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Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    pacbay@home.com writes:
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 9, 2001
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      pacbay@... writes: < I would ask the following:

      What if:

      An alien UFO was actually found and was available for reverse engineering?

      What if:

      A non human intelligent being appeared and had contact with us?

      How would the Ahrimanic or bioplasmic perspective deal with this? >>

      *******And I would say this is reversing the inquiry. I'd ask: why has none
      ever BEEN found, with thousands of 'UFO' reports every year, most of which
      (as reporter John Keel discovered) are only of 'lights'? I'd say this way of
      asking the question is not scientific or inductive, but an example of what
      the Doctor called the 'tyranny of the concept'.

      There is no evidence for solid physical ships visiting here, and yet
      massive evidence for something around constantly that never leaves a physical
      artifact. Why? What does that evidence point to? NOT to astronauts from other
      planets---which is why scientists ridicule the whole subject. 'Real'
      (physical) entities all around our planet on the scale of UFO sightings would
      be leaving tangible evidence by the tons. Have already mentioned the UFOs
      clocked at faster than sound that don't make sonic booms in our atmosphere...
      the right-angle turns at lethal G-force speed... the witnessed
      materializations and dematerializations.

      Attached is another JPEG of what a ship really looks like.

      And as for...
      <<I have read The Pulse of Life and find it a limited post- vitatlist
      (bio-plasmic) attempt to describe certain phemonena better explained by other
      theories...<<

      *******...You regard the work of a man who actually found and photographed
      the entities he figured out were there from studying Steiner's 4 Ethers and
      Wachsmuth's book of Etheric Physics as more 'limited' than the sci-fi 'Star
      Trek' myth? I find the latter to be what is quite severely limited: as the
      Doctor said, the physicists have no reality in their thinking at all. A
      physics that allows for the realities behind capillary dynamolysis, sensitive
      crystallization, cymatics and bio-dynamic preparations has no place in the
      Ahrimanized picture of man in the 24th century having the exact same
      consciousness as now, the exact same science only materially refined, and
      never having to grow in spiritual awareness but only build a big lumbering
      material vehicle to travel through interstellar space as the actual voyagers
      do, whom this science wouldn't know if it fell over them. If by 'other
      theories' you mean these, I certainly see no 'better' explanatory power. The
      ships-from-other-planets theory is an Ahrimanic hoax, I say unequivocally. I
      have no need to argue the point: time will show the truth, as no artifacts
      from any physical visitors to earth ever materialize.

      The real phenomenon underneath what the 'Trickster spirits' do with it is,
      I think, what's important to advance science beyond its present hallucination
      of certainty, and lead to beginning to confront the reality of etheric and
      astral beings.

      Starman
    • jeff auen
      As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO s at Amazon! try: Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 9, 2001
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        As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO's at Amazon! try:
         
        Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and Goode
        UFO Briefing - the Best Available Evidence by Berkner
        The Best Evidence Video by Las Vegas Newscaster and Journalist George Knapp
         
        Videos, Photos and hands on experiences are hard to falsify by psychic ploys..
         
        Jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


        In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@... writes:

        << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

        An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual beings, both
        in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and, alternately, the
        likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings using
        "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the Ahrimanic
        deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either view to
        dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of other
        physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe, while perhaps
        helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to their
        origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas (or
        really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of UFOs
        though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this point in time
        maintain vigilant skepticism. >>

        Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic Pulse of
        Life.

        Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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      • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
        Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
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          Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
          Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
          Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
          epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
          Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
          planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
          other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
          info in the the aforementioned books).

          Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
          different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
          a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
          diversity in appearence?

          The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
          some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
          system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
          beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
          diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
          influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
          Luciferic influences.

          Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
          etheric in nature.



          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
          >
          > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
          >
          > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
          beings, both
          > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
          alternately, the
          > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
          using
          > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
          Ahrimanic
          > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
          view to
          > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
          other
          > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
          while perhaps
          > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
          their
          > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
          (or
          > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
          UFOs
          > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
          point in time
          > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
          >
          > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
          Pulse of
          > Life.
          >
          > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
        • Bradford Riley
          ... Bradford writes; Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
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            >From: utopia_planetia@...
            >>Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
            >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:17:17 -0000

            Bradford writes;

            Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to
            search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear from
            Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn wouldn't really
            have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to the
            planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian Initiate.
            "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find, but it
            is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.

            Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals, there
            arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
            Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
            biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is utterly
            amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn Beings
            as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the cosmic
            memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans were under
            the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand. The Native
            American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was needed and
            the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant and river
            were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before them as a
            real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
            reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course America's
            mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of the
            great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.

            Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He takes us
            right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we have
            Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how Buddha came
            to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a research
            field in which the inner planetary communities and their explorations are
            looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs. Hugo's poem
            takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
            different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space program,
            with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took several
            stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher Spiritual
            realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the rockets red
            glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family are much
            better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and trails to
            relink with our planetary family.


            Some one wrote;

            >Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
            >Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
            >Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
            >epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
            >Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
            >planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
            >other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
            >info in the the aforementioned books).
            >
            >Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
            >different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
            >a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
            >diversity in appearence?
            >
            >The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
            >some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
            >system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
            >beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
            >diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
            >influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
            >Luciferic influences.
            >
            >Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
            >etheric in nature.
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • jeff auen
            Utopia - name please. A very interesting idea. I don t think these fellows are coming over from these planets in ships but may be interacting in other
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
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              Utopia  - name please.
               
              A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
               
              . We must also remember that our present condition on earth is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars being next).
               
               
              Jeff
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

              Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
              Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
              Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
              epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
              Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
              planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
              other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
              info in the the aforementioned books).

              Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
              different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
              a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
              diversity in appearence?

              The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
              some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
              system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
              beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
              diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
              influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
              Luciferic influences.

              Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
              etheric in nature.



              --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
              >
              > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
              >
              > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
              beings, both
              > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
              alternately, the
              > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
              using
              > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
              Ahrimanic
              > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
              view to
              > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
              other
              > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
              while perhaps
              > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
              their
              > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
              (or
              > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
              UFOs
              > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
              point in time
              > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
              >
              > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
              Pulse of
              > Life.
              >
              > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

                << ....Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated the Earth from the
                Lemurian to the Atlantean epoch. These beings are human, from the same human
                life wave of the Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not
                live on planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                other developmental reasons, specific to them..... it is these beings that
                created the different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore a
                "physical" effect). ..... The question is, could have they come over with
                "spaceships"? Have some human beings still remained on these planets of the
                solar system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                Luciferic influences.
                Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more etheric in
                nature. >>

                ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric dimension, and
                beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually travels,
                and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting leave behind
                our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to); etheric
                earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed into 'vehicles' for
                travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who live on
                what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two Planets by
                Phylos the Thibetan.

                Starman
              • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings have been given a physical
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                  I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                  etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                  have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                  building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                  the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                  and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                  but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                  different laws of nature.

                  I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention.

                  Marc

                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

                  > ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric
                  dimension, and
                  > beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually
                  travels,
                  > and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting
                  leave behind
                  > our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to);
                  etheric
                  > earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed
                  into 'vehicles' for
                  > travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who
                  live on
                  > what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two
                  Planets by
                  > Phylos the Thibetan.
                  >
                  > Starman
                • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                  Hi, my name is Marc. I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                    Hi, my name is Marc.

                    I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the
                    American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                    inhabitants. Steiner did also mention that French people (at least of
                    his time) were in part the reincarnation of Indians.

                    I think that the reuniting our our great planetary family will have
                    to pass throught the reuniting of our great cosmic family too. We are
                    from different origins so it seems, there are some of us on Saturn,
                    Jupiter, Mars and probably Venus.

                    Steiner spoke of our remembering our origins at a celular level
                    (changes in brain structure) in a time of great change for humanity
                    and Earth.

                    A theory: what better trigger to our remembering than great events,
                    such as "Contact" (maybe not à la Carl Sagan) as a catalyst to an
                    inner journey?



