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Re: The Physical Christ

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  • Stephen Hale
    ... From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He gives humanity
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
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      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:

      "From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He gives humanity impulses which retain the previous relation to the divine-spiritual world, without this retention taking on a luciferic character.
       
      For in the last third of the nineteenth century Michael pressed forward in the physical world itself with the activity that he had prepared in supersensible regions from the fifteenth up until the nineteenth centuries.

      Humanity had to undergo for a while a spiritual development freeing it from that relationship with the spiritual world which threatened to become an impossible one. Thereupon this development was guided, through the Michael mission, along paths which brought the progress of earthly humanity back to a relationship with the spiritual world which is beneficial to it.
       
      Thus in his activity Michael stands between the luciferic world-view and the Ahrimanic world-intelligence. With Michael this world-view becomes a wisdom filled world-revelation which reveals world-intelligence as divine world-action. In this world-action lives Christ's wish for humanity that thus Michael's world-revelation may be unveiled to the human heart."

       

      "If we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize his peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death, carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of time. That is the difference between the West and the East. When the ether bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend to maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls "Gloire" is impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for a long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been infected by materialistic thinking.

      The speedy separation and the diffusion of the ether body is accompanied by a feeling of sensual pleasure, which is also present as a most peculiar ingredient of national sentiment. How is this expressed in the East (Central Europeans do not understand this just as they do not empathize with the East.) Consider Dostoevsky and even Tolstoy or those leading writers who are constantly speaking of "Russian man"; their jargon is an expression of an undefined sensual pleasure surging from their national sentiment. Even in Solowjow's philosophy, we find a vague and stifling quality that the Central European man cannot reconcile with the clarity and purity he seeks. This search for clarity and purity is related to what is active in Europe as spiritual power.

      Certain preparations are necessary. When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen — they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual from Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to contribute something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from Western Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies from the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world. This furious battle between Russia and France is indeed going on in the astral world and is led by Michael; it corresponds to the war that is now being waged in Europe. We are often shaken by the knowledge that the events in the physical world take place as exact opposites to those occurring in the spiritual world, and that is precisely what is happening in this case. The alliance between France and Russia can be blamed on the seductive powers of Ahriman or, if you will, on the ahrimanic element, the twenty billion francs that France gave to Russia. This alliance is the physical expression of a struggle raging between French and Russian souls, a struggle that has an impact on Central Europe as it strives in its innermost soul for an encounter with the Christ. It is the karma of Europe that we in Central Europe must experience in an especially tragic way what the West and East must settle between themselves. The only possible interpretation of the external struggle between German and French elements is that the German element lies in the middle and serves as an anvil for both East and West. Germany, which is hammered by both sides in the conflict, is in reality the subject of their own controversy. That is the spiritual truth and quite different from what is happening in the physical world. Consider how different the spiritual truth is from what is happening in the physical world! This must strike contemporary man as grotesque, but it nevertheless is the truth, which must have a shocking effect on us.

      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html

    • Stephen Hale
      ... wrote: When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
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        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
        <sardisian01@...> wrote:
        "When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become
        clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen —
        they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual from
        Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all
        and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this
        reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to contribute
        something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from Western
        Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies from
        the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a
        struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
        violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western
        European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world."


        "Conceptual life in the west, astral development in the east. It
        should be of no surprise to anyone that the further development of
        the conscious soul is set to take place in and around Russian. The
        beautiful depictions conveyed through ancient Greek literature,
        rising up to the surface once again, in a generalized conscious
        soul's experience of the I." [Msg. 12636]

        Petr Demianovich Uspenskii was relatively self-taught, according to
        J. H. Reyner's depiction of his early life in "The Unsung Genius".
        At the age of three he was self conscious, and by age eight he was
        reading Tolstoi and Dostoevski. He never went to a university and
        received a degree. Instead, he was left alone to study whatever he
        wanted. What a remarkable opportunity. And largely the reason we
        have so much from one who truly sought the esoteric in terms of
        knowledge and being. His was a life of 'thinking allowed' without
        restraint. Yet, by age 37 he was tapped out in terms of what he
        thought he could achieve on his own. The year was 1915. He gives
        clear indication of being forlorn upon returning to Russia in
        November of 1914. All was lost because he failed to find an
        esoteric school in the east, and the World War had begun. And he
        knew that a revolution in his own country was on the verge. He had
        become a desperate man. G. I. Gurdjieff would enter into the
        affairs of this man's life at the appropriate point, as a
        salvation. He needed an intellectual receptacle, and Ouspensky had
        it in spades.

        The secret to the fourth way concerns the meeting ground of these
        two in Moscow, at a cafe in 1915, and the collaboration that formed
        out of it. A key to understanding it, and the overall goal of the
        mystical system that they forged together, can be found in the
        chapter entitled, "Esotericism and Modern Thought", from Ouspensky's
        book, A New Model of the Universe. This chapter expresses
        Ouspensky's whole aim and emphasis, which culminated in his
        association with Gurdjieff. As such, he potentially sacrificed his
        own self-culmination in order to serve another master. But this was
        a worthy endeavor, nonetheless. In fact, Ouspensky's whole legacy
        is based on this signifcant relationship. But in his own right,
        Ouspensky is the relatively unrecognized developer of reductive
        (third force) reasoning, which gave way in favor of his
        collaboration with Gurdjieff from 1915 to 1921. Interestingly, he
        wrote the major content of A New Model of the Universe from 1907 to
        1911, with Tertium Organum coming in 1912. Therefore, A New Model
        of the Universe forms the basis for Tertium Organum and its
        emphasis.

