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On Joukahainen and Yoga

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  • Mikko Nuuttila
    Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring to the sense of
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 23 5:33 AM
      Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring to the sense of discipline in yoga. In my own view, yoga refers also to the word Joukahainen in the Finnish epic Kalevala, who is a young person opposing sage Väinämöinen. Joukahainen could also refer to the Finnish word joukko, which means group. Väinä means dead in etymology and maybe it also refers to the word väki, which could mean people or force. Another thing Joukahainen does besides opposing Väinämöinen is to go skiing after a deer (Hirven hiihto).

      Rudolf Steiner had his own views concerning Kalevala.

      Original mythology can be found if you Google for Ior Bock or Bock Saga.

      Mikko


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    • Mikko Nuuttila
      Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring to the sense of
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 23 5:33 AM
        Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring to the sense of discipline in yoga. In my own view, yoga refers also to the word Joukahainen in the Finnish epic Kalevala, who is a young person opposing sage Väinämöinen. Joukahainen could also refer to the Finnish word joukko, which means group. Väinä means dead in etymology and maybe it also refers to the word väki, which could mean people or force. Another thing Joukahainen does besides opposing Väinämöinen is to go skiing after a deer (Hirven hiihto).

        Rudolf Steiner had his own views concerning Kalevala.

        Original mythology can be found if you Google for Ior Bock or Bock Saga.

        Mikko


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      • Stephen Hale
        ... also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring to the sense of discipline in yoga. In my own view, yoga refers also to the word
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 23 12:43 PM
          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has
          also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring
          to the sense of discipline in yoga. In my own view, yoga refers also
          to the word Joukahainen in the Finnish epic Kalevala, who is a young
          person opposing sage Väinämöinen. Joukahainen could also refer to the
          Finnish word joukko, which means group. Väinä means dead in etymology
          and maybe it also refers to the word väki, which could mean people or
          force. Another thing Joukahainen does besides opposing Väinämöinen is
          to go skiing after a deer (Hirven hiihto).
          >
          > Rudolf Steiner had his own views concerning Kalevala.

          Rudolf Steiner's views concerning Kalevala was to dig deep into the
          spiritual-scientific parameters of this national epic, which he did
          prior to going to Finland for the first time in April of 1912. The
          influence of this epic poem for anthroposophy would only continue to
          grow, and even be an inspiration for Steiner's great work of
          art, "The Representative of Man." Here are some words to the effect
          of its importance, and the esotericism of the finnish nation.

          "During the last few weeks, a number of friends from Germany have
          been with me on a visit to a field of theosophical work abroad — to
          Helsingfors, in Finland. A visit of this kind to a far-off field of
          work always brings a realisation of the unity of theosophical life
          all over the globe and also of its deep roots in the culture of the
          present day. It meant a great deal to me when our friends in Finland
          expressed the wish that I should speak to them about the venerable
          Finnish epic, "Kalewala." As this wish was conveyed to me some time
          ago, I was able to occupy myself from the vantage-point of occultism,
          with this remarkable poem of the Fins — who are themselves, in many
          respects, a unique people. And this brought to the fore once again,
          things of which I have spoken on other occasions, here and also
          elsewhere. A very definite experience comes to us when, independently
          of everything men have hitherto known concerning the spiritual worlds
          and have, in their own way, expressed in words, we ourselves strive
          for deeper insight into those worlds and man's relationship to them,
          and ask: How are we to understand what is contained in the many folk-
          traditions that have been preserved through the centuries? How are we
          to apply to these recorded traditions the knowledge we have acquired
          concerning the supersensible world? Although their language differs
          from that in which they have to be presented today, biblical and
          other records clearly based upon occult foundations, are expressions,
          issuing from ancient times and from manifold periods of human
          evolution, of wisdom and knowledge which it is possible for us to
          rediscover today. These ancient records present a new aspect and seem
          to be imbued with a new power when we realise that in and from those
          same worlds to which we aspire along the path to spiritual knowledge
          and to Initiation, great revelations have been given to the world in
          different epochs and in multifarious ways.

          We may well feel that the venerable Finnish epic, "Kalewala," has a
          special and unique occult significance. My own experience was very
          vivid and definite. This Finnish epic has been translated into every
          European language but it differs fundamentally and significantly from
          all other epic poems; no comparison with any of them is possible."

          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0133/19120423p01.html

          Concerning the Origin and Nature of the Finnish Nation

          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0158/19141109p01.html
        • Mikko Nuuttila
          The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner says, and they were called the
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 23 10:33 PM
            The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited by a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.

            Mikko


            To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
            From: sardisian01@...
            Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:43:23 +0000
            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

            --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@. ..>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Yoga derives from the Sanskrit word yokh that means union. It has
            also been thought that it means the word yoke in English, referring
            to the sense of discipline in yoga. In my own view, yoga refers also
            to the word Joukahainen in the Finnish epic Kalevala, who is a young
            person opposing sage Väinämöinen. Joukahainen could also refer to the
            Finnish word joukko, which means group. Väinä means dead in etymology
            and maybe it also refers to the word väki, which could mean people or
            force. Another thing Joukahainen does besides opposing Väinämöinen is
            to go skiing after a deer (Hirven hiihto).
            >
            > Rudolf Steiner had his own views concerning Kalevala.

            Rudolf Steiner's views concerning Kalevala was to dig deep into the
            spiritual-scientifi c parameters of this national epic, which he did
            prior to going to Finland for the first time in April of 1912. The
            influence of this epic poem for anthroposophy would only continue to
            grow, and even be an inspiration for Steiner's great work of
            art, "The Representative of Man." Here are some words to the effect
            of its importance, and the esotericism of the finnish nation.