                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:

                    > Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we
                    had to
                    > search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
                    from
                    > Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn
                    wouldn't really
                    > have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to
                    the
                    > planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian
                    Initiate.
                    > "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find,
                    but it
                    > is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.
                    >
                    > Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals,
                    there
                    > arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
                    > Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
                    > biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is
                    utterly
                    > amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn
                    Beings
                    > as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the
                    cosmic
                    > memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans
                    were under
                    > the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand.
                    The Native
                    > American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was
                    needed and
                    > the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant
                    and river
                    > were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before
                    them as a
                    > real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
                    > reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course
                    America's
                    > mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of
                    the
                    > great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.
                    >
                    > Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He
                    takes us
                    > right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we
                    have
                    > Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how
                    Buddha came
                    > to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a
                    research
                    > field in which the inner planetary communities and their
                    explorations are
                    > looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs.
                    Hugo's poem
                    > takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
                    > different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space
                    program,
                    > with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took
                    several
                    > stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher
                    Spiritual
                    > realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the
                    rockets red
                    > glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family
                    are much
                    > better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and
                    trails to
                    > relink with our planetary family.
                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                      In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

                      << I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                      etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                      have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                      building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                      the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                      and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                      but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                      different laws of nature.

                      I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention. >>

                      ********Yes, exactly---PHYSICAL, but not filled in with MINERAL matter.

                      It is not yet available on the Net, although it is now public domain. We will
                      soon begin scanning it in to put on our web site, presently under
                      construction.
                    • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                      Hi Jeff, Ship does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our present culture. I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
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                        Hi Jeff,

                        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                        present culture.

                        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                        To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                        previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                        Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                        I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                        life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                        Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                        reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                        arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                        until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                        Marc

                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                        > Utopia - name please.
                        >
                        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                        >
                        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                        computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                        being next).
                        >
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                        > To: anthroposophy@y...
                        > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                        > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                        >
                        >
                        > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                        > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                        and
                        > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                        > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                        the
                        > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                        > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                        for
                        > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                        this
                        > info in the the aforementioned books).
                        >
                        > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                        > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                        > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                        > diversity in appearence?
                        >
                        > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                        Have
                        > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                        > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                        > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                        appearence is
                        > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                        Luciferic
                        > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                        all
                        > Luciferic influences.
                        >
                        > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                        > etheric in nature.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                        > >
                        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                        > >
                        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                        spiritual
                        > beings, both
                        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                        > alternately, the
                        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                        > using
                        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                        > Ahrimanic
                        > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                        > view to
                        > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                        of
                        > other
                        > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                        > while perhaps
                        > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                        to
                        > their
                        > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                        ideas
                        > (or
                        > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                        of
                        > UFOs
                        > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                        > point in time
                        > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                        > >
                        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                        Cosmic
                        > Pulse of
                        > > Life.
                        > >
                        > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                        >
                        >
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                      • Kees Kromme
                        Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Marc, in this way!
                          I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                          Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                          greetings kees
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                          Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                          Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                          Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                          epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                          Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                          planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                          other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                          info in the the aforementioned books).

                          Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                          different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                          a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                          diversity in appearence?

                          The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                          some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                          system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                          beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                          diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                          influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                          Luciferic influences.

                          Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                          etheric in nature.



                          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                          >
                          > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                          >
                          > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                          >
                          > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                          beings, both
                          > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                          alternately, the
                          > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                          using
                          > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                          Ahrimanic
                          > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                          view to
                          > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
                          other
                          > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                          while perhaps
                          > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
                          their
                          > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
                          (or
                          > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
                          UFOs
                          > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                          point in time
                          > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                          >
                          > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
                          Pulse of
                          > Life.
                          >
                          > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                        • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                          Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 10, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
                            my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
                            adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
                            read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
                            part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

                            Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
                            used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
                            in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
                            with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
                            better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
                            also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
                            crouched position. See:
                            http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
                            Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

                            The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
                            polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
                            having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

                            I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
                            and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




                            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
                            > Hi Marc, in this way!
                            > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                            > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
                            alien-ufo-questions.
                            > greetings kees
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                            > To: anthroposophy@y...
                            > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                            >
                            >
                            > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                            > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                            and
                            > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                            > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                            the
                            > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                            > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                            for
                            > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                            this
                            > info in the the aforementioned books).
                            >
                            > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                            > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                            > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                            > diversity in appearence?
                            >
                            > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                            Have
                            > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                            > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                            > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                            appearence is
                            > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                            Luciferic
                            > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                            all
                            > Luciferic influences.
                            >
                            > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                            > etheric in nature.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                            > >
                            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                            > >
                            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                            > >
                            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                            spiritual
                            > beings, both
                            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                            > alternately, the
                            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                            > using
                            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                            > Ahrimanic
                            > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                            > view to
                            > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                            of
                            > other
                            > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                            > while perhaps
                            > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                            to
                            > their
                            > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                            ideas
                            > (or
                            > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                            of
                            > UFOs
                            > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                            > point in time
                            > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                            > >
                            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                            Cosmic
                            > Pulse of
                            > > Life.
                            > >
                            > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                            >
                            >
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                          • jeff auen
                            Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 12, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Marc,
                               
                              Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
                               
                              jeff  
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                              Hi Jeff,

                              "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                              present culture.

