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RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

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  • Mikko Nuuttila
    Nina, Thanks for the link. I m in Kangasala, Finland. I ve read Maurice Cotterell s work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Nina,
      Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.

      Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.

      Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.

      Mikko


      To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
      From: emeraldnina@...
      Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ


      Dear Mikko,
      Am glad  you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms. org 
      you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc
      re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years. All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. " Your observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
       
      Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more details.
      Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal Pattern of Consciousness: A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
       
      I mention Islam because am concerned about the militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement", based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of their sergents for firing on  supposedly unarmed Muslim women and children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination, etc. .(video of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an educational movie.)
      Two of my  close friends - Muslim married to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one day!
       
      Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an opinion.
      I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care - Nina
       
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47 AM
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

      The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
      http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html



      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
      From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
      Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

      Hi,
      this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

      Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

      Mikko



      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
      From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
      Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

      --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
      > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
      at
      > whatever cost it involves.
      >
      > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
      > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
      sanctity of
      > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
      > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
      > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
      Gurdjeiff's
      > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
      These may
      > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
      political
      > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
      have
      > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
      soul 'situation',
      > and/or personal biographic issues.
      >
      > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
      body 'types'-
      > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
      > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
      Ouspenski.
      > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
      > 'etheric body' scenario?
      >
      > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
      >
      > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
      Marc,
      > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
      a
      > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
      area
      > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
      > formative forces inherent in the French language.
      >
      > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
      it
      > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
      influence'
      > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
      > which you live?
      >
      > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
      Ukraine and
      > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
      between
      > east and west.
      >
      > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
      Micheal's
      > court, no ?

      Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
      poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
      might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
      what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
      characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
      Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
      presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
      dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

      "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
      work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
      incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
      this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
      on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
      body, `conscience' arises.

      Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
      something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
      entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
      itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
      as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
      kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
      alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
      by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
      then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
      (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
      wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
      of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

      Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
      belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
      is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
      transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
      if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
      himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
      able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
      during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
      Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
      transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
      means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
      during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
      transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

      When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
      training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
      the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
      Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
      transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
      memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
      transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
      terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
      it, `Budhi')."

      http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
      24,29#WN_mark




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    • Stephen Hale
      ... hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words, Christ became just a
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
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        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why
        hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
        been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
        Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
        Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
        heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later left
        the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations between
        Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
        records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
        he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about the
        last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for instance
        that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
        was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
        spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic stream,
        it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
        anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
        that.
        > Mikko


        Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams up
        to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
        physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.

        We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself. The
        message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
        mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.

        Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the ancient
        mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this himself
        as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?

        According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to the
        ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
        German.

        Steve
      • carol
        Hi Mikko, Of course, all was not all bad on the American continents. Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls- and- there were likely
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
        • 0 Attachment

          Hi Mikko,  Of course, all was not 'all bad' on the American continents.  Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls-  and-  there were likely supersensible 'checks' in place to obstruct the forms of 'evil' which were being cultivated in those geographic and those other time settings-  so that they did not achieve their ultimate purpose.

          ...One must not create illusions on this front-  the Heavens do work their forces into all matters of the world.   Very likely,  some central and south American incarnate souls would have represented the interests of the Higher Realms,  while a larger number would have allowed their soul forces to conform to the decadent trend of other spirit forms, by this time,  acting as empowerment for the lower realms.

          One must avoid adhering to thinking which views life in 'absolute' terms.  In this,  there are dangers. FREEDOM comes more from within  the conscious, personal `soìl` which  the soul discreetly cultivates for itself over what 'sense' it can abstractly attach to a given significant situation.  In my view,  flexibility and mobility of soul is of outmost importance, in the first instance,  verbalizing it so that it be understood by the  'modern ear' comes second.  As well, ' best of luck' in verbalizing all aspects of a given situation...

          Having stated the points above,  one must understand that flexibility and mobility of soul can be interpreted in differing ways,  depending on the individual's  soul`s level of TRUE spiritual development.

           carol.

