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Re: The Physical Christ

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  • carol
    Second Contemplation: How the Michael Forces Functioned During the first unfolding of the Consciousness Soul At the time of the dawn of the consciousness soul
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008

      Second Contemplation:

      How the Michael Forces Functioned During the first unfolding of the Consciousness Soul

      At the time of the dawn of the consciousness soul in man's earthly evolution, it was difficult for the beings from the spiritual region closest to the earth to approach humanity. Earthly events acquired a form which showed that relations of a very special kind were necessary spirituality to make its way into the physical life of man. But on the other hand that form also shows in an often most clarifying manner how where spiritual powers of the past are still active and the powers of the future already begin to be active, one spiritual entity energetically seeks its way into humanity's earthy life in opposition to the other.

      Between 1339 and 1453 France and England were engaged in a senseless war for over a hundred years. These spiritually chaotic events, unfavorable for human development, were responsible for delaying the introduction of the consciousness soul, which would have appeared sooner had those events not occurred. Chaucer, who died in 1400, laid the foundation for English literature. One needs only to consider the spiritual consequences for Europe of this foundation and one will find it meaningful that it could not develop freely, but succumbed to the confusion of war. Furthermore, already earlier (1215) the political thinking characteristic of the consciousness soul began to take shape in England. The further development of this event was also hindered by the chaos of war.

      This was a time when the spiritual forces wanting man to develop as he had been disposed from the beginning by the divine-spiritual forces above them met their adversaries. These adversaries wished to detour man onto roads other than those meant for him from the beginning. He would then not be able to use the forces of his origin for his subsequent evolution. His cosmic childhood would thus remain unfruitful. It would be like a fading part of his being. The result would be that man could become prey to the Luciferic or Ahrimanic powers and his individual development would fall short. If the efforts these anti-human adversary powers had been completely successful instead of merely hindering, the introduction of the consciousness soul could have been completely prevented.

      An event which illustrates especially well the streaming of the spirituality into earthly events was the emergence and destiny of Jeanne d'Arc, the maid of Orleans (1412-1431). What she did came from the deepest subconscious fount of her soul. She followed the faint inspirations of the spiritual world. Chaos reigned on earth, through which the consciousness soul age was to be hindered. Michael had to prepare his future mission from the spiritual world. He is only able to do so when his impulses are received by human souls. The Maid of Orleans had such a soul. He also acted through many other souls, even when it was only possible in a moderate way and is less apparent to official history. He met his Ahrimanic adversary in such events as the war between England and France.

      The Luciferic adversary he met in those times was spoken of in the previous contemplation. But the events show that that adversary was also especially active in the time following the Maid of Orlean's appearance. One sees in those events that humanity was unable to contend with the intervention of the spirit-world in human affairs, which was understood and could also be integrated into the will at a time when imaginative understanding was still present. Contention with such intervention became impossible with the ceasing of the rational or mind soul; the position corresponding to the consciousness soul was not yet found at that time; it has not yet been accomplished even today.

      What happened was that Europe's formation was arranged from the spiritual world, without man realizing what was happening and without his efforts having a meaningful influence over this formation.

      One needs only to imagine what would have happened in the fifteenth century if there had been no Maid of Orleans, to appreciate the meaning of those events, which were realized from the spirit world. There are also people who try to explain such occurrences materialistically. Making them understand is impossible, because they arbitrarily give a materialistic meaning to what is obviously spiritual.

      This clearly shows that humanity's striving to find the path to divine spirituality is no longer without difficulties, even when it is intensively sought. Such difficulties did not exist in the age when insight could be obtained by means of imaginations. In order to correctly judge what is meant, it is only necessary to clearly observe the persons who have come forth as philosophers. A philosopher cannot be judged only by his effect on his times, nor how many people have taken up his ideas. He is much more the expression, the personification of his times. What the majority of people already experience as unconscious feelings and motives are introduced by the philosopher with his ideas. He indicates the mentality of his times as a thermometer indicates the temperature of its surroundings. Philosophers are as little the cause of the mentality of their times as the thermometer is of the temperature of its surroundings.

      In this respect, consider the philosopher René Descartes (1596 – 1650), who was active when the consciousness soul age was already in progress. The thin thread of his connection with the spirit world (true being) is his experience of "I think, therefore I am". In the center of the consciousness soul, the I, he tries to experience reality; and only to the extent the consciousness soul can tell him.

      And he seeks clarity about the rest of spirituality by intellectually investigating how much guarantee the certainty of his own self-awareness provides for the certainly of other things. He asks everywhere about the truths which have been handed down historically: are they as clear as "I think, therefore I am"? If he can affirm this, he accepts them. Doesn't this kind of thinking directed towards the things of the world ignore the spirit? This spirit's revelation has restricted itself to the thinnest thread in self-awareness; everything else shows itself to be directly revealed without spiritual revelation. What lies beyond self-awareness can only indirectly throw a flicker of light of this spiritual revelation into the consciousness soul through the intellect.

      The person of that time lets his still relatively empty-of-content consciousness soul strive with intense desire towards the spiritual world. A thin stream gets there.

      The beings of the spirit-world directly bordering on the earth, and the human souls on earth, came together with difficulty. Michael's supersensible preparation for his later mission was experienced by human souls only with the greatest inhibitions.

      We may compare, in order to understand the different mentalities, the ones expressed by Descartes and Augustine, the latter possessing the same slim foundation for experiencing the spiritual world as Descartes – at least in respect to his formulations. Except that in Augustine's case it derived from the full imaginative force of the rational or mind soul. (He lived from 354 to 430.) Augustine and Descartes are considered to be related – and correctly so. However, Augustine's intellect was still a vestige of the cosmos, whereas Descartes' intellect had been absorbed into the individual human soul. One can see from the process of spiritual striving from Augustine to Descartes how the cosmic character of thinking power is lost, and then appears again in the human soul. At the same time one can also see how Michael and human minds come together under difficult conditions, so that Michael can guide them, as he once did in the cosmos.