                              I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                              maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                              senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                              physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                              and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                              tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                              suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                              relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                              deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                              from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                              To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                              previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                              Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                              I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                              life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                              Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                              reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                              arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                              until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                              Marc

                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                              > Utopia  - name please.
                              >
                              > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                              over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                              elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                              the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                              all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                              for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                              this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                              popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                              predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                              >
                              > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                              is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                              materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                              state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                              chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                              vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                              influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                              there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                              ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                              achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                              all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                              light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                              different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                              true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                              computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                              being next).
                              >
                              >
                              > Jeff
                              >   ----- Original Message -----
                              >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                              >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                              >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                              >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                              >
                              >
                              >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                              >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                              and
                              >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                              >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                              the
                              >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                              >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                              for
                              >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                              this
                              >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                              >
                              >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                              >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                              >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                              >   diversity in appearence?
                              >
                              >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                              Have
                              >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                              >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                              >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                              appearence is
                              >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                              Luciferic
                              >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                              all
                              >   Luciferic influences.
                              >
                              >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                              >   etheric in nature.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                              >   >
                              >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                              >   >
                              >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                              >   >
                              >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                              spiritual
                              >   beings, both
                              >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                              >   alternately, the
                              >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                              >   using
                              >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                              >   Ahrimanic
                              >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                              >   view to
                              >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                              of
                              >   other
                              >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                              >   while perhaps
                              >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                              to
                              >   their
                              >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                              ideas
                              >   (or
                              >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                              of
                              >   UFOs
                              >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                              >   point in time
                              >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                              >   >
                              >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                              Cosmic
                              >   Pulse of
                              >   > Life.
                              >   >
                              >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                              >
                              >
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                            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                              ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                Starman

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                Hi Jeff,

                                "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                present culture.

                                I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                Marc

                                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                > Utopia - name please.
                                >
                                > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                >
                                > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                                ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                being next).
                                >
                                >
                                > Jeff
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                >
                                >
                                > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                and
                                > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                the
                                > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                for
                                > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                this
                                > info in the the aforementioned books).
                                >
                                > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                > diversity in appearence?
                                >
                                > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                Have
                                > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                appearence is
                                > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                Luciferic
                                > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                all
                                > Luciferic influences.
                                >
                                > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                > etheric in nature.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                > >
                                > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                > >
                                > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                > >
                                > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                spiritual
                                > beings, both
                                > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                > alternately, the
                                > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                > using
                                > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                > Ahrimanic
                                > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                > view to
                                > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                of
                                > other
                                > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                > while perhaps
                                > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                to
                                > their
                                > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                ideas
                                > (or
                                > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                of
                                > UFOs
                                > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                > point in time
                                > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                > >
                                > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                Cosmic
                                > Pulse of
                                > > Life.
                                > >
                                > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                              • jeff auen
                                I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
                                   
                                  Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                   
                                  Jeff Auen
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                  >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                  *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                  >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                  *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                  >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                  ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                      One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                  >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                  *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                  >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                  *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                  Starman

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                  To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                  Hi Jeff,

                                  "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                  present culture.

