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Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • jeff auen
    As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO s at Amazon! try: Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 9, 2001
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      As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO's at Amazon! try:
       
      Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and Goode
      UFO Briefing - the Best Available Evidence by Berkner
      The Best Evidence Video by Las Vegas Newscaster and Journalist George Knapp
       
      Videos, Photos and hands on experiences are hard to falsify by psychic ploys..
       
      Jeff
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


      In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@... writes:

      << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

      An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual beings, both
      in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and, alternately, the
      likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings using
      "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the Ahrimanic
      deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either view to
      dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of other
      physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe, while perhaps
      helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to their
      origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas (or
      really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of UFOs
      though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this point in time
      maintain vigilant skepticism. >>

      Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic Pulse of
      Life.

      Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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    • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
      Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 8 7:17 AM
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        Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
        Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
        Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
        epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
        Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
        planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
        other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
        info in the the aforementioned books).

        Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
        different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
        a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
        diversity in appearence?

        The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
        some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
        system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
        beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
        diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
        influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
        Luciferic influences.

        Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
        etheric in nature.



        --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        >
        > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
        >
        > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
        >
        > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
        beings, both
        > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
        alternately, the
        > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
        using
        > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
        Ahrimanic
        > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
        view to
        > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
        other
        > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
        while perhaps
        > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
        their
        > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
        (or
        > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
        UFOs
        > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
        point in time
        > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
        >
        > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
        Pulse of
        > Life.
        >
        > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
      • Bradford Riley
        ... Bradford writes; Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 8 3:09 PM
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          >From: utopia_planetia@...
          >>Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
          >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:17:17 -0000

          Bradford writes;

          Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to
          search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear from
          Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn wouldn't really
          have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to the
          planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian Initiate.
          "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find, but it
          is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.

          Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals, there
          arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
          Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
          biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is utterly
          amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn Beings
          as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the cosmic
          memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans were under
          the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand. The Native
          American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was needed and
          the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant and river
          were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before them as a
          real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
          reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course America's
          mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of the
          great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.

          Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He takes us
          right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we have
          Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how Buddha came
          to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a research
          field in which the inner planetary communities and their explorations are
          looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs. Hugo's poem
          takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
          different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space program,
          with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took several
          stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher Spiritual
          realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the rockets red
          glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family are much
          better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and trails to
          relink with our planetary family.


          Some one wrote;

          >Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
          >Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
          >Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
          >epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
          >Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
          >planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
          >other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
          >info in the the aforementioned books).
          >
          >Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
          >different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
          >a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
          >diversity in appearence?
          >
          >The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
          >some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
          >system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
          >beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
          >diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
          >influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
          >Luciferic influences.
          >
          >Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
          >etheric in nature.
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
        • jeff auen
          Utopia - name please. A very interesting idea. I don t think these fellows are coming over from these planets in ships but may be interacting in other
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 8 7:20 PM
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            Utopia  - name please.
             
            A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
             
            . We must also remember that our present condition on earth is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars being next).
             
             
            Jeff
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

            Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
            Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
            Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
            epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
            Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
            planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
            other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
            info in the the aforementioned books).

            Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
            different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
            a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
            diversity in appearence?

            The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
            some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
            system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
            beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
            diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
            influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
            Luciferic influences.

            Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
            etheric in nature.



            --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
            >
            > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
            >
            > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
            beings, both
            > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
            alternately, the
            > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
            using
            > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
            Ahrimanic
            > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
            view to
            > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
            other
            > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
            while perhaps
            > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
            their
            > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
            (or
            > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
            UFOs
            > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
            point in time
            > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
            >
            > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
            Pulse of
            > Life.
            >
            > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 9 7:20 AM
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              In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

              << ....Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated the Earth from the
              Lemurian to the Atlantean epoch. These beings are human, from the same human
              life wave of the Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not
              live on planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
              other developmental reasons, specific to them..... it is these beings that
              created the different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore a
              "physical" effect). ..... The question is, could have they come over with
              "spaceships"? Have some human beings still remained on these planets of the
              solar system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
              beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
              diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
              influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
              Luciferic influences.
              Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more etheric in
              nature. >>

              ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric dimension, and
              beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually travels,
              and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting leave behind
              our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to); etheric
              earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed into 'vehicles' for
              travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who live on
              what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two Planets by
              Phylos the Thibetan.

              Starman
            • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
              I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings have been given a physical
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 9 9:52 AM
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                I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                different laws of nature.

                I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention.