      The luciferic andaAhrimanic forces are at work to obstruct this coordination. The luciferic forces want man to develop only what was appropriate to his cosmic infancy. The ahrimanic ones, in opposition but simultaneously collaborating, would like to see only the forces to be developed during a later epoch flourish, and let the cosmic infancy fade out.

      Against such increasing opposition, the human souls of Europe processed the spiritual impulses of the old worldview ideas streaming from the East to the West through the Crusades. The Michael forces lived strongly in those ideas. Cosmic intelligence, the direction of which was Michael's ancient spiritual heritage, dominated these worldviews.

      How could they be absorbed when a chasm existed between the forces of the spirit-world and human souls? They fell into the slowly evolving consciousness soul. On one side they encountered the obstacle which was found in the still weakly developed consciousness soul, which lamed them. On the other side they no longer found an imaginative consciousness. Human souls could no longer connect to them with insight. They were received either superficially or superstitiously.

      Names such as Wicliff, Huss and others on one hand, and the term "Rosicrucian" on the other, should be understood with this mentality in mind.

      We will speak of this further.

      (The continuation of this second contemplation and the third will follow.)

      Goetheanum, November 30, 1924

      128. In this lack of coherence a spiritual opportunity existed for the luciferic powers to hold back humanity at its cosmic childhood, and not permit it to develop further on the divine spiritual paths with which it was united from the beginning, but on luciferic ones.

      129. Furthermore, the spiritual opportunity existed for the ahrimanic powers to strangulate humanity from its cosmic childhood and thus absorb it into their own realm in its future evolution.

      130. Neither of these things happened, because the Michael-forces were active; but human spiritual development had to take place under the hindrances caused by these opportunities, and became what it is now because of them.

      Continuation of the Second Contemplation:

      Hindrance and Furtherance of the Michael Forces at the

      Dawn of the Conscious Soul Age

      In all of Europe the incorporation of the consciousness soul also had the effect of disturbing religious faith as well as the experience of ritual. At the turn of the eleventh and twelfth centuries one sees the advance notices of this disturbance in the appearance of the "proofs of God" (especially by Anselm of Canterbury). The existence of God was to be proven through reason. Such a desire could only appear as the old way, to experience "God" with the soul's forces, was disappearing. For what one experiences in that way cannot be proven logically.

      The previous way was for the soul to perceive the intelligent beings – up to the Godhead; the new way became to form thoughts intellectually about the "primal ground" of the universe. The first way was supported by the forces of Michael in the spiritual regions at the periphery of the earth, which equipped the soul with capacities beyond the forces of sense-thinking to perceive the intelligent beings in the universe; for the second way the soul's connection with the Michael-forces first had to accomplished.

      Extensive areas of human religious life, such as the central teaching of Holy Communion, began to falter – throughWicliff in England (fifteenth century) to Huss in Bohemia.

      In Holy Communion man could find his connection to the spirit-world, which was opened to him by Christ, for he was able to unite his being with Christ in such a way that the fact of union through the senses was at the same time a spiritual one.

      The consciousness of the rational or mind-soul was able to understand this union. For this soul could still conceive of the spirit as well as of matter, which were so close that the transition of the one (matter) into the other (spirit), was conceivable.

      Such ideas should not be so intellectual that they require proof of God's existence; they must be ideas which still have something of imagination. Thereby the active spirit in matter is felt, and in the spirit the striving for matter. Behind ideas of this kind are Michael's cosmic forces.

      Just consider how much faltered for the human soul during that time! How much of what was related to its most inner and holiest experience! Personalities such as Huss, Wicliff and others appeared, in whom the consciousness soul shone brightest, whose soul constitutions strongly united them with the Michael-forces, something which would happen to others centuries later. They asserted the consciousness soul's right to vibrantly grasp the religious mysteries. They felt: intellectuality, which arose together with the consciousness soul, must be capable of including in its ideas what was achieved through imagination in older times.

      On the other hand, the human soul's old traditional attitude had lost all its inner strength in the widest circles. What is historically called abuses of the religious life, with which the great reformation councils occupied themselves at the time of the beginning of consciousness soul's activity, is all related to the lives of those who did not yet feel the consciousness soul within them, but could no longer find something which could give them inner strength and certainty in the rational or mind-soul.

      One can truly say that such historical human experiences as came about in the councils of Constance and Basel, illustrate the streaming down of intellectuality towards humanity from the spirit world above, and below the earthly region with its no longer timely rational or mind-soul. In between the Michael-forces oscillated, looking back at their previous connection to divine spirituality and downward at humanity, which also had that connection, but which now had to move to a sphere in which Michael would have to help spiritually, although he was not yet able to inwardly unite with that sphere. In Michael's efforts, which are necessary in cosmic evolution, but which nevertheless are at first a disturbance of the equilibrium in the cosmos, is also the reason for what humanity experienced at that time in regard to the holiest truths.

      One looks deeply into the characteristics of that age by studying Cardinal Nicolaus Cusanus. (See references to him in my book Mysticism and Modern Thought.) His personality is like a signpost of the times. He wanted to enforce viewpoints which would not combat the physical world's evils with fanatical tendencies, but with common sense – to get the train of thought back on track. His actions at the Council of Basel and in his church parish are evidence of this.

      Nicolaus tends completely towards the evolutionary transition to the consciousness soul, and on the other hand he reveals viewpoints which indicate the forces of Michael in shining armor. He included the good old ideas, those which lead human minds toward the development of capacities for the perception of intelligences in the cosmos, when Michael still directed the Universal-Intellectuality. The "learned ignorance" of which he spoke refers to what is beyond understanding through sense perception: that thinking beyond intellectuality (common knowledge) leads into a region where – unknowingly – the spiritual is grasped in living vision.

      Thus Nicolaus is a person who, feeling the disturbance of cosmic equilibrium through Michael in his own soul, would intuitively like to do everything possible to orient this disturbance towards the healing of humanity.

      Something else hidden existed between these events. Individual personalities who understood the meaning of the Michael forces in the universe wished to prepare their own souls to be able to consciously find access to the spiritual region bordering the earthly region, where Michael was working for the benefit of humanity.

