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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • jeff auen
    Utopia - name please. A very interesting idea. I don t think these fellows are coming over from these planets in ships but may be interacting in other
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
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      Utopia  - name please.
       
      A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
       
      . We must also remember that our present condition on earth is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars being next).
       
       
      Jeff
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

      Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
      Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
      Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
      epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
      Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
      planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
      other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
      info in the the aforementioned books).

      Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
      different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
      a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
      diversity in appearence?

      The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
      some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
      system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
      beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
      diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
      influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
      Luciferic influences.

      Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
      etheric in nature.



      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
      >
      > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
      >
      > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
      beings, both
      > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
      alternately, the
      > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
      using
      > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
      Ahrimanic
      > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
      view to
      > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
      other
      > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
      while perhaps
      > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
      their
      > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
      (or
      > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
      UFOs
      > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
      point in time
      > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
      >
      > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
      Pulse of
      > Life.
      >
      > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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        In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

        << ....Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated the Earth from the
        Lemurian to the Atlantean epoch. These beings are human, from the same human
        life wave of the Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not
        live on planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
        other developmental reasons, specific to them..... it is these beings that
        created the different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore a
        "physical" effect). ..... The question is, could have they come over with
        "spaceships"? Have some human beings still remained on these planets of the
        solar system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
        beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
        diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
        influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
        Luciferic influences.
        Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more etheric in
        nature. >>

        ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric dimension, and
        beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually travels,
        and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting leave behind
        our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to); etheric
        earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed into 'vehicles' for
        travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who live on
        what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two Planets by
        Phylos the Thibetan.

        Starman
      • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
        I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings have been given a physical
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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          I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
          etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
          have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
          building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
          the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
          and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
          but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
          different laws of nature.

          I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention.

          Marc

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

          > ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric
          dimension, and
          > beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually
          travels,
          > and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting
          leave behind
          > our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to);
          etheric
          > earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed
          into 'vehicles' for
          > travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who
          live on
          > what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two
          Planets by
          > Phylos the Thibetan.
          >
          > Starman
        • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
          Hi, my name is Marc. I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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            Hi, my name is Marc.

            I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the
            American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
            inhabitants. Steiner did also mention that French people (at least of
            his time) were in part the reincarnation of Indians.

            I think that the reuniting our our great planetary family will have
            to pass throught the reuniting of our great cosmic family too. We are
            from different origins so it seems, there are some of us on Saturn,
            Jupiter, Mars and probably Venus.

            Steiner spoke of our remembering our origins at a celular level
            (changes in brain structure) in a time of great change for humanity
            and Earth.

            A theory: what better trigger to our remembering than great events,
            such as "Contact" (maybe not à la Carl Sagan) as a catalyst to an
            inner journey?



            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:

            > Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we
            had to
            > search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
            from
            > Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn
            wouldn't really
            > have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to
            the
            > planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian
            Initiate.
            > "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find,
            but it
            > is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.
            >
            > Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals,
            there
            > arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
            > Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
            > biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is
            utterly
            > amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn
            Beings
            > as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the
            cosmic
            > memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans
            were under
            > the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand.
            The Native
            > American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was
            needed and
            > the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant
            and river
            > were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before
            them as a
            > real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
            > reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course
            America's
            > mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of
            the
            > great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.
            >
            > Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He
            takes us
            > right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we
            have
            > Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how
            Buddha came
            > to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a
            research
            > field in which the inner planetary communities and their
            explorations are
            > looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs.
            Hugo's poem
            > takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
            > different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space
            program,
            > with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took
            several
            > stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher
            Spiritual
            > realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the
            rockets red
            > glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family
            are much
            > better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and
            trails to
            > relink with our planetary family.
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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              In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

              << I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
              etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
              have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
              building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
              the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
              and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
              but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
              different laws of nature.

              I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention. >>

              ********Yes, exactly---PHYSICAL, but not filled in with MINERAL matter.

              It is not yet available on the Net, although it is now public domain. We will
              soon begin scanning it in to put on our web site, presently under
              construction.
            • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
              Hi Jeff, Ship does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our present culture. I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                Hi Jeff,

                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                present culture.