                Marc

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

                > ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric
                dimension, and
                > beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually
                travels,
                > and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting
                leave behind
                > our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to);
                etheric
                > earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed
                into 'vehicles' for
                > travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who
                live on
                > what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two
                Planets by
                > Phylos the Thibetan.
                >
                > Starman
              • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                Hi, my name is Marc. I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 9 10:13 AM
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                  Hi, my name is Marc.

                  I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the
                  American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                  inhabitants. Steiner did also mention that French people (at least of
                  his time) were in part the reincarnation of Indians.

                  I think that the reuniting our our great planetary family will have
                  to pass throught the reuniting of our great cosmic family too. We are
                  from different origins so it seems, there are some of us on Saturn,
                  Jupiter, Mars and probably Venus.

                  Steiner spoke of our remembering our origins at a celular level
                  (changes in brain structure) in a time of great change for humanity
                  and Earth.

                  A theory: what better trigger to our remembering than great events,
                  such as "Contact" (maybe not à la Carl Sagan) as a catalyst to an
                  inner journey?



                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:

                  > Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we
                  had to
                  > search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
                  from
                  > Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn
                  wouldn't really
                  > have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to
                  the
                  > planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian
                  Initiate.
                  > "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find,
                  but it
                  > is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.
                  >
                  > Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals,
                  there
                  > arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
                  > Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
                  > biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is
                  utterly
                  > amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn
                  Beings
                  > as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the
                  cosmic
                  > memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans
                  were under
                  > the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand.
                  The Native
                  > American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was
                  needed and
                  > the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant
                  and river
                  > were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before
                  them as a
                  > real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
                  > reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course
                  America's
                  > mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of
                  the
                  > great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.
                  >
                  > Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He
                  takes us
                  > right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we
                  have
                  > Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how
                  Buddha came
                  > to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a
                  research
                  > field in which the inner planetary communities and their
                  explorations are
                  > looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs.
                  Hugo's poem
                  > takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
                  > different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space
                  program,
                  > with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took
                  several
                  > stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher
                  Spiritual
                  > realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the
                  rockets red
                  > glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family
                  are much
                  > better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and
                  trails to
                  > relink with our planetary family.
                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 9 10:18 AM
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                    In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

                    << I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                    etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                    have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                    building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                    the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                    and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                    but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                    different laws of nature.

                    I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention. >>

                    ********Yes, exactly---PHYSICAL, but not filled in with MINERAL matter.

                    It is not yet available on the Net, although it is now public domain. We will
                    soon begin scanning it in to put on our web site, presently under
                    construction.
                  • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                    Hi Jeff, Ship does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our present culture. I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 9 10:55 AM
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                      Hi Jeff,

                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                      present culture.

                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                      To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                      previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                      Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                      I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                      life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                      Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                      reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                      arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                      until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                      Marc

                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                      > Utopia - name please.
                      >
                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                      >
                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                      there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                      computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                      being next).
                      >
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                      > To: anthroposophy@y...
                      > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                      > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                      >
                      >
                      > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                      > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                      and
                      > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                      > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                      the
                      > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                      > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                      for
                      > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                      this
                      > info in the the aforementioned books).
                      >
                      > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                      > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                      > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                      > diversity in appearence?
                      >
                      > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                      Have
                      > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                      > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                      > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                      appearence is
                      > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                      Luciferic
                      > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                      all
                      > Luciferic influences.
                      >
                      > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                      > etheric in nature.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                      > >
                      > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                      > >
                      > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                      spiritual
                      > beings, both
                      > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                      > alternately, the
                      > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                      > using
                      > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                      > Ahrimanic
                      > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                      > view to
                      > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                      of
                      > other
                      > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                      > while perhaps
                      > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                      to
                      > their
                      > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                      ideas
                      > (or
                      > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                      of
                      > UFOs
                      > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                      > point in time
                      > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                      > >
                      > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                      Cosmic
                      > Pulse of
                      > > Life.
                      > >
                      > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                      >
                      >
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                      Service.
                    • Kees Kromme
                      Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 9 12:49 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Marc, in this way!
                        I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                        Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                        greetings kees
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                        Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                        Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                        Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                        epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                        Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                        planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                        other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                        info in the the aforementioned books).

                        Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                        different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                        a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                        diversity in appearence?

                        The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                        some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                        system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                        beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                        diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                        influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                        Luciferic influences.

                        Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                        etheric in nature.



