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Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
    Hi, my name is Marc. I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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      Hi, my name is Marc.

      I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the
      American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
      inhabitants. Steiner did also mention that French people (at least of
      his time) were in part the reincarnation of Indians.

      I think that the reuniting our our great planetary family will have
      to pass throught the reuniting of our great cosmic family too. We are
      from different origins so it seems, there are some of us on Saturn,
      Jupiter, Mars and probably Venus.

      Steiner spoke of our remembering our origins at a celular level
      (changes in brain structure) in a time of great change for humanity
      and Earth.

      A theory: what better trigger to our remembering than great events,
      such as "Contact" (maybe not à la Carl Sagan) as a catalyst to an
      inner journey?



      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:

      > Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we
      had to
      > search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
      from
      > Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn
      wouldn't really
      > have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to
      the
      > planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian
      Initiate.
      > "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find,
      but it
      > is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.
      >
      > Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals,
      there
      > arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
      > Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
      > biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is
      utterly
      > amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn
      Beings
      > as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the
      cosmic
      > memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans
      were under
      > the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand.
      The Native
      > American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was
      needed and
      > the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant
      and river
      > were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before
      them as a
      > real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
      > reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course
      America's
      > mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of
      the
      > great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.
      >
      > Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He
      takes us
      > right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we
      have
      > Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how
      Buddha came
      > to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a
      research
      > field in which the inner planetary communities and their
      explorations are
      > looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs.
      Hugo's poem
      > takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
      > different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space
      program,
      > with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took
      several
      > stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher
      Spiritual
      > realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the
      rockets red
      > glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family
      are much
      > better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and
      trails to
      > relink with our planetary family.
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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        In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

        << I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
        etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
        have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
        building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
        the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
        and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
        but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
        different laws of nature.

        I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention. >>

        ********Yes, exactly---PHYSICAL, but not filled in with MINERAL matter.

        It is not yet available on the Net, although it is now public domain. We will
        soon begin scanning it in to put on our web site, presently under
        construction.
      • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
        Hi Jeff, Ship does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our present culture. I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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          Hi Jeff,

          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
          present culture.

          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

          To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
          previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
          Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
          I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
          life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
          Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
          reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
          arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
          until they were leveled(Occult Science).

          Marc

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
          > Utopia - name please.
          >
          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
          >
          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
          there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
          computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
          being next).
          >
          >
          > Jeff
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: utopia_planetia@h...
          > To: anthroposophy@y...
          > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
          > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
          >
          >
          > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
          > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
          and
          > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
          > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
          the
          > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
          > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
          for
          > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
          this
          > info in the the aforementioned books).
          >
          > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
          > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
          > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
          > diversity in appearence?
          >
          > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
          Have
          > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
          > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
          > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
          appearence is
          > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
          Luciferic
          > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
          all
          > Luciferic influences.
          >
          > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
          > etheric in nature.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > >
          > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
          > >
          > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
          > >
          > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
          spiritual
          > beings, both
          > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
          > alternately, the
          > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
          > using
          > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
          > Ahrimanic
          > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
          > view to
          > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
          of
          > other
          > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
          > while perhaps
          > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
          to
          > their
          > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
          ideas
          > (or
          > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
          of
          > UFOs
          > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
          > point in time
          > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
          > >
          > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
          Cosmic
          > Pulse of
          > > Life.
          > >
          > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
          >
          >
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        • Kees Kromme
          Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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            Hi Marc, in this way!
            I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
            Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
            greetings kees
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

            Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
            Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
            Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
            epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
            Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
            planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
            other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
            info in the the aforementioned books).

            Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
            different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
            a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
            diversity in appearence?

            The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
            some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
            system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
            beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
            diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
            influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
            Luciferic influences.

            Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
            etheric in nature.