        At the age of 29 he was working for the newspapers, with a desk full
        of esoteric readings, e.g., "Atlantis and Lemuria" and desperately
        wanting to realize higher knowledge. In Tertium Organum he deals
        with all the really salient points for approaching higher
        consciousness by way of the faculty of thinking. But he wanted
        theory to graduate into practical application and true experience,
        and this had escaped him. Thus, he was ripe for Gurdjieff's
        influence at that time. Considering the first chapter of his book,
        In Search Of the Miraculous, it seems clear that he was desperate
        for some new direction, and looking for a guru. Thus, Gurdjieff
        shows up, almost right on cue. Ouspensky needed an inspirational
        spur that would have allowed his own full excellence to blossom. He
        was right at the point of breakthrough; at least, he had certainly
        earned it by 1915. It would appear that his meeting with Gurdjieff
        was already planned, and his active participation in the
        intellectual advancement of Gurdjieff's ideas assured. Consequently,
        he devoted the rest of his life (1915-1947) to the clarification of
        the ideas that belonged to someone else.

        It would seem reasonable, at the close of his life efforts, to
        contemplate this sacrifice in favor of his own. It is said,
        ref. "The Harmonious Circle", that he sought to make his own efforts
        late in life; he wanted to achieve results for himself. And this has
        demonstrated so much of the great nature of this man; that for 25
        years he sacrificed his own development in favor of teaching others
        the principles of this system. He gave his all in faithful service
        to someone he felt was his superior, G. I. Gurdjieff. And even when
        they parted ways, he was dedicated to him. So, in the end he
        realized that his destiny had been fulfilled. That eternal
        recurrence is nothing other than the destiny we have laid out before
        our life begins. Ouspensky realized this fact before he died. He
        realized that his destiny was mapped in order that his early
        achievements would lead him to Gurdjieff, and that this was what had
        been intended to begin with.

        In becoming the recognized authority for what was given by Gurdjieff
        in a rather oblique and piecemeal fashion over a period of four
        years, Ouspensky made the most of what the system was meant to
        convey. Wasn't it he who had to figure out the Food Diagram and Table
        of Hydrogen rationales on his own, as products inextricably linked to
        the ideas of the Ray of Creation, and the Law of Octaves? And he
        suffered mightily for it; such was his dedication to the pursuit of
        knowledge and intellectual excellence. It demonstrates that his one
        goal was what he sought to give, and thought he had failed to achieve
        in the end.
        ----From Quaternium Organum: An Introduction to Thinking in Spheres
      • Stephen Hale
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/12637 ... from ... contribute ... Western ... from ... Western ... world. ... Ouspensky s ... full ...
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
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          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/12637

          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
          <sardisian01@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
          > <sardisian01@> wrote:
          > "When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become
          > clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen —
          > they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual
          from
          > Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all
          > and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this
          > reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to
          contribute
          > something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from
          Western
          > Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies
          from
          > the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a
          > struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
          > violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and
          Western
          > European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral
          world."
          >
          >
          > "Conceptual life in the west, astral development in the east. It
          > should be of no surprise to anyone that the further development of
          > the conscious soul is set to take place in and around Russian. The
          > beautiful depictions conveyed through ancient Greek literature,
          > rising up to the surface once again, in a generalized conscious
          > soul's experience of the I." [Msg. 12636]
          >
          > Petr Demianovich Uspenskii was relatively self-taught, according to
          > J. H. Reyner's depiction of his early life in "The Unsung Genius".
          > At the age of three he was self conscious, and by age eight he was
          > reading Tolstoi and Dostoevski. He never went to a university and
          > received a degree. Instead, he was left alone to study whatever he
          > wanted. What a remarkable opportunity. And largely the reason we
          > have so much from one who truly sought the esoteric in terms of
          > knowledge and being. His was a life of 'thinking allowed' without
          > restraint. Yet, by age 37 he was tapped out in terms of what he
          > thought he could achieve on his own. The year was 1915. He gives
          > clear indication of being forlorn upon returning to Russia in
          > November of 1914. All was lost because he failed to find an
          > esoteric school in the east, and the World War had begun. And he
          > knew that a revolution in his own country was on the verge. He had
          > become a desperate man. G. I. Gurdjieff would enter into the
          > affairs of this man's life at the appropriate point, as a
          > salvation. He needed an intellectual receptacle, and Ouspensky had
          > it in spades.
          >
          > The secret to the fourth way concerns the meeting ground of these
          > two in Moscow, at a cafe in 1915, and the collaboration that formed
          > out of it. A key to understanding it, and the overall goal of the
          > mystical system that they forged together, can be found in the
          > chapter entitled, "Esotericism and Modern Thought", from
          Ouspensky's
          > book, A New Model of the Universe. This chapter expresses
          > Ouspensky's whole aim and emphasis, which culminated in his
          > association with Gurdjieff. As such, he potentially sacrificed his
          > own self-culmination in order to serve another master. But this was
          > a worthy endeavor, nonetheless. In fact, Ouspensky's whole legacy
          > is based on this signifcant relationship. But in his own right,
          > Ouspensky is the relatively unrecognized developer of reductive
          > (third force) reasoning, which gave way in favor of his
          > collaboration with Gurdjieff from 1915 to 1921. Interestingly, he
          > wrote the major content of A New Model of the Universe from 1907 to
          > 1911, with Tertium Organum coming in 1912. Therefore, A New Model
          > of the Universe forms the basis for Tertium Organum and its
          > emphasis.
          >
          > At the age of 29 he was working for the newspapers, with a desk
          full
          > of esoteric readings, e.g., "Atlantis and Lemuria" and desperately
          > wanting to realize higher knowledge. In Tertium Organum he deals
          > with all the really salient points for approaching higher
          > consciousness by way of the faculty of thinking. But he wanted
          > theory to graduate into practical application and true experience,
          > and this had escaped him. Thus, he was ripe for Gurdjieff's
          > influence at that time. Considering the first chapter of his book,
          > In Search Of the Miraculous, it seems clear that he was desperate
          > for some new direction, and looking for a guru. Thus, Gurdjieff
          > shows up, almost right on cue. Ouspensky needed an inspirational
          > spur that would have allowed his own full excellence to blossom. He
          > was right at the point of breakthrough; at least, he had certainly
          > earned it by 1915. It would appear that his meeting with Gurdjieff
          > was already planned, and his active participation in the
          > intellectual advancement of Gurdjieff's ideas assured.
          Consequently,
          > he devoted the rest of his life (1915-1947) to the clarification of
          > the ideas that belonged to someone else.
          >
          > It would seem reasonable, at the close of his life efforts, to
          > contemplate this sacrifice in favor of his own. It is said,
          > ref. "The Harmonious Circle", that he sought to make his own
          efforts
          > late in life; he wanted to achieve results for himself. And this
          has
          > demonstrated so much of the great nature of this man; that for 25
          > years he sacrificed his own development in favor of teaching others
          > the principles of this system. He gave his all in faithful service
          > to someone he felt was his superior, G. I. Gurdjieff. And even when
          > they parted ways, he was dedicated to him. So, in the end he
          > realized that his destiny had been fulfilled. That eternal
          > recurrence is nothing other than the destiny we have laid out
          before
          > our life begins. Ouspensky realized this fact before he died. He
          > realized that his destiny was mapped in order that his early
          > achievements would lead him to Gurdjieff, and that this was what
          had
          > been intended to begin with.
          >
          > In becoming the recognized authority for what was given by
          Gurdjieff
          > in a rather oblique and piecemeal fashion over a period of four
          > years, Ouspensky made the most of what the system was meant to
          > convey. Wasn't it he who had to figure out the Food Diagram and
          Table
          > of Hydrogen rationales on his own, as products inextricably linked
          to
          > the ideas of the Ray of Creation, and the Law of Octaves? And he
          > suffered mightily for it; such was his dedication to the pursuit
          of
          > knowledge and intellectual excellence. It demonstrates that his
          one
          > goal was what he sought to give, and thought he had failed to
          achieve
          > in the end.
          > ----From Quaternium Organum: An Introduction to Thinking in Spheres
          >
        • carol
          Steve, your fixation on this problématique appears to me to be, alas, another one of your famous , at whatever cost it
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
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            Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be, alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>, at whatever cost it involves.

