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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • Kees Kromme
    Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Marc, in this way!
      I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
      Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
      greetings kees
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

      Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
      Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
      Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
      epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
      Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
      planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
      other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
      info in the the aforementioned books).

      Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
      different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
      a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
      diversity in appearence?

      The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
      some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
      system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
      beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
      diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
      influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
      Luciferic influences.

      Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
      etheric in nature.



      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
      >
      > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
      >
      > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
      beings, both
      > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
      alternately, the
      > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
      using
      > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
      Ahrimanic
      > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
      view to
      > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
      other
      > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
      while perhaps
      > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
      their
      > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
      (or
      > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
      UFOs
      > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
      point in time
      > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
      >
      > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
      Pulse of
      > Life.
      >
      > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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    • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
      Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 10, 2001
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        Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
        my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
        adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
        read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
        part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

        Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
        used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
        in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
        with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
        better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
        also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
        crouched position. See:
        http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
        Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

        The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
        polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
        having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

        I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
        and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
        > Hi Marc, in this way!
        > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
        > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
        alien-ufo-questions.
        > greetings kees
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: utopia_planetia@h...
        > To: anthroposophy@y...
        > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
        > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
        >
        >
        > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
        > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
        and
        > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
        > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
        the
        > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
        > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
        for
        > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
        this
        > info in the the aforementioned books).
        >
        > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
        > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
        > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
        > diversity in appearence?
        >
        > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
        Have
        > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
        > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
        > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
        appearence is
        > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
        Luciferic
        > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
        all
        > Luciferic influences.
        >
        > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
        > etheric in nature.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        > >
        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
        > >
        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
        > >
        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
        spiritual
        > beings, both
        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
        > alternately, the
        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
        > using
        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
        > Ahrimanic
        > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
        > view to
        > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
        of
        > other
        > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
        > while perhaps
        > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
        to
        > their
        > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
        ideas
        > (or
        > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
        of
        > UFOs
        > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
        > point in time
        > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
        > >
        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
        Cosmic
        > Pulse of
        > > Life.
        > >
        > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
        >
        >
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      • jeff auen
        Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 12, 2001
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          Marc,
           
          Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
           
          jeff  
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

          Hi Jeff,

          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
          present culture.

          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

          To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
          previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
          Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
          I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
          life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
          Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
          reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
          arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
          until they were leveled(Occult Science).

          Marc

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
          > Utopia  - name please.
          >
          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
          >
          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
          there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
          computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
          being next).
          >
          >
          > Jeff
          >   ----- Original Message -----
          >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
          >   To: anthroposophy@y...
          >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
          >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
          >
          >
          >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
          >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
          and
          >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
          >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
          the
          >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
          >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
          for
          >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
          this
          >   info in the the aforementioned books).
          >
          >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
          >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
          >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
          >   diversity in appearence?
          >
          >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
          Have
          >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
          >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
          >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
          appearence is
          >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
          Luciferic
          >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
          all
          >   Luciferic influences.
          >
          >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
          >   etheric in nature.
          >
          >
          >
          >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          >   >
          >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
          >   >
          >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
          >   >
          >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
          spiritual
          >   beings, both
          >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
          >   alternately, the
          >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
          >   using
          >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
          >   Ahrimanic
          >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
          >   view to
          >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
          of
          >   other
          >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
          >   while perhaps
          >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
          to
          >   their
          >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
          ideas
          >   (or
          >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
          of
          >   UFOs
          >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
          >   point in time
          >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
          >   >
          >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
          Cosmic
          >   Pulse of
          >   > Life.
          >   >
          >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
          >
          >
          >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >               ADVERTISEMENT
          >             
          >       
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          >   http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
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        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

            *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


            >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


            *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


            >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


            ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


            >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

            *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


            >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

            *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

            Starman

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: >utopia_planetia@...
            To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


            Hi Jeff,

            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
            present culture.

            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

            To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
            previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
            Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
            I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
            life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
            Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
            reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
            arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
            until they were leveled(Occult Science).

