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Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@aol.com writes:
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 8 8:10 PM
      In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@... writes:

      << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

      An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual beings, both
      in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and, alternately, the
      likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings using
      "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the Ahrimanic
      deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either view to
      dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of other
      physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe, while perhaps
      helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to their
      origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas (or
      really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of UFOs
      though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this point in time
      maintain vigilant skepticism. >>

      Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic Pulse of
      Life.

      Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
    • jeff auen
      I have read The Pulse of Life and find it a limited post- vitatlist (bio-plasmic) attempt to describe certain phemonena better explained by other theories. I
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 9 6:38 PM
        I have read The Pulse of Life and find it a limited post- vitatlist (bio-plasmic) attempt to describe certain phemonena better explained by other theories. I continue to stand by the hardware from other planets theory. And I would ask the following:
         
        What if:
         
        An alien UFO was actually found and was available for reverse engineering?
         
        What if:
         
        A non human intelligent being appeared and  had contact with us? 
         
         
        How would the Ahrimanic or bioplasmic perspective deal with this?
         
         
         
        Jeff
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


        In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@... writes:

        << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

        An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual beings, both
        in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and, alternately, the
        likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings using
        "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the Ahrimanic
        deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either view to
        dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of other
        physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe, while perhaps
        helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to their
        origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas (or
        really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of UFOs
        though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this point in time
        maintain vigilant skepticism. >>

        Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic Pulse of
        Life.

        Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        pacbay@home.com writes:
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 9 7:15 PM
          pacbay@... writes: < I would ask the following:

          What if:

          An alien UFO was actually found and was available for reverse engineering?

          What if:

          A non human intelligent being appeared and had contact with us?

          How would the Ahrimanic or bioplasmic perspective deal with this? >>

          *******And I would say this is reversing the inquiry. I'd ask: why has none
          ever BEEN found, with thousands of 'UFO' reports every year, most of which
          (as reporter John Keel discovered) are only of 'lights'? I'd say this way of
          asking the question is not scientific or inductive, but an example of what
          the Doctor called the 'tyranny of the concept'.

          There is no evidence for solid physical ships visiting here, and yet
          massive evidence for something around constantly that never leaves a physical
          artifact. Why? What does that evidence point to? NOT to astronauts from other
          planets---which is why scientists ridicule the whole subject. 'Real'
          (physical) entities all around our planet on the scale of UFO sightings would
          be leaving tangible evidence by the tons. Have already mentioned the UFOs
          clocked at faster than sound that don't make sonic booms in our atmosphere...
          the right-angle turns at lethal G-force speed... the witnessed
          materializations and dematerializations.

          Attached is another JPEG of what a ship really looks like.

          And as for...
          <<I have read The Pulse of Life and find it a limited post- vitatlist
          (bio-plasmic) attempt to describe certain phemonena better explained by other
          theories...<<

          *******...You regard the work of a man who actually found and photographed
          the entities he figured out were there from studying Steiner's 4 Ethers and
          Wachsmuth's book of Etheric Physics as more 'limited' than the sci-fi 'Star
          Trek' myth? I find the latter to be what is quite severely limited: as the
          Doctor said, the physicists have no reality in their thinking at all. A
          physics that allows for the realities behind capillary dynamolysis, sensitive
          crystallization, cymatics and bio-dynamic preparations has no place in the
          Ahrimanized picture of man in the 24th century having the exact same
          consciousness as now, the exact same science only materially refined, and
          never having to grow in spiritual awareness but only build a big lumbering
          material vehicle to travel through interstellar space as the actual voyagers
          do, whom this science wouldn't know if it fell over them. If by 'other
          theories' you mean these, I certainly see no 'better' explanatory power. The
          ships-from-other-planets theory is an Ahrimanic hoax, I say unequivocally. I
          have no need to argue the point: time will show the truth, as no artifacts
          from any physical visitors to earth ever materialize.

          The real phenomenon underneath what the 'Trickster spirits' do with it is,
          I think, what's important to advance science beyond its present hallucination
          of certainty, and lead to beginning to confront the reality of etheric and
          astral beings.

          Starman
        • jeff auen
          As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO s at Amazon! try: Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 9 9:16 PM
            As an addition to the earlier post, among the nearly 645 books on UFO's at Amazon! try:
             
            Open Skies, For the First Time a Govt UFO Expert Speaks Out by Pope and Goode
            UFO Briefing - the Best Available Evidence by Berkner
            The Best Evidence Video by Las Vegas Newscaster and Journalist George Knapp
             
            Videos, Photos and hands on experiences are hard to falsify by psychic ploys..
             
            Jeff
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] RE: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


            In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@... writes:

            << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

            An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual beings, both
            in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and, alternately, the
            likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings using
            "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the Ahrimanic
            deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either view to
            dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of other
            physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe, while perhaps
            helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to their
            origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas (or
            really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of UFOs
            though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this point in time
            maintain vigilant skepticism. >>

            Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic Pulse of
            Life.

            Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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          • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
            Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
              Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
              Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
              Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
              epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
              Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
              planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
              other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
              info in the the aforementioned books).

              Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
              different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
              a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
              diversity in appearence?

              The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
              some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
              system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
              beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
              diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
              influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
              Luciferic influences.

              Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
              etheric in nature.



              --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
              >
              > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
              >
              > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
              beings, both
              > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
              alternately, the
              > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
              using
              > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
              Ahrimanic
              > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
              view to
              > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
              other
              > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
              while perhaps
              > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
              their
              > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
              (or
              > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
              UFOs
              > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
              point in time
              > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
              >
              > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
              Pulse of
              > Life.
              >
              > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
            • Bradford Riley
              ... Bradford writes; Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
                >From: utopia_planetia@...
                >>Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:17:17 -0000

                Bradford writes;

                Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we had to
                search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear from
                Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn wouldn't really
                have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to the
                planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian Initiate.
                "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find, but it
                is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.

                Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals, there
                arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
                Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
                biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is utterly
                amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn Beings
                as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the cosmic
                memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans were under
                the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand. The Native
                American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was needed and
                the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant and river
                were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before them as a
                real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
                reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course America's
                mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of the
                great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.

                Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He takes us
                right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we have
                Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how Buddha came
                to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a research
                field in which the inner planetary communities and their explorations are
                looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs. Hugo's poem
                takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
                different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space program,
                with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took several
                stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher Spiritual
                realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the rockets red
                glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family are much
                better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and trails to
                relink with our planetary family.