            "During the last few weeks, a number of friends from Germany have
            been with me on a visit to a field of theosophical work abroad — to
            Helsingfors, in Finland. A visit of this kind to a far-off field of
            work always brings a realisation of the unity of theosophical life
            all over the globe and also of its deep roots in the culture of the
            present day. It meant a great deal to me when our friends in Finland
            expressed the wish that I should speak to them about the venerable
            Finnish epic, "Kalewala." As this wish was conveyed to me some time
            ago, I was able to occupy myself from the vantage-point of occultism,
            with this remarkable poem of the Fins — who are themselves, in many
            respects, a unique people. And this brought to the fore once again,
            things of which I have spoken on other occasions, here and also
            elsewhere. A very definite experience comes to us when, independently
            of everything men have hitherto known concerning the spiritual worlds
            and have, in their own way, expressed in words, we ourselves strive
            for deeper insight into those worlds and man's relationship to them,
            and ask: How are we to understand what is contained in the many folk-
            traditions that have been preserved through the centuries? How are we
            to apply to these recorded traditions the knowledge we have acquired
            concerning the supersensible world? Although their language differs
            from that in which they have to be presented today, biblical and
            other records clearly based upon occult foundations, are expressions,
            issuing from ancient times and from manifold periods of human
            evolution, of wisdom and knowledge which it is possible for us to
            rediscover today. These ancient records present a new aspect and seem
            to be imbued with a new power when we realise that in and from those
            same worlds to which we aspire along the path to spiritual knowledge
            and to Initiation, great revelations have been given to the world in
            different epochs and in multifarious ways.

            We may well feel that the venerable Finnish epic, "Kalewala," has a
            special and unique occult significance. My own experience was very
            vivid and definite. This Finnish epic has been translated into every
            European language but it differs fundamentally and significantly from
            all other epic poems; no comparison with any of them is possible."

            http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ GA/GA0133/ 19120423p01. html

            Concerning the Origin and Nature of the Finnish Nation

            http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ GA/GA0158/ 19141109p01. html




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          • Stephen Hale
            ... Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish language according to
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 24 7:54 PM
              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word
              Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner
              says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish
              language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as
              the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language
              according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not
              expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-
              hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited by
              a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.
              >
              > Mikko

              It appears that Longfellow was inspired by the Kalevala with his epic
              poem, "The Song of Hiawatha", written in 1855. Yet, the Kalevala
              hadn't yet been translated into English. This wouldn't happen for
              another thirty-three years. So, what might have inspired Longfellow
              to write his great american epic?

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Hiawatha
            • Stephen Hale
              ... by ... epic ... Longfellow ... The powers of understanding and reason that have brought humankind to its present advanced state are the result of an
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 24 8:00 PM
                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word
                > Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner
                > says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish
                > language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as
                > the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language
                > according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not
                > expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-
                > hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited
                by
                > a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.
                > >
                > > Mikko
                >
                > It appears that Longfellow was inspired by the Kalevala with his
                epic
                > poem, "The Song of Hiawatha", written in 1855. Yet, the Kalevala
                > hadn't yet been translated into English. This wouldn't happen for
                > another thirty-three years. So, what might have inspired
                Longfellow
                > to write his great american epic?
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Hiawatha


                "The powers of understanding and reason that have brought humankind
                to its present "advanced" state are the result of an evolution. The
                present powers of the soul have developed from others. Our present
                soul forces are limited to what can be perceived of the external
                world by the senses. But originally humankind, which had to do
                without science in the modern sense, without the use of the intellect
                in the modern sense---humankind, with its primal powers of soul that
                existed in the depths of every individual folk, saw into the
                foundations of existence, into a region that lies supersensibly
                behind the sensible. Clairvoyant powers once belonged to the souls of
                all folk groups. Present-day powers of reasoning and understanding,
                our present way of thinking and perceiving has evolved, has been
                formed from these clairvoyant powers. The soul forces that we can
                call in a certain sense clairvoyant powers were such that the human
                being felt at the same time: I, myself, am not the one who is
                thinking or feeling within me. With this entire body and soul human
                beings felt themselves devoted or given over to higher, supersensible
                powers working and living within them. In this way human beings felt
                themselves to be like vessels through which supersensible powers
                spoke. We see the meaning of humankind's continuing development in
                light of this. Human beings would have remained dependent beings
                able to feel themselves only as sheaths, as vessels for higher powers
                and beings, had they not advanced to the use of their own
                understanding and reason. Through the use of their intellect human
                beings have become more independent, but at the same time cut off, in
                a certain way, from the spiritual world for a while during their
                development; they have been cut off from the supersensible background
                of existence.

                In the future this will change again. The further back we go the
                deeper the human soul was able to see into the background of
                existence through the use of clairvoyant powers. Such a soul could
                see how, out of this background of existence, those powers came forth
                which were at work on the human being. The human soul could see back
                to that point in time when earthly conditions were entirely different
                from today's, when the forms of living beings were much more mobile,
                much more subject to a kind of metamorphosis. We must go back a long
                way from what is called the human cultural epoch of present-day
                humanity."

                From: The Essence of National Epics, with special reference to the
                Kalevala, April 9, 1912, Helsingfors, Finland
              • Stephen Hale
                The powers of understanding and reason that have brought humankind to its present advanced state are the result of an evolution. The present powers of the
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 24 8:40 PM
                  "The powers of understanding and reason that have brought humankind
                  to its present "advanced" state are the result of an evolution. The
                  present powers of the soul have developed from others. Our present
                  soul forces are limited to what can be perceived of the external
                  world by the senses. But originally humankind, which had to do
                  without science in the modern sense, without the use of the intellect
                  in the modern sense---humankind, with its primal powers of soul that
                  existed in the depths of every individual folk, saw into the
                  foundations of existence, into a region that lies supersensibly
                  behind the sensible. Clairvoyant powers once belonged to the souls of
                  all folk groups. Present-day powers of reasoning and understanding,
                  our present way of thinking and perceiving has evolved, has been
                  formed from these clairvoyant powers. The soul forces that we can
                  call in a certain sense clairvoyant powers were such that the human
                  being felt at the same time: I, myself, am not the one who is
                  thinking or feeling within me. With this entire body and soul human
                  beings felt themselves devoted or given over to higher, supersensible
                  powers working and living within them. In this way human beings felt
                  themselves to be like vessels through which supersensible powers
                  spoke. We see the meaning of humankind's continuing development in
                  light of this. Human beings would have remained dependent beings
                  able to feel themselves only as sheaths, as vessels for higher powers
                  and beings, had they not advanced to the use of their own
                  understanding and reason. Through the use of their intellect human
                  beings have become more independent, but at the same time cut off, in
                  a certain way, from the spiritual world for a while during their
                  development; they have been cut off from the supersensible background
                  of existence.