                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                Marc

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                > Utopia - name please.
                >
                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                >
                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                being next).
                >
                >
                > Jeff
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                > To: anthroposophy@y...
                > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                >
                >
                > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                and
                > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                the
                > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                for
                > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                this
                > info in the the aforementioned books).
                >
                > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                > diversity in appearence?
                >
                > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                Have
                > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                appearence is
                > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                Luciferic
                > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                all
                > Luciferic influences.
                >
                > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                > etheric in nature.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                > >
                > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                > >
                > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                > >
                > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                spiritual
                > beings, both
                > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                > alternately, the
                > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                > using
                > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                > Ahrimanic
                > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                > view to
                > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                of
                > other
                > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                > while perhaps
                > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                to
                > their
                > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                ideas
                > (or
                > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                of
                > UFOs
                > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                > point in time
                > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                > >
                > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                Cosmic
                > Pulse of
                > > Life.
                > >
                > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                >
                >
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              • Kees Kromme
                Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                  Hi Marc, in this way!
                  I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                  Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                  greetings kees
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                  Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                  Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                  Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                  epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                  Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                  planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                  other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                  info in the the aforementioned books).

                  Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                  different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                  a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                  diversity in appearence?

                  The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                  some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                  system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                  beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                  diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                  influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                  Luciferic influences.

                  Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                  etheric in nature.



                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                  >
                  > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                  >
                  > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                  beings, both
                  > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                  alternately, the
                  > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                  using
                  > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                  Ahrimanic
                  > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                  view to
                  > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
                  other
                  > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                  while perhaps
                  > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
                  their
                  > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
                  (or
                  > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
                  UFOs
                  > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                  point in time
                  > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                  >
                  > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
                  Pulse of
                  > Life.
                  >
                  > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                  Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 10, 2001
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                    Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
                    my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
                    adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
                    read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
                    part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

                    Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
                    used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
                    in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
                    with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
                    better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
                    also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
                    crouched position. See:
                    http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
                    Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

                    The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
                    polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
                    having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

                    I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
                    and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
                    > Hi Marc, in this way!
                    > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                    > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
                    alien-ufo-questions.
                    > greetings kees
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                    > To: anthroposophy@y...
                    > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                    > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                    >
                    >
                    > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                    > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                    and
                    > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                    > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                    the
                    > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                    > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                    for
                    > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                    this
                    > info in the the aforementioned books).
                    >
                    > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                    > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                    > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                    > diversity in appearence?
                    >
                    > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                    Have
                    > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                    > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                    > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                    appearence is
                    > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                    Luciferic
                    > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                    all
                    > Luciferic influences.
                    >
                    > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                    > etheric in nature.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                    > >
                    > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                    > >
                    > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                    > >
                    > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                    spiritual
                    > beings, both
                    > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                    > alternately, the
                    > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                    > using
                    > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                    > Ahrimanic
                    > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                    > view to
                    > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                    of
                    > other
                    > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                    > while perhaps
                    > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                    to
                    > their
                    > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                    ideas
                    > (or
                    > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                    of
                    > UFOs
                    > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                    > point in time
                    > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                    > >
                    > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                    Cosmic
                    > Pulse of
                    > > Life.
                    > >
                    > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
                    > Unsubscribe:
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                    > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@egroups.com
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                    Service.
                  • jeff auen
                    Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 12, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Marc,
                       
                      Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
                       
                      jeff  
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                      Hi Jeff,

                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                      present culture.

                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                      To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                      previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                      Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                      I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                      life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                      Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                      reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                      arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                      until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                      Marc

                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                      > Utopia  - name please.
                      >
                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                      >
                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                      there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                      computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                      being next).
                      >
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                      >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                      >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                      >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                      >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                      >
                      >
                      >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                      >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                      and
                      >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                      >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                      the
                      >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                      >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                      for
                      >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                      this
                      >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                      >
                      >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                      >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                      >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                      >   diversity in appearence?
                      >
                      >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                      Have
                      >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                      >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                      >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                      appearence is
                      >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                      Luciferic
                      >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                      all
                      >   Luciferic influences.
                      >
                      >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                      >   etheric in nature.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                      >   >
                      >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                      >   >
                      >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                      >   >
                      >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                      spiritual
                      >   beings, both
                      >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                      >   alternately, the
                      >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                      >   using
                      >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                      >   Ahrimanic
                      >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                      >   view to
                      >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                      of
                      >   other
                      >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                      >   while perhaps
                      >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                      to
                      >   their
                      >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                      ideas
                      >   (or
                      >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                      of
                      >   UFOs
                      >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                      >   point in time
                      >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                      >   >
                      >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                      Cosmic
                      >   Pulse of
                      >   > Life.
                      >   >
                      >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                      >
                      >
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                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                      ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                        Starman

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: >utopia_planetia@...
                        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                        Hi Jeff,

                        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                        present culture.