                Some one wrote;

                >Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                >Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                >Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                >epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                >Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                >planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                >other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                >info in the the aforementioned books).
                >
                >Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                >different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                >a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                >diversity in appearence?
                >
                >The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                >some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                >system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                >beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                >diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                >influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                >Luciferic influences.
                >
                >Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                >etheric in nature.
                >
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
              • jeff auen
                Utopia - name please. A very interesting idea. I don t think these fellows are coming over from these planets in ships but may be interacting in other
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 8, 2001
                  Utopia  - name please.
                   
                  A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                   
                  . We must also remember that our present condition on earth is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars being next).
                   
                   
                  Jeff
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                  Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                  Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                  Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                  epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                  Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                  planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                  other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                  info in the the aforementioned books).

                  Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                  different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                  a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                  diversity in appearence?

                  The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                  some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                  system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                  beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                  diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                  influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                  Luciferic influences.

                  Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                  etheric in nature.



                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                  >
                  > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                  >
                  > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                  beings, both
                  > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                  alternately, the
                  > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                  using
                  > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                  Ahrimanic
                  > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                  view to
                  > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
                  other
                  > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                  while perhaps
                  > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
                  their
                  > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
                  (or
                  > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
                  UFOs
                  > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                  point in time
                  > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                  >
                  > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
                  Pulse of
                  > Life.
                  >
                  > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



                  http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
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                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                    In a message dated 9/8/2001 10:19:25 AM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

                    << ....Saturnians, Jupiterians and Marsians repopulated the Earth from the
                    Lemurian to the Atlantean epoch. These beings are human, from the same human
                    life wave of the Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not
                    live on planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                    other developmental reasons, specific to them..... it is these beings that
                    created the different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore a
                    "physical" effect). ..... The question is, could have they come over with
                    "spaceships"? Have some human beings still remained on these planets of the
                    solar system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                    beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                    diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                    influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                    Luciferic influences.
                    Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more etheric in
                    nature. >>

                    ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric dimension, and
                    beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually travels,
                    and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting leave behind
                    our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to); etheric
                    earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed into 'vehicles' for
                    travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who live on
                    what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two Planets by
                    Phylos the Thibetan.

                    Starman
                  • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                    I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings have been given a physical
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                      I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                      etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                      have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                      building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                      the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                      and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                      but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                      different laws of nature.

                      I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention.

                      Marc

                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:

                      > ********All the planets of the solar sytem have an etheric
                      dimension, and
                      > beings there have etheric bodies. It is the astral which actually
                      travels,
                      > and leaves behind its etheric body (as we in astral projecting
                      leave behind
                      > our physical and etheric---or else we'd have nothing to return to);
                      etheric
                      > earth-beings (what we call elementals) are transformed
                      into 'vehicles' for
                      > travel while here on this planet. A great description of those who
                      live on
                      > what we call Venus can be found in the book A Dweller on Two
                      Planets by
                      > Phylos the Thibetan.
                      >
                      > Starman
                    • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                      Hi, my name is Marc. I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                        Hi, my name is Marc.

                        I have a lot of French friends who have a fascination with the
                        American continent, in the context of its native traditions and
                        inhabitants. Steiner did also mention that French people (at least of
                        his time) were in part the reincarnation of Indians.

                        I think that the reuniting our our great planetary family will have
                        to pass throught the reuniting of our great cosmic family too. We are
                        from different origins so it seems, there are some of us on Saturn,
                        Jupiter, Mars and probably Venus.

                        Steiner spoke of our remembering our origins at a celular level
                        (changes in brain structure) in a time of great change for humanity
                        and Earth.

                        A theory: what better trigger to our remembering than great events,
                        such as "Contact" (maybe not à la Carl Sagan) as a catalyst to an
                        inner journey?



                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:

                        > Who ever you are, that is a very good place to start, even if we
                        had to
                        > search out the Devachan for the Mars Beings. Saturn, it is clear
                        from
                        > Steiner's descriptions dealing with Victor Hugo, that Saturn
                        wouldn't really
                        > have the firvolity of anything Lucifer left. Now here is a path to
                        the
                        > planets. Hugo visited the Saturn Beings because he was a Hibernian
                        Initiate.
                        > "The cold hard outer banks"... He wrote a poem which I had to find,
                        but it
                        > is in Human Encounters and Karma by Athys Floride.
                        >
                        > Based on Steiner's researches into Karmic histories of individuals,
                        there
                        > arises a poem from Hugo as a memory of his Saturn experiences as an
                        > Initiate. His writers ability to get deep into the full warmth of a
                        > biography and join ranks with the salavaged French language is
                        utterly
                        > amazing. The peculiar warmth generated for understanding the Saturn
                        Beings
                        > as Memory of the Cosmos, living not in the future but holding the
                        cosmic
                        > memory forces, is truly stunning. On earth the Native Americans
                        were under
                        > the Saturn Race and there is a mystery we have yet to understand.
                        The Native
                        > American Saturn Race were minimilists, they only took what was
                        needed and
                        > the entire ecological book of nature and and every animal, plant
                        and river
                        > were part of a book of warmth and brotherhood spread out before
                        them as a
                        > real book and real religion. They were right. We Ahrimanized their
                        > reputation and we need their understanding of Earth and of course
                        America's
                        > mission as Ahrimans vessel didn't want to have the noble concept of
                        the
                        > great Native American Saturn race on his view screen.
                        >
                        > Hugo's poem is called "THE VISION FROM WHICH THIS BOOK AROSE". He
                        takes us
                        > right to the Saturn edge of the world. Instead of astronauts we
                        have
                        > Innernauts.. instead of dumb blank stares when it comes to how
                        Buddha came
                        > to Mars and how Christ came from the Sun, we need to develop a
                        research
                        > field in which the inner planetary communities and their
                        explorations are
                        > looked upon as a real heroic, Right Stuff training programs.
                        Hugo's poem
                        > takes you right to the edge of the Saturn universe and it is a very
                        > different perception from ours. Everything in NASA and the space
                        program,
                        > with its three stage rockets and our three bodies and how it took
                        several
                        > stages to land the Christ into Jesus, are all imitations of higher
                        Spiritual
                        > realities. We are fascinated with the blundering power of the
                        rockets red
                        > glare but the inner initiation journeys of the Great Human Family
                        are much
                        > better adventure stories.. We need to follow some of the clues and
                        trails to
                        > relink with our planetary family.
                      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                        In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@hotmail.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                          In a message dated 9/9/2001 12:53:34 PM, utopia_planetia@... writes:

                          << I find this discussion very constructive. All the planets have an
                          etheric dimension, I agree. To consider also is that human beings
                          have been given a physical body in the Saturn-period, the first
                          building block of our being. Therefore, since it is human beings from
                          the same wave of life as us that live on Saturn, Jupiter and Mars --
                          and probably Venus, they must have a physical body as well. Physical,
                          but not mineralized or ahrimanized (densified), responding to
                          different laws of nature.