                  In the future this will change again. The further back we go the
                  deeper the human soul was able to see into the background of
                  existence through the use of clairvoyant powers. Such a soul could
                  see how, out of this background of existence, those powers came forth
                  which were at work on the human being. The human soul could see back
                  to that point in time when earthly conditions were entirely different
                  from today's, when the forms of living beings were much more mobile,
                  much more subject to a kind of metamorphosis. We must go back a long
                  way from what is called the human cultural epoch of present-day
                  humanity." - GA158, April 9, 1912

                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                  <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word
                  > Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner
                  > says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish
                  > language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as
                  > the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language
                  > according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not
                  > expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-
                  > hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited
                  by
                  > a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.
                  > >
                  > > Mikko
                  >
                  > It appears that Longfellow was inspired by the Kalevala with his
                  epic
                  > poem, "The Song of Hiawatha", written in 1855. Yet, the Kalevala
                  > hadn't yet been translated into English. This wouldn't happen for
                  > another thirty-three years. So, what might have inspired
                  Longfellow
                  > to write his great american epic?
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Hiawatha
                  >
                • Mikko Nuuttila
                  The original Bock Saga that includes such a figure as Väinämöinen tells how Kalevala may have been born as stories in Uudenmaa (Oden s land) that surrounds
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 24 10:41 PM
                    The original Bock Saga that includes such a figure as Väinämöinen tells how Kalevala may have been born as stories in Uudenmaa (Oden's land) that surrounds Hel (Helsinki). The Bock Saga, however, is about traditions that were followed for real, Ior Bock claims. The Bock family was known as the family of Piru ("devil") and it was the leader of Finland and the whole ancient world before the time of Atlantis (allt land is = all land ice = Ice Age). Piru really means pi ru, the peace of the circle (pi). Oden's land was one big circle leading other circle countries. In Peru, one pilot found the remains of a city consisting of large circles. It is described in a book called Atlantis in the Andes. They are like the Olympian circles (describing the circle countries). The life system in those days was such that conception of children was arranged according to classes in society. Some people drank the semen of many others and became conceivers. Everybody drank their own semen. Similarly for women. The semen supposedly went to the brain like in the Taoist cultivation of energy through the spine and the "pearl" became horns inside the brain. One can see in the brain cavities even today something like horns there. Väinämöinen drank the semen out of his own sons. Ancestral magic? Did these things contribute to the ancient type of clairvoyance? Possibly. It seems today there were constant orgies, but this thing was regarded as sacred in the ancient world. Leo Nygren (Lion New Grain) has written a book about these practises in English called the Master Plan. He sells it from his home, I think, the email is leo.nygren@....

                    Mikko


                    To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                    From: sardisian01@...
                    Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 03:40:24 +0000
                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                    "The powers of understanding and reason that have brought humankind
                    to its present "advanced" state are the result of an evolution. The
                    present powers of the soul have developed from others. Our present
                    soul forces are limited to what can be perceived of the external
                    world by the senses. But originally humankind, which had to do
                    without science in the modern sense, without the use of the intellect
                    in the modern sense---humankind, with its primal powers of soul that
                    existed in the depths of every individual folk, saw into the
                    foundations of existence, into a region that lies supersensibly
                    behind the sensible. Clairvoyant powers once belonged to the souls of
                    all folk groups. Present-day powers of reasoning and understanding,
                    our present way of thinking and perceiving has evolved, has been
                    formed from these clairvoyant powers. The soul forces that we can
                    call in a certain sense clairvoyant powers were such that the human
                    being felt at the same time: I, myself, am not the one who is
                    thinking or feeling within me. With this entire body and soul human
                    beings felt themselves devoted or given over to higher, supersensible
                    powers working and living within them. In this way human beings felt
                    themselves to be like vessels through which supersensible powers
                    spoke. We see the meaning of humankind's continuing development in
                    light of this. Human beings would have remained dependent beings
                    able to feel themselves only as sheaths, as vessels for higher powers
                    and beings, had they not advanced to the use of their own
                    understanding and reason. Through the use of their intellect human
                    beings have become more independent, but at the same time cut off, in
                    a certain way, from the spiritual world for a while during their
                    development; they have been cut off from the supersensible background
                    of existence.

                    In the future this will change again. The further back we go the
                    deeper the human soul was able to see into the background of
                    existence through the use of clairvoyant powers. Such a soul could
                    see how, out of this background of existence, those powers came forth
                    which were at work on the human being. The human soul could see back
                    to that point in time when earthly conditions were entirely different
                    from today's, when the forms of living beings were much more mobile,
                    much more subject to a kind of metamorphosis. We must go back a long
                    way from what is called the human cultural epoch of present-day
                    humanity." - GA158, April 9, 1912

                    --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen Hale"
                    <sardisian01@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word
                    > Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner
                    > says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish
                    > language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as
                    > the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language
                    > according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not
                    > expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-
                    > hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited
                    by
                    > a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.
                    > >
                    > > Mikko
                    >
                    > It appears that Longfellow was inspired by the Kalevala with his
                    epic
                    > poem, "The Song of Hiawatha", written in 1855. Yet, the Kalevala
                    > hadn't yet been translated into English. This wouldn't happen for
                    > another thirty-three years. So, what might have inspired
                    Longfellow
                    > to write his great american epic?
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha
                    >




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                  • Howard Berg
                    As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard, Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don t know.  But the Kalevala had been translated
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 25 12:32 AM
                      As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard, Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don't know.  But the Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages before he wrote Hiawatha, so he may have found it in one of them.
                       
                      Howard


                      From: Stephen Hale <sardisian01@...>
                      To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:54:58 PM
                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                      --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@. ..>
                      wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > The threefold element of the etheric body RRRUUO, in the word
                      Ruotsi, means Sweden. It then was adopted by the Slavs as Steiner
                      says, and they were called the Russians. Ruotsin kieli, the Swedish
                      language according to Ior Bock's family is "root sing" language, as
                      the Swedish language has this singing quality. The English language
                      according to Bock seems to have Finnish roots as well. He does not
                      expound on it so much, but some examples can be thought of: deer-
                      hirvi, churn-kirnuta, ski-hiihtää. At least England was inhabited by
                      a tribe originally coming from Finland, he teaches.
                      >
                      > Mikko

                      It appears that Longfellow was inspired by the Kalevala with his epic
                      poem, "The Song of Hiawatha", written in 1855. Yet, the Kalevala
                      hadn't yet been translated into English. This wouldn't happen for
                      another thirty-three years. So, what might have inspired Longfellow
                      to write his great american epic?