                        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                        To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                        previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                        Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                        I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                        life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                        Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                        reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                        arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                        until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                        Marc

                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                        > Utopia - name please.
                        >
                        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                        >
                        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                        computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                        being next).
                        >
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                        > To: anthroposophy@y...
                        > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                        > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                        >
                        >
                        > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                        > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                        and
                        > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                        > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                        the
                        > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                        > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                        for
                        > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                        this
                        > info in the the aforementioned books).
                        >
                        > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                        > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                        > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                        > diversity in appearence?
                        >
                        > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                        Have
                        > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                        > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                        > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                        appearence is
                        > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                        Luciferic
                        > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                        all
                        > Luciferic influences.
                        >
                        > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                        > etheric in nature.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                        > >
                        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                        > >
                        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                        spiritual
                        > beings, both
                        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                        > alternately, the
                        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                        > using
                        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                        > Ahrimanic
                        > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                        > view to
                        > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                        of
                        > other
                        > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                        > while perhaps
                        > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                        to
                        > their
                        > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                        ideas
                        > (or
                        > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                        of
                        > UFOs
                        > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                        > point in time
                        > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                        > >
                        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                        Cosmic
                        > Pulse of
                        > > Life.
                        > >
                        > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                      • jeff auen
                        I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
                           
                          Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                           
                          Jeff Auen
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                          >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                          *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                          >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                          *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                          >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                          ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                              One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                          >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                          *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                          >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                          *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                          Starman

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: >utopia_planetia@...
                          To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                          Hi Jeff,

                          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                          present culture.

                          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                          To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                          previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                          Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                          I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                          life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                          Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                          reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                          arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                          until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                          Marc

                          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                          > Utopia  - name please.
                          >
                          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                          >
                          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                          there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                          computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                          being next).
                          >
                          >
                          > Jeff
                          >   ----- Original Message -----
                          >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                          >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                          >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                          >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                          >
                          >
                          >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                          >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                          and
                          >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                          >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                          the
                          >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                          >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                          for
                          >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                          this
                          >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                          >
                          >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                          >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                          >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                          >   diversity in appearence?
                          >
                          >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                          Have
                          >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                          >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                          >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                          appearence is
                          >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                          Luciferic
                          >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                          all
                          >   Luciferic influences.
                          >
                          >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                          >   etheric in nature.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                          >   >
                          >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                          >   >
                          >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                          >   >
                          >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                          spiritual
                          >   beings, both
                          >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                          >   alternately, the
                          >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                          >   using
                          >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                          >   Ahrimanic
                          >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                          >   view to
                          >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                          of
                          >   other
                          >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                          >   while perhaps
                          >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                          to
                          >   their
                          >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                          ideas
                          >   (or
                          >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                          of
                          >   UFOs
                          >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                          >   point in time
                          >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                          >   >
                          >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                          Cosmic
                          >   Pulse of
                          >   > Life.
                          >   >
                          >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                          ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                            ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                            I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                            >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                            'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                            So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                            >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                            *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                            >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                            *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                            >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                            Jeff Auen

                            *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                            'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                            Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                            Starman

                            ----- Original Message -----


                            >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                            *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                            >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                            *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                            >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                            ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                            >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                            *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                            >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                            *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                            Starman

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: >utopia_planetia@...
                            To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                            Hi Jeff,

                            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                            present culture.

                            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                            >
                            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                            >
                            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                            there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                            ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                            > etheric in nature.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                            > >
                            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                            > >
                            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                            > >
                            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                            spiritual
                            > beings, both
                            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                            > alternately, the
                            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                            > using
                            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                            > Ahrimanic
                            > > deception..... >>
                            > >
                            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                            Cosmic
                            > Pulse of
                            > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
                          • jeff auen
                            Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                               
                              • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                              • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                              • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                              • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                              • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                              • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                              • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                              That's all folks.
                               
                              Jeff Auen
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                              >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                              ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                              >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                 'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                 So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                              >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                              *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                              >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                              *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                              >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                              Jeff Auen

                              *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                              'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                              Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                              Starman

                              ----- Original Message -----


                              >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                              *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                              >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                              *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                              >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                              ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                  One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                              >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                              *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                              >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                              *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                              Starman

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: >utopia_planetia@...
                              To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                              Hi Jeff,

                              "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                              present culture.

                              I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                              maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                              senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                              physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                              and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                              tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                              suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                              relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                              deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                              from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                              >
                              > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                              over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                              elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                              the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                              all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                              for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                              this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                              popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                              predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                              >
                              > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                              is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                              materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                              state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                              chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                              vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                              influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                              there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                              ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                              achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                              all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                              light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                              different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                              true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                              ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                              >   etheric in nature.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                              >   >
                              >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                              >   >
                              >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                              >   >
                              >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                              spiritual
                              >   beings, both
                              >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                              >   alternately, the
                              >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                              >   using
                              >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                              >   Ahrimanic
                              >   > deception..... >>
                              >   >
                              >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                              Cosmic
                              >   Pulse of
                              >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                              pacbay@home.com writes:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                pacbay@... writes:
                                << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                                *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                                dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                                it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                                it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                                1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                                >>>My position.... is as follows:

                                There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                                other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                                *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                                that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                                meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                                very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                                physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                                repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                                that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                                the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                                and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                                >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                                and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                                These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                                identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                                *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                                articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                                here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                                photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                                physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                                far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                                from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                                photo of one attached).