            First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the sanctity of his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his childhood, aside that he was  gifted. You don't know what multiple influences may have played into his adult choice to follow Gurdjeiff's path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example. These may have had something to do with the physical, social, religious, political environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may have had something to do with the 7 generation family group soul 'situation', and/or personal biographic issues.

            As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric body 'types'- this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and Ouspenski. You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this 'etheric body' scenario?

            How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)

            Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-Marc, is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of a 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an area where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the formative forces inherent in the French language.

            How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does it derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative influence' it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in which you live?

            I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of Ukraine and Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting between east and west.

            Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in Micheal's court, no ?

             


            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@ wrote:
            >
            > "From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for
            > humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He
            > gives humanity impulses which retain the previous relation to the
            > divine-spiritual world, without this retention taking on a luciferic
            > character.
            >
            > For in the last third of the nineteenth century Michael pressed forward
            > in the physical world itself with the activity that he had prepared in
            > supersensible regions from the fifteenth up until the nineteenth
            > centuries.
            >
            > Humanity had to undergo for a while a spiritual development freeing it
            > from that relationship with the spiritual world which threatened to
            > become an impossible one. Thereupon this development was guided, through
            > the Michael mission, along paths which brought the progress of earthly
            > humanity back to a relationship with the spiritual world which is
            > beneficial to it.
            >
            > Thus in his activity Michael stands between the luciferic world-view and
            > the Ahrimanic world-intelligence. With Michael this world-view becomes a
            > wisdom filled world-revelation which reveals world-intelligence as
            > divine world-action. In this world-action lives Christ's wish for
            > humanity that thus Michael's world-revelation may be unveiled to the
            > human heart."
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > "If we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize his
            > peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death,
            > carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of
            > time. That is the difference between the West and the East. When the
            > ether bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend
            > to maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls "Gloire" is
            > impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for
            > a long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether
            > body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at
            > himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is
            > exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been
            > infected by materialistic thinking.
            >
            > The speedy separation and the diffusion of the ether body is accompanied
            > by a feeling of sensual pleasure, which is also present as a most
            > peculiar ingredient of national sentiment. How is this expressed in the
            > East (Central Europeans do not understand this just as they do not
            > empathize with the East.) Consider Dostoevsky and even Tolstoy or those
            > leading writers who are constantly speaking of "Russian man"; their
            > jargon is an expression of an undefined sensual pleasure surging from
            > their national sentiment. Even in Solowjow's philosophy, we find a vague
            > and stifling quality that the Central European man cannot reconcile with
            > the clarity and purity he seeks. This search for clarity and purity is
            > related to what is active in Europe as spiritual power.
            >
            > Certain preparations are necessary. When some souls in the course of the
            > twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world —
            > and that will happen — they would be disturbed by those ether bodies
            > that are residual from Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive
            > them first of all and would have a distorted vision of the Christ
            > figure. For this reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has
            > to contribute something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies
            > from Western Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether
            > bodies from the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in
            > a struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
            > violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western
            > European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world. This
            > furious battle between Russia and France is indeed going on in the
            > astral world and is led by Michael; it corresponds to the war that is
            > now being waged in Europe. We are often shaken by the knowledge that the
            > events in the physical world take place as exact opposites to those
            > occurring in the spiritual world, and that is precisely what is
            > happening in this case. The alliance between France and Russia can be
            > blamed on the seductive powers of Ahriman or, if you will, on the
            > ahrimanic element, the twenty billion francs that France gave to Russia.
            > This alliance is the physical expression of a struggle raging between
            > French and Russian souls, a struggle that has an impact on Central
            > Europe as it strives in its innermost soul for an encounter with the
            > Christ. It is the karma of Europe that we in Central Europe must
            > experience in an especially tragic way what the West and East must
            > settle between themselves. The only possible interpretation of the
            > external struggle between German and French elements is that the German
            > element lies in the middle and serves as an anvil for both East and
            > West. Germany, which is hammered by both sides in the conflict, is in
            > reality the subject of their own controversy. That is the spiritual
            > truth and quite different from what is happening in the physical world.
            > Consider how different the spiritual truth is from what is happening in
            > the physical world! This must strike contemporary man as grotesque, but
            > it nevertheless is the truth, which must have a shocking effect on us.
            >
            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html
            >