                      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha


                    • Stephen Hale
                      ... Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don t know.  But the Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages before he wrote
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 26 10:18 PM
                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Howard Berg <hberg09@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard,
                        Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don't know.  But the
                        Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages before
                        he wrote Hiawatha, so he may have found it in one of them.
                        >
                        > Howard

                        Longfellow consistently refused to acknowledge any awareness of the
                        existence of the Kalevala, and a study of its development through the
                        efforts of Elias Lonnrot, beginning in 1827, would seem to indicate
                        that it was not known in the English language before 1888, when it was
                        first presented several years after Longfellow's death.

                        It is known that Longfellow's, "The Song of Hiawatha" in 1855 was
                        panned and parodied even before its publication. Read what the critic
                        of the New York Times wrote about such an uninteresting subject in the
                        link below. Brutal stuff, but very telling about the nature of the
                        anglo-americans who had put the remaining tribes on segregated
                        reservations after committing their acts of genocide.

                        I find that the work of Lonnrot in Finland in the 19th century
                        coincides very much with the transcendentalist movement in america, and
                        these two folk epics are linked strongly with the materialism that came
                        forth in that century. Lonnrot saw that something would be lost
                        forever if he didn't strive to get behind those curious and compelling
                        songs that he always heard as a district doctor working in the small
                        village territory. And Longfellow was one of those that saw
                        materialism on the rise in america in the era of 1836 to 1860. The
                        Civil War between the southern and northern states would certify the
                        death of any previous subtle spiritual perception, and so Longfellow
                        wrote the american kalevala in 1855, called, "The Song of Hiawatha". A
                        comparative analysis would clearly demonstrate that Longfellow and
                        Lonnrot were psychic partners in this endeavor, wherein the Finnish and
                        American connection were simultaneously made known with the last of the
                        great national epics.

                        The difference is that Finland recognizes their's, and reveres it,
                        while america continues to ignore and degrade its own through ignorance
                        and parody from time to time.

                        > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala
                      • Stephen Hale
                        It is interesting also that Longfellow s The Song of Hiawatha concludes in the same manner as the Kalevala . Hiawatha, after meeting the white man with his
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 31 9:22 PM
                          It is interesting also that Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
                          concludes in the same manner as the "Kalevala". Hiawatha, after
                          meeting the white man with his black robe denoting the priestly garb
                          of christianity, paddles up river in the same way that Vainamoinen
                          does, never to be heard from again. Of course, Steiner would name
                          Vainamoinen as the "Sentient Soul". Sentient soul, as we know, is
                          destined to be transformed through Christianity to the "Spirit Self"
                          in about 1600 years. It makes the story of Hiawatha somehow very
                          poignant in light of this reflection. - Steve

                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                          <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Howard Berg <hberg09@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard,
                          > Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don't know.  But
                          the
                          > Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages
                          before
                          > he wrote Hiawatha, so he may have found it in one of them.
                          > >
                          > > Howard
                          >
                          > Longfellow consistently refused to acknowledge any awareness of the
                          > existence of the Kalevala, and a study of its development through
                          the
                          > efforts of Elias Lonnrot, beginning in 1827, would seem to indicate
                          > that it was not known in the English language before 1888, when it
                          was
                          > first presented several years after Longfellow's death.
                          >
                          > It is known that Longfellow's, "The Song of Hiawatha" in 1855 was
                          > panned and parodied even before its publication. Read what the
                          critic
                          > of the New York Times wrote about such an uninteresting subject in
                          the
                          > link below. Brutal stuff, but very telling about the nature of the
                          > anglo-americans who had put the remaining tribes on segregated
                          > reservations after committing their acts of genocide.
                          >
                          > I find that the work of Lonnrot in Finland in the 19th century
                          > coincides very much with the transcendentalist movement in america,
                          and
                          > these two folk epics are linked strongly with the materialism that
                          came
                          > forth in that century. Lonnrot saw that something would be lost
                          > forever if he didn't strive to get behind those curious and
                          compelling
                          > songs that he always heard as a district doctor working in the
                          small
                          > village territory. And Longfellow was one of those that saw
                          > materialism on the rise in america in the era of 1836 to 1860. The
                          > Civil War between the southern and northern states would certify
                          the
                          > death of any previous subtle spiritual perception, and so
                          Longfellow
                          > wrote the american kalevala in 1855, called, "The Song of
                          Hiawatha". A
                          > comparative analysis would clearly demonstrate that Longfellow and
                          > Lonnrot were psychic partners in this endeavor, wherein the Finnish
                          and
                          > American connection were simultaneously made known with the last of
                          the
                          > great national epics.
                          >
                          > The difference is that Finland recognizes their's, and reveres it,
                          > while america continues to ignore and degrade its own through
                          ignorance
                          > and parody from time to time.
                          >
                          > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala
                          >
                        • Mikko Nuuttila
                          Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he will return in some form . Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then. Mikko To:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 31 11:12 PM
                            Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he will return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                            Mikko


                            To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                            From: sardisian01@...
                            Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 04:22:47 +0000
                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                            It is interesting also that Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
                            concludes in the same manner as the "Kalevala". Hiawatha, after
                            meeting the white man with his black robe denoting the priestly garb
                            of christianity, paddles up river in the same way that Vainamoinen
                            does, never to be heard from again. Of course, Steiner would name
                            Vainamoinen as the "Sentient Soul". Sentient soul, as we know, is
                            destined to be transformed through Christianity to the "Spirit Self"
                            in about 1600 years. It makes the story of Hiawatha somehow very
                            poignant in light of this reflection. - Steve