            --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
            >
            > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
            >
            > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
            beings, both
            > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
            alternately, the
            > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
            using
            > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
            Ahrimanic
            > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
            view to
            > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
            other
            > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
            while perhaps
            > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
            their
            > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
            (or
            > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
            UFOs
            > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
            point in time
            > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
            >
            > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
            Pulse of
            > Life.
            >
            > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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          • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
            Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 10, 2001
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              Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
              my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
              adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
              read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
              part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

              Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
              used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
              in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
              with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
              better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
              also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
              crouched position. See:
              http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
              Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

              The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
              polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
              having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

              I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
              and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
              > Hi Marc, in this way!
              > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
              > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
              alien-ufo-questions.
              > greetings kees
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: utopia_planetia@h...
              > To: anthroposophy@y...
              > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
              > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
              >
              >
              > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
              > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
              and
              > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
              > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
              the
              > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
              > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
              for
              > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
              this
              > info in the the aforementioned books).
              >
              > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
              > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
              > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
              > diversity in appearence?
              >
              > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
              Have
              > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
              > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
              > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
              appearence is
              > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
              Luciferic
              > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
              all
              > Luciferic influences.
              >
              > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
              > etheric in nature.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              > >
              > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
              > >
              > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
              > >
              > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
              spiritual
              > beings, both
              > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
              > alternately, the
              > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
              > using
              > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
              > Ahrimanic
              > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
              > view to
              > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
              of
              > other
              > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
              > while perhaps
              > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
              to
              > their
              > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
              ideas
              > (or
              > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
              of
              > UFOs
              > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
              > point in time
              > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
              > >
              > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
              Cosmic
              > Pulse of
              > > Life.
              > >
              > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
              > Unsubscribe:
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              > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@egroups.com
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            • jeff auen
              Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 12, 2001
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                Marc,
                 
                Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
                 
                jeff  
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                Hi Jeff,

                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                present culture.

                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                Marc

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                > Utopia  - name please.
                >
                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                >
                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                being next).
                >
                >
                > Jeff
                >   ----- Original Message -----
                >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                >
                >
                >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                and
                >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                the
                >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                for
                >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                this
                >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                >
                >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                >   diversity in appearence?
                >
                >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                Have
                >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                appearence is
                >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                Luciferic
                >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                all
                >   Luciferic influences.
                >
                >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                >   etheric in nature.
                >
                >
                >
                >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                >   >
                >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                >   >
                >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                >   >
                >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                spiritual
                >   beings, both
                >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                >   alternately, the
                >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                >   using
                >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                >   Ahrimanic
                >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                >   view to
                >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                of
                >   other
                >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                >   while perhaps
                >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                to
                >   their
                >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                ideas
                >   (or
                >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                of
                >   UFOs
                >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                >   point in time
                >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                >   >
                >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                Cosmic
                >   Pulse of
                >   > Life.
                >   >
                >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                >
                >
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              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                  *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                  >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                  *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                  >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                  ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                  One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                  >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                  *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                  >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                  *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                  Starman

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: >utopia_planetia@...
                  To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                  Hi Jeff,

                  "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                  present culture.

                  I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                  maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                  senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                  physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                  and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                  tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                  suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                  relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                  deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                  from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                  To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                  previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                  Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                  I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                  life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                  Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                  reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                  arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                  until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                  Marc

                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                  > Utopia - name please.
                  >
                  > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                  over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                  elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                  the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                  all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                  for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                  this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                  popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                  predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                  >
                  > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                  is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                  materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                  state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                  chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                  vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                  influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                  there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                  ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                  achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                  all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                  light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                  different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                  true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                  computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                  being next).
                  >
                  >
                  > Jeff
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                  > To: anthroposophy@y...
                  > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                  > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                  >
                  >
                  > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                  > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                  and
                  > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                  > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                  the
                  > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                  > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                  for
                  > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                  this
                  > info in the the aforementioned books).
                  >
                  > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                  > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                  > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                  > diversity in appearence?
                  >
                  > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                  Have
                  > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                  > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                  > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                  appearence is
                  > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                  Luciferic
                  > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                  all
                  > Luciferic influences.
                  >
                  > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                  > etheric in nature.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                  > >
                  > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                  > >
                  > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                  > >
                  > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                  spiritual
                  > beings, both
                  > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                  > alternately, the
                  > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                  > using
                  > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                  > Ahrimanic
                  > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                  > view to
                  > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                  of
                  > other
                  > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                  > while perhaps
                  > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                  to
                  > their
                  > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                  ideas
                  > (or
                  > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                  of
                  > UFOs
                  > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                  > point in time
                  > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                  > >
                  > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                  Cosmic
                  > Pulse of
                  > > Life.
                  > >
                  > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                • jeff auen
                  I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
                     