            Marc

            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
            > Utopia - name please.
            >
            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
            >
            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
            there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
            computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
            being next).
            >
            >
            > Jeff
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: utopia_planetia@h...
            > To: anthroposophy@y...
            > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
            > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
            >
            >
            > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
            > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
            and
            > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
            > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
            the
            > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
            > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
            for
            > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
            this
            > info in the the aforementioned books).
            >
            > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
            > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
            > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
            > diversity in appearence?
            >
            > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
            Have
            > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
            > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
            > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
            appearence is
            > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
            Luciferic
            > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
            all
            > Luciferic influences.
            >
            > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
            > etheric in nature.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
            > >
            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
            > >
            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
            > >
            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
            spiritual
            > beings, both
            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
            > alternately, the
            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
            > using
            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
            > Ahrimanic
            > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
            > view to
            > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
            of
            > other
            > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
            > while perhaps
            > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
            to
            > their
            > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
            ideas
            > (or
            > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
            of
            > UFOs
            > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
            > point in time
            > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
            > >
            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
            Cosmic
            > Pulse of
            > > Life.
            > >
            > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
          • jeff auen
            I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
               
              Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
               
              Jeff Auen
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

              >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

              *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


              >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


              *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


              >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


              ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                  One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


              >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

              *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


              >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

              *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

              Starman

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: >utopia_planetia@...
              To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


              Hi Jeff,

              "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
              present culture.

              I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
              maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
              senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
              physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
              and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
              tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
              suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
              relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
              deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
              from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

              To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
              previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
              Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
              I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
              life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
              Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
              reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
              arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
              until they were leveled(Occult Science).

              Marc

              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
              > Utopia  - name please.
              >
              > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
              over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
              elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
              the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
              all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
              for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
              this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
              popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
              predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
              >
              > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
              is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
              materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
              state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
              chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
              vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
              influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
              there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
              ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
              achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
              all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
              light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
              different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
              true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
              computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
              being next).
              >
              >
              > Jeff
              >   ----- Original Message -----
              >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
              >   To: anthroposophy@y...
              >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
              >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
              >
              >
              >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
              >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
              and
              >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
              >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
              the
              >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
              >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
              for
              >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
              this
              >   info in the the aforementioned books).
              >
              >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
              >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
              >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
              >   diversity in appearence?
              >
              >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
              Have
              >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
              >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
              >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
              appearence is
              >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
              Luciferic
              >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
              all
              >   Luciferic influences.
              >
              >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
              >   etheric in nature.
              >
              >
              >
              >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              >   >
              >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
              >   >
              >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
              >   >
              >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
              spiritual
              >   beings, both
              >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
              >   alternately, the
              >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
              >   using
              >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
              >   Ahrimanic
              >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
              >   view to
              >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
              of
              >   other
              >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
              >   while perhaps
              >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
              to
              >   their
              >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
              ideas
              >   (or
              >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
              of
              >   UFOs
              >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
              >   point in time
              >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
              >   >
              >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
              Cosmic
              >   Pulse of
              >   > Life.
              >   >
              >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                Jeff Auen

                *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                Starman

                ----- Original Message -----


                >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                Starman

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: >utopia_planetia@...
                To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                Hi Jeff,

                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                present culture.

                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                >
                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                >
                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                > etheric in nature.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                > >
                > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                > >
                > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                > >
                > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                spiritual
                > beings, both
                > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                > alternately, the
                > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                > using
                > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                > Ahrimanic
                > > deception..... >>
                > >
                > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                Cosmic
                > Pulse of
                > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
              • jeff auen
                Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                   
                  • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                  • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                  • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                  • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                  • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                  • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                  • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                  That's all folks.
                   
                  Jeff Auen
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                  >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                  ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                    I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                  >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                     'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                     So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                  >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                  *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                  >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                  *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                  >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                  Jeff Auen

                  *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                  'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                  Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                  Starman

                  ----- Original Message -----


                  >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                  *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                  >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                  *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                  >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                  ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                      One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                  >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                  *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                  >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                  *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                  Starman

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: >utopia_planetia@...
                  To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                  Hi Jeff,

                  "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                  present culture.

                  I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                  maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                  senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                  physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                  and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                  tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                  suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                  relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                  deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                  from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                  >
                  > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                  over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                  elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                  the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                  all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                  for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                  this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                  popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                  predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                  >
                  > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                  is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                  materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                  state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                  chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                  vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                  influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                  there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                  ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                  achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                  all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                  light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                  different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                  true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                  ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                  >   etheric in nature.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                  >   >
                  >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                  >   >
                  >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                  >   >
                  >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                  spiritual
                  >   beings, both
                  >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                  >   alternately, the
                  >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                  >   using
                  >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                  >   Ahrimanic
                  >   > deception..... >>
                  >   >
                  >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                  Cosmic
                  >   Pulse of
                  >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  pacbay@home.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    pacbay@... writes:
                    << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                    *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                    dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                    it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                    it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                    1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                    >>>My position.... is as follows:

                    There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                    other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                    *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                    that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                    meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                    very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                    physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                    repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                    that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                    the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                    and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                    >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                    and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                    These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                    identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                    *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                    articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                    here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                    photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                    physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                    far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                    from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                    photo of one attached).