                            --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen Hale"
                            <sardisian01@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Howard Berg <hberg09@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard,
                            > Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don't know.  But
                            the
                            > Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages
                            before
                            > he wrote Hiawatha, so he may have found it in one of them.
                            > >
                            > > Howard
                            >
                            > Longfellow consistently refused to acknowledge any awareness of the
                            > existence of the Kalevala, and a study of its development through
                            the
                            > efforts of Elias Lonnrot, beginning in 1827, would seem to indicate
                            > that it was not known in the English language before 1888, when it
                            was
                            > first presented several years after Longfellow's death.
                            >
                            > It is known that Longfellow's, "The Song of Hiawatha" in 1855 was
                            > panned and parodied even before its publication. Read what the
                            critic
                            > of the New York Times wrote about such an uninteresting subject in
                            the
                            > link below. Brutal stuff, but very telling about the nature of the
                            > anglo-americans who had put the remaining tribes on segregated
                            > reservations after committing their acts of genocide.
                            >
                            > I find that the work of Lonnrot in Finland in the 19th century
                            > coincides very much with the transcendentalist movement in america,
                            and
                            > these two folk epics are linked strongly with the materialism that
                            came
                            > forth in that century. Lonnrot saw that something would be lost
                            > forever if he didn't strive to get behind those curious and
                            compelling
                            > songs that he always heard as a district doctor working in the
                            small
                            > village territory. And Longfellow was one of those that saw
                            > materialism on the rise in america in the era of 1836 to 1860. The
                            > Civil War between the southern and northern states would certify
                            the
                            > death of any previous subtle spiritual perception, and so
                            Longfellow
                            > wrote the american kalevala in 1855, called, "The Song of
                            Hiawatha". A
                            > comparative analysis would clearly demonstrate that Longfellow and
                            > Lonnrot were psychic partners in this endeavor, wherein the Finnish
                            and
                            > American connection were simultaneously made known with the last of
                            the
                            > great national epics.
                            >
                            > The difference is that Finland recognizes their's, and reveres it,
                            > while america continues to ignore and degrade its own through
                            ignorance
                            > and parody from time to time.
                            >
                            > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha
                            > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Kalevala
                            >




                            Liity nyt uuteen Windows Live Messenger perheeseen Klikkaa!
                          • Stephen Hale
                            ... return in some form . Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then. ... Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend, For the lesson thou hast taught! Thus at the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 2, 2008
                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he will
                              return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                              > Mikko

                              "Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend,
                              For the lesson thou hast taught!
                              Thus at the flaming forge of life
                              Our fortunes must be wrought;
                              Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
                              Each burning deed and thought."
                              ---From "The Village Blacksmith", by H.W. Longfellow, 1841

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo
                            • carynlouise24
                              I thought this a good lecture on the Moon Adept, the Sun Adept and the Saturn Adept. Foundations of Esotericism lecture XXIII
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 3, 2008
                                I thought this a good lecture on the Moon Adept, the Sun Adept and
                                the Saturn Adept.

                                Foundations of Esotericism lecture XXIII
                                http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Dates/19051025p01.html

                                From the lecture:

                                `Thus there exists in the world a Jehovah Principle and a Lucifer
                                Principle. If the Jehovah Principle alone were to be taught, man
                                would succumb to the Earth.

                                If the teaching of reincarnation and karma were allowed to disappear
                                entirely from the Earth we should win back for Jehovah all the Monads
                                and physical man would be given over to the Earth, to a petrified
                                planet.

                                If however one teaches reincarnation and karma, man is led upwards to
                                spiritualisation. Christianity therefore made the absolutely right
                                compromise, and for a period of time did not teach reincarnation and
                                karma, but the importance of the single human existence, in order
                                that man should learn to love the Earth, waiting until he is mature
                                enough for a new Christianity, with the teaching of reincarnation and
                                karma, which is the saving of the Earth and brings the whole of what
                                has been sown into Devachan.

                                As a result, in Christianity itself there is conflict between the two
                                Principles: the one without reincarnation and karma, the other with
                                this teaching. In the former case, everything which Lucifer could
                                bring about would be taken from human beings. They would actually
                                drop out of reincarnation and turn their backs on the Earth, becoming
                                degenerate angels.

                                In that case the Earth would be going towards its downfall. Were the
                                hosts of Jehovah to be victorious on the Earth, the Earth would
                                remain behind as a kind of Moon, as a rigidified body.

                                The possibility of spiritualisation would then be a missed
                                opportunity. The battle in the Bhagavad Gita (64) describes the
                                conflict between Jehovah and Lucifer and their hosts.

                                It might still be possible today for the teaching of Christianity
                                without reincarnation and karma to prevail. Then the Earth would be
                                lost for the Principle of Lucifer. The whole earth is still a
                                battlefield of these two principles. The principle that leads the
                                earth towards spirituality is Lucifer. In order to live in accordance
                                with this Principle one must first love the Earth, one must descend
                                on to the Earth.

                                Lucifer is the Prince who reigns in the kingdom of science and art,
                                but he cannot descend altogether on to the Earth: for this, his power
                                does not suffice. Quite alone, it would be impossible for Lucifer to
                                lead upwards what is on the Earth.

                                For this, not only is the power of a Moon Adept necessary, but of a
                                Sun Adept, who embraces the universality of human life, not
                                manifesting only in science and art.

                                Lucifer is represented as the Winged Form of the Dragon; Ezekiel
                                describes him as the Winged Bull.

                                Now there came a Sun Hero, similar to those who appeared in the
                                Hyperborean Epoch, represented by Ezekiel as the Winged Lion. This
                                Hero, Who gave the second impulse, is the Christ, the Lion out of the
                                tribe of Judah. The representative of the Eagle will come only later;
                                he represents the Father Principle. Christ is a Solar Hero, a Lion-
                                Nature, a Sun Pitri.

                                The third impulse will be represented by an Adept who was already an
                                Adept on Saturn. Such a one cannot as yet incarnate on the Earth.
                                When man is not only able to develop his higher nature upwards, but
                                working creatively is able to renounce completely his lower nature,
                                then will this highest Adept, the Saturn Adept, the Father Principle,
                                the Hidden God, be able to incarnate'.


                                -We see in this lecture Jehovah does not concern himself with the
                                internal development of man, through knowledge, but only the outside
                                mineral form.