      They sought justification for this spiritual undertaking by acting in their professions and otherwise in such a way that they would not be distinguishable from others. Thereby, that they carried out their earthly duties in such a loving way, they were able to freely devote their inner selves to the mentioned spiritual task. What they did in this respect were the things for which they came together "in secret". From the standpoint of what happened physically, the world was at first apparently untouched by this spiritual striving. Nevertheless, it was necessary in order to connect souls to the Michael-World. They were not "secret societies" in any negative sense, not seekers for what is hidden because it shuns the light of day. Rather were they associations of people who were convinced that their members were conscious of Michael's mission. Therefore they did not speak of their work in front of those who would only disturb their tasks due to lack of understanding. These tasks consisted at first of working in spiritual streams which did not move in earthly life, but in the neighboring spirit-world which, however, sent its spiritual impulses into earthly life.

      It was a matter of the spiritual activity of people who stood in the physical world, but cooperated with Beings of the spirit-world, with Beings who did not incorporate into the physical world. They were called – not very accurately – Rosicrucians. True Rosicrucianism was completely in line with the Michael-Mission activity. It helped Michael prepare his spiritual work on earth for what he intended for a future age.

      We can judge what happened by taking the following into account.

      The difficulty, rather the impossibility for Michael to enter human souls was because he did not want to come in any way into contact with the contemporary physical world. He wanted to remain in the force complex that existed for spirits of his kind and for humans in the past. Any contact with what man must come into contact with in physical earthly life could only be considered by Michael to be a contamination of his being. In normal human life, the soul's spiritual experiences work into his physical earthly life, and the latter into the former. This reverse effect is evidenced namely in man's attitude and his orientation towards the earthly. Such intertwining effects is the rule – although not always – especially for people in public life. Therefore Michael's activities in respect to many reformers encountered strong hindrances.

      The Rosicrucians overcame these difficulties by keeping their normal lives with their earthly duties totally apart from their work with Michael. When he, with his impulses, encountered what a Rosicrucian had prepared for him in his soul, he found himself in no way exposed to the danger of earthly contact. Because what united the Rosicrucian with Michael was kept safely away by the Rosicrucian's state of soul.

      Therewith true Rosicrucian resolve built the path to be found on earth for Michael's coming mission.

      (The third contemplation follows.)

      Goetheanum, December 6, 1924

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_world/message/760

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_world/message/762

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_world/message/795

      (Again,  gratitude to Frank ! ) 

       

       


       

       

    • Stephen Hale
      ... From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He gives humanity
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008


        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:

        "From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He gives humanity impulses which retain the previous relation to the divine-spiritual world, without this retention taking on a luciferic character.
         
        For in the last third of the nineteenth century Michael pressed forward in the physical world itself with the activity that he had prepared in supersensible regions from the fifteenth up until the nineteenth centuries.

        Humanity had to undergo for a while a spiritual development freeing it from that relationship with the spiritual world which threatened to become an impossible one. Thereupon this development was guided, through the Michael mission, along paths which brought the progress of earthly humanity back to a relationship with the spiritual world which is beneficial to it.
         
        Thus in his activity Michael stands between the luciferic world-view and the Ahrimanic world-intelligence. With Michael this world-view becomes a wisdom filled world-revelation which reveals world-intelligence as divine world-action. In this world-action lives Christ's wish for humanity that thus Michael's world-revelation may be unveiled to the human heart."

         

        "If we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize his peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death, carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of time. That is the difference between the West and the East. When the ether bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend to maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls "Gloire" is impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for a long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been infected by materialistic thinking.

        The speedy separation and the diffusion of the ether body is accompanied by a feeling of sensual pleasure, which is also present as a most peculiar ingredient of national sentiment. How is this expressed in the East (Central Europeans do not understand this just as they do not empathize with the East.) Consider Dostoevsky and even Tolstoy or those leading writers who are constantly speaking of "Russian man"; their jargon is an expression of an undefined sensual pleasure surging from their national sentiment. Even in Solowjow's philosophy, we find a vague and stifling quality that the Central European man cannot reconcile with the clarity and purity he seeks. This search for clarity and purity is related to what is active in Europe as spiritual power.

        Certain preparations are necessary. When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen — they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual from Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to contribute something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from Western Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies from the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world. This furious battle between Russia and France is indeed going on in the astral world and is led by Michael; it corresponds to the war that is now being waged in Europe. We are often shaken by the knowledge that the events in the physical world take place as exact opposites to those occurring in the spiritual world, and that is precisely what is happening in this case. The alliance between France and Russia can be blamed on the seductive powers of Ahriman or, if you will, on the ahrimanic element, the twenty billion francs that France gave to Russia. This alliance is the physical expression of a struggle raging between French and Russian souls, a struggle that has an impact on Central Europe as it strives in its innermost soul for an encounter with the Christ. It is the karma of Europe that we in Central Europe must experience in an especially tragic way what the West and East must settle between themselves. The only possible interpretation of the external struggle between German and French elements is that the German element lies in the middle and serves as an anvil for both East and West. Germany, which is hammered by both sides in the conflict, is in reality the subject of their own controversy. That is the spiritual truth and quite different from what is happening in the physical world. Consider how different the spiritual truth is from what is happening in the physical world! This must strike contemporary man as grotesque, but it nevertheless is the truth, which must have a shocking effect on us.

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html

      • Stephen Hale
        ... wrote: When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
          <sardisian01@...> wrote:
          "When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become
          clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen —
          they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual from
          Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all
          and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this
          reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to contribute
          something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from Western
          Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies from
          the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a
          struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
          violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western
          European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world."