                                >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                                mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                                believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                                evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                                interact or be using each other)

                                *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                                they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                                theoretical sources?


                                >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                                as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                                *******Which no one here did.

                                >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                                attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                                *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                                >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                                this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                                1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                                goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                                That's all folks.

                                *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                                because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                                to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                                everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                                in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                                take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                                using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                                scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                                that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                                part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                                Starman


                                >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                                bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                                ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                                opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                                Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                                him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                                I recall.


                                I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                                possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                                points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                                and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                                you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                                twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                                mind that for now.



                                >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                                proponents, and psychic theorists...


                                'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                                theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                                So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                                extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                                materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                                theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                                is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                                to us here.




                                >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                                there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                                characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                                *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                                'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                                that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                                something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                                (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                                accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                                middle category.



                                >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                                possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                                eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                                *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                                produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                                they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                                >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                                clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                                watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                                surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                                forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                                Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                                ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                                One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                                ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                                and then reappear', hmmm?



                                >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                                the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                                reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                                *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                                >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                                indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                                *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                                Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                                needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                                Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                                'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                                described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                                needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                                physics.


                                Starman


                                ----- Original Message -----

                                From: >utopia_planetia@...

                                To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                                Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                Hi Jeff,

                                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                                present culture.

                                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                                >

                                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                                there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                                ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                                > etheric in nature.

                                >


                                > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                                > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                                > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                                beings, both

                                > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                alternately, the

                                > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                using

                                > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                                > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                                > >

                                > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                                Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                                  to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                                  let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                                  either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                                  in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                                  One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                  pacbay@home.com writes:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    pacbay@... writes:
                                    << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                    intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                    detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                    collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                    develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                    Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                    craft objects. >>

                                    *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                    so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                    pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                    these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                    they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                    lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                    Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                    >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                    and

                                    mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                    into

                                    believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                    evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                    interact or be using each other)

                                    *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                    they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                    theoretical sources?

                                    >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                    technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                    been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                    Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                    agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                    *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                    has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                    >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                    radiation effects affect they depart.


                                    *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                    do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                    what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                    >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                    and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                    *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                    PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                    with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                    years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                    as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                    of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                    Ahrimanic mythology.


                                    >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                    out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                    *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                    read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                    conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                    on the phenomena.


                                    >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                    hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                    the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                    *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                    sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                    NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                    Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                    what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                    PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                    whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                    that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                    that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                    "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                    science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                    view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                    >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                    inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                    50's.

                                    *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                    anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                    >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                    descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                    influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                    to say the least.

                                    ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                    Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                    and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                    look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                    Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                    by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                    really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                    Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                    Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                    how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                    This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                    think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                    past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                    indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                    are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                    fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                    not involved in working with it.

                                    Starman
                                  • jeff auen
                                    I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
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                                      I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                                      National UFO Clearing Center
                                      Bufora-British version of the above
                                      Ufoinfo
                                      Center for UFO Studies
                                      UFOs.about.com
                                      Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                                       
                                      and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                                       
                                      Jeff
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                      pacbay@... writes:
                                      <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                      intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                      detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                      collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                      develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                      Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                      craft objects.  >>

                                      *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                      so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                      pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                      these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                      they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                      lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                      Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                        >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                      and

                                        mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                      into

                                        believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                        evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                        interact or be using each other)

                                        *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                        they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                        theoretical sources?

                                      >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                      technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                      been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                      Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                      agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                      *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                      has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                      >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                      radiation effects affect they depart.


                                      *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                      do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                      what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                      >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                      and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                      *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                      PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                      with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                      years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                      as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                      of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                      Ahrimanic mythology.


                                      >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                      out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                      *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                      read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                      conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                      on the phenomena.


                                      >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                      hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                      the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                      *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                      sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                      NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                      Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                      what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                      PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                      whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                      that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                      that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                      "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                      science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                      view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                      >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                      inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                      50's.

                                      *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                      anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                      >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                      descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                      influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                      to say the least.

                                      ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                      Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                      and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                      look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                      Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                      by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                      really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                      Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                      Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                      how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                          This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                      think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                      past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                      indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                      are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                      fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                      not involved in working with it.

                                      Starman


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                                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                      This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                                        This statement in the argument:

                                        Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                        inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                        50's.

                                        Bradford writes;

                                        There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                                        research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                                        k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                                        perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                                        gretings kees

                                        *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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