                                `Everything else (intellect) did not lie in the Jahve-Intention. If
                                Jahve's intention alone had continued to develop, the human being
                                would eventually have ceased to be able to reproduce himself, for the
                                power of reproduction would have become exhausted. He would then only
                                have been concerned with the creation of beautiful forms, for he was
                                indifferent to what is inward, intellectual. Jehovah wished to
                                produce beautifully formed human beings, like beautiful statues'.

                                Thus; we see Ahriman here.

                                Whereas – the living soul – to be healthy cannot become stagnate she
                                needs to eat from the Tree of Knowledge it is the natural fact of
                                evolution.

                                Hence; we can look at the God Mercury's mission in the evolution of
                                the earth. And we can also look at The Moon uniting with the Earth
                                enabling the Saturn Men to incarnate.



                                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he
                                will return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                                > Mikko
                                >
                                > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: sardisian01@...
                                > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 04:22:47 +0000
                                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > It is interesting also that Longfellow's "The Song of
                                Hiawatha"
                                >
                                > concludes in the same manner as the "Kalevala". Hiawatha, after
                                >
                                > meeting the white man with his black robe denoting the priestly
                                garb
                                >
                                > of christianity, paddles up river in the same way that Vainamoinen
                                >
                                > does, never to be heard from again. Of course, Steiner would name
                                >
                                > Vainamoinen as the "Sentient Soul". Sentient soul, as we know, is
                                >
                                > destined to be transformed through Christianity to the "Spirit
                                Self"
                                >
                                > in about 1600 years. It makes the story of Hiawatha somehow very
                                >
                                > poignant in light of this reflection. - Steve
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                >
                                > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Howard Berg <hberg09@>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > > > As professor of modern languages and literature at Harvard,
                                >
                                > > Longfellow could have learned Finnish himself; I don't know. But
                                >
                                > the
                                >
                                > > Kalevala had been translated into a number of european languages
                                >
                                > before
                                >
                                > > he wrote Hiawatha, so he may have found it in one of them.
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > > > Howard
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Longfellow consistently refused to acknowledge any awareness of
                                the
                                >
                                > > existence of the Kalevala, and a study of its development through
                                >
                                > the
                                >
                                > > efforts of Elias Lonnrot, beginning in 1827, would seem to
                                indicate
                                >
                                > > that it was not known in the English language before 1888, when
                                it
                                >
                                > was
                                >
                                > > first presented several years after Longfellow's death.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > It is known that Longfellow's, "The Song of Hiawatha" in 1855 was
                                >
                                > > panned and parodied even before its publication. Read what the
                                >
                                > critic
                                >
                                > > of the New York Times wrote about such an uninteresting subject
                                in
                                >
                                > the
                                >
                                > > link below. Brutal stuff, but very telling about the nature of
                                the
                                >
                                > > anglo-americans who had put the remaining tribes on segregated
                                >
                                > > reservations after committing their acts of genocide.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > I find that the work of Lonnrot in Finland in the 19th century
                                >
                                > > coincides very much with the transcendentalist movement in
                                america,
                                >
                                > and
                                >
                                > > these two folk epics are linked strongly with the materialism
                                that
                                >
                                > came
                                >
                                > > forth in that century. Lonnrot saw that something would be lost
                                >
                                > > forever if he didn't strive to get behind those curious and
                                >
                                > compelling
                                >
                                > > songs that he always heard as a district doctor working in the
                                >
                                > small
                                >
                                > > village territory. And Longfellow was one of those that saw
                                >
                                > > materialism on the rise in america in the era of 1836 to 1860.
                                The
                                >
                                > > Civil War between the southern and northern states would certify
                                >
                                > the
                                >
                                > > death of any previous subtle spiritual perception, and so
                                >
                                > Longfellow
                                >
                                > > wrote the american kalevala in 1855, called, "The Song of
                                >
                                > Hiawatha". A
                                >
                                > > comparative analysis would clearly demonstrate that Longfellow
                                and
                                >
                                > > Lonnrot were psychic partners in this endeavor, wherein the
                                Finnish
                                >
                                > and
                                >
                                > > American connection were simultaneously made known with the last
                                of
                                >
                                > the
                                >
                                > > great national epics.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > The difference is that Finland recognizes their's, and reveres
                                it,
                                >
                                > > while america continues to ignore and degrade its own through
                                >
                                > ignorance
                                >
                                > > and parody from time to time.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ The_Song_ of_Hiawatha
                                >
                                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                > Ota nyt käyttöösi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!
                                > http://get.live.com
                                >
                              • Stephen Hale
                                ... that he will ... [Image:Gallen Kallela The Forging of the Sampo.jpg]
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 4, 2008


                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila bellmeine@
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he will
                                  > return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                                  > > Mikko
                                  >
                                  > "Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend,
                                  > For the lesson thou hast taught!
                                  > Thus at the flaming forge of life
                                  > Our fortunes must be wrought;
                                  > Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
                                  > Each burning deed and thought."
                                  > ---From "The Village Blacksmith", by H.W. Longfellow, 1841
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo

                                   

                                  Image:Gallen Kallela The Forging of the Sampo.jpg

                                  From Illmarinen to Longfellow, the village "smithy" stands tall and strong in any election.

                                  Steve

                                   

                                • carynlouise24
                                  Congratulations to the new President of the United States of America. Peace and Goodwill to all mankind. ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 4, 2008
                                    Congratulations to the new President of the United States of America.
                                    Peace and Goodwill to all mankind.


                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                    <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila bellmeine@
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again,
                                    > that he will
                                    > > return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                                    > > > Mikko
                                    > >
                                    > > "Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend,
                                    > > For the lesson thou hast taught!
                                    > > Thus at the flaming forge of life
                                    > > Our fortunes must be wrought;
                                    > > Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
                                    > > Each burning deed and thought."
                                    > > ---From "The Village Blacksmith", by H.W. Longfellow, 1841
                                    > >
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo
                                    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Image:Gallen Kallela The Forging of the Sampo.jpg]
                                    >
                                    <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gallen_Kallela_The
                                    _F\
                                    > orging_of_the_Sampo.jpg>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From Illmarinen to Longfellow, the village "smithy" stands tall and
                                    > strong in any election.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                  • Mikko Nuuttila
                                    Mircea Eliade, the Romanian expert on comparitive religion, wrote the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the original alchemists. To:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 5, 2008
                                      Mircea Eliade, the Romanian expert on comparitive religion, wrote the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the original alchemists.