          "Conceptual life in the west, astral development in the east. It
          should be of no surprise to anyone that the further development of
          the conscious soul is set to take place in and around Russian. The
          beautiful depictions conveyed through ancient Greek literature,
          rising up to the surface once again, in a generalized conscious
          soul's experience of the I." [Msg. 12636]

          Petr Demianovich Uspenskii was relatively self-taught, according to
          J. H. Reyner's depiction of his early life in "The Unsung Genius".
          At the age of three he was self conscious, and by age eight he was
          reading Tolstoi and Dostoevski. He never went to a university and
          received a degree. Instead, he was left alone to study whatever he
          wanted. What a remarkable opportunity. And largely the reason we
          have so much from one who truly sought the esoteric in terms of
          knowledge and being. His was a life of 'thinking allowed' without
          restraint. Yet, by age 37 he was tapped out in terms of what he
          thought he could achieve on his own. The year was 1915. He gives
          clear indication of being forlorn upon returning to Russia in
          November of 1914. All was lost because he failed to find an
          esoteric school in the east, and the World War had begun. And he
          knew that a revolution in his own country was on the verge. He had
          become a desperate man. G. I. Gurdjieff would enter into the
          affairs of this man's life at the appropriate point, as a
          salvation. He needed an intellectual receptacle, and Ouspensky had
          it in spades.

          The secret to the fourth way concerns the meeting ground of these
          two in Moscow, at a cafe in 1915, and the collaboration that formed
          out of it. A key to understanding it, and the overall goal of the
          mystical system that they forged together, can be found in the
          chapter entitled, "Esotericism and Modern Thought", from Ouspensky's
          book, A New Model of the Universe. This chapter expresses
          Ouspensky's whole aim and emphasis, which culminated in his
          association with Gurdjieff. As such, he potentially sacrificed his
          own self-culmination in order to serve another master. But this was
          a worthy endeavor, nonetheless. In fact, Ouspensky's whole legacy
          is based on this signifcant relationship. But in his own right,
          Ouspensky is the relatively unrecognized developer of reductive
          (third force) reasoning, which gave way in favor of his
          collaboration with Gurdjieff from 1915 to 1921. Interestingly, he
          wrote the major content of A New Model of the Universe from 1907 to
          1911, with Tertium Organum coming in 1912. Therefore, A New Model
          of the Universe forms the basis for Tertium Organum and its
          emphasis.

          At the age of 29 he was working for the newspapers, with a desk full
          of esoteric readings, e.g., "Atlantis and Lemuria" and desperately
          wanting to realize higher knowledge. In Tertium Organum he deals
          with all the really salient points for approaching higher
          consciousness by way of the faculty of thinking. But he wanted
          theory to graduate into practical application and true experience,
          and this had escaped him. Thus, he was ripe for Gurdjieff's
          influence at that time. Considering the first chapter of his book,
          In Search Of the Miraculous, it seems clear that he was desperate
          for some new direction, and looking for a guru. Thus, Gurdjieff
          shows up, almost right on cue. Ouspensky needed an inspirational
          spur that would have allowed his own full excellence to blossom. He
          was right at the point of breakthrough; at least, he had certainly
          earned it by 1915. It would appear that his meeting with Gurdjieff
          was already planned, and his active participation in the
          intellectual advancement of Gurdjieff's ideas assured. Consequently,
          he devoted the rest of his life (1915-1947) to the clarification of
          the ideas that belonged to someone else.

          It would seem reasonable, at the close of his life efforts, to
          contemplate this sacrifice in favor of his own. It is said,
          ref. "The Harmonious Circle", that he sought to make his own efforts
          late in life; he wanted to achieve results for himself. And this has
          demonstrated so much of the great nature of this man; that for 25
          years he sacrificed his own development in favor of teaching others
          the principles of this system. He gave his all in faithful service
          to someone he felt was his superior, G. I. Gurdjieff. And even when
          they parted ways, he was dedicated to him. So, in the end he
          realized that his destiny had been fulfilled. That eternal
          recurrence is nothing other than the destiny we have laid out before
          our life begins. Ouspensky realized this fact before he died. He
          realized that his destiny was mapped in order that his early
          achievements would lead him to Gurdjieff, and that this was what had
          been intended to begin with.

          In becoming the recognized authority for what was given by Gurdjieff
          in a rather oblique and piecemeal fashion over a period of four
          years, Ouspensky made the most of what the system was meant to
          convey. Wasn't it he who had to figure out the Food Diagram and Table
          of Hydrogen rationales on his own, as products inextricably linked to
          the ideas of the Ray of Creation, and the Law of Octaves? And he
          suffered mightily for it; such was his dedication to the pursuit of
          knowledge and intellectual excellence. It demonstrates that his one
          goal was what he sought to give, and thought he had failed to achieve
          in the end.
          ----From Quaternium Organum: An Introduction to Thinking in Spheres
        • Stephen Hale
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/12637 ... from ... contribute ... Western ... from ... Western ... world. ... Ouspensky s ... full ...
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/12637

