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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • jeff auen
    I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
       
      Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
       
      Jeff Auen
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

      Starman

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: >utopia_planetia@...
      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


      Hi Jeff,

      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
      present culture.

      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

      To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
      previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
      Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
      I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
      life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
      Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
      reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
      arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
      until they were leveled(Occult Science).

      Marc

      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
      > Utopia  - name please.
      >
      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
      >
      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
      there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
      computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
      being next).
      >
      >
      > Jeff
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
      >   To: anthroposophy@y...
      >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
      >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
      >
      >
      >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
      >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
      and
      >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
      >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
      the
      >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
      >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
      for
      >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
      this
      >   info in the the aforementioned books).
      >
      >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
      >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
      >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
      >   diversity in appearence?
      >
      >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
      Have
      >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
      >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
      >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
      appearence is
      >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
      Luciferic
      >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
      all
      >   Luciferic influences.
      >
      >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
      >   etheric in nature.
      >
      >
      >
      >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      >   >
      >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
      >   >
      >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
      >   >
      >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
      spiritual
      >   beings, both
      >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
      >   alternately, the
      >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
      >   using
      >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
      >   Ahrimanic
      >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
      >   view to
      >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
      of
      >   other
      >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
      >   while perhaps
      >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
      to
      >   their
      >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
      ideas
      >   (or
      >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
      of
      >   UFOs
      >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
      >   point in time
      >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
      >   >
      >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
      Cosmic
      >   Pulse of
      >   > Life.
      >   >
      >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

        'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
        So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


        >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


        *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


        >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

        *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


        >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
        Jeff Auen

        *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
        'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

        Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

        Starman

        ----- Original Message -----


        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

        Starman

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: >utopia_planetia@...
        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


        Hi Jeff,

        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
        present culture.

        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


        >
        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
        >
        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
        > etheric in nature.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        > >
        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
        > >
        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
        > >
        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
        spiritual
        > beings, both
        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
        > alternately, the
        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
        > using
        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
        > Ahrimanic
        > > deception..... >>
        > >
        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
        Cosmic
        > Pulse of
        > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
      • jeff auen
        Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
           
          • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
          • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
          • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
          • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
          • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
          • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
          • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
          That's all folks.
           
          Jeff Auen
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

          >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

          ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

            I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


          >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

             'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
             So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


          >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


          *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


          >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

          *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


          >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
          Jeff Auen

          *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
          'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

          Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

          Starman

          ----- Original Message -----


          >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

          *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


          >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


          *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


          >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


          ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
              One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


          >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

          *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


          >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

          *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

          Starman

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: >utopia_planetia@...
          To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


          Hi Jeff,

          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
          present culture.

          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


          >
          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
          >
          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
          there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
          ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
          >   etheric in nature.
          >
          >
          >
          >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          >   >
          >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
          >   >
          >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
          >   >
          >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
          spiritual
          >   beings, both
          >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
          >   alternately, the
          >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
          >   using
          >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
          >   Ahrimanic
          >   > deception..... >>
          >   >
          >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
          Cosmic
          >   Pulse of
          >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          pacbay@home.com writes:
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            pacbay@... writes:
            << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

            *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
            dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
            it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
            it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
            1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

            >>>My position.... is as follows:

            There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
            other physical planets outside of our solar system....

            *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
            that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
            meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
            very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
            physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
            repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
            that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
            the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
            and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



            >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
            and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
            These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
            identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

            *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
            articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
            here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
            photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
            physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
            far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
            from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
            photo of one attached).



            >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
            mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
            believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
            evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
            interact or be using each other)

            *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
            they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
            theoretical sources?


            >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
            as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

            *******Which no one here did.

            >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
            attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

            *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


            >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
            this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
            1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
            goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

            That's all folks.

            *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
            because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
            to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
            everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
            in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
            take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
            using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
            scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
            that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
            part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


            Starman


            >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
            bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


            ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
            opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
            spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
            Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
            him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
            I recall.


            I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
            possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
            points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
            and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
            you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
            twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
            mind that for now.



            >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
            proponents, and psychic theorists...


            'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
            theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

            So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
            extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
            materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
            theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
            is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
            to us here.




            >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
            there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
            characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


            *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
            'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
            that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
            something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
            (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
            accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
            middle category.



            >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
            possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
            eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



            *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
            produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
            they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



            >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
            clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
            watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
            surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
            forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
            Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



            ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
            ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
            and then reappear', hmmm?



            >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
            the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
            reality for many minutes at an event.<<


            *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



            >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
            indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


            *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
            Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
            needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
            Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
            'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
            described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
            needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
            physics.


            Starman


            ----- Original Message -----

            From: >utopia_planetia@...

            To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

            Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

            Hi Jeff,

            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

            present culture.

            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

            >

            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

            there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

            ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

            > etheric in nature.

            >


            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
            beings, both

            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
            alternately, the

            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
            using

            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

            > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

            > >

            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

            Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
              to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
              let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
              either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
              in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

              One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              pacbay@home.com writes:
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                pacbay@... writes:
                << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                craft objects. >>

                *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                and

                mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                into

                believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                interact or be using each other)

                *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                theoretical sources?

                >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                radiation effects affect they depart.


                *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                Ahrimanic mythology.


                >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                on the phenomena.


                >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                50's.

                *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                to say the least.

                ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                not involved in working with it.

                Starman
              • jeff auen
                I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                  National UFO Clearing Center
                  Bufora-British version of the above
                  Ufoinfo
                  Center for UFO Studies
                  UFOs.about.com
                  Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                   
                  and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                   
                  Jeff
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                  pacbay@... writes:
                  <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                  intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                  detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                  collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                  develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                  Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                  craft objects.  >>

                  *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                  so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                  pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                  these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                  they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                  lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                  Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                    >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                  and

                    mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                  into

                    believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                    evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                    interact or be using each other)

                    *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                    they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                    theoretical sources?

                  >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                  technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                  been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                  Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                  agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                  *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                  has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                  >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                  radiation effects affect they depart.


                  *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                  do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                  what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                  >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                  and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                  *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                  PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                  with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                  years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                  as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                  of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                  Ahrimanic mythology.


                  >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                  out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                  *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                  read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                  conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                  on the phenomena.


                  >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                  hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                  the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                  *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                  sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                  NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                  Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                  what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                  PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                  whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                  that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                  that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                  "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                  science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                  view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                  >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                  inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                  50's.

                  *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                  anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                  >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                  descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                  influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                  to say the least.

                  ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                  Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                  and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                  look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                  Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                  by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                  really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                  Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                  Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                  how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                      This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                  think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                  past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                  indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                  are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                  fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                  not involved in working with it.

                  Starman


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                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                    This statement in the argument:

                    Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                    inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                    50's.

                    Bradford writes;

                    There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                    research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                    k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                    perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                    gretings kees

                    *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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