                                      To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: sardisian01@...
                                      Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 04:39:08 +0000
                                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga



                                      --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila bellmeine@
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Väinämöinen says he will return once he is needed again, that he will
                                      > return in "some form". Maybe that form is the Spirit Self then.
                                      > > Mikko
                                      >
                                      > "Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend,
                                      > For the lesson thou hast taught!
                                      > Thus at the flaming forge of life
                                      > Our fortunes must be wrought;
                                      > Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
                                      > Each burning deed and thought."
                                      > ---From "The Village Blacksmith", by H.W. Longfellow, 1841
                                      >
                                      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sampo

                                       
                                      Image:Gallen Kallela The Forging of the Sampo.jpg

                                      From Illmarinen to Longfellow, the village "smithy" stands tall and strong in any election.
                                      Steve
                                       



                                      Chattaa joukolla uudella Messenger betalla. Lisätietoja. Klikkaa!
                                    • Stephen Hale
                                      ... the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the original alchemists. Yes, it is all about alchemy. Spiritual Science, in fact, is all
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 5, 2008
                                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mircea Eliade, the Romanian expert on comparitive religion, wrote
                                        the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the
                                        original alchemists.

                                        Yes, it is all about alchemy. Spiritual Science, in fact, is all
                                        about alchemy; the alchemy that leads to transmutation. I don't know
                                        if Mircea Eliade wrote about transmutation at all, but Rudolf Steiner
                                        wrote and spoke continuously about transmutation.

                                        Alchemy becomes the endeavor of the student of spiritual science who
                                        has the sense to see that higher organs of perception have to have a
                                        seating for their true experience. Thus, the example of the forge
                                        gives indication of this great work of human sweat.

                                        It is not without significance that the concept of the "sampo", seen
                                        as the world pillar or world tree, often called the tree of the
                                        Sephirot or tree of yggdrasill, is simply called "the spreading
                                        chestnut tree" according to Longfellow. He was a transcendentalist
                                        of that era that saw what Elias Lonnrot saw coming on. Materialism.

                                        Lonnrot was influenced by the Decembrist uprising in Russia in 1825,
                                        which saw dashed hopes for a needed liberal revolution in Russia.
                                        Longfellow saw abolition as the bargaining chip. Thus, the folk
                                        epics have to appear or be lost in the swamp of materialism.

                                        So, we have them to our greater good.

                                        Steve
                                      • Mikko Nuuttila
                                        The comparative religion guy Uno Harva sees Sampo also as the Tibetan word Sambha, pillar . It resembles the word Sambhallah, the Tibetan mythical realm, I
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 5, 2008
                                          The comparative religion guy Uno Harva sees Sampo also as the Tibetan word Sambha, 'pillar'. It resembles the word Sambhallah, the Tibetan mythical realm, I think. In Hamlet's Mill, Sampo is seen as the planet earth, the pillar being the world axis. Sampo occurs in the context of the term kirjokansi, the lid of many colours, which is thought to represent the starry sky. In the Bible, they talk about the coat of many colours, which by some experts is thought to be the starry sky as well. The word Sampi is seen by Harva as the crank of a mill, and the word sammakko, frog, connects to sampo perhaps as well, he muses. (How about samba music, but that's humour, I'm afraid : ).)

                                          Mikko


                                          To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: sardisian01@...
                                          Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:59:36 +0000
                                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                                          --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@. ..>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Mircea Eliade, the Romanian expert on comparitive religion, wrote
                                          the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the
                                          original alchemists.

                                          Yes, it is all about alchemy. Spiritual Science, in fact, is all
                                          about alchemy; the alchemy that leads to transmutation. I don't know
                                          if Mircea Eliade wrote about transmutation at all, but Rudolf Steiner
                                          wrote and spoke continuously about transmutation.

                                          Alchemy becomes the endeavor of the student of spiritual science who
                                          has the sense to see that higher organs of perception have to have a
                                          seating for their true experience. Thus, the example of the forge
                                          gives indication of this great work of human sweat.

                                          It is not without significance that the concept of the "sampo", seen
                                          as the world pillar or world tree, often called the tree of the
                                          Sephirot or tree of yggdrasill, is simply called "the spreading
                                          chestnut tree" according to Longfellow. He was a transcendentalist
                                          of that era that saw what Elias Lonnrot saw coming on. Materialism.

                                          Lonnrot was influenced by the Decembrist uprising in Russia in 1825,
                                          which saw dashed hopes for a needed liberal revolution in Russia.
                                          Longfellow saw abolition as the bargaining chip. Thus, the folk
                                          epics have to appear or be lost in the swamp of materialism.

                                          So, we have them to our greater good.

                                          Steve




                                          Chattaa joukolla uudella Messenger betalla. Lisätietoja. Klikkaa!
                                        • Mikko Nuuttila
                                          I think it is Mircea Eliade who on his book on Yoga exposes that the Indian smiths forged Sampos as well, I think they were called sambhas. But they had
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
                                            I think it is Mircea Eliade who on his book on Yoga exposes that the Indian smiths forged Sampos as well, I think they were called sambhas. But they had problems as to its operation, namely pieces of metal started flying towards them from the horizon when the machines were in use. But it is interesting to know that the tradition was once more global than just being restricted to Finland.

                                            Mikko


                                            To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: bellmeine@...
                                            Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:13:26 +0200
                                            Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                                            The comparative religion guy Uno Harva sees Sampo also as the Tibetan word Sambha, 'pillar'. It resembles the word Sambhallah, the Tibetan mythical realm, I think. In Hamlet's Mill, Sampo is seen as the planet earth, the pillar being the world axis. Sampo occurs in the context of the term kirjokansi, the lid of many colours, which is thought to represent the starry sky. In the Bible, they talk about the coat of many colours, which by some experts is thought to be the starry sky as well. The word Sampi is seen by Harva as the crank of a mill, and the word sammakko, frog, connects to sampo perhaps as well, he muses. (How about samba music, but that's humour, I'm afraid : ).)