                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                        >
                        > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                        >
                        > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                        >
                        > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                        beings, both
                        > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                        alternately, the
                        > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                        using
                        > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                        Ahrimanic
                        > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                        view to
                        > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
                        other
                        > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                        while perhaps
                        > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
                        their
                        > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
                        (or
                        > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
                        UFOs
                        > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                        point in time
                        > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                        >
                        > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
                        Pulse of
                        > Life.
                        >
                        > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                      • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                        Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 10 4:09 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
                          my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
                          adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
                          read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
                          part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

                          Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
                          used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
                          in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
                          with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
                          better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
                          also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
                          crouched position. See:
                          http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
                          Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

                          The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
                          polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
                          having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

                          I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
                          and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




                          --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
                          > Hi Marc, in this way!
                          > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                          > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
                          alien-ufo-questions.
                          > greetings kees
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                          > To: anthroposophy@y...
                          > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                          > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                          >
                          >
                          > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                          > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                          and
                          > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                          > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                          the
                          > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                          > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                          for
                          > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                          this
                          > info in the the aforementioned books).
                          >
                          > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                          > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                          > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                          > diversity in appearence?
                          >
                          > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                          Have
                          > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                          > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                          > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                          appearence is
                          > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                          Luciferic
                          > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                          all
                          > Luciferic influences.
                          >
                          > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                          > etheric in nature.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                          > >
                          > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                          > >
                          > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                          spiritual
                          > beings, both
                          > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                          > alternately, the
                          > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                          > using
                          > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                          > Ahrimanic
                          > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                          > view to
                          > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                          of
                          > other
                          > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                          > while perhaps
                          > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                          to
                          > their
                          > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                          ideas
                          > (or
                          > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                          of
                          > UFOs
                          > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                          > point in time
                          > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                          > >
                          > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                          Cosmic
                          > Pulse of
                          > > Life.
                          > >
                          > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                          >
                          >
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                        • jeff auen
                          Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 12 8:50 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Marc,
                             
                            Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
                             
                            jeff  
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                            Hi Jeff,

                            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                            present culture.

                            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                            To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                            previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                            Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                            I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                            life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                            Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                            reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                            arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                            until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                            Marc

                            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                            > Utopia  - name please.
                            >
                            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                            >
                            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                            there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                            computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                            being next).
                            >
                            >
                            > Jeff
                            >   ----- Original Message -----
                            >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                            >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                            >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                            >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                            >
                            >
                            >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                            >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                            and
                            >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                            >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                            the
                            >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                            >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                            for
                            >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                            this
                            >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                            >
                            >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                            >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                            >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                            >   diversity in appearence?
                            >
                            >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                            Have
                            >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                            >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                            >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                            appearence is
                            >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                            Luciferic
                            >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                            all
                            >   Luciferic influences.
                            >
                            >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                            >   etheric in nature.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                            >   >
                            >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                            >   >
                            >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                            >   >
                            >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                            spiritual
                            >   beings, both
                            >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                            >   alternately, the
                            >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                            >   using
                            >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                            >   Ahrimanic
                            >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                            >   view to
                            >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                            of
                            >   other
                            >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                            >   while perhaps
                            >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                            to
                            >   their
                            >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                            ideas
                            >   (or
                            >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                            of
                            >   UFOs
                            >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                            >   point in time
                            >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                            >   >
                            >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                            Cosmic
                            >   Pulse of
                            >   > Life.
                            >   >
                            >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                            >
                            >
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                          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                            ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                              *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                              >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                              *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                              >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                              ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                              One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                              >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                              *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                              >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                              *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                              Starman

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: >utopia_planetia@...
                              To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                              Hi Jeff,

                              "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                              present culture.

                              I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                              maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                              senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                              physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                              and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                              tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                              suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                              relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                              deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                              from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                              To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                              previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                              Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                              I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                              life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                              Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                              reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                              arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                              until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                              Marc

                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                              > Utopia - name please.
                              >
                              > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                              over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                              elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                              the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                              all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                              for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                              this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                              popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                              predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                              >
                              > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                              is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                              materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                              state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                              chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                              vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                              influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                              there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                              ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                              achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                              all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                              light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                              different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                              true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                              computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                              being next).
                              >
                              >
                              > Jeff
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                              > To: anthroposophy@y...
                              > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                              > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                              >
                              >
                              > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                              > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                              and
                              > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                              > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                              the
                              > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                              > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                              for
                              > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                              this
                              > info in the the aforementioned books).
                              >
                              > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                              > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                              > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                              > diversity in appearence?
                              >
                              > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                              Have
                              > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                              > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                              > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                              appearence is
                              > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                              Luciferic
                              > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                              all
                              > Luciferic influences.
                              >
                              > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                              > etheric in nature.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                              > >
                              > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                              > >
                              > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                              spiritual
                              > beings, both
                              > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                              > alternately, the
                              > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                              > using
                              > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                              > Ahrimanic
                              > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                              > view to
                              > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                              of
                              > other
                              > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                              > while perhaps
                              > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                              to
                              > their
                              > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                              ideas
                              > (or
                              > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                              of
                              > UFOs
                              > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                              > point in time
                              > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                              > >
                              > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                              Cosmic
                              > Pulse of
                              > > Life.
                              > >
                              > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                            • jeff auen
                              I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
                                 
                                Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                 
                                Jeff Auen
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                    One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                Starman

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                Hi Jeff,

                                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                present culture.