           


          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Nina,
          > Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.
          >
          > Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.
          >
          > Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.
          >
          > Mikko
          >
          > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          > From: emeraldnina@...
          > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
          > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Mikko,
          > Am glad you wrote me. Thought of letting you
          > know that on www.noblerealms.org
          > you can search for info about the assemblage
          > point,etc
          > re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years.
          > All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote
          > "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies." Your
          > observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
          >
          > Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more
          > details.
          > Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal
          > Pattern of Consciousness:A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce
          > psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical
          > knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the
          > Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
          >
          > I mention Islam because am concerned about the
          > militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement",
          > based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of
          > their sergents for firing on supposedly unarmed Muslim women and
          > children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get
          > at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination,etc. .(video
          > of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an
          > educational movie.)
          > Two of my close friends - Muslim married
          > to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much
          > Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one
          > day!
          >
          > Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think
          > South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of
          > Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an
          > opinion.
          > I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care -
          > Nina
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From:
          > Mikko
          > Nuuttila
          > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47
          > AM
          > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
          > Physical Christ
          >
          >
          >
          > The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
          > http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html
          >
          >
          >
          > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          > From:
          > bellmeine@...
          > Date:
          > Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
          > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
          > Physical Christ
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          > this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting
          > discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the
          > following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when
          > people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the
          > ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing
          > night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the
          > image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the
          > second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they
          > can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven
          > (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes
          > relevant.
          >
          > Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman
          > in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity.
          > According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms
          > in dreams instead.
          >
          > Mikko
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          > From:
          > sardisian01@...
          > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24
          > +0000
          > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
          > "carol" organicethics@
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
          > >
          > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
          >
          > at
          > > whatever cost it involves.
          > >
          > > First of all,
          > Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
          > > years. Ouspenski
          > was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
          > sanctity of
          > > his world
          > view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
          > > childhood, aside
          > that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
          > > influences may have
          > played into his adult choice to follow
          > Gurdjeiff's
          > > path as opposed
          > to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
          > These may
          > > have had
          > something to do with the physical, social, religious,
          > political
          > >
          > environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may
          >
          > have
          > > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
          >
          > soul 'situation',
          > > and/or personal biographic issues.
          > >
          >
          > > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
          > body
          > 'types'-
          > > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please,
          > don't
          > > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
          >
          > Ouspenski.
          > > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to
          > study this
          > > 'etheric body' scenario?
          > >
          > > How about
          > Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
          > >
          > > Just thought I'd
          > let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
          > Marc,
          > > is both
          > Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
          > a
          > >
          > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
          >
          > area
          > > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good
          > extent, the
          > > formative forces inherent in the French language.
          > >
          >
          > > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
          >
          > it
          > > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
          >
          > influence'
          > > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social
          > environment in
          > > which you live?
          > >
          > > I imagine that you
          > know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
          > Ukraine and
          > > Poland with
          > an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
          > between
          > > east and
          > west.
          > >
          > > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some
          > measure, in
          > Micheal's
          > > court, no ?
          >
          > Well, let us try another
          > example. The intellectual soul is a very
          > poor comprehender of deeper
          > concepts, but the analogy of the clock
          > might help in understanding what is
          > easy, in terms of learning, and
          > what is difficult in the unlearning of bad
          > habits and rigid
          > characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The
          > Fourth
          > Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
          >
          > presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
          > dragon
          > is waged in conscience with Michael.
          >
          > "What we call `conscience' is
          > nothing else than the outcome of the
          > work of the Ego on the life-body
          > through incarnation after
          > incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he
          > ought not to do
          > this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an
          > impression
          > on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
          > body,
          > `conscience' arises.
          >
          > Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members
          > may either be
          > something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it
          > may be
          > entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working
          > on
          > itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
          >
          > as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
          > kind
          > of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
          > alone and
          > of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
          > by its very own
          > power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
          > then makes of the
          > Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
          > (or by an Eastern
          > expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
          > wrought mainly through a
          > process of learning, through an enriching
          > of one's inner life with higher
          > ideas and perceptions.
          >
          > Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task,
          > and it is one that
          > belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens
          > when not only
          > is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
          >
          > transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
          >
          > if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
          >
          > himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
          >
          > able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
          >
          > during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
          >
          > Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
          >
          > transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
          >
          > means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
          >
          > during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
          >
          > transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.
          >
          >
          > When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
          >
          > training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
          > the
          > very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
          > Individually and
          > with full consciousness, he has to work out the
          > transformation of his
          > habits and his temperament, his character, his
          > memory ... In so far as he
          > thus works into his life-body, he
          > transforms it into what is called in
          > anthroposophical
          > terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression
          > has
          > it, `Budhi')."
          >
          > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/EduChild/EduChi_essay.html;mark=543,
          > 24,29#WN_mark
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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        • Robert Mason
          ... for instance that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus was crucified on Golgotha.
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            To Mikko, who wrote:

            >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
            for instance that they crucified a person
            upside down at the same time as Jesus was
            crucified on Golgotha.<<

            Robert writes:

            That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
            as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
            thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
            story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
            black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
            of Evolution*:
            <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>

            Mikko wrote:

            >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
            about South America, I've never seen any text
            like that.<<

            Robert writes:

            He did indeed say something about South
            America, but I don't have the citation. I
            vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
            something to the effect that the religious
            soul-configuration of the people in South
            America is similar to that of the people in
            Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
            why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
            into these facts and the possible course of
            future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
            establish themselves in a strong position in
            South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
            polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
            Steiner's exact words or the reference.

            In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
            excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
            Bondarev says:

            ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
            black magic practised on the scale of an entire
            state, putting man into the condition of
            group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
            he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
            experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
            [p. 45]

            Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
            "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
            rightful social evolution can happen only if
            the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
            development come to fruition and are passed on
            to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
            the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
            The true German culture comes to expression in
            Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
            Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
            too successful, of evil occult-political forces
            in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
            the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
            toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
            way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
            succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
            in South America, but would be maimed and
            distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
            in the way intended for progressive evolution.
            -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
            for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
            might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
            Europe...*

            From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
            i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
            <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>

            "These are in a very condensed form some of the
            essential elements of the methodology of modern
            politology. Anyone who does not master them is
            given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
            those whose sense of national self-worth is
            undermined by the development of the actual
            state of affairs can merely be told: Have
            patience, the time will come when Germany will
            fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
            retire into the background and make way for
            others. But God grant that the latter does not
            happen today. For this would mean that the
            secret societies of the West would have
            succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
            before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
            forcing it further westwards. In this case one
            would have succeeded in making the fifth
            cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
            with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
            eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
            a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
            to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
            cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
            be transposed to South America and take effect
            only in a modified form. It would then come
            into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
            earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
            the greatest strength of spirit would be able
            to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
            efforts having the character of an initiation.
            As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
            their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
            teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
            prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
            forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
            magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
            with renewed force."

            Hope this helps,

            Robert M
          • Stephen Hale
            ... Robert, Don t know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did. 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the german aryans
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
              <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
              >
              > To Mikko, who wrote:
              >
              > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
              > for instance that they crucified a person
              > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
              > crucified on Golgotha.<<
              >
              > Robert writes:
              >
              > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
              > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
              > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
              > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
              > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
              > of Evolution*:
              > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
              >
              > Mikko wrote:
              >
              > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
              > about South America, I've never seen any text
              > like that.<<
              >
              > Robert writes:
              >
              > He did indeed say something about South
              > America, but I don't have the citation. I
              > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
              > something to the effect that the religious
              > soul-configuration of the people in South
              > America is similar to that of the people in
              > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
              > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
              > into these facts and the possible course of
              > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
              > establish themselves in a strong position in
              > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
              > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
              > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
              >
              > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
              > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
              > Bondarev says:
              >
              > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
              > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
              > state, putting man into the condition of
              > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
              > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
              > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
              > [p. 45]
              >
              > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
              > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
              > rightful social evolution can happen only if
              > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
              > development come to fruition and are passed on
              > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
              > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
              > The true German culture comes to expression in
              > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
              > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
              > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
              > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
              > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
              > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
              > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
              > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
              > in South America, but would be maimed and
              > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
              > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
              > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
              > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
              > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
              > Europe...*
              >
              > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
              > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
              > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
              >
              > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
              > essential elements of the methodology of modern
              > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
              > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
              > those whose sense of national self-worth is
              > undermined by the development of the actual
              > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
              > patience, the time will come when Germany will
              > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
              > retire into the background and make way for
              > others. But God grant that the latter does not
              > happen today. For this would mean that the
              > secret societies of the West would have
              > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
              > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
              > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
              > would have succeeded in making the fifth
              > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
              > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
              > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
              > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
              > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
              > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
              > be transposed to South America and take effect
              > only in a modified form. It would then come
              > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
              > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
              > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
              > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
              > efforts having the character of an initiation.
              > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
              > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
              > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
              > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
              > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
              > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
              > with renewed force."
              >
              > Hope this helps,
              >
              > Robert M