                                            Mikko



                                            To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                                            From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                                            Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:59:36 +0000
                                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: On Joukahainen and Yoga

                                            --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@. ..>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Mircea Eliade, the Romanian expert on comparitive religion, wrote
                                            the book called Forge and the Crucible where he sees smiths as the
                                            original alchemists.

                                            Yes, it is all about alchemy. Spiritual Science, in fact, is all
                                            about alchemy; the alchemy that leads to transmutation. I don't know
                                            if Mircea Eliade wrote about transmutation at all, but Rudolf Steiner
                                            wrote and spoke continuously about transmutation.

                                            Alchemy becomes the endeavor of the student of spiritual science who
                                            has the sense to see that higher organs of perception have to have a
                                            seating for their true experience. Thus, the example of the forge
                                            gives indication of this great work of human sweat.

                                            It is not without significance that the concept of the "sampo", seen
                                            as the world pillar or world tree, often called the tree of the
                                            Sephirot or tree of yggdrasill, is simply called "the spreading
                                            chestnut tree" according to Longfellow. He was a transcendentalist
                                            of that era that saw what Elias Lonnrot saw coming on. Materialism.

                                            Lonnrot was influenced by the Decembrist uprising in Russia in 1825,
                                            which saw dashed hopes for a needed liberal revolution in Russia.
                                            Longfellow saw abolition as the bargaining chip. Thus, the folk
                                            epics have to appear or be lost in the swamp of materialism.

                                            So, we have them to our greater good.

                                            Steve




                                            Chattaa joukolla uudella Messenger betalla. Lisätietoja. Klikkaa!



                                            Chattaa joukolla uudella Messenger betalla. Lisätietoja. Klikkaa!
                                          • Stephen Hale
                                            ... Tibetan word Sambha, pillar . It resembles the word Sambhallah, the Tibetan mythical realm, I think. In Hamlet s Mill, Sampo is seen as the planet earth,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
                                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The comparative religion guy Uno Harva sees Sampo also as the
                                              Tibetan word Sambha, 'pillar'. It resembles the word Sambhallah, the
                                              Tibetan mythical realm, I think. In Hamlet's Mill, Sampo is seen as
                                              the planet earth, the pillar being the world axis. Sampo occurs in
                                              the context of the term kirjokansi, the lid of many colours, which is
                                              thought to represent the starry sky. In the Bible, they talk about
                                              the coat of many colours, which by some experts is thought to be the
                                              starry sky as well. The word Sampi is seen by Harva as the crank of a
                                              mill, and the word sammakko, frog, connects to sampo perhaps as well,
                                              he muses. (How about samba music, but that's humour, I'm afraid : ).)
                                              >
                                              > Mikko

                                              No, samba music would express the etheric body very well. For the
                                              Sampo is the etheric body forged by Ilmarinen. I remember the beat
                                              of samba and its rhythm when I was a little boy with very eclectic
                                              tastes in music. Samba, yes!

                                              So, let us try to contrast the forging of Sampo by Ilmarinen, and why
                                              it has a certain offering by Louhi that Ilmarinen cannot resist.
                                              Doesn't this offering seem quite close to the one offered by Laban to
                                              Jacob, son of Issac and Rebekah?

                                              And Longfellow's blacksmith is a widower already, still firing up the
                                              forge for the sake of the children, the congregation, and the
                                              memories under the spreading chestnut tree. Pertintent stuff in the
                                              evolutionary sense, it seems. We have all gained a kind of
                                              recognition of what this means when it was first forged out of a
                                              primal necessity. Ilmarinen is given the offering of the beautiful
                                              and virgin daughter of the goddess Louhi if he will forge the Sampo,
                                              which is nothing he would have originally wanted to do. The same
                                              goes for Jacob, who simply comes to his mother's brother for
                                              support. Yet, Jacob has also proven to be a serious follower of the
                                              Law, like Ilmarinen, and seeks to continue the generations wherein
                                              reverence and love and faith hold true. Yet, Jacob has a brother who
                                              does not hold true to the Law. Esau, Jacob's brother, holds to the
                                              idea of might and right.

                                              Ilmarinen, on the other hand, is outright fooled by Louhi, and loses
                                              all. The Sampo is forged and then lost, and Ilmarinen is left bereft
                                              of all the sweat and pain. This is the stuff of primal epics, such
                                              as Kalevala. It doesn't get any closer to the bone unless we are
                                              talking about Homer's epic, which also gets pretty close to the bone.

                                              Then we come to salvation, which makes these epics more easy to take
                                              in there present incarnation. Homer's epic led to the Christ Event
                                              itself. And Longfellow's allusion to the spreading chestnut tree is
                                              a sublime meditation in itself. It shows strength and courage, and
                                              the common right of mankind. A global feeling.

                                              Steve
                                            • Stephen Hale
                                              ... the Indian smiths forged Sampos as well, I think they were called sambhas. But they had problems as to its operation, namely pieces of metal started flying
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Nov 6, 2008
                                                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I think it is Mircea Eliade who on his book on Yoga exposes that
                                                the Indian smiths forged Sampos as well, I think they were called
                                                sambhas. But they had problems as to its operation, namely pieces of
                                                metal started flying towards them from the horizon when the machines
                                                were in use. But it is interesting to know that the tradition was
                                                once more global than just being restricted to Finland.
                                                >
                                                > Mikko

                                                Yes, all the national epics are rather global for the simple reason
                                                that they come into being when evolutionary change dictates them
                                                coming into being. Evolutionary change means that a more outer,
                                                external world view is our challenge for the future. Thus, the epics
                                                are brought forth as a necessary remembrance of former times.
                                                Spiritual science attmepts to explain them in rational-logical terms,
                                                which is very good for the consciousness soul.

                                                Take, for example, pseudo-dionysius; if he hadn't written down what
                                                had passed down as an oral teaching for five hundred years from the
                                                time when Paul initiated Dionysius the Areopagite at Athens in 44, we
                                                would have nothing of the former knowledge wherein the planets
                                                expressed spiritual beings until Steiner renewed this knowledge
                                                himself. It was the byzantine emperor Justinian who forbade these
                                                things. Plato's academy went east, and pseudo-dionysius went north.
                                                They both came into fruition.

                                                Plato's academy gave rise to 666, and pseudo-dionysius went northward
                                                to a place in France in the era of Raphael.

                                                Steve
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