          • Stephen Hale
            ... at ... sanctity of ... Gurdjeiff s ... These may ... political ... have ... soul situation , ... body types - ... Ouspenski. ... Marc, ... a ... area ...
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
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              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
              > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
              at
              > whatever cost it involves.
              >
              > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
              > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
              sanctity of
              > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
              > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
              > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
              Gurdjeiff's
              > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
              These may
              > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
              political
              > environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may
              have
              > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
              soul 'situation',
              > and/or personal biographic issues.
              >
              > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
              body 'types'-
              > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
              > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
              Ouspenski.
              > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
              > 'etheric body' scenario?
              >
              > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
              >
              > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
              Marc,
              > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
              a
              > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
              area
              > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
              > formative forces inherent in the French language.
              >
              > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
              it
              > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
              influence'
              > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
              > which you live?
              >
              > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
              Ukraine and
              > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
              between
              > east and west.
              >
              > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
              Micheal's
              > court, no ?

              Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
              poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
              might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
              what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
              characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
              Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
              presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
              dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.


              "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
              work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
              incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
              this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
              on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
              body, `conscience' arises.

              Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
              something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
              entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
              itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
              as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
              kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
              alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
              by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
              then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
              (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
              wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
              of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

              Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
              belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
              is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
              transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
              if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
              himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
              able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
              during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
              Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
              transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
              means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
              during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
              transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

              When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
              training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
              the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
              Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
              transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
              memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
              transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
              terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
              it, `Budhi')."

              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/EduChild/EduChi_essay.html;mark=543,
              24,29#WN_mark
            • Mikko Nuuttila
              Hi, this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,
                this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                Mikko


                To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                From: sardisian01@...
                Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                at
                > whatever cost it involves.
                >
                > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                sanctity of
                > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                Gurdjeiff's
                > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                These may
                > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                political
                > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                have
                > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                soul 'situation',
                > and/or personal biographic issues.
                >
                > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                body 'types'-
                > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                Ouspenski.
                > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                > 'etheric body' scenario?
                >
                > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                >
                > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                Marc,
                > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                a
                > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                area
                > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                >
                > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                it
                > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                influence'
                > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                > which you live?
                >
                > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                Ukraine and
                > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                between
                > east and west.
                >
                > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                Micheal's
                > court, no ?

                Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                body, `conscience' arises.

                Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                it, `Budhi')."

                http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                24,29#WN_mark




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              • Mikko Nuuttila
                The link to the description of the night butterfly moves: http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com From:
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                  http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html


                  To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                  From: bellmeine@...
                  Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                  Hi,
                  this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                  Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                  Mikko



                  To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                  From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                  Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                  --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                  > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                  at
                  > whatever cost it involves.
                  >
                  > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                  > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                  sanctity of
                  > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                  > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                  > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                  Gurdjeiff's
                  > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                  These may
                  > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                  political
                  > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                  have
                  > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                  soul 'situation',
                  > and/or personal biographic issues.
                  >
                  > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                  body 'types'-
                  > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                  > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                  Ouspenski.
                  > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                  > 'etheric body' scenario?
                  >
                  > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                  >
                  > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                  Marc,
                  > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                  a
                  > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                  area
                  > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                  > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                  >
                  > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                  it
                  > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                  influence'
                  > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                  > which you live?
                  >
                  > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                  Ukraine and
                  > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                  between
                  > east and west.
                  >
                  > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                  Micheal's
                  > court, no ?

                  Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                  poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                  might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                  what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                  characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                  Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                  presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                  dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                  "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                  work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                  incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                  this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                  on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                  body, `conscience' arises.

                  Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                  something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                  entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                  itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                  as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                  kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                  alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                  by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                  then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                  (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                  wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                  of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                  Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                  belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                  is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                  transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                  if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                  himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                  able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                  during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                  Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                  transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                  means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                  during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                  transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                  When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                  training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                  the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                  Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                  transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                  memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                  transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                  terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                  it, `Budhi')."

                  http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                  24,29#WN_mark




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                • Mikko Nuuttila
                  The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light.
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words, Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him. Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later left the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations between Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about the last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for instance that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic stream, it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like that.
                    Mikko


                    To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                    From: bellmeine@...
                    Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:47:48 +0300
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                    The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                    http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html



                    To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                    Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                    Hi,
                    this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                    Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                    Mikko



                    To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                    Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                    --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                    > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                    at
                    > whatever cost it involves.
                    >
                    > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                    > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                    sanctity of
                    > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                    > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                    > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                    Gurdjeiff's
                    > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                    These may
                    > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                    political
                    > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                    have
                    > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                    soul 'situation',
                    > and/or personal biographic issues.
                    >
                    > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                    body 'types'-
                    > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                    > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                    Ouspenski.
                    > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                    > 'etheric body' scenario?
                    >
                    > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                    >
                    > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                    Marc,
                    > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                    a
                    > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                    area
                    > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                    > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                    >
                    > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                    it
                    > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                    influence'
                    > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                    > which you live?
                    >
                    > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                    Ukraine and
                    > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                    between
                    > east and west.
                    >
                    > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                    Micheal's
                    > court, no ?

                    Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                    poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                    might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                    what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                    characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                    Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                    presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                    dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                    "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                    work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                    incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                    this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                    on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                    body, `conscience' arises.

