Ufoinfo
              Center for UFO Studies
              UFOs.about.com
              Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
               
              and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
               
              Jeff
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

              pacbay@... writes:
              <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
              intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
              detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
              collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
              develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
              Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
              craft objects.  >>

              *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
              so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
              pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
              these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
              they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
              lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
              Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
              and

                mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
              into

                believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                interact or be using each other)

                *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                theoretical sources?

              >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
              technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
              been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
              Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
              agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

              *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
              has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


              >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
              radiation effects affect they depart.


              *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
              do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
              what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


              >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
              and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

              *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
              PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
              with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
              years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
              as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
              of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
              Ahrimanic mythology.


              >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
              out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

              *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
              read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
              conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
              on the phenomena.


              >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
              hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
              the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

              *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
              sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
              NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
              Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
              what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
              PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
              whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
              that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
              that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
              "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
              science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
              view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


              >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
              inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
              50's.

              *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
              anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


              >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
              descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
              influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
              to say the least.

              ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
              Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
              and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
              look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
              Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
              by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
              really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
              Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
              Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
              how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                  This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
              think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
              past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
              indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
              are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
              fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
              not involved in working with it.

              Starman


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            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                This statement in the argument:

                Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                50's.

                Bradford writes;

                There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                gretings kees

                *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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