                    Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                     
                    Jeff Auen
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                    >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                    *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                    >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                    *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                    >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                    ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                    >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                    *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                    >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                    *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                    Starman

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: >utopia_planetia@...
                    To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                    Hi Jeff,

                    "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                    present culture.

                    I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                    maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                    senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                    physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                    and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                    tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                    suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                    relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                    deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                    from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                    To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                    previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                    Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                    I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                    life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                    Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                    reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                    arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                    until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                    Marc

                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                    > Utopia  - name please.
                    >
                    > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                    over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                    elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                    the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                    all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                    for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                    this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                    popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                    predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                    >
                    > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                    is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                    materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                    state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                    chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                    vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                    influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                    there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                    ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                    achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                    all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                    light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                    different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                    true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                    computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                    being next).
                    >
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                    >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                    >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                    >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                    >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                    >
                    >
                    >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                    >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                    and
                    >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                    >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                    the
                    >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                    >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                    for
                    >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                    this
                    >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                    >
                    >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                    >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                    >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                    >   diversity in appearence?
                    >
                    >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                    Have
                    >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                    >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                    >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                    appearence is
                    >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                    Luciferic
                    >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                    all
                    >   Luciferic influences.
                    >
                    >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                    >   etheric in nature.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                    >   >
                    >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                    >   >
                    >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                    >   >
                    >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                    spiritual
                    >   beings, both
                    >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                    >   alternately, the
                    >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                    >   using
                    >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                    >   Ahrimanic
                    >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                    >   view to
                    >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                    of
                    >   other
                    >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                    >   while perhaps
                    >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                    to
                    >   their
                    >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                    ideas
                    >   (or
                    >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                    of
                    >   UFOs
                    >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                    >   point in time
                    >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                    >   >
                    >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                    Cosmic
                    >   Pulse of
                    >   > Life.
                    >   >
                    >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                      ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                      I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                      >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                      'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                      So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                      >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                      *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                      >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                      *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                      >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                      Jeff Auen

                      *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                      'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                      Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                      Starman

                      ----- Original Message -----


                      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                      One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                      Starman

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: >utopia_planetia@...
                      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                      Hi Jeff,

                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                      present culture.

                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                      >
                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                      >
                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                      there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                      ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                      > etheric in nature.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                      > >
                      > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                      > >
                      > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                      spiritual
                      > beings, both
                      > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                      > alternately, the
                      > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                      > using
                      > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                      > Ahrimanic
                      > > deception..... >>
                      > >
                      > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                      Cosmic
                      > Pulse of
                      > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
                    • jeff auen
                      Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                         
                        • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                        • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                        • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                        • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                        • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                        • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                        • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                        That's all folks.
                         
                        Jeff Auen
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                          I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                           'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                           So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                        >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                        *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                        >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                        *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                        >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                        Jeff Auen

                        *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                        'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                        Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                        Starman

                        ----- Original Message -----


                        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                        Starman

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: >utopia_planetia@...
                        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                        Hi Jeff,

                        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                        present culture.

                        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                        >
                        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                        >
                        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                        there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                        >   etheric in nature.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                        >   >
                        >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                        >   >
                        >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                        >   >
                        >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                        spiritual
                        >   beings, both
                        >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                        >   alternately, the
                        >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                        >   using
                        >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                        >   Ahrimanic
                        >   > deception..... >>
                        >   >
                        >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                        Cosmic
                        >   Pulse of
                        >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                        pacbay@home.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          pacbay@... writes:
                          << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                          *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                          dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                          it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                          it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                          1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                          >>>My position.... is as follows:

                          There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                          other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                          *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                          that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                          meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                          very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                          physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                          repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                          that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                          the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                          and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                          >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                          and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                          These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                          identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                          *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                          articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                          here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                          photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                          physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                          far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                          from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                          photo of one attached).