                          I will look for the book "A Dweller On Two Worlds" you mention. >>

                          ********Yes, exactly---PHYSICAL, but not filled in with MINERAL matter.

                          It is not yet available on the Net, although it is now public domain. We will
                          soon begin scanning it in to put on our web site, presently under
                          construction.
                        • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                          Hi Jeff, Ship does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our present culture. I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                            Hi Jeff,

                            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                            present culture.

                            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                            To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                            previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                            Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                            I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                            life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                            Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                            reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                            arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                            until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                            Marc

                            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                            > Utopia - name please.
                            >
                            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                            >
                            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                            there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                            computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                            being next).
                            >
                            >
                            > Jeff
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                            > To: anthroposophy@y...
                            > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                            > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                            >
                            >
                            > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                            > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                            and
                            > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                            > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                            the
                            > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                            > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                            for
                            > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                            this
                            > info in the the aforementioned books).
                            >
                            > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                            > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                            > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                            > diversity in appearence?
                            >
                            > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                            Have
                            > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                            > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                            > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                            appearence is
                            > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                            Luciferic
                            > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                            all
                            > Luciferic influences.
                            >
                            > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                            > etheric in nature.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                            > >
                            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                            > >
                            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                            > >
                            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                            spiritual
                            > beings, both
                            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                            > alternately, the
                            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                            > using
                            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                            > Ahrimanic
                            > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                            > view to
                            > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                            of
                            > other
                            > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                            > while perhaps
                            > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                            to
                            > their
                            > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                            ideas
                            > (or
                            > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                            of
                            > UFOs
                            > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                            > point in time
                            > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                            > >
                            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                            Cosmic
                            > Pulse of
                            > > Life.
                            > >
                            > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                            >
                            >
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                          • Kees Kromme
                            Hi Marc, in this way! I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-) Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 9, 2001
                              Hi Marc, in this way!
                              I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                              Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your alien-ufo-questions.
                              greetings kees
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                              Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                              Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                              Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians and
                              Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                              epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of the
                              Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                              planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and for
                              other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all this
                              info in the the aforementioned books).

                              Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                              different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                              a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                              diversity in appearence?

                              The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"? Have
                              some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                              system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                              beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their appearence is
                              diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and Luciferic
                              influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped all
                              Luciferic influences.

                              Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                              etheric in nature.



                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                              >
                              > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                              >
                              > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                              >
                              > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                              beings, both
                              > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                              alternately, the
                              > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                              using
                              > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                              Ahrimanic
                              > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                              view to
                              > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility of
                              other
                              > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                              while perhaps
                              > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as to
                              their
                              > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's ideas
                              (or
                              > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance of
                              UFOs
                              > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                              point in time
                              > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                              >
                              > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The Cosmic
                              Pulse of
                              > Life.
                              >
                              > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                            • utopia_planetia@hotmail.com
                              Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by adding more data,
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 10, 2001
                                Hi Kees! Kees has unfortunately been subjected for a second time with
                                my UFO considerations, and, unfortunately, I want to continue here by
                                adding more data, related to certain questions and disagreements I
                                read in previous topics of this list (of which I was previously not
                                part). At least, you cannot blame me for having started it. ;-)

                                Crop circles, with the science behind it. Scientists have brought and
                                used tools to measure any particularities of the crops flatenned and
                                in close proximity in the crop circle. They are abnormally charged
                                with residual micro-wave energy. Moreover, crops affected as so grow
                                better, bear more fruits for many days following. Flatenned crops
                                also, in certain reported cases, are intricatelly weaved in their
                                crouched position. See:
                                http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/belinda.htm (under Microwave
                                Transient Heating research by Dr. William C. Levengood).

                                The problem is that there are hoaxes out there and come in to
                                polarize the people: those who beleive and those who do not, both
                                having never seen and analyzed the crop circle in question.

                                I will stop there the crop circle and continue in a next post later
                                and link it to a "possible" eztra-terrestrial origin.




                                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Kees Kromme" <Kees.Kromme@1...> wrote:
                                > Hi Marc, in this way!
                                > I follow this discussion too, as you know(;-)
                                > Perhaps someone on this list can give other viewpoints on your
                                alien-ufo-questions.
                                > greetings kees
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 4:17 PM
                                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                >
                                >
                                > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                and
                                > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                the
                                > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                for
                                > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                this
                                > info in the the aforementioned books).
                                >
                                > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                > diversity in appearence?
                                >
                                > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                Have
                                > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                appearence is
                                > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                Luciferic
                                > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                all
                                > Luciferic influences.
                                >
                                > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                > etheric in nature.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                > >
                                > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                > >
                                > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                > >
                                > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                spiritual
                                > beings, both
                                > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                > alternately, the
                                > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                > using
                                > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                > Ahrimanic
                                > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                > view to
                                > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                of
                                > other
                                > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                > while perhaps
                                > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                to
                                > their
                                > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                ideas
                                > (or
                                > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                of
                                > UFOs
                                > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                > point in time
                                > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                > >
                                > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                Cosmic
                                > Pulse of
                                > > Life.
                                > >
                                > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                >
                                >
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                              • jeff auen
                                Marc, Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 12, 2001
                                  Marc,
                                   
                                  Briefly. As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide ( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects.)  In addition, just the other night on the Learning Channel, they had yet another 2 hour update on UFOs and focused on the Mexico sightings and videos. Since 1991 and into the present, thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well. Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event. Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.
                                   
                                  jeff  
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                  Hi Jeff,

                                  "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                  present culture.