            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
            <sardisian01@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
            > <sardisian01@> wrote:
            > "When some souls in the course of the twentieth century become
            > clairvoyant to life in the etheric world — and that will happen —
            > they would be disturbed by those ether bodies that are residual
            from
            > Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive them first of all
            > and would have a distorted vision of the Christ figure. For this
            > reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has to
            contribute
            > something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies from
            Western
            > Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether bodies
            from
            > the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in a
            > struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
            > violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and
            Western
            > European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral
            world."
            >
            >
            > "Conceptual life in the west, astral development in the east. It
            > should be of no surprise to anyone that the further development of
            > the conscious soul is set to take place in and around Russian. The
            > beautiful depictions conveyed through ancient Greek literature,
            > rising up to the surface once again, in a generalized conscious
            > soul's experience of the I." [Msg. 12636]
            >
            > Petr Demianovich Uspenskii was relatively self-taught, according to
            > J. H. Reyner's depiction of his early life in "The Unsung Genius".
            > At the age of three he was self conscious, and by age eight he was
            > reading Tolstoi and Dostoevski. He never went to a university and
            > received a degree. Instead, he was left alone to study whatever he
            > wanted. What a remarkable opportunity. And largely the reason we
            > have so much from one who truly sought the esoteric in terms of
            > knowledge and being. His was a life of 'thinking allowed' without
            > restraint. Yet, by age 37 he was tapped out in terms of what he
            > thought he could achieve on his own. The year was 1915. He gives
            > clear indication of being forlorn upon returning to Russia in
            > November of 1914. All was lost because he failed to find an
            > esoteric school in the east, and the World War had begun. And he
            > knew that a revolution in his own country was on the verge. He had
            > become a desperate man. G. I. Gurdjieff would enter into the
            > affairs of this man's life at the appropriate point, as a
            > salvation. He needed an intellectual receptacle, and Ouspensky had
            > it in spades.
            >
            > The secret to the fourth way concerns the meeting ground of these
            > two in Moscow, at a cafe in 1915, and the collaboration that formed
            > out of it. A key to understanding it, and the overall goal of the
            > mystical system that they forged together, can be found in the
            > chapter entitled, "Esotericism and Modern Thought", from
            Ouspensky's
            > book, A New Model of the Universe. This chapter expresses
            > Ouspensky's whole aim and emphasis, which culminated in his
            > association with Gurdjieff. As such, he potentially sacrificed his
            > own self-culmination in order to serve another master. But this was
            > a worthy endeavor, nonetheless. In fact, Ouspensky's whole legacy
            > is based on this signifcant relationship. But in his own right,
            > Ouspensky is the relatively unrecognized developer of reductive
            > (third force) reasoning, which gave way in favor of his
            > collaboration with Gurdjieff from 1915 to 1921. Interestingly, he
            > wrote the major content of A New Model of the Universe from 1907 to
            > 1911, with Tertium Organum coming in 1912. Therefore, A New Model
            > of the Universe forms the basis for Tertium Organum and its
            > emphasis.
            >
            > At the age of 29 he was working for the newspapers, with a desk
            full
            > of esoteric readings, e.g., "Atlantis and Lemuria" and desperately
            > wanting to realize higher knowledge. In Tertium Organum he deals
            > with all the really salient points for approaching higher
            > consciousness by way of the faculty of thinking. But he wanted
            > theory to graduate into practical application and true experience,
            > and this had escaped him. Thus, he was ripe for Gurdjieff's
            > influence at that time. Considering the first chapter of his book,
            > In Search Of the Miraculous, it seems clear that he was desperate
            > for some new direction, and looking for a guru. Thus, Gurdjieff
            > shows up, almost right on cue. Ouspensky needed an inspirational
            > spur that would have allowed his own full excellence to blossom. He
            > was right at the point of breakthrough; at least, he had certainly
            > earned it by 1915. It would appear that his meeting with Gurdjieff
            > was already planned, and his active participation in the
            > intellectual advancement of Gurdjieff's ideas assured.
            Consequently,
            > he devoted the rest of his life (1915-1947) to the clarification of
            > the ideas that belonged to someone else.
            >
            > It would seem reasonable, at the close of his life efforts, to
            > contemplate this sacrifice in favor of his own. It is said,
            > ref. "The Harmonious Circle", that he sought to make his own
            efforts
            > late in life; he wanted to achieve results for himself. And this
            has
            > demonstrated so much of the great nature of this man; that for 25
            > years he sacrificed his own development in favor of teaching others
            > the principles of this system. He gave his all in faithful service
            > to someone he felt was his superior, G. I. Gurdjieff. And even when
            > they parted ways, he was dedicated to him. So, in the end he
            > realized that his destiny had been fulfilled. That eternal
            > recurrence is nothing other than the destiny we have laid out
            before
            > our life begins. Ouspensky realized this fact before he died. He
            > realized that his destiny was mapped in order that his early
            > achievements would lead him to Gurdjieff, and that this was what
            had
            > been intended to begin with.
            >
            > In becoming the recognized authority for what was given by
            Gurdjieff
            > in a rather oblique and piecemeal fashion over a period of four
            > years, Ouspensky made the most of what the system was meant to
            > convey. Wasn't it he who had to figure out the Food Diagram and
            Table
            > of Hydrogen rationales on his own, as products inextricably linked
            to
            > the ideas of the Ray of Creation, and the Law of Octaves? And he
            > suffered mightily for it; such was his dedication to the pursuit
            of
            > knowledge and intellectual excellence. It demonstrates that his
            one
            > goal was what he sought to give, and thought he had failed to
            achieve
            > in the end.
            > ----From Quaternium Organum: An Introduction to Thinking in Spheres
            >
          • carol
            Steve, your fixation on this problématique appears to me to be, alas, another one of your famous , at whatever cost it
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008

              Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be, alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>, at whatever cost it involves.

              First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the sanctity of his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his childhood, aside that he was  gifted. You don't know what multiple influences may have played into his adult choice to follow Gurdjeiff's path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example. These may have had something to do with the physical, social, religious, political environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may have had something to do with the 7 generation family group soul 'situation', and/or personal biographic issues.

              As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric body 'types'- this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and Ouspenski. You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this 'etheric body' scenario?

              How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)

              Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-Marc, is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of a 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an area where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the formative forces inherent in the French language.

              How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does it derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative influence' it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in which you live?

              I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of Ukraine and Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting between east and west.

              Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in Micheal's court, no ?

               