                                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                Marc

                                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                > Utopia  - name please.
                                >
                                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                >
                                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                being next).
                                >
                                >
                                > Jeff
                                >   ----- Original Message -----
                                >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                                >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                >
                                >
                                >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                and
                                >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                the
                                >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                for
                                >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                this
                                >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                                >
                                >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                >   diversity in appearence?
                                >
                                >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                Have
                                >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                appearence is
                                >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                Luciferic
                                >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                all
                                >   Luciferic influences.
                                >
                                >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                >   etheric in nature.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                >   >
                                >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                >   >
                                >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                >   >
                                >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                spiritual
                                >   beings, both
                                >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                >   alternately, the
                                >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                >   using
                                >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                >   Ahrimanic
                                >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                >   view to
                                >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                of
                                >   other
                                >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                >   while perhaps
                                >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                to
                                >   their
                                >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                ideas
                                >   (or
                                >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                of
                                >   UFOs
                                >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                >   point in time
                                >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                >   >
                                >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                Cosmic
                                >   Pulse of
                                >   > Life.
                                >   >
                                >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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                              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                  ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                  I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                  >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                  'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                  So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                  >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                  *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                  >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                  *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                  >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                  Jeff Auen

                                  *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                  'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                  Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                  Starman

                                  ----- Original Message -----


                                  >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                  *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                  >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                  *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                  >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                  ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                  One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                  >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                  *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                  >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                  *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                  Starman

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                  To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                  Hi Jeff,

                                  "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                  present culture.

                                  I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                  maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                  senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                  physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                  and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                  tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                  suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                  relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                  deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                  from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                  >
                                  > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                  over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                  elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                  the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                  all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                  for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                  this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                  popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                  predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                  >
                                  > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                  is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                  materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                  state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                  chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                  vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                  influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                  there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                                  ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                  achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                  all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                  light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                  different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                  true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                  ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                  > etheric in nature.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                  > >
                                  > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                  > >
                                  > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                  spiritual
                                  > beings, both
                                  > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                  > alternately, the
                                  > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                  > using
                                  > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                  > Ahrimanic
                                  > > deception..... >>
                                  > >
                                  > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                  Cosmic
                                  > Pulse of
                                  > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                • jeff auen
                                  Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                                     
                                    • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                                    • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                                    • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                                    • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                                    • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                                    • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                                    • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                                    That's all folks.
                                     
                                    Jeff Auen
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                    >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                    ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                      I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                    >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                       'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                       So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                    >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                    *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                    >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                    *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                    >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                    Jeff Auen

                                    *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                    'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                    Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                    Starman

                                    ----- Original Message -----


                                    >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                    *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                    >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                    *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                    >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                    ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                    >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                    *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                    >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                    *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                    Starman

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                    To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                    Hi Jeff,

                                    "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                    present culture.

                                    I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                    maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                    senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                    physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                    and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                    tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                    suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                    relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                    deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                    from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                    >
                                    > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                    over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                    elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                    the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                    all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                    for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                    this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                    popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                    predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                    >
                                    > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                    is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                    materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                    state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                    chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                    vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                    influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                    there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                    ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                    achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                    all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                    light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                    different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                    true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                    ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                    >   etheric in nature.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                    >   >
                                    >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                    >   >
                                    >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                    >   >
                                    >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                    spiritual
                                    >   beings, both
                                    >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                    >   alternately, the
                                    >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                    >   using
                                    >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                    >   Ahrimanic
                                    >   > deception..... >>
                                    >   >
                                    >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                    Cosmic
                                    >   Pulse of
                                    >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                    pacbay@home.com writes:
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      pacbay@... writes:
                                      << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                                      *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                                      dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                                      it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                                      it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                                      1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                                      >>>My position.... is as follows:

                                      There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                                      other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                                      *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                                      that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                                      meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                                      very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                                      physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                                      repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                                      that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                                      the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                                      and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                                      >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                                      and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                                      These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                                      identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                                      *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                                      articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                                      here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                                      photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                                      physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                                      far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                                      from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                                      photo of one attached).