                                  I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                  maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                  senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                  physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                  and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                  tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                  suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                  relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                  deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                  from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                  To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                  previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                  Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                  I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                  life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                  Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                  reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                  arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                  until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                  Marc

                                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                  > Utopia  - name please.
                                  >
                                  > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                  over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                  elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                  the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                  all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                  for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                  this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                  popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                  predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                  >
                                  > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                  is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                  materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                  state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                  chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                  vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                  influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                  there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                  ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                  achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                  all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                  light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                  different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                  true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                  computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                  being next).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jeff
                                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                                  >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                  >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                                  >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                  >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                  >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                  and
                                  >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                  >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                  the
                                  >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                  >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                  for
                                  >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                  this
                                  >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                                  >
                                  >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                  >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                  >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                  >   diversity in appearence?
                                  >
                                  >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                  Have
                                  >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                  >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                  >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                  appearence is
                                  >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                  Luciferic
                                  >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                  all
                                  >   Luciferic influences.
                                  >
                                  >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                  >   etheric in nature.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                  >   >
                                  >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                  >   >
                                  >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                  >   >
                                  >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                  spiritual
                                  >   beings, both
                                  >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                  >   alternately, the
                                  >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                  >   using
                                  >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                  >   Ahrimanic
                                  >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                  >   view to
                                  >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                  of
                                  >   other
                                  >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                  >   while perhaps
                                  >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                  to
                                  >   their
                                  >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                  ideas
                                  >   (or
                                  >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                  of
                                  >   UFOs
                                  >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                  >   point in time
                                  >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                  >   >
                                  >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                  Cosmic
                                  >   Pulse of
                                  >   > Life.
                                  >   >
                                  >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                  ... ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious. One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                    >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                    *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                    >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                    *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                    >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                    ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                    One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                    >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                    *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                    >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                    *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                    Starman

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                    To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                    Hi Jeff,

                                    "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                    present culture.

                                    I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                    maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                    senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                    physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                    and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                    tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                    suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                    relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                    deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                    from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                    To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                    previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                    Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                    I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                    life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                    Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                    reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                    arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                    until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                    Marc

                                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                    > Utopia - name please.
                                    >
                                    > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                    over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                    elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                    the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                    all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                    for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                    this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                    popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                    predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                    >
                                    > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                    is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                    materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                    state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                    chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                    vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                    influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                    there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                                    ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                    achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                    all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                    light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                    different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                    true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                    computer in 1975 and our frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                    being next).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jeff
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                    > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                    > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                    > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                    > Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                    and
                                    > Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                    > epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                    the
                                    > Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                    > planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                    for
                                    > other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                    this
                                    > info in the the aforementioned books).
                                    >
                                    > Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                    > different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                    > a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                    > diversity in appearence?
                                    >
                                    > The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                    Have
                                    > some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                    > system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                    > beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                    appearence is
                                    > diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                    Luciferic
                                    > influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                    all
                                    > Luciferic influences.
                                    >
                                    > Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                    > etheric in nature.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                    > >
                                    > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                    > >
                                    > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                    spiritual
                                    > beings, both
                                    > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                    > alternately, the
                                    > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                    > using
                                    > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                    > Ahrimanic
                                    > > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                    > view to
                                    > > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                    of
                                    > other
                                    > > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                    > while perhaps
                                    > > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                    to
                                    > their
                                    > > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                    ideas
                                    > (or
                                    > > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                    of
                                    > UFOs
                                    > > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                    > point in time
                                    > > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                    > >
                                    > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                    Cosmic
                                    > Pulse of
                                    > > Life.
                                    > >
                                    > > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                  • jeff auen
                                    I am tired of talking to a ghost thinker who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly spiritual and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                      I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation. Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists.  When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy as well. Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.
                                       
                                      Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                       
                                      Jeff Auen
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:51 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                      >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                      *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                      >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                      *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                      >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                      ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                          One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                      >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                      *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                      >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                      *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                      Starman

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                      To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                      Hi Jeff,

                                      "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                      present culture.

                                      I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                      maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                      senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                      physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                      and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                      tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                      suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                      relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                      deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                      from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.

                                      To go back to the subject of the repopulating of Earth in the
                                      previous epochs, was astral travel the only means by which
                                      Saturnians, Jupiterians, Marsians and maybe others came? If yes, then
                                      I don't understand two points: 1. Planet Earth had almost no human
                                      life at a period of the Lemurian epoch according to Steiner; 2.
                                      Racial traits are physical, more imparted by genetics than
                                      reincarnation -- and then Steiner mentions also that at their
                                      arrival, Luciferic forces influenced them throughout the generations
                                      until they were leveled(Occult Science).

                                      Marc

                                      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "jeff auen" <pacbay@h...> wrote:
                                      > Utopia  - name please.
                                      >
                                      > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                      over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                      elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                      the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                      all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                      for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                      this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                      popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                      predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                      >
                                      > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                      is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                      materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                      state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                      chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                      vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                      influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                      there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                      ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                      achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                      all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                      light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                      different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                      true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940, the micro
                                      computer in 1975 and our  frequent landings on the moon (with Mars
                                      being next).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Jeff
                                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                                      >   From: utopia_planetia@h...
                                      >   To: anthroposophy@y...
                                      >   Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:17 AM
                                      >   Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >   Something interesting to consider is that, as Steiner mentions in
                                      >   Occult Science and Occult History is that Saturnians, Jupiterians
                                      and
                                      >   Marsians repopulated the Earth from the Lemurian to the Atlantean
                                      >   epoch. These beings are human, from the same human life wave of
                                      the
                                      >   Earth period. Rudolf Steiner explains that they could not live on
                                      >   planet Earth because of its hostile conditions at the time, and
                                      for
                                      >   other developmental reasons, specific to them (you can find all
                                      this
                                      >   info in the the aforementioned books).
                                      >
                                      >   Likewise, Steiner says that it is these beings that created the
                                      >   different races of the Earth when they came back(therefore
                                      >   a "physical" effect). Can reincarnation only account for such
                                      >   diversity in appearence?
                                      >
                                      >   The question is, could have they come over with "spaceships"?
                                      Have
                                      >   some human beings still remained on these planets of the solar
                                      >   system? According to Steiner in "Occult Science", YES; some human
                                      >   beings, clearly mentioned as "human" stayed over. Their
                                      appearence is
                                      >   diffrent because of the different degrees of Ahrimaninc and
                                      Luciferic
                                      >   influence. Those On Saturn, Steiner mentions, have almost escaped
                                      all
                                      >   Luciferic influences.
                                      >
                                      >   Obviously, their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                      >   etheric in nature.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                      >   >
                                      >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                      >   >
                                      >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                      >   >
                                      >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                      spiritual
                                      >   beings, both
                                      >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                      >   alternately, the
                                      >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                      >   using
                                      >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                      >   Ahrimanic
                                      >   > deception. Overall, I would think it is not possible for either
                                      >   view to
                                      >   > dominate. Together they help us remain open to the possibility
                                      of
                                      >   other
                                      >   > physically based life forms existing elsewhere in the universe,
                                      >   while perhaps
                                      >   > helping us to develop an overall vigilance and discernment as
                                      to
                                      >   their
                                      >   > origins and spiritual significance. I have not read Steiner's
                                      ideas
                                      >   (or
                                      >   > really any ideas for that matter) on the spiritual significance
                                      of
                                      >   UFOs
                                      >   > though, so I can only speak for myself here: I can only at this
                                      >   point in time
                                      >   > maintain vigilant skepticism. >>
                                      >   >
                                      >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                      Cosmic
                                      >   Pulse of
                                      >   > Life.
                                      >   >
                                      >   > Once more, a photo of one of the elementals attached...


