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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

      ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

      I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


      >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

      'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
      So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


      >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


      *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


      >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

      *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


      >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
      Jeff Auen

      *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
      'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

      Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

      Starman

      ----- Original Message -----


      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
      One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

      Starman

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: >utopia_planetia@...
      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


      Hi Jeff,

      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
      present culture.

      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


      >
      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
      >
      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
      there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
      ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
      > etheric in nature.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      > >
      > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
      > >
      > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
      > >
      > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
      spiritual
      > beings, both
      > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
      > alternately, the
      > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
      > using
      > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
      > Ahrimanic
      > > deception..... >>
      > >
      > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
      Cosmic
      > Pulse of
      > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
    • jeff auen
      Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
         
        • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
        • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
        • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
        • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
        • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
        • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
        • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
        That's all folks.
         
        Jeff Auen
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

          I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

           'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
           So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


        >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


        *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


        >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

        *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


        >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
        Jeff Auen

        *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
        'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

        Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

        Starman

        ----- Original Message -----


        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

        Starman

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: >utopia_planetia@...
        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


        Hi Jeff,

        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
        present culture.

        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


        >
        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
        >
        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
        there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
        >   etheric in nature.
        >
        >
        >
        >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        >   >
        >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
        >   >
        >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
        >   >
        >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
        spiritual
        >   beings, both
        >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
        >   alternately, the
        >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
        >   using
        >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
        >   Ahrimanic
        >   > deception..... >>
        >   >
        >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
        Cosmic
        >   Pulse of
        >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        pacbay@home.com writes:
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          pacbay@... writes:
          << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

          *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
          dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
          it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
          it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
          1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

          >>>My position.... is as follows:

          There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
          other physical planets outside of our solar system....

          *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
          that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
          meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
          very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
          physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
          repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
          that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
          the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
          and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



          >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
          and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
          These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
          identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

          *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
          articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
          here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
          photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
          physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
          far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
          from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
          photo of one attached).



          >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
          mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
          believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
          evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
          interact or be using each other)

          *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
          they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
          theoretical sources?


          >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
          as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

          *******Which no one here did.

          >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
          attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

          *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


          >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
          this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
          1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
          goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

          That's all folks.

          *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
          because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
          to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
          everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
          in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
          take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
          using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
          scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
          that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
          part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


          Starman


          >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
          bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


          ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
          opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
          spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
          Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
          him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
          I recall.


          I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
          possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
          points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
          and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
          you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
          twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
          mind that for now.



          >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
          proponents, and psychic theorists...


          'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
          theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

          So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
          extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
          materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
          theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
          is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
          to us here.




          >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
          there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
          characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


          *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
          'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
          that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
          something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
          (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
          accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
          middle category.



          >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
          possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
          eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



          *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
          produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
          they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



          >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
          clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
          watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
          surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
          forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
          Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



          ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
          ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
          and then reappear', hmmm?



          >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
          the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
          reality for many minutes at an event.<<


          *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



          >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
          indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


          *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
          Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
          needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
          Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
          'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
          described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
          needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
          physics.


          Starman


          ----- Original Message -----

          From: >utopia_planetia@...

          To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

          Hi Jeff,

          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

          present culture.

          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

          >

          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

          there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

          ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

          > etheric in nature.

          >


          > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

          > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

          > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
          beings, both

          > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
          alternately, the

          > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
          using

          > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

          > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

          > >

          > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

          Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
            to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
            let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
            either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
            in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

            One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            pacbay@home.com writes:
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              pacbay@... writes:
              << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
              intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
              detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
              collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
              develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
              Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
              craft objects. >>

              *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
              so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
              pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
              these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
              they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
              lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
              Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


              >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
              and

              mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
              into

              believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

              evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

              interact or be using each other)

              *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

              they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

              theoretical sources?

              >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
              technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
              been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
              Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
              agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

              *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
              has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


              >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
              radiation effects affect they depart.


              *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
              do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
              what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


              >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
              and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

              *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
              PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
              with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
              years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
              as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
              of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
              Ahrimanic mythology.


              >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
              out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

              *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
              read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
              conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
              on the phenomena.


              >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
              hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
              the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

              *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
              sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
              NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
              Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
              what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
              PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
              whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
              that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
              that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
              "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
              science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
              view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


              >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
              inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
              50's.

              *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
              anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


              >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
              descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
              influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
              to say the least.

              ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
              Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
              and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
              look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
              Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
              by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
              really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
              Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
              Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
              how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

              This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
              think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
              past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
              indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
              are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
              fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
              not involved in working with it.

              Starman
            • jeff auen
              I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                National UFO Clearing Center
                Bufora-British version of the above
                Ufoinfo
                Center for UFO Studies
                UFOs.about.com
                Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                 
                and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                 
                Jeff
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                pacbay@... writes:
                <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                craft objects.  >>

                *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                  >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                and

                  mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                into

                  believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                  evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                  interact or be using each other)

                  *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                  they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                  theoretical sources?

                >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                radiation effects affect they depart.


                *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                Ahrimanic mythology.


                >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                on the phenomena.


                >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                50's.

                *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                to say the least.

                ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                    This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                not involved in working with it.

                Starman


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              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  This statement in the argument:

                  Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                  inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                  50's.

                  Bradford writes;

                  There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                  research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                  k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                  perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                  gretings kees

                  *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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