                                      >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                                      mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                                      believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                                      evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                                      interact or be using each other)

                                      *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                                      they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                                      theoretical sources?


                                      >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                                      as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                                      *******Which no one here did.

                                      >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                                      attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                                      *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                                      >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                                      this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                                      1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                                      goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                                      That's all folks.

                                      *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                                      because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                                      to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                                      everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                                      in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                                      take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                                      using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                                      scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                                      that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                                      part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                                      Starman


                                      >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                                      bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                                      ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                                      opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                      spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                                      Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                                      him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                                      I recall.


                                      I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                                      possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                                      points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                                      and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                                      you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                                      twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                                      mind that for now.



                                      >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                                      proponents, and psychic theorists...


                                      'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                                      theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                                      So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                                      extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                                      materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                                      theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                                      is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                                      to us here.




                                      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                                      there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                                      characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                                      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                                      'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                                      that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                                      something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                                      (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                                      accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                                      middle category.



                                      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                                      possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                                      eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                                      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                                      produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                                      they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                                      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                                      clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                                      watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                                      surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                                      forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                                      Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                                      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                                      One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                                      ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                                      and then reappear', hmmm?



                                      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                                      the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                                      reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                                      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                                      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                                      indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                                      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                                      Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                                      needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                                      Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                                      'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                                      described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                                      needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                                      physics.


                                      Starman


                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                      From: >utopia_planetia@...

                                      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                                      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                      Hi Jeff,

                                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                                      present culture.

                                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                                      >

                                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                                      there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                                      ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                                      > etheric in nature.

                                      >


                                      > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                                      > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                                      > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                                      beings, both

                                      > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                      alternately, the

                                      > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                      using

                                      > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                                      > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                                      > >

                                      > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                                      Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                      [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                                        to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                                        let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                                        either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                                        in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                                        One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                                      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                        pacbay@home.com writes:
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          pacbay@... writes:
                                          << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                          intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                          detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                          collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                          develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                          Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                          craft objects. >>

                                          *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                          so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                          pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                          these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                          they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                          lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                          Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                          >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                          and

                                          mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                          into

                                          believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                          evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                          interact or be using each other)

                                          *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                          they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                          theoretical sources?

                                          >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                          technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                          been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                          Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                          agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                          *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                          has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                          >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                          radiation effects affect they depart.


                                          *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                          do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                          what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                          >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                          and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                          *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                          PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                          with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                          years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                          as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                          of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                          Ahrimanic mythology.


                                          >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                          out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                          *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                          read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                          conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                          on the phenomena.


                                          >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                          hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                          the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                          *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                          sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                          NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                          Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                          what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                          PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                          whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                          that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                          that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                          "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                          science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                          view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                          >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                          inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                          50's.

                                          *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                          anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                          >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                          descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                          influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                          to say the least.

                                          ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                          Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                          and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                          look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                          Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                          by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                          really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                          Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                          Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                          how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                          This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                          think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                          past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                          indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                          are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                          fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                          not involved in working with it.

                                          Starman
                                        • jeff auen
                                          I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                                            National UFO Clearing Center
                                            Bufora-British version of the above
                                            Ufoinfo
                                            Center for UFO Studies
                                            UFOs.about.com
                                            Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                                             
                                            and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                                             
                                            Jeff
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                            pacbay@... writes:
                                            <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                            intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                            detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                            collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                            develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                            Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                            craft objects.  >>

                                            *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                            so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                            pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                            these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                            they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                            lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                            Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                              >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                            and

                                              mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                            into

                                              believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                              evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                              interact or be using each other)

                                              *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                              they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                              theoretical sources?

                                            >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                            technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                            been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                            Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                            agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                            *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                            has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                            >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                            radiation effects affect they depart.


                                            *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                            do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                            what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                            >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                            and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                            *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                            PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                            with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                            years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                            as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                            of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                            Ahrimanic mythology.


                                            >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                            out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                            *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                            read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                            conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                            on the phenomena.


                                            >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                            hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                            the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                            *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                            sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                            NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                            Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                            what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                            PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                            whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                            that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                            that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                            "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                            science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                            view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                            >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                            inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                            50's.

                                            *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                            anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                            >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                            descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                            influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                            to say the least.

                                            ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                            Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                            and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                            look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                            Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                            by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                            really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                            Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                            Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                            how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                                This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                            think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                            past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                            indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                            are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                            fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                            not involved in working with it.

                                            Starman


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                                          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                            This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                                              This statement in the argument:

                                              Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                              inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                              50's.

                                              Bradford writes;

                                              There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                                              research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                                              k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                                              perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                                              gretings kees

                                              *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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