                                  I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                  maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                  senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                  physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                  and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                  tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                  suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                  relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                  deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                  from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                  To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                  previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                  Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                  I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                  life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                  Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                  reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                  arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                  until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                  Marc

                                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                  > Utopia  - name please.
                                  >
                                  > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                  over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                  elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                  the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                  all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                  for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                  this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                  popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                  predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                  >
                                  > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                  is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                  materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                  state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                  chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                  vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                  influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                  there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                  ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                  achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                  all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                  light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                  different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                  true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                  computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                  being next).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jeff
                                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                                  >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                  >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                                  >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                  >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                  >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                  and
                                  >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                  >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                  the
                                  >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                  >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                  for
                                  >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                  this
                                  >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                                  >
                                  >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                  >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                  >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                  >   diversity in appearence?
                                  >
                                  >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                  Have
                                  >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                  >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                  >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                  appearence is
                                  >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                  Luciferic
                                  >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                  all
                                  >   Luciferic influences.
                                  >
                                  >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                  >   etheric in nature.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                  >   >
                                  >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                  >   >
                                  >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                  >   >
                                  >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                  spiritual
                                  >   beings, both
                                  >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                  >   alternately, the
                                  >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                  >   using
                                  >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                  >   Ahrimanic
                                  >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                  >   view to
                                  >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                  of
                                  >   other
                                  >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                  >   while perhaps
                                  >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                  to
                                  >   their
                                  >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                  ideas
                                  >   (or
                                  >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                  of
                                  >   UFOs
                                  >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                  >   point in time
                                  >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                  >   >
                                  >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                  Cosmic
                                  >   Pulse of
                                  >   > Life.
                                  >   >
                                  >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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                                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                  ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                    ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                    I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                    >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                    'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                    So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                    >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                    *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                    >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                    *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                    >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                    Jeff Auen

                                    *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                    'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                    Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                    Starman

                                    ----- Original Message -----


                                    >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                    *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                    >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                    *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                    >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                    ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                    One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                    >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                    *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                    >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                    *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                    Starman

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                    To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                    Hi Jeff,

                                    "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                    present culture.

                                    I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                    maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                    senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                    physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                    and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                    tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                    suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                    relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                    deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                    from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                    >
                                    > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                    over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                    elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                    the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                    all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                    for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                    this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                    popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                    predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                    >
                                    > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                    is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                    materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                    state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                    chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                    vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                    influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                    there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                                    ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                    achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                    all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                    light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                    different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                    true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                    ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                    > etheric in nature.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                    > >
                                    > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                    > >
                                    > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                    spiritual
                                    > beings, both
                                    > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                    > alternately, the
                                    > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                    > using
                                    > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                    > Ahrimanic
                                    > > deception..... >>
                                    > >
                                    > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                    Cosmic
                                    > Pulse of
                                    > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                  • jeff auen
                                    Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                                       
                                      • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                                      • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                                      • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                                      • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                                      • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                                      • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                                      • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                                      That's all folks.
                                       
                                      Jeff Auen
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                      >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                      ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                      >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                         'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                         So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                      >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                      *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                      >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                      *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                      >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                      Jeff Auen

                                      *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                      'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                      Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                      Starman

                                      ----- Original Message -----


                                      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                      Starman

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                      Hi Jeff,

                                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                      present culture.

                                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                      >
                                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                      >
                                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                      there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                      ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                      >   etheric in nature.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                      >   >
                                      >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                      >   >
                                      >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                      >   >
                                      >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                      spiritual
                                      >   beings, both
                                      >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                      >   alternately, the
                                      >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                      >   using
                                      >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                      >   Ahrimanic
                                      >   > deception..... >>
                                      >   >
                                      >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                      Cosmic
                                      >   Pulse of
                                      >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                      pacbay@home.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        pacbay@... writes:
                                        << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                                        *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                                        dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                                        it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                                        it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                                        1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                                        >>>My position.... is as follows:

                                        There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                                        other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                                        *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                                        that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                                        meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                                        very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                                        physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                                        repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                                        that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                                        the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                                        and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                                        >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                                        and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                                        These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                                        identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                                        *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                                        articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                                        here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                                        photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                                        physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                                        far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                                        from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                                        photo of one attached).



                                        >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                                        mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                                        believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                                        evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                                        interact or be using each other)

                                        *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                                        they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                                        theoretical sources?


                                        >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                                        as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                                        *******Which no one here did.

                                        >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                                        attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                                        *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                                        >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                                        this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                                        1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                                        goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                                        That's all folks.

                                        *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                                        because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                                        to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                                        everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                                        in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                                        take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                                        using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                                        scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                                        that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                                        part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                                        Starman


                                        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                                        bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                                        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                                        opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                        spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                                        Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                                        him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                                        I recall.


                                        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                                        possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                                        points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                                        and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                                        you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                                        twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                                        mind that for now.



                                        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                                        proponents, and psychic theorists...


                                        'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                                        theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                                        So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                                        extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                                        materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                                        theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                                        is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                                        to us here.




                                        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                                        there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                                        characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                                        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                                        'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                                        that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                                        something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                                        (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                                        accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                                        middle category.



                                        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                                        possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                                        eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                                        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                                        produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                                        they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                                        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                                        clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                                        watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                                        surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                                        forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                                        Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                                        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                                        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                                        ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                                        and then reappear', hmmm?



                                        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                                        the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                                        reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                                        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                                        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                                        indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                                        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                                        Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                                        needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                                        Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                                        'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                                        described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                                        needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                                        physics.


                                        Starman


                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                        From: >utopia_planetia@...

                                        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                                        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                        Hi Jeff,

                                        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                                        present culture.

                                        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                                        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                                        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                                        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                                        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                                        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                                        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                                        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                                        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                                        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                                        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                                        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                                        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                                        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                                        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                                        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                                        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                                        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                                        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                                        >

                                        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                                        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                                        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                                        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                                        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                                        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                                        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                                        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                                        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                                        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                                        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                                        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                                        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                                        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                                        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                                        > etheric in nature.

                                        >


                                        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                                        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                                        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                                        beings, both

                                        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                        alternately, the

                                        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                        using

                                        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                                        > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                                        > >

                                        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                                        Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                                      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                        [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                                          to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                                          let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                                          either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                                          in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                                          One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                          pacbay@home.com writes:
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            pacbay@... writes:
                                            << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                            intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                            detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                            collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                            develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                            Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                            craft objects. >>

                                            *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                            so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                            pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                            these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                            they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                            lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                            Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                            >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                            and

                                            mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                            into

                                            believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                            evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                            interact or be using each other)

                                            *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                            they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                            theoretical sources?

                                            >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                            technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                            been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                            Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                            agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                            *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                            has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                            >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                            radiation effects affect they depart.


                                            *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                            do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                            what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                            >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                            and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                            *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                            PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                            with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                            years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                            as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                            of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                            Ahrimanic mythology.


                                            >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                            out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                            *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                            read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                            conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                            on the phenomena.


                                            >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                            hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                            the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                            *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                            sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                            NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                            Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                            what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                            PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                            whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                            that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                            that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                            "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                            science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                            view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                            >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                            inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                            50's.

                                            *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                            anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                            >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                            descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                            influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                            to say the least.

                                            ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                            Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                            and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                            look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                            Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                            by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                            really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                            Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                            Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                            how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                            This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                            think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                            past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                            indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                            are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                            fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                            not involved in working with it.

                                            Starman
                                          • jeff auen
                                            I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                                              National UFO Clearing Center
                                              Bufora-British version of the above
                                              Ufoinfo
                                              Center for UFO Studies
                                              UFOs.about.com
                                              Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                                               
                                              and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                                               
                                              Jeff
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                              pacbay@... writes:
                                              <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                              intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                              detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                              collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                              develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                              Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                              craft objects.  >>

                                              *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                              so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                              pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                              these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                              they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                              lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                              Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                                >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                              and

                                                mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                              into

                                                believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                                evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                                interact or be using each other)

                                                *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                                they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                                theoretical sources?

                                              >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                              technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                              been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                              Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                              agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                              *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                              has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                              >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                              radiation effects affect they depart.


                                              *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                              do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                              what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                              >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                              and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                              *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                              PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                              with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                              years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                              as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                              of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                              Ahrimanic mythology.


                                              >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                              out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                              *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                              read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                              conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                              on the phenomena.


                                              >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                              hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                              the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                              *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                              sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                              NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                              Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                              what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                              PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                              whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                              that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                              that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                              "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                              science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                              view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                              >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                              inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                              50's.

                                              *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                              anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                              >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                              descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                              influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                              to say the least.

                                              ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                              Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                              and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                              look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                              Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                              by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                              really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                              Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                              Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                              how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                                  This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                              think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                              past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                              indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                              are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                              fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                              not involved in working with it.

                                              Starman


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                                            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                              This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
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                                                This statement in the argument:

                                                Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                                50's.

                                                Bradford writes;

                                                There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                                                research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                                                k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                                                perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                                                gretings kees

                                                *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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