              Robert,

              Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
              1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
              german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
              Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for this
              settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
              failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
              committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
              the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.

              And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
              again if anybody is interested.

              Steve
            • Stephen Hale
              Also, isn t it interesting that the author s foreward to the book allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very early in this treatise
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
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                Also, isn't it interesting that the author's foreward to the book
                allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very
                early in this treatise that Prokofieff was a complete product of the
                west? This assertion apparently comes from the Wimbauer book of
                1995, but it, in fact, forms the entire formative structure of the
                book.

                Thus, Prokofieff, and the entire GAS which supposedly supports the
                anthroposophical movement today, is a product of western formulation,
                regardless of the spiritual configuration of eastern europe.

                I believe that *that* is the most important point. Selling out
                anthroposophy to South America in a premature effort to instream the
                sixth cultural epoch into the fifth. And, of course, Amnerica is
                behind it with its greedy plan of democratic territorial expansion
                under the auspices of the Monroe Doctrine.

                Also, a very unhealthy dose of extreme magnetism doesn't help the
                cause. We all have *that* fact to fight as the ahrimanic influence
                centered in the west that some want to extend throughout the entire
                world. No wonder Europe is pissed. It comes from the divisive
                layer, or eighth subearthly level where the asuras hold sway, and the
                occultists succeed in bringing to the surface. And these occultists
                represent the western brotherhood, which gets to be our destiny to
                explain and fight.

                Steve



                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
                > >
                > > To Mikko, who wrote:
                > >
                > > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                > > for instance that they crucified a person
                > > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                > > crucified on Golgotha.<<
                > >
                > > Robert writes:
                > >
                > > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                > > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                > > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                > > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                > > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                > > of Evolution*:
                > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
                > >
                > > Mikko wrote:
                > >
                > > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                > > about South America, I've never seen any text
                > > like that.<<
                > >
                > > Robert writes:
                > >
                > > He did indeed say something about South
                > > America, but I don't have the citation. I
                > > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                > > something to the effect that the religious
                > > soul-configuration of the people in South
                > > America is similar to that of the people in
                > > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                > > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                > > into these facts and the possible course of
                > > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                > > establish themselves in a strong position in
                > > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                > > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                > > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
                > >
                > > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                > > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                > > Bondarev says:
                > >
                > > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                > > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                > > state, putting man into the condition of
                > > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                > > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                > > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                > > [p. 45]
                > >
                > > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                > > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                > > rightful social evolution can happen only if
                > > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                > > development come to fruition and are passed on
                > > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                > > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                > > The true German culture comes to expression in
                > > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                > > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                > > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                > > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                > > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                > > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                > > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                > > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                > > in South America, but would be maimed and
                > > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                > > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                > > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                > > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                > > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                > > Europe...*
                > >
                > > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                > > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                > > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
                > >
                > > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                > > essential elements of the methodology of modern
                > > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                > > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                > > those whose sense of national self-worth is
                > > undermined by the development of the actual
                > > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                > > patience, the time will come when Germany will
                > > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                > > retire into the background and make way for
                > > others. But God grant that the latter does not
                > > happen today. For this would mean that the
                > > secret societies of the West would have
                > > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                > > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                > > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                > > would have succeeded in making the fifth
                > > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                > > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                > > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                > > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                > > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                > > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                > > be transposed to South America and take effect
                > > only in a modified form. It would then come
                > > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                > > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                > > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                > > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                > > efforts having the character of an initiation.
                > > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                > > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                > > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                > > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                > > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                > > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                > > with renewed force."
                > >
                > > Hope this helps,
                > >
                > > Robert M
                >
                > Robert,
                >
                > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                this
                > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                >
                > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                > again if anybody is interested.
                >
                > Steve
                >
              • Robert Mason
                ... this ... Sorry, Steve, but I don t understand much of this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
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                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                  <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                  > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                  > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                  > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                  > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                  this
                  > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                  > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                  > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                  > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                  >
                  > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                  > again if anybody is interested.