                    Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                    something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                    entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                    itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                    as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                    kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                    alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                    by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                    then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                    (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                    wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                    of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                    Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                    belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                    is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                    transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                    if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                    himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                    able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                    during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                    Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                    transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                    means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                    during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                    transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                    When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                    training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                    the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                    Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                    transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                    memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                    transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                    terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                    it, `Budhi')."

                    http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                    24,29#WN_mark




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                  • NINA
                    Dear Mikko, Am glad you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms.org you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc re-
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Mikko,
                      Am glad  you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms.org 
                      you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc
                      re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years. All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies." Your observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                       
                      Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more details.
                      Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal Pattern of Consciousness:A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                       
                      I mention Islam because am concerned about the militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement", based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of their sergents for firing on  supposedly unarmed Muslim women and children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination,etc. .(video of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an educational movie.)
                      Two of my  close friends - Muslim married to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one day!
                       
                      Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an opinion.
                      I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care - Nina
                       
                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47 AM
                      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                      http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html


                      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                      From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                      Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      Hi,
                      this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                      Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                      Mikko



                      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                      From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                      Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                      > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                      at
                      > whatever cost it involves.
                      >
                      > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                      > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                      sanctity of
                      > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                      > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                      > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                      Gurdjeiff's
                      > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                      These may
                      > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                      political
                      > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                      have
                      > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                      soul 'situation',
                      > and/or personal biographic issues.
                      >
                      > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                      body 'types'-
                      > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                      > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                      Ouspenski.
                      > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                      > 'etheric body' scenario?
                      >
                      > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                      >
                      > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                      Marc,
                      > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                      a
                      > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                      area
                      > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                      > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                      >
                      > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                      it
                      > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                      influence'
                      > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                      > which you live?
                      >
                      > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                      Ukraine and
                      > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                      between
                      > east and west.
                      >
                      > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                      Micheal's
                      > court, no ?

                      Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                      poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                      might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                      what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                      characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                      Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                      presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                      dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                      "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                      work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                      incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                      this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                      on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                      body, `conscience' arises.

                      Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                      something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                      entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                      itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                      as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                      kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                      alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                      by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                      then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                      (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                      wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                      of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                      Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                      belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                      is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                      transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                      if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                      himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                      able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                      during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                      Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                      transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                      means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                      during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                      transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                      When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                      training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                      the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                      Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                      transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                      memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                      transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                      terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                      it, `Budhi')."

                      http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                      24,29#WN_mark




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                    • Nina
                      Dear Mikko, I was mistaken that your message was a private email to me - did not see it was to the group...Too many RE-s are responsible! - N
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Mikko,
                        I was mistaken that your message was a private email to me - did not
                        see it was to the group...Too many RE-s are responsible! - N
                      • Mikko Nuuttila
                        Nina, Thanks for the link. I m in Kangasala, Finland. I ve read Maurice Cotterell s work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Nina,
                          Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.

                          Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.

                          Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.

                          Mikko


                          To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                          From: emeraldnina@...
                          Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ


                          Dear Mikko,
                          Am glad  you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms. org 
                          you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc
                          re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years. All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. " Your observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                           
                          Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more details.
                          Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal Pattern of Consciousness: A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                           
                          I mention Islam because am concerned about the militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement", based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of their sergents for firing on  supposedly unarmed Muslim women and children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination, etc. .(video of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an educational movie.)
                          Two of my  close friends - Muslim married to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one day!
                           
                          Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an opinion.
                          I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care - Nina
                           
                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47 AM
                          Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                          The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                          http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html



                          To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                          From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                          Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                          Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                          Hi,
                          this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                          Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                          Mikko



                          To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                          From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                          Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                          Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                          --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                          > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                          at
                          > whatever cost it involves.
                          >
                          > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                          > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                          sanctity of
                          > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                          > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                          > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                          Gurdjeiff's
                          > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                          These may
                          > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                          political
                          > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                          have
                          > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                          soul 'situation',
                          > and/or personal biographic issues.
                          >
                          > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                          body 'types'-
                          > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                          > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                          Ouspenski.
                          > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                          > 'etheric body' scenario?
                          >
                          > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                          >
                          > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                          Marc,
                          > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                          a
                          > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                          area
                          > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                          > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                          >
                          > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                          it
                          > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                          influence'
                          > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                          > which you live?
                          >
                          > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                          Ukraine and
                          > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                          between
                          > east and west.
                          >
                          > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                          Micheal's
                          > court, no ?

                          Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                          poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                          might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                          what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                          characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                          Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                          presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                          dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                          "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                          work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                          incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                          this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                          on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                          body, `conscience' arises.

                          Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                          something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                          entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                          itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                          as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                          kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                          alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                          by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                          then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                          (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                          wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                          of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                          Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                          belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                          is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                          transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                          if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                          himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                          able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                          during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                          Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                          transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                          means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                          during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                          transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                          When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                          training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                          the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                          Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                          transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                          memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                          transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                          terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                          it, `Budhi')."

                          http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                          24,29#WN_mark




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                        • Stephen Hale
                          ... hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words, Christ became just a
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why
                            hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
                            been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
                            Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
                            Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
                            heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later left
                            the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations between
                            Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
                            records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
                            he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about the
                            last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for instance
                            that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
                            was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
                            spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic stream,
                            it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
                            anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
                            that.
                            > Mikko


                            Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams up
                            to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
                            physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.

                            We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself. The
                            message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
                            mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.

                            Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the ancient
                            mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this himself
                            as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?

                            According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to the
                            ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
                            German.

                            Steve
                          • carol
                            Hi Mikko, Of course, all was not all bad on the American continents. Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls- and- there were likely
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Hi Mikko,  Of course, all was not 'all bad' on the American continents.  Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls-  and-  there were likely supersensible 'checks' in place to obstruct the forms of 'evil' which were being cultivated in those geographic and those other time settings-  so that they did not achieve their ultimate purpose.