                          >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                          mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                          believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                          evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                          interact or be using each other)

                          *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                          they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                          theoretical sources?


                          >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                          as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                          *******Which no one here did.

                          >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                          attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                          *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                          >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                          this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                          1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                          goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                          That's all folks.

                          *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                          because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                          to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                          everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                          in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                          take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                          using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                          scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                          that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                          part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                          Starman


                          >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                          bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                          ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                          opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                          spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                          Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                          him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                          I recall.


                          I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                          possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                          points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                          and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                          you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                          twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                          mind that for now.



                          >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                          proponents, and psychic theorists...


                          'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                          theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                          So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                          extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                          materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                          theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                          is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                          to us here.




                          >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                          there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                          characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                          *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                          'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                          that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                          something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                          (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                          accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                          middle category.



                          >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                          possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                          eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                          *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                          produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                          they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                          >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                          clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                          watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                          surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                          forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                          Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                          ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                          ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                          and then reappear', hmmm?



                          >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                          the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                          reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                          *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                          >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                          indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                          *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                          Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                          needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                          Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                          'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                          described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                          needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                          physics.


                          Starman


                          ----- Original Message -----

                          From: >utopia_planetia@...

                          To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                          Hi Jeff,

                          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                          present culture.

                          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                          >

                          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                          there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                          ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                          > etheric in nature.

                          >


                          > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                          > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                          > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                          beings, both

                          > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                          alternately, the

                          > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                          using

                          > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                          > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                          > >

                          > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                          Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                          [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                            to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                            let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                            either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                            in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                            One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                            pacbay@home.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              pacbay@... writes:
                              << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                              intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                              detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                              collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                              develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                              Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                              craft objects. >>

                              *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                              so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                              pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                              these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                              they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                              lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                              Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                              >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                              and

                              mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                              into

                              believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                              evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                              interact or be using each other)

                              *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                              they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                              theoretical sources?

                              >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                              technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                              been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                              Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                              agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                              *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                              has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                              >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                              radiation effects affect they depart.


                              *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                              do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                              what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                              >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                              and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                              *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                              PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                              with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                              years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                              as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                              of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                              Ahrimanic mythology.


                              >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                              out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                              *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                              read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                              conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                              on the phenomena.


                              >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                              hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                              the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                              *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                              sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                              NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                              Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                              what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                              PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                              whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                              that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                              that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                              "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                              science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                              view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                              >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                              inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                              50's.

                              *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                              anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                              >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                              descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                              influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                              to say the least.

                              ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                              Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                              and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                              look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                              Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                              by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                              really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                              Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                              Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                              how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                              This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                              think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                              past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                              indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                              are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                              fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                              not involved in working with it.

                              Starman
                            • jeff auen
                              I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                                National UFO Clearing Center
                                Bufora-British version of the above
                                Ufoinfo
                                Center for UFO Studies
                                UFOs.about.com
                                Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                                 
                                and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                                 
                                Jeff
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                pacbay@... writes:
                                <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                craft objects.  >>

                                *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                  >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                and

                                  mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                into

                                  believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                  evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                  interact or be using each other)

                                  *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                  they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                  theoretical sources?

                                >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                radiation effects affect they depart.


                                *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                Ahrimanic mythology.


                                >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                on the phenomena.


                                >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                50's.

                                *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                to say the least.

                                ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                    This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                not involved in working with it.

                                Starman


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                              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                                  This statement in the argument:

                                  Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                  inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                  50's.

                                  Bradford writes;

                                  There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                                  research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                                  k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                                  perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                                  gretings kees

                                  *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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