              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@ wrote:
              >
              > "From the spiritual world Michael is already actively present for
              > humanity. From the supersensible regions he prepares his later work. He
              > gives humanity impulses which retain the previous relation to the
              > divine-spiritual world, without this retention taking on a luciferic
              > character.
              >
              > For in the last third of the nineteenth century Michael pressed forward
              > in the physical world itself with the activity that he had prepared in
              > supersensible regions from the fifteenth up until the nineteenth
              > centuries.
              >
              > Humanity had to undergo for a while a spiritual development freeing it
              > from that relationship with the spiritual world which threatened to
              > become an impossible one. Thereupon this development was guided, through
              > the Michael mission, along paths which brought the progress of earthly
              > humanity back to a relationship with the spiritual world which is
              > beneficial to it.
              >
              > Thus in his activity Michael stands between the luciferic world-view and
              > the Ahrimanic world-intelligence. With Michael this world-view becomes a
              > wisdom filled world-revelation which reveals world-intelligence as
              > divine world-action. In this world-action lives Christ's wish for
              > humanity that thus Michael's world-revelation may be unveiled to the
              > human heart."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > "If we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize his
              > peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death,
              > carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of
              > time. That is the difference between the West and the East. When the
              > ether bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend
              > to maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls "Gloire" is
              > impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for
              > a long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether
              > body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at
              > himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is
              > exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been
              > infected by materialistic thinking.
              >
              > The speedy separation and the diffusion of the ether body is accompanied
              > by a feeling of sensual pleasure, which is also present as a most
              > peculiar ingredient of national sentiment. How is this expressed in the
              > East (Central Europeans do not understand this just as they do not
              > empathize with the East.) Consider Dostoevsky and even Tolstoy or those
              > leading writers who are constantly speaking of "Russian man"; their
              > jargon is an expression of an undefined sensual pleasure surging from
              > their national sentiment. Even in Solowjow's philosophy, we find a vague
              > and stifling quality that the Central European man cannot reconcile with
              > the clarity and purity he seeks. This search for clarity and purity is
              > related to what is active in Europe as spiritual power.
              >
              > Certain preparations are necessary. When some souls in the course of the
              > twentieth century become clairvoyant to life in the etheric world —
              > and that will happen — they would be disturbed by those ether bodies
              > that are residual from Western Europe. The spiritual eye would perceive
              > them first of all and would have a distorted vision of the Christ
              > figure. For this reason Michael has to fight a battle in Europe. He has
              > to contribute something to the diffusion of these rigid ether bodies
              > from Western Europe. To accomplish this task, he must take the ether
              > bodies from the East, which strive for diffusion, and join with them in
              > a struggle against the West. The result of this is that since 1879 a
              > violent struggle has been in preparation between Russian and Western
              > European ether bodies and is now raging in the entire astral world. This
              > furious battle between Russia and France is indeed going on in the
              > astral world and is led by Michael; it corresponds to the war that is
              > now being waged in Europe. We are often shaken by the knowledge that the
              > events in the physical world take place as exact opposites to those
              > occurring in the spiritual world, and that is precisely what is
              > happening in this case. The alliance between France and Russia can be
              > blamed on the seductive powers of Ahriman or, if you will, on the
              > ahrimanic element, the twenty billion francs that France gave to Russia.
              > This alliance is the physical expression of a struggle raging between
              > French and Russian souls, a struggle that has an impact on Central
              > Europe as it strives in its innermost soul for an encounter with the
              > Christ. It is the karma of Europe that we in Central Europe must
              > experience in an especially tragic way what the West and East must
              > settle between themselves. The only possible interpretation of the
              > external struggle between German and French elements is that the German
              > element lies in the middle and serves as an anvil for both East and
              > West. Germany, which is hammered by both sides in the conflict, is in
              > reality the subject of their own controversy. That is the spiritual
              > truth and quite different from what is happening in the physical world.
              > Consider how different the spiritual truth is from what is happening in
              > the physical world! This must strike contemporary man as grotesque, but
              > it nevertheless is the truth, which must have a shocking effect on us.
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html
              >

            • Stephen Hale
              ... at ... sanctity of ... Gurdjeiff s ... These may ... political ... have ... soul situation , ... body types - ... Ouspenski. ... Marc, ... a ... area ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 28, 2008
                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                at
                > whatever cost it involves.
                >
                > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                sanctity of
                > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                Gurdjeiff's
                > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                These may
                > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                political
                > environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                have
                > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                soul 'situation',
                > and/or personal biographic issues.
                >
                > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                body 'types'-
                > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                Ouspenski.
                > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                > 'etheric body' scenario?
                >
                > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                >
                > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                Marc,
                > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                a
                > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                area
                > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                >
                > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                it
                > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                influence'
                > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                > which you live?
                >
                > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                Ukraine and
                > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                between
                > east and west.
                >
                > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                Micheal's
                > court, no ?

                Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.


                "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                body, `conscience' arises.

                Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                it, `Budhi')."

                http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/EduChild/EduChi_essay.html;mark=543,
                24,29#WN_mark
              • Mikko Nuuttila
                Hi, this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
                  Hi,
                  this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                  Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                  Mikko


                  To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                  From: sardisian01@...
                  Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                  Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                  --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                  > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                  at
                  > whatever cost it involves.
                  >
                  > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                  > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                  sanctity of
                  > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                  > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                  > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                  Gurdjeiff's
                  > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                  These may
                  > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                  political
                  > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                  have
                  > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                  soul 'situation',
                  > and/or personal biographic issues.
                  >
                  > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                  body 'types'-
                  > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                  > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                  Ouspenski.
                  > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                  > 'etheric body' scenario?
                  >
                  > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                  >
                  > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                  Marc,
                  > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                  a
                  > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                  area
                  > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                  > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                  >
                  > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                  it
                  > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                  influence'
                  > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                  > which you live?
                  >
                  > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                  Ukraine and
                  > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                  between
                  > east and west.
                  >
                  > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                  Micheal's
                  > court, no ?

                  Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                  poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                  might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                  what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                  characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                  Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                  presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                  dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                  "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                  work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                  incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                  this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                  on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                  body, `conscience' arises.

                  Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                  something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                  entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                  itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                  as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                  kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                  alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                  by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                  then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                  (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                  wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                  of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                  Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                  belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                  is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                  transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                  if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                  himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                  able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                  during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                  Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                  transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                  means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                  during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                  transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                  When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                  training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                  the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                  Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                  transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                  memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                  transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                  terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                  it, `Budhi')."

                  http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                  24,29#WN_mark




                  Ilmainen päivitys Windows Live Messengerillesi! Klikkaa!
                • Mikko Nuuttila
                  The link to the description of the night butterfly moves: http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com From:
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
                    The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                    http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html


                    To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                    From: bellmeine@...
                    Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                    Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                    Hi,
                    this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                    Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                    Mikko



                    To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                    Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                    --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                    > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                    at
                    > whatever cost it involves.
                    >
                    > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                    > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                    sanctity of
                    > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                    > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                    > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                    Gurdjeiff's
                    > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                    These may
                    > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                    political
                    > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                    have
                    > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                    soul 'situation',
                    > and/or personal biographic issues.
                    >
                    > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                    body 'types'-
                    > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                    > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                    Ouspenski.
                    > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                    > 'etheric body' scenario?
                    >
                    > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                    >
                    > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                    Marc,
                    > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                    a
                    > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                    area
                    > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                    > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                    >
                    > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                    it
                    > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                    influence'
                    > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                    > which you live?
                    >
                    > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                    Ukraine and
                    > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                    between
                    > east and west.
                    >
                    > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                    Micheal's
                    > court, no ?