                              ...One must not create illusions on this front-  the Heavens do work their forces into all matters of the world.   Very likely,  some central and south American incarnate souls would have represented the interests of the Higher Realms,  while a larger number would have allowed their soul forces to conform to the decadent trend of other spirit forms, by this time,  acting as empowerment for the lower realms.

                              One must avoid adhering to thinking which views life in 'absolute' terms.  In this,  there are dangers. FREEDOM comes more from within  the conscious, personal `soìl` which  the soul discreetly cultivates for itself over what 'sense' it can abstractly attach to a given significant situation.  In my view,  flexibility and mobility of soul is of outmost importance, in the first instance,  verbalizing it so that it be understood by the  'modern ear' comes second.  As well, ' best of luck' in verbalizing all aspects of a given situation...

                              Having stated the points above,  one must understand that flexibility and mobility of soul can be interpreted in differing ways,  depending on the individual's  soul`s level of TRUE spiritual development.

                               carol.

                               


                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Nina,
                              > Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.
                              >
                              > Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.
                              >
                              > Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.
                              >
                              > Mikko
                              >
                              > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: emeraldnina@...
                              > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Mikko,
                              > Am glad you wrote me. Thought of letting you
                              > know that on www.noblerealms.org
                              > you can search for info about the assemblage
                              > point,etc
                              > re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years.
                              > All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote
                              > "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies." Your
                              > observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                              >
                              > Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more
                              > details.
                              > Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal
                              > Pattern of Consciousness:A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce
                              > psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical
                              > knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the
                              > Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                              >
                              > I mention Islam because am concerned about the
                              > militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement",
                              > based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of
                              > their sergents for firing on supposedly unarmed Muslim women and
                              > children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get
                              > at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination,etc. .(video
                              > of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an
                              > educational movie.)
                              > Two of my close friends - Muslim married
                              > to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much
                              > Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one
                              > day!
                              >
                              > Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think
                              > South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of
                              > Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an
                              > opinion.
                              > I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care -
                              > Nina
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From:
                              > Mikko
                              > Nuuttila
                              > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47
                              > AM
                              > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
                              > Physical Christ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                              > http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              > From:
                              > bellmeine@...
                              > Date:
                              > Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                              > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
                              > Physical Christ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              > this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting
                              > discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the
                              > following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when
                              > people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the
                              > ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing
                              > night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the
                              > image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the
                              > second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they
                              > can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven
                              > (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes
                              > relevant.
                              >
                              > Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman
                              > in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity.
                              > According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms
                              > in dreams instead.
                              >
                              > Mikko
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                              > From:
                              > sardisian01@...
                              > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24
                              > +0000
                              > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
                              > "carol" organicethics@
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                              > >
                              > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                              >
                              > at
                              > > whatever cost it involves.
                              > >
                              > > First of all,
                              > Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                              > > years. Ouspenski
                              > was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                              > sanctity of
                              > > his world
                              > view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                              > > childhood, aside
                              > that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                              > > influences may have
                              > played into his adult choice to follow
                              > Gurdjeiff's
                              > > path as opposed
                              > to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                              > These may
                              > > have had
                              > something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                              > political
                              > >
                              > environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                              >
                              > have
                              > > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                              >
                              > soul 'situation',
                              > > and/or personal biographic issues.
                              > >
                              >
                              > > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                              > body
                              > 'types'-
                              > > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please,
                              > don't
                              > > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                              >
                              > Ouspenski.
                              > > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to
                              > study this
                              > > 'etheric body' scenario?
                              > >
                              > > How about
                              > Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                              > >
                              > > Just thought I'd
                              > let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                              > Marc,
                              > > is both
                              > Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                              > a
                              > >
                              > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                              >
                              > area
                              > > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good
                              > extent, the
                              > > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                              > >
                              >
                              > > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                              >
                              > it
                              > > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                              >
                              > influence'
                              > > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social
                              > environment in
                              > > which you live?
                              > >
                              > > I imagine that you
                              > know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                              > Ukraine and
                              > > Poland with
                              > an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                              > between
                              > > east and
                              > west.
                              > >
                              > > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some
                              > measure, in
                              > Micheal's
                              > > court, no ?
                              >
                              > Well, let us try another
                              > example. The intellectual soul is a very
                              > poor comprehender of deeper
                              > concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                              > might help in understanding what is
                              > easy, in terms of learning, and
                              > what is difficult in the unlearning of bad
                              > habits and rigid
                              > characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The
                              > Fourth
                              > Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                              >
                              > presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                              > dragon
                              > is waged in conscience with Michael.
                              >
                              > "What we call `conscience' is
                              > nothing else than the outcome of the
                              > work of the Ego on the life-body
                              > through incarnation after
                              > incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he
                              > ought not to do
                              > this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an
                              > impression
                              > on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                              > body,
                              > `conscience' arises.
                              >
                              > Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members
                              > may either be
                              > something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it
                              > may be
                              > entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working
                              > on
                              > itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                              >
                              > as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                              > kind
                              > of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                              > alone and
                              > of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                              > by its very own
                              > power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                              > then makes of the
                              > Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                              > (or by an Eastern
                              > expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                              > wrought mainly through a
                              > process of learning, through an enriching
                              > of one's inner life with higher
                              > ideas and perceptions.
                              >
                              > Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task,
                              > and it is one that
                              > belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens
                              > when not only
                              > is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                              >
                              > transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                              >
                              > if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                              >
                              > himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                              >
                              > able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                              >
                              > during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                              >
                              > Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                              >
                              > transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                              >
                              > means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                              >
                              > during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                              >
                              > transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.
                              >
                              >
                              > When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                              >
                              > training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                              > the
                              > very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                              > Individually and
                              > with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                              > transformation of his
                              > habits and his temperament, his character, his
                              > memory ... In so far as he
                              > thus works into his life-body, he
                              > transforms it into what is called in
                              > anthroposophical
                              > terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression
                              > has
                              > it, `Budhi')."
                              >
                              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/EduChild/EduChi_essay.html;mark=543,
                              > 24,29#WN_mark
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Ilmainen päivitys Windows Live Messengerillesi! Klikkaa!
                              >
                              >
                              > Liity nyt uuteen Windows Live Messenger perheeseen Klikkaa!
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Ota nyt käyttöösi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!
                              > http://get.live.com
                              >