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                                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                      ... ******* Tired of talking to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone s opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 2, 2001
                                        >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                        ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                        I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                        >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                        'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                        So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                        >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                        *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                        >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                        *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                        >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                        Jeff Auen

                                        *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                        'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                        Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                        Starman

                                        ----- Original Message -----


                                        >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                        *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                        >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                        *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                        >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                        ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                        One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                        >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                        *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                        >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                        *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                        Starman

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                        To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                        Hi Jeff,

                                        "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                        present culture.

                                        I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                        maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                        senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                        physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                        and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                        tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                        suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                        relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                        deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                        from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                        >
                                        > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                        over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                        elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                        the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                        all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                        for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                        this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                        popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                        predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                        >
                                        > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                        is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                        materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                        state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                        chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                        vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                        influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                        there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like
                                        ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                        achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                        all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                        light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                        different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                        true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                        ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                        > etheric in nature.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                        > >
                                        > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                        > >
                                        > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                        spiritual
                                        > beings, both
                                        > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                        > alternately, the
                                        > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                        > using
                                        > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                        > Ahrimanic
                                        > > deception..... >>
                                        > >
                                        > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                        Cosmic
                                        > Pulse of
                                        > > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...
                                      • jeff auen
                                        Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                          Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss??? I am now curious of your persistence on this one. For the umpteen time: My position based on recurring evidence and metaphysical information about the field and is as follows:
                                           
                                          • There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from other physical planets outside of our solar system.
                                          • There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones. These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs" identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists. Blobs can also be physical ships accelerating and decelerating from beyond light speed to light speed within our atmosphere as filmed in the famous Catalina footage in California
                                          • There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may interact or be using each other)
                                          • There are positive and negative space visitors. Some want to help and some want our resources, biological uniqueness, or other aspects of our soul being.
                                          • The positive or supportive beings are said to be aware of the mystery school elders but do not necessarily interact with them often. Their agenda is extra solar.
                                          • There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them as hallucinations or mental aberrations. Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.
                                          • For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after 1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that goes for Steiner and other esotericists.
                                          That's all folks.
                                           
                                          Jeff Auen
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:46 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                          >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possibility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<

                                          ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'? Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche, I recall.

                                            I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize, and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never mind that for now.


                                          >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists, proponents, and psychic theorists...

                                             'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.
                                             So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe to us here.


                                          >>>When one has interviewed or seen interviews of  military personal, covert ops personal, and other witnesses who have touched, handled and studied "craft" pieces and engine technology, then trying to prove that its all an illusion of Ahriman seems pure fantasy...


                                          *******Name one. All the investigation so far shows the Roswell nuts are the ones inventing pure fantasy. One physical artifact of nonterrestrial source would electrify the scientific world and would be being talked about by every scientist who now dismisses the subject. So where are they? Oh, right, there's lots of them around but it's all being covered up. Give us a break.


                                          >>>Go to Steven Greer's site and the Disclosure Project. His new book and video has over 200 new interviews with govt personal and others who have been involved in crash retrievals, studies of hardware, etc. Talk to Jesse Marcel's son in Nevada for example, who is now an MD, and tell him he did not handle and examine alien artifacts and broken craft pieces when his father brought them home after a crash retrieval. I am sure he will reconsider his direct experience based on your arguments.

                                          *******Never heard of these fellows and no idea who they are, but go ahead and post their web sites. I'll bet it'll eventually be found they have no more evidence than other hoaxers and rumor-spreaders. "The X-Files" is FICTION, Jeff.


                                          >>>Theories are built on all the available evidence not attempts to twist data to fit a metaphysical theory.
                                          Jeff Auen

                                          *******But twisting it to fit a PHYSICAL theory is OK?
                                          'All the evdence' sure does not appear to include Constable's photos, now duplicated by other researchers, based on Steiner's knowledge of the ethers.

                                          Interesting what some people can tolerate or not.

                                          Starman

                                          ----- Original Message -----


                                          >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents, there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...

                                          *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a 'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible middle category.


                                          >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...


                                          *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)


                                          >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc. Jet fighters have flown by them as well.


                                          ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.
                                              One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear and then reappear', hmmm?


                                          >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere, the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical reality for many minutes at an event.<<

                                          *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?


                                          >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.

                                          *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the 'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric physics.

                                          Starman

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: >utopia_planetia@...
                                          To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM
                                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange


                                          Hi Jeff,

                                          "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our
                                          present culture.

                                          I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and
                                          maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have
                                          senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the
                                          physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric
                                          and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use
                                          tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA
                                          suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their
                                          relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a
                                          deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than
                                          from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.


                                          >
                                          > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming
                                          over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other
                                          elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of
                                          the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at
                                          all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here
                                          for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of
                                          this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the
                                          popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts
                                          predate Sci Fi popular concepts.
                                          >
                                          > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth
                                          is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the
                                          materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric
                                          state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the
                                          chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over
                                          vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic
                                          influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know
                                          there are planets and universes  existing that are not physical like
                                          ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have
                                          achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in
                                          all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than
                                          light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a
                                          different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like
                                          true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>
                                          ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more
                                          >   etheric in nature.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >   --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                                          >   >
                                          >   > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                                          >   >
                                          >   > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,
                                          >   >
                                          >   > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of
                                          spiritual
                                          >   beings, both
                                          >   > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                          >   alternately, the
                                          >   > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                          >   using
                                          >   > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the
                                          >   Ahrimanic
                                          >   > deception..... >>
                                          >   >
                                          >   > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The
                                          Cosmic
                                          >   Pulse of
                                          >   > Life... photo of one of the elementals attached...



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                                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                          pacbay@home.com writes:
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                            pacbay@... writes:
                                            << Are there not more interesting subjects to discuss???