                    Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                    poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                    might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                    what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                    characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                    Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                    presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                    dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                    "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                    work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                    incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                    this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                    on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                    body, `conscience' arises.

                    Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                    something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                    entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                    itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                    as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                    kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                    alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                    by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                    then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                    (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                    wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                    of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                    Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                    belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                    is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                    transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                    if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                    himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                    able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                    during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                    Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                    transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                    means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                    during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                    transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                    When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                    training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                    the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                    Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                    transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                    memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                    transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                    terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                    it, `Budhi')."

                    http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                    24,29#WN_mark




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                  • Mikko Nuuttila
                    The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 30, 2008
                      The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words, Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him. Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later left the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations between Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about the last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for instance that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic stream, it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like that.
                      Mikko


                      To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                      From: bellmeine@...
                      Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:47:48 +0300
                      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                      http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html



                      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                      From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                      Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      Hi,
                      this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                      Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                      Mikko



                      To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                      From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                      Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                      --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                      > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                      at
                      > whatever cost it involves.
                      >
                      > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                      > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                      sanctity of
                      > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                      > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                      > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                      Gurdjeiff's
                      > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                      These may
                      > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                      political
                      > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                      have
                      > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                      soul 'situation',
                      > and/or personal biographic issues.
                      >
                      > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                      body 'types'-
                      > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                      > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                      Ouspenski.
                      > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                      > 'etheric body' scenario?
                      >
                      > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                      >
                      > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                      Marc,
                      > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                      a
                      > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                      area
                      > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                      > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                      >
                      > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                      it
                      > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                      influence'
                      > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                      > which you live?
                      >
                      > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                      Ukraine and
                      > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                      between
                      > east and west.
                      >
                      > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                      Micheal's
                      > court, no ?

                      Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                      poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                      might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                      what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                      characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                      Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                      presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                      dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                      "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                      work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                      incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                      this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                      on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                      body, `conscience' arises.

                      Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                      something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                      entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                      itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                      as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                      kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                      alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                      by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                      then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                      (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                      wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                      of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                      Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                      belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                      is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                      transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                      if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                      himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                      able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                      during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                      Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                      transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                      means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                      during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                      transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                      When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                      training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                      the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                      Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                      transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                      memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                      transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                      terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                      it, `Budhi')."

                      http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                      24,29#WN_mark




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                    • NINA
                      Dear Mikko, Am glad you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms.org you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc re-
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                        Dear Mikko,
                        Am glad  you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms.org 
                        you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc
                        re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years. All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies." Your observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                         
                        Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more details.
                        Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal Pattern of Consciousness:A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                         
                        I mention Islam because am concerned about the militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement", based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of their sergents for firing on  supposedly unarmed Muslim women and children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination,etc. .(video of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an educational movie.)
                        Two of my  close friends - Muslim married to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one day!
                         
                        Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an opinion.
                        I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care - Nina
                         
                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47 AM
                        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                        The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                        http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html


                        To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                        From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                        Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                        Hi,
                        this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                        Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                        Mikko



                        To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                        From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                        Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                        --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                        > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                        at
                        > whatever cost it involves.
                        >
                        > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                        > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                        sanctity of
                        > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                        > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                        > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                        Gurdjeiff's
                        > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                        These may
                        > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                        political
                        > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                        have
                        > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                        soul 'situation',
                        > and/or personal biographic issues.
                        >
                        > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                        body 'types'-
                        > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                        > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                        Ouspenski.
                        > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                        > 'etheric body' scenario?
                        >
                        > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                        >
                        > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                        Marc,
                        > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                        a
                        > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                        area
                        > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                        > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                        >
                        > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                        it
                        > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                        influence'
                        > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                        > which you live?
                        >
                        > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                        Ukraine and
                        > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                        between
                        > east and west.
                        >
                        > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                        Micheal's
                        > court, no ?

                        Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                        poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                        might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                        what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                        characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                        Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                        presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                        dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                        "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                        work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                        incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                        this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                        on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                        body, `conscience' arises.

                        Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                        something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                        entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                        itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                        as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                        kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                        alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                        by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                        then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                        (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                        wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                        of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                        Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                        belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                        is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                        transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                        if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                        himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                        able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                        during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                        Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                        transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                        means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                        during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                        transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                        When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                        training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                        the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                        Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                        transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                        memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                        transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                        terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                        it, `Budhi')."

                        http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                        24,29#WN_mark




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                      • Nina
                        Dear Mikko, I was mistaken that your message was a private email to me - did not see it was to the group...Too many RE-s are responsible! - N
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                          Dear Mikko,
                          I was mistaken that your message was a private email to me - did not
                          see it was to the group...Too many RE-s are responsible! - N
                        • Mikko Nuuttila
                          Nina, Thanks for the link. I m in Kangasala, Finland. I ve read Maurice Cotterell s work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                            Nina,
                            Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.

                            Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.

                            Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.

                            Mikko


                            To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                            From: emeraldnina@...
                            Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
                            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ


                            Dear Mikko,
                            Am glad  you wrote me. Thought of letting you know that on www.noblerealms. org 
                            you can search for info about the assemblage point,etc
                            re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years. All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. " Your observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                             
                            Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more details.
                            Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal Pattern of Consciousness: A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                             
                            I mention Islam because am concerned about the militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement", based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of their sergents for firing on  supposedly unarmed Muslim women and children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination, etc. .(video of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an educational movie.)
                            Two of my  close friends - Muslim married to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one day!
                             
                            Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an opinion.
                            I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care - Nina
                             
                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47 AM
                            Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                            The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                            http://home. scarlet.be/ wim.degent/ Notes/notes. html



                            To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                            From: bellmeine@hotmail. com
                            Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                            Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                            Hi,
                            this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes relevant.

                            Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity. According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms in dreams instead.