                    >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                    mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                    believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                    evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                    interact or be using each other)

                    *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                    they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                    theoretical sources?


                    >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                    as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                    *******Which no one here did.

                    >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                    attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                    *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                    >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                    this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                    1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                    goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                    That's all folks.

                    *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                    because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                    to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                    everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                    in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                    take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                    using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                    scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                    that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                    part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                    Starman


                    >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                    bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                    ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                    opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                    spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                    Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                    him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                    I recall.


                    I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                    possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                    points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                    and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                    you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                    twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                    mind that for now.



                    >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                    proponents, and psychic theorists...


                    'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                    theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                    So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                    extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                    materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                    theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                    is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                    to us here.




                    >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                    there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                    characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                    *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                    'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                    that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                    something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                    (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                    accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                    middle category.



                    >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                    possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                    eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                    *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                    produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                    they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                    >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                    clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                    watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                    surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                    forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                    Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                    ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                    One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                    ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                    and then reappear', hmmm?



                    >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                    the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                    reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                    *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                    >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                    indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                    *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                    Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                    needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                    Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                    'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                    described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                    needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                    physics.


                    Starman


                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: >utopia_planetia@...

                    To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                    Hi Jeff,

                    "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                    present culture.

                    I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                    maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                    senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                    physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                    and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                    tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                    suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                    relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                    deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                    from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                    > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                    over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                    elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                    the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                    all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                    for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                    this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                    popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                    predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                    >

                    > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                    is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                    materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                    state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                    chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                    vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                    influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                    there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                    ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                    achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                    all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                    light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                    different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                    true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                    ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                    > etheric in nature.

                    >


                    > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                    > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                    > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                    beings, both

                    > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                    alternately, the

                    > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                    using

                    > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                    > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                    > >

                    > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                    Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                      to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                      let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                      either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                      in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                      One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                      pacbay@home.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        pacbay@... writes:
                        << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                        intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                        detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                        collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                        develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                        Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                        craft objects. >>

                        *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                        so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                        pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                        these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                        they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                        lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                        Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                        >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                        and

                        mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                        into

                        believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                        evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                        interact or be using each other)

                        *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                        they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                        theoretical sources?

                        >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                        technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                        been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                        Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                        agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                        *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                        has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                        >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                        radiation effects affect they depart.


                        *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                        do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                        what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                        >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                        and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                        *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                        PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                        with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                        years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                        as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                        of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                        Ahrimanic mythology.


                        >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                        out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                        *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                        read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                        conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                        on the phenomena.


                        >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                        hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                        the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                        *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                        sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                        NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                        Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                        what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                        PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                        whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                        that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                        that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                        "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                        science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                        view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                        >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                        inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                        50's.

                        *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                        anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                        >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                        descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                        influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                        to say the least.

                        ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                        Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                        and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                        look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                        Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                        by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                        really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                        Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                        Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                        how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                        This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                        think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                        past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                        indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                        are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                        fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                        not involved in working with it.

                        Starman
                      • jeff auen
                        I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                          National UFO Clearing Center
                          Bufora-British version of the above
                          Ufoinfo
                          Center for UFO Studies
                          UFOs.about.com
                          Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                           
                          and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                           
                          Jeff
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                          pacbay@... writes:
                          <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                          intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                          detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                          collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                          develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                          Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                          craft objects.  >>

                          *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                          so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                          pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                          these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                          they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                          lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                          Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                            >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                          and

                            mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                          into

                            believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                            evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                            interact or be using each other)

                            *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                            they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                            theoretical sources?

                          >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                          technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                          been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                          Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                          agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                          *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                          has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                          >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                          radiation effects affect they depart.


                          *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                          do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                          what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                          >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                          and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                          *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                          PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                          with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                          years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                          as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                          of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                          Ahrimanic mythology.


                          >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                          out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                          *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                          read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                          conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                          on the phenomena.


                          >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                          hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                          the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                          *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                          sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                          NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                          Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                          what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                          PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                          whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                          that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                          that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                          "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                          science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                          view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                          >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                          inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                          50's.

                          *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                          anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                          >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                          descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                          influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                          to say the least.

                          ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                          Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                          and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                          look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                          Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                          by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                          really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                          Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                          Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                          how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                              This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                          think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                          past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                          indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                          are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                          fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                          not involved in working with it.

                          Starman


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                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                          This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                            This statement in the argument:

                            Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                            inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                            50's.

                            Bradford writes;

                            There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                            research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                            k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                            perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                            gretings kees

                            *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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