                                            *******Than the answer to the UFO enigma and what it reveals about the other
                                            dimensions of living beings alongside us? Well, you're welcome to not discuss
                                            it. Constable and his work based on Steiner has solved the mystery, and had
                                            it duplicated; see the most recent edition of "The Cosmic Pulse of Life",
                                            1990, published by the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.

                                            >>>My position.... is as follows:

                                            There are physical visitors in physical crafts visiting our planet from
                                            other physical planets outside of our solar system....

                                            *******And your evidence? There have never been any physical artifacts found
                                            that science shows are of extraterrestrial origin as with the Mars
                                            meteorites. If you have some, show the scientists. If there is none, that's
                                            very signficant--- because with thousands of UFO reports annually, how could
                                            physical vehicles not leave even one? Instead, what has been observed
                                            repeatedly with a 'substance' left behind like the so-called 'angel hair,
                                            that, some is taken and put in a jar, and it slowly dematerializes right in
                                            the sealed jar. Such accounts are found several times in the UFO literature,
                                            and are very telling---they do NOT point to a physical phenomena.



                                            >>> There are non physical "craft" or vehicles that exit interdimensionally
                                            and are not physical as we know it. These get confused with physical ones.
                                            These craft can manifest as distinct "metallic shapes" apart from the "blobs"
                                            identified by Reich and other bio-orgone theorists....

                                            *******If you mean Constable, his photos do not show 'blobs' but highly
                                            articulated giant single-celled organisms. You attempt to have it both ways
                                            here makes no sense. If something enters our dimension and becomes able to be
                                            photographed, how is it not 'physical'? How does it 'get confused' with
                                            physical ones? They just happen to have the same shapes? That's a pretty
                                            far-fetched coincidence, that there are these physical circular ships coming
                                            from other solar systems and ALSO circular ones from another dimension (see
                                            photo of one attached).



                                            >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric and
                                            mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women into
                                            believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar
                                            evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may
                                            interact or be using each other)

                                            *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are
                                            they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2
                                            theoretical sources?


                                            >> There are too many sightings monthly to pooh pooh them all and label them
                                            as hallucinations or mental aberrations.

                                            *******Which no one here did.

                                            >>Most researchers agree that at 10% are unexplainable and many have physical
                                            attributes and are not projections of the witnesses.

                                            *******But of course a materializing elemental being would not be.


                                            >>> For some reason there are gaps and a lack of forthcoming knowledge of
                                            this phenomena from occult sources. Why I do not know but post modern (after
                                            1950) information cannot be used to explain this phenomena entirely. And that
                                            goes for Steiner and other esotericists.

                                            That's all folks.

                                            *******No, Jeff, you're not on your list now and so that's NOT all. Just
                                            because you think anthroposophy, because Steiner died in 1925, can't be used
                                            to understand phenomena that began a few years after his death, doesn't mean
                                            everyone has to agree with you. He spoke of seeing bell-shaped astral forms
                                            in the atmosphere and he spoke of the Ahrimanic deception and how it would
                                            take over our science. Trevor Constable's work is a landmark acheivement,
                                            using Steiner and Wachsmuth and Wilhelm Reich and Radionics to create a true
                                            scientific discovery of the elementals and make them visible. His showing
                                            that the alleged physical craft are elementals made to appear that way as
                                            part of the Ahrimanic deception is just as important.


                                            Starman


                                            >>>I am tired of talking to a "ghost thinker" who is not open to any possi
                                            bility other than a strictly "spiritual" and psychic interpretation.<<


                                            ******* 'Tired of talking' to us, meaning you have no interest in anyone's
                                            opinion but your own. And so, everyone who wishes to consider a possible
                                            spiritual dimension of any phenomema is to be dismissed as a 'ghost thinker'?
                                            Hey Jeff, have you ever heard of a guy named Steiner? Boy, you wouldn't like
                                            him either, then. He was dismissed with the same epithet by Lyndon LaRouche,
                                            I recall.


                                            I believe, Jeff, it is you who is showing yourself not open to
                                            possibilities. It is certainly peculiar how you avoid discussion of all the
                                            points raised that show that these things materialize and then dematerialize,
                                            and call the assertion that they do so a 'psychic' theory, once again showing
                                            you think only in 2 categories: 1.)physical or 2.)non-physical, and never the
                                            twain shall meet. It is interesting from a Reichian perspective, but never
                                            mind that for now.



                                            >>>Now I guess there are three categories- skeptical scientists,
                                            proponents, and psychic theorists...


                                            'Proponents' of what? I assume you mean the ships-from-other-planets
                                            theory. So to think about UFOs you have to be a proponent of that. I see.

                                            So, are Jacques Vallee and J. Allen Hynek, both of whom wrote
                                            extensively about UFOs as a para-physical phenomenon because of the observed
                                            materializations and dematerializations, to be classed as 'psychic
                                            theorists'? Interesting dualism, but neither man argued that the phenomenon
                                            is only immaterial, as for some strange reason you feel motivated to ascribe
                                            to us here.




                                            >>>As mentioned in earlier posts with other AP and metaphysical proponents,
                                            there is just no way non physical beings can demonstrate the physical
                                            characteristics now being videotaped worldwide...


                                            *******Jeff, we don't seem to be getting through to you. Do you think a
                                            'ghost' that can become dense enough to show up on a photograph is ALWAYS
                                            that densely physical? You seem to have a real problem conceiving that
                                            something can become physical (materialize) and then go back again
                                            (de-materialize)---I don't know why, with all the Star Trek-type stuff you
                                            accept. For you, it has to be either physical OR non-physical, no possible
                                            middle category.



                                            >>>( or in possession of the govt. That the US govt, England, Russia, and
                                            possibly other military branches have hard evidence is beyond question from
                                            eyewitness reports and actual work on such projects...



                                            *******It is certainly questionable, all the so-called 'evidence' being
                                            produced having come from people who never worked at the military facilities
                                            they claimed they saw things at (hoaxsters, nuts, etc.)



                                            >>>... thousands have witnessed disc and bell shaped objects and many have
                                            clearly videotaped them while standing on a crowded street with hundreds
                                            watching the same event. This objects reflect the sunlight off their
                                            surfaces, have shape, stay in view for 15 to 30 minutes, hover, go slowly
                                            forward or backwards, disappear in an instant only to suddenly reappear, etc.
                                            Jet fighters have flown by them as well.



                                            ******See above to avoid repeating the (to others) obvious.

                                            One thing: if you can only imagine these as physical
                                            ships-from-other-planets, how do you imagine that they 'instantly disappear
                                            and then reappear', hmmm?