                            • Robert Mason
                              ... for instance that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus was crucified on Golgotha.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                To Mikko, who wrote:

                                >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                for instance that they crucified a person
                                upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                crucified on Golgotha.<<

                                Robert writes:

                                That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                of Evolution*:
                                <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>

                                Mikko wrote:

                                >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                about South America, I've never seen any text
                                like that.<<

                                Robert writes:

                                He did indeed say something about South
                                America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                something to the effect that the religious
                                soul-configuration of the people in South
                                America is similar to that of the people in
                                Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                into these facts and the possible course of
                                future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                establish themselves in a strong position in
                                South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                Steiner's exact words or the reference.

                                In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                Bondarev says:

                                ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                state, putting man into the condition of
                                group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                [p. 45]

                                Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                development come to fruition and are passed on
                                to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                The true German culture comes to expression in
                                Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                in South America, but would be maimed and
                                distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                Europe...*

                                From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>

                                "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                undermined by the development of the actual
                                state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                retire into the background and make way for
                                others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                happen today. For this would mean that the
                                secret societies of the West would have
                                succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                be transposed to South America and take effect
                                only in a modified form. It would then come
                                into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                with renewed force."

                                Hope this helps,

                                Robert M
                              • Stephen Hale
                                ... Robert, Don t know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did. 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the german aryans
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                                  <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > To Mikko, who wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                  > for instance that they crucified a person
                                  > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                  > crucified on Golgotha.<<
                                  >
                                  > Robert writes:
                                  >
                                  > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                  > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                  > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                  > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                  > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                  > of Evolution*:
                                  > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
                                  >
                                  > Mikko wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                  > about South America, I've never seen any text
                                  > like that.<<
                                  >
                                  > Robert writes:
                                  >
                                  > He did indeed say something about South
                                  > America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                  > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                  > something to the effect that the religious
                                  > soul-configuration of the people in South
                                  > America is similar to that of the people in
                                  > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                  > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                  > into these facts and the possible course of
                                  > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                  > establish themselves in a strong position in
                                  > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                  > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                  > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
                                  >
                                  > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                  > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                  > Bondarev says:
                                  >
                                  > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                  > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                  > state, putting man into the condition of
                                  > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                  > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                  > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                  > [p. 45]
                                  >
                                  > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                  > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                  > rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                  > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                  > development come to fruition and are passed on
                                  > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                  > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                  > The true German culture comes to expression in
                                  > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                  > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                  > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                  > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                  > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                  > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                  > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                  > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                  > in South America, but would be maimed and
                                  > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                  > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                  > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                  > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                  > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                  > Europe...*
                                  >
                                  > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                  > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                  > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
                                  >
                                  > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                  > essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                  > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                  > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                  > those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                  > undermined by the development of the actual
                                  > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                  > patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                  > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                  > retire into the background and make way for
                                  > others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                  > happen today. For this would mean that the
                                  > secret societies of the West would have
                                  > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                  > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                  > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                  > would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                  > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                  > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                  > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                  > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                  > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                  > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                  > be transposed to South America and take effect
                                  > only in a modified form. It would then come
                                  > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                  > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                  > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                  > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                  > efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                  > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                  > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                  > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                  > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                  > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                  > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                  > with renewed force."
                                  >
                                  > Hope this helps,
                                  >
                                  > Robert M

                                  Robert,

                                  Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                  1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                  german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                  Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for this
                                  settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                  failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                  committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                  the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.

                                  And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                  again if anybody is interested.

                                  Steve
                                • Stephen Hale
                                  Also, isn t it interesting that the author s foreward to the book allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very early in this treatise
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Also, isn't it interesting that the author's foreward to the book
                                    allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very
                                    early in this treatise that Prokofieff was a complete product of the
                                    west? This assertion apparently comes from the Wimbauer book of
                                    1995, but it, in fact, forms the entire formative structure of the
                                    book.

                                    Thus, Prokofieff, and the entire GAS which supposedly supports the
                                    anthroposophical movement today, is a product of western formulation,
                                    regardless of the spiritual configuration of eastern europe.

                                    I believe that *that* is the most important point. Selling out
                                    anthroposophy to South America in a premature effort to instream the
                                    sixth cultural epoch into the fifth. And, of course, Amnerica is
                                    behind it with its greedy plan of democratic territorial expansion
                                    under the auspices of the Monroe Doctrine.

                                    Also, a very unhealthy dose of extreme magnetism doesn't help the
                                    cause. We all have *that* fact to fight as the ahrimanic influence
                                    centered in the west that some want to extend throughout the entire
                                    world. No wonder Europe is pissed. It comes from the divisive
                                    layer, or eighth subearthly level where the asuras hold sway, and the
                                    occultists succeed in bringing to the surface. And these occultists
                                    represent the western brotherhood, which gets to be our destiny to
                                    explain and fight.