                            Mikko



                            To: anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com
                            From: sardisian01@ yahoo.com
                            Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24 +0000
                            Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ

                            --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                            > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                            at
                            > whatever cost it involves.
                            >
                            > First of all, Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                            > years. Ouspenski was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                            sanctity of
                            > his world view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                            > childhood, aside that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                            > influences may have played into his adult choice to follow
                            Gurdjeiff's
                            > path as opposed to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                            These may
                            > have had something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                            political
                            > environment/ influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                            have
                            > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                            soul 'situation',
                            > and/or personal biographic issues.
                            >
                            > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                            body 'types'-
                            > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please, don't
                            > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                            Ouspenski.
                            > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to study this
                            > 'etheric body' scenario?
                            >
                            > How about Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                            >
                            > Just thought I'd let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                            Marc,
                            > is both Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                            a
                            > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                            area
                            > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good extent, the
                            > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                            >
                            > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                            it
                            > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                            influence'
                            > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social environment in
                            > which you live?
                            >
                            > I imagine that you know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                            Ukraine and
                            > Poland with an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                            between
                            > east and west.
                            >
                            > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some measure, in
                            Micheal's
                            > court, no ?

                            Well, let us try another example. The intellectual soul is a very
                            poor comprehender of deeper concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                            might help in understanding what is easy, in terms of learning, and
                            what is difficult in the unlearning of bad habits and rigid
                            characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The Fourth
                            Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                            presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                            dragon is waged in conscience with Michael.

                            "What we call `conscience' is nothing else than the outcome of the
                            work of the Ego on the life-body through incarnation after
                            incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he ought not to do
                            this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an impression
                            on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                            body, `conscience' arises.

                            Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members may either be
                            something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it may be
                            entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working on
                            itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                            as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                            kind of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                            alone and of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                            by its very own power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                            then makes of the Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                            (or by an Eastern expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                            wrought mainly through a process of learning, through an enriching
                            of one's inner life with higher ideas and perceptions.

                            Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task, and it is one that
                            belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens when not only
                            is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                            transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                            if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                            himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                            able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                            during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                            Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                            transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                            means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                            during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                            transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.

                            When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                            training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                            the very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                            Individually and with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                            transformation of his habits and his temperament, his character, his
                            memory ... In so far as he thus works into his life-body, he
                            transforms it into what is called in anthroposophical
                            terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression has
                            it, `Budhi')."

                            http://wn.rsarchive .org/Articles/ EduChild/ EduChi_essay. html;mark= 543,
                            24,29#WN_mark




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                          • Stephen Hale
                            ... hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words, Christ became just a
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 1, 2008
                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God, why
                              hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
                              been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
                              Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
                              Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
                              heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later left
                              the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations between
                              Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
                              records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
                              he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about the
                              last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for instance
                              that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
                              was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
                              spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic stream,
                              it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
                              anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
                              that.
                              > Mikko


                              Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams up
                              to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
                              physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.

                              We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself. The
                              message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
                              mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.

                              Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the ancient
                              mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this himself
                              as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?

                              According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to the
                              ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
                              German.

                              Steve
                            • carol
                              Hi Mikko, Of course, all was not all bad on the American continents. Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls- and- there were likely
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008

                                Hi Mikko,  Of course, all was not 'all bad' on the American continents.  Nature presented it`s rich secrets to some incarnate souls-  and-  there were likely supersensible 'checks' in place to obstruct the forms of 'evil' which were being cultivated in those geographic and those other time settings-  so that they did not achieve their ultimate purpose.

                                ...One must not create illusions on this front-  the Heavens do work their forces into all matters of the world.   Very likely,  some central and south American incarnate souls would have represented the interests of the Higher Realms,  while a larger number would have allowed their soul forces to conform to the decadent trend of other spirit forms, by this time,  acting as empowerment for the lower realms.

                                One must avoid adhering to thinking which views life in 'absolute' terms.  In this,  there are dangers. FREEDOM comes more from within  the conscious, personal `soìl` which  the soul discreetly cultivates for itself over what 'sense' it can abstractly attach to a given significant situation.  In my view,  flexibility and mobility of soul is of outmost importance, in the first instance,  verbalizing it so that it be understood by the  'modern ear' comes second.  As well, ' best of luck' in verbalizing all aspects of a given situation...

                                Having stated the points above,  one must understand that flexibility and mobility of soul can be interpreted in differing ways,  depending on the individual's  soul`s level of TRUE spiritual development.

                                 carol.

                                 


                                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Nina,
                                > Thanks for the link. I'm in Kangasala, Finland. I've read Maurice Cotterell's work and had this huge experience after it where I shifted the position of my assemblage point in the forest to see another world, it just happened spontaneously or I was helped from another realm and I walked into this South American world right there in the forest and there were buildings and people there. So when I talk of the Mexican mysteries, I truly mean they have something important to say about spirituality, and it can be very practical, too. It is the best of my experiences so far, and it was directly linked to reading Cotterell's book about South America. I am very out of place in Finland, and I even look South American. Then I just walked out of that world, the South American place, and when I went to recheck the site, there were just two deer there and they were coloured funnily. Then they too ran to the forest.
                                >
                                > Cotterell insists Pacal Votan's grave's details share electromagnetic secrets with us, but he is never too explicit exactly how it is they should be electromagnetic in nature.
                                >
                                > Basically you can stay in such other worlds, and that is what the ancient Mexicans taught themselves to do, and this makes it really interesting.
                                >
                                > Mikko
                                >
                                > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: emeraldnina@...
                                > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:23:04 -0400
                                > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Mikko,
                                > Am glad you wrote me. Thought of letting you
                                > know that on www.noblerealms.org
                                > you can search for info about the assemblage
                                > point,etc
                                > re- Casteneda. I've not looked at his wk in years.
                                > All you share is very interesting. Thanks for the link and the Quran quote
                                > "Christ will come when people lie on the ground like night butterflies." Your
                                > observations re- Steiner are duly noted - thanks.
                                >
                                > Yes, the Mexican Mysteries do alert us to more
                                > details.
                                > Biologist Louis Wilson's huge tome, "A Universal
                                > Pattern of Consciousness:A Study of Dimensionality comparing the Edgar Cayce
                                > psychic readings with various sources of the world's esoteric and mystical
                                > knowledge" shared some of the