                                            >>>Now if these were etheric or astral ships intruding into our atmosphere,
                                            the power of these beings must be great indeed to project into physical
                                            reality for many minutes at an event.<<


                                            *******Yes. Is that beyond imagining for some reason?



                                            >>>Nothing in the past annuals of esoteric or religious literature has
                                            indicated such an intrusion into dense material reality.


                                            *******Interesting assertion. What basis do you have for it? The White
                                            Brotherhood, of course, form bodies for themselves which last for years if
                                            needed. Do you recall how Babaji materialized an entire temple for Lahira
                                            Mahasaya to be initiated in in Autobiography Of A Yogi? Or how about the
                                            'tulpa' or thought-form monk Lady Alexandra David-Neel materialized as
                                            described in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet? There's much other evidence that
                                            needs to be summarily dismissed to avoid what Constable proved using etheric
                                            physics.


                                            Starman


                                            ----- Original Message -----

                                            From: >utopia_planetia@...

                                            To: >anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com

                                            Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:55 AM

                                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                            Hi Jeff,

                                            "Ship" does convey the dense idea of mode of travel because of our

                                            present culture.

                                            I beleive humanity, from all the planets of the solar system and

                                            maybe beyond, shares the condition of objectivity. Individuals have

                                            senses more or less projected outwardly -- an "I" aware of the

                                            physical surroundings and subjected to it by its physical, etheric

                                            and astral body. In this view, human beings not from Earth must use

                                            tools, such as ways of transportation, but surely not in the way NASA

                                            suggests. Probably more in etheric and elemental ways. Their

                                            relationship with the objective world must be tied in and felt at a

                                            deep inner level. Astral travel, without any outward support than

                                            from the beings's own energy must be conceived as well.



                                            > A very interesting idea. I don't think these fellows are coming

                                            over from these planets in "ships" but may be interacting in other

                                            elemental and etheric ways. There is a notion in ufology that some of

                                            the visitors are actually interdimensional travelers- not physical at

                                            all but can slow their etheric substances down and materialize here

                                            for a limited length of time. We also should remember that much of

                                            this "contact" information was published between 1950-1960 before the

                                            popularization of Star Trek and Star Wars so many of these concepts

                                            predate Sci Fi popular concepts.

                                            >

                                            > . We must also remember that our present condition on earth

                                            is "mistake". Our evolutionary plan did not include living in the

                                            materialized earth as it exists now but more in the "chemical etheric

                                            state" (above hydrogen). We "dropped" down and make dense the

                                            chemical etheric substances into our present earthly substances over

                                            vast periods of time due to the Luciferic and later the Ahrimanic

                                            influences (the Fall from Heaven or the "ethers" ). For all we know

                                            there are planets and universes existing that are not physical like

                                            ours but have gone through their evolutionary cycles and beings have

                                            achieved human status. And they are now investigating the universe in

                                            all levels of creation. This would again explain faster than

                                            light "technologies" since they are "living" and functioning at a

                                            different frequency- faster than physical light. This may sound like

                                            true science fiction but so was the computer in 1940....>

                                            ...their physical bodies cannot be entirely dense -- more

                                            > etheric in nature.

                                            >


                                            > > In a message dated 8/7/01 8:04:56 PM, JadMcCurdy@a... writes:

                                            > > << Hi Dr. Starman and Jeff,

                                            > > An interesting related exchange RE: the incarnation of spiritual
                                            beings, both

                                            > > in terms of the possibility of actual physical UFOs and,
                                            alternately, the

                                            > > likelihood that these manifestations are actually astral beings
                                            using

                                            > > "elementals" to materialize their essence as an aspect of the

                                            > Ahrimanic deception..... >>

                                            > >

                                            > > Try reading Trevor James Constable's work, especially The

                                            Cosmic Pulse of Life... photo of one of the elementals attached... >>
                                          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                            [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter), let s
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 3, 2001
                                              [Unable to display image]To counter the resistance this Ahrimanic medium has
                                              to allowing anything creative like images through (only the dead letter),
                                              let's try inserting the image directly in the e-mail. More and more lists are
                                              either refusing to allow attachments or converting the whole to MIME format
                                              in which the image is destroyed, it seems.

                                              One of the elementals photographed by Constable.
                                            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                              pacbay@home.com writes:
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 4, 2001
                                                pacbay@... writes:
                                                << Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                                intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                                detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                                collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                                develop some modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                                Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                                craft objects. >>

                                                *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                                so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                                pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                                these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                                they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                                lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                                Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                                >>> There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                                and

                                                mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                                into

                                                believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                                evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                                interact or be using each other)

                                                *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                                they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                                theoretical sources?

                                                >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                                technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                                been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                                Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                                agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                                *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                                has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                                >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                                radiation effects affect they depart.


                                                *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                                do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                                what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                                >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                                and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                                *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                                PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                                with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                                years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                                as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                                of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                                Ahrimanic mythology.


                                                >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                                out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                                *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                                read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                                conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                                on the phenomena.


                                                >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                                hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                                the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                                *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                                sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                                NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                                Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                                what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                                PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                                whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                                that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                                that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                                "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                                science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                                view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                                >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                                inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                                50's.

                                                *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                                anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                                >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                                descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                                influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                                to say the least.

                                                ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                                Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                                and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                                look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                                Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                                by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                                really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                                Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                                Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                                how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                                This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                                think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                                past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                                indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                                are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                                fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                                not involved in working with it.

                                                Starman
                                              • jeff auen
                                                I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try: National UFO Clearing Center Bufora-British version of the above Ufoinfo
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 5, 2001
                                                  I thought anyone could use the appropriate search word and find what they want. Try:
                                                  National UFO Clearing Center
                                                  Bufora-British version of the above
                                                  Ufoinfo
                                                  Center for UFO Studies
                                                  UFOs.about.com
                                                  Cseti-    Steven Greer's site outlining the Disclosure Project- the Best Evidence Site.
                                                   
                                                  and selected sites among the 16,315 sites dedicated to the subject covering the zany to the serious. Good hunting.
                                                   
                                                  Jeff
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:37 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: UFO/Astral Being Exchange

                                                  pacbay@... writes:
                                                  <<  Read Lt.Col Corso book on Roswell. He headed the Eisenhower army
                                                  intelligence team to de-engineer the Roswell crash evidence and describes in
                                                  detail where the crash object and alien bodies were iced and examined;
                                                  collected, stored and what corporations used alien technology in the 50's to
                                                  develop some  modern optics and computerization. Watch the tape interview of
                                                  Jesse Marcel's son (now a MD) who describes in detail his handling of alien
                                                  craft objects.  >>

                                                  *******I mentioned these names (I note you still will not produce web sites
                                                  so we can verify your supposed 'evidence' for ourselves, like that fake 'ufo'
                                                  pic you posted here awhile ago). It's been pointed out to me that none of
                                                  these people came forward with their stories before the late 1970s. Why did
                                                  they have nothing to say for 30 years if it was so important? Scared of their
                                                  lives for revealing classified info? Why all of a sudden, after the latest
                                                  Roswell rumors started about 1978, are they so brave now?