                                    Steve



                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                    <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                                    > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > To Mikko, who wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                    > > for instance that they crucified a person
                                    > > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                    > > crucified on Golgotha.<<
                                    > >
                                    > > Robert writes:
                                    > >
                                    > > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                    > > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                    > > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                    > > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                    > > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                    > > of Evolution*:
                                    > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
                                    > >
                                    > > Mikko wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                    > > about South America, I've never seen any text
                                    > > like that.<<
                                    > >
                                    > > Robert writes:
                                    > >
                                    > > He did indeed say something about South
                                    > > America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                    > > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                    > > something to the effect that the religious
                                    > > soul-configuration of the people in South
                                    > > America is similar to that of the people in
                                    > > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                    > > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                    > > into these facts and the possible course of
                                    > > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                    > > establish themselves in a strong position in
                                    > > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                    > > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                    > > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
                                    > >
                                    > > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                    > > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                    > > Bondarev says:
                                    > >
                                    > > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                    > > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                    > > state, putting man into the condition of
                                    > > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                    > > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                    > > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                    > > [p. 45]
                                    > >
                                    > > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                    > > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                    > > rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                    > > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                    > > development come to fruition and are passed on
                                    > > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                    > > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                    > > The true German culture comes to expression in
                                    > > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                    > > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                    > > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                    > > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                    > > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                    > > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                    > > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                    > > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                    > > in South America, but would be maimed and
                                    > > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                    > > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                    > > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                    > > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                    > > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                    > > Europe...*
                                    > >
                                    > > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                    > > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                    > > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
                                    > >
                                    > > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                    > > essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                    > > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                    > > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                    > > those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                    > > undermined by the development of the actual
                                    > > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                    > > patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                    > > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                    > > retire into the background and make way for
                                    > > others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                    > > happen today. For this would mean that the
                                    > > secret societies of the West would have
                                    > > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                    > > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                    > > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                    > > would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                    > > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                    > > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                    > > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                    > > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                    > > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                    > > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                    > > be transposed to South America and take effect
                                    > > only in a modified form. It would then come
                                    > > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                    > > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                    > > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                    > > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                    > > efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                    > > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                    > > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                    > > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                    > > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                    > > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                    > > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                    > > with renewed force."
                                    > >
                                    > > Hope this helps,
                                    > >
                                    > > Robert M
                                    >
                                    > Robert,
                                    >
                                    > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                    > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                    > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                    > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                    this
                                    > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                    > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                    > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                    > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                    >
                                    > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                    > again if anybody is interested.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                  • Robert Mason
                                    ... this ... Sorry, Steve, but I don t understand much of this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                      <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                      > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                      > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                      > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                      > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                      this
                                      > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                      > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                      > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                      > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                      >
                                      > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                      > again if anybody is interested.

                                      Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                                      this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                      <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                                      <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                                      -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                                      nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                                      or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                                      connection between Proky and the premature
                                      6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                                      the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                                      Russia to South America. But I don't have
                                      the book and so don't have his exact words.

                                      Robert M
                                    • Stephen Hale
                                      ... a ... through ... say ... I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
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                                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason"
                                        <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                        > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                                        > > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                        > > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                        > > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                        > > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                        > this
                                        > > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of
                                        a
                                        > > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                        > > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived
                                        through
                                        > > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                        > >
                                        > > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will
                                        say
                                        > > again if anybody is interested.
                                        >
                                        > Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                                        > this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                        > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                                        > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                                        > -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                                        > nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                                        > or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                                        > connection between Proky and the premature
                                        > 6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                                        > the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                                        > Russia to South America. But I don't have
                                        > the book and so don't have his exact words.
                                        >
                                        > Robert M

                                        I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry
                                        of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South America, and
                                        this is quite evident with the aims of the National Socialists of
                                        Germany. By referring to Nietzsche's sister and her very chauvinist
                                        husband, we can get a very early grasp of a failed plan as far back
                                        as 1889.

                                        Prokofieff is the advocate of a premature instreaming of the sixth
                                        cultural epoch into the fifth through the 'idea' of the Being
                                        Anthroposophia. We have both engaged in heavy battle concerning the
                                        advocacy of this, coming from a certain quarter of the
                                        anthroposophical movement which seems to be centered here in America.

                                        My research indicates that Prokofieff was, indeed, a product of the
                                        western formulation of anthroposophy, and that he and Irina Gordienko
                                        actually had an intimate relationship prior to the writing of her
                                        book.

                                        As for G & O, that is the *real* Russian response to Michael's call
                                        to the Russian Folk Soul back in 1915, when the young etheric bodies
                                        stood before the vault.

                                        Steve
                                      • Stephen Hale
                                        ... why ... left ... between ... the ... instance ... stream, ... up ... The ... ancient ... himself ... the ... It is the body going into the ground that
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
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                                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                          <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God,
                                          why
                                          > hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
                                          > been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
                                          > Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
                                          > Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
                                          > heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later
                                          left
                                          > the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations
                                          between
                                          > Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
                                          > records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
                                          > he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about
                                          the
                                          > last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for
                                          instance
                                          > that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
                                          > was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
                                          > spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic
                                          stream,
                                          > it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
                                          > anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
                                          > that.
                                          > > Mikko
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams
                                          up
                                          > to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
                                          > physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.
                                          >
                                          > We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself.
                                          The
                                          > message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
                                          > mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.
                                          >
                                          > Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the
                                          ancient
                                          > mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this
                                          himself
                                          > as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?
                                          >
                                          > According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to
                                          the
                                          > ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
                                          > German.


                                          It is the body going into the ground that makes for *Us* being the
                                          source of light that streams up to the Sun Logos. Jesus never gets
                                          credit for that. It's all about Christ ascending into the sky and
                                          disappearing into the clouds.

                                          I once talked to some friends about the historical resurrection of
                                          Jesus, and how the body had gone into the ground after an eclipse and
                                          an earthquake, and they branded me a heretic. I thought that *that*
                                          was common knowledge. Nope.

                                          Apparently, fundamentalists truly believe that when Thomas had to
                                          have proof that Jesus had resurrected that He said: "Place your
                                          fingers in these wounds and see". And Thomas exclaimed: "My Lord, My
                                          God!"

                                          And this meant a physical resurrection. This is what the
                                          fundamentalists of all the denominations believe, to this day.

                                          Steve
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