                  Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                  this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                  <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                  <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                  -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                  nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                  or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                  connection between Proky and the premature
                  6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                  the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                  Russia to South America. But I don't have
                  the book and so don't have his exact words.

                  Robert M
                • Stephen Hale
                  ... a ... through ... say ... I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason"
                    <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                    > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                    > > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                    > > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                    > > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                    > > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                    > this
                    > > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of
                    a
                    > > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                    > > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived
                    through
                    > > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                    > >
                    > > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will
                    say
                    > > again if anybody is interested.
                    >
                    > Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                    > this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                    > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                    > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                    > -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                    > nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                    > or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                    > connection between Proky and the premature
                    > 6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                    > the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                    > Russia to South America. But I don't have
                    > the book and so don't have his exact words.
                    >
                    > Robert M

                    I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry
                    of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South America, and
                    this is quite evident with the aims of the National Socialists of
                    Germany. By referring to Nietzsche's sister and her very chauvinist
                    husband, we can get a very early grasp of a failed plan as far back
                    as 1889.

                    Prokofieff is the advocate of a premature instreaming of the sixth
                    cultural epoch into the fifth through the 'idea' of the Being
                    Anthroposophia. We have both engaged in heavy battle concerning the
                    advocacy of this, coming from a certain quarter of the
                    anthroposophical movement which seems to be centered here in America.

                    My research indicates that Prokofieff was, indeed, a product of the
                    western formulation of anthroposophy, and that he and Irina Gordienko
                    actually had an intimate relationship prior to the writing of her
                    book.

                    As for G & O, that is the *real* Russian response to Michael's call
                    to the Russian Folk Soul back in 1915, when the young etheric bodies
                    stood before the vault.

                    Steve
                  • Stephen Hale
                    ... why ... left ... between ... the ... instance ... stream, ... up ... The ... ancient ... himself ... the ... It is the body going into the ground that
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                      <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God,
                      why
                      > hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
                      > been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
                      > Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
                      > Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
                      > heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later
                      left
                      > the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations
                      between
                      > Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
                      > records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
                      > he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about
                      the
                      > last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for
                      instance
                      > that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
                      > was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
                      > spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic
                      stream,
                      > it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
                      > anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
                      > that.
                      > > Mikko
                      >
                      >
                      > Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams
                      up
                      > to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
                      > physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.
                      >
                      > We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself.
                      The
                      > message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
                      > mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.
                      >
                      > Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the
                      ancient
                      > mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this
                      himself
                      > as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?
                      >
                      > According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to
                      the
                      > ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
                      > German.


                      It is the body going into the ground that makes for *Us* being the
                      source of light that streams up to the Sun Logos. Jesus never gets
                      credit for that. It's all about Christ ascending into the sky and
                      disappearing into the clouds.

                      I once talked to some friends about the historical resurrection of
                      Jesus, and how the body had gone into the ground after an eclipse and
                      an earthquake, and they branded me a heretic. I thought that *that*
                      was common knowledge. Nope.

                      Apparently, fundamentalists truly believe that when Thomas had to
                      have proof that Jesus had resurrected that He said: "Place your
                      fingers in these wounds and see". And Thomas exclaimed: "My Lord, My
                      God!"

                      And this meant a physical resurrection. This is what the
                      fundamentalists of all the denominations believe, to this day.

                      Steve
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