                                                    >>>  There are beings that are far craftier than humans that use etheric
                                                  and

                                                    mental technologies to deceive researchers and conventional men or women
                                                  into

                                                    believing certain ufo experiences. These beings do not belong our solar

                                                    evolution and are not connected with Ahrimanic stream (though they may

                                                    interact or be using each other)

                                                    *******They're crafty deceivers but are not Ahrimanic beings? Then what are

                                                    they, and why are they deceptive?? And how are they related to your other 2

                                                    theoretical sources?

                                                  >>> Who know for sure what their agendas are but the definably use mind
                                                  technology and hypnosis to control people for the reports. There has never
                                                  been any talk or discussion of Ahriman or any supra spiritual Beings ala
                                                  Steiner. It is possible and probable that they come with a different solar
                                                  agenda of their own and don't really care about Ahriman or others.<<<

                                                  *******I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean, especially 'there
                                                  has never been any talk or discussion of Ahriman'. By whom? Huh?


                                                  >>>I have yet to hear of any elemental that can leave magnetic traces or
                                                  radiation effects affect they depart.


                                                  *******What ones do you know of and how do you know what they do and don't
                                                  do? Why do you think it's impossible for energy beings to emit energy? And
                                                  what about the 'fairy rings', for the observed effects of legend?


                                                  >> Steiner was not all knowing. He did not speak of computers, videophones
                                                  and rockets to the moon yet may have "seen" them coming.

                                                  *******You think his science did not provide for such things? Their
                                                  PRINCIPLES were all known in his time. Perhaps you don't study him at all,
                                                  with such a dismissive attitude--- but I do, and I see nothing in the last 75
                                                  years that says 'Oh we have to throw out the principles of spiritual science
                                                  as inadequate.' Quite the opposite, in fact: the so-called 'scientific' grasp
                                                  of things, the illusion he warned against, grows stronger daily with its
                                                  Ahrimanic mythology.


                                                  >>>I am not interested in promoting a "personal opinion" but only pointing
                                                  out what the mass of written reports can only lead one to deduce.<<

                                                  *******I'm afraid it's what only YOU can be led to deduce, not "one". I've
                                                  read every UFO report I've seen for 30 years and I come to different
                                                  conclusions, and every person has a right to no matter what you try to impose
                                                  on the phenomena.


                                                  >>>One or two statements by two individuals - Steiner and Constable - do not
                                                  hold enough weight to the over 10 thousand books (some serious, some not) and
                                                  the over 100,000 first hand reports of witnesses and contactees.

                                                  *******Now this is just complete dishonesty and you know it. You're making it
                                                  sound as if ALL reports are in contrast to Constable's work when absolutely
                                                  NONE are, there merely being different INTERPRETATIONS of what is seen--- and
                                                  Constable's infrared photos extending the field of vision to make visible
                                                  what the other authors you cite are ignorant of. Also, that Constable, who
                                                  PHOTOGRAPHED UFOs in the invisible state hundreds of times over 40 years and
                                                  whose work has been REPLICATED, merely made some "statements." And clearly
                                                  that's all Steiner's work is to you, is "statements" made in a book. Well,
                                                  that's too bad. For some of us, it's far more than that. A few of his
                                                  "statements" are worth volumes of work by uninspired materialist science, or
                                                  science fiction for that matter, made by people with a quite limited point of
                                                  view compared to a real clairvoyant's.


                                                  >>>Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                                  inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                                  50's.

                                                  *******Oh, just like that, you dismiss it all? Why are you on an
                                                  anthroposophy list, then? As of 1950 it's out of date. Rubbish, I say.


                                                  >>>Etheric theory in AP is weak and undeveloped; astral phenomena
                                                  descriptions are vague and scattered; references to Ahriman and how this
                                                  influence works directly in the world (not just in man) is also circumspect
                                                  to say the least.

                                                  ********I would say the last statements are pure unadulterated applesauce.
                                                  Try reading Wachsmuth's book, The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos, Earth
                                                  and Man, Ernst Lehrs' Man Or Matter, and Ernst Marti's The Four Ethers. Then
                                                  look at the work done making the ethers visible by electro-photography in The
                                                  Loom of Creation by Denis Milner and Edward Smart, Sensitive Crystallization
                                                  by Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and others, and the capillary dynomolysis work. Then
                                                  really READ the descriptions of the astral world in Steiner's Theosophy and
                                                  Occult Science so that you can see them yourself as anyone can. Read
                                                  Constable's work showing how Reich was working with the Chemical Ether and
                                                  how the elementals are exactly what etheric physics predicts would be found.

                                                      This is not a religion where things are taken on faith, but a science. I
                                                  think your dismissal of all the scientific work done into the ethers over the
                                                  past 80 years is an insult to Steiner and all those working out of his
                                                  indications. You're saying all this simply because you want to believe UFOs
                                                  are ships from other planets and etheric physics seems to show they are in
                                                  fact from right here. This is just more put-downs of anthroposophy by people
                                                  not involved in working with it.

                                                  Starman


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                                                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                                  This statement in the argument: Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 8, 2001
                                                    This statement in the argument:

                                                    Anthroposophy can be used for some paranormal interpretations but it is
                                                    inadequate and antiquated in dealing with phenomena now happening since the
                                                    50's.

                                                    Bradford writes;

                                                    There seems to be a profound inadequate comprehension of how deep the
                                                    research is that was launched by this 20th century initiate

                                                    k@ it would be interesting to research what Steiner said about an Ahriman School (under!the earth, GA240, 20-7-1924) and what blach magic is in his opinion. he also speaks about the undernature fenomena, about mechanical spiders made by man with high intelligence and much more..
                                                    perhaps he said more on several items then we know, while the words he used are a bit different from the vocabulair used by the ones who think in ufo-terms.
                                                    gretings kees

                                                    *******Yes, that's the problem: accepting the ideas of Ahrimanic science makes it quite difficult to think in terms of spiritual science. One has to overcome the brainwashing and reach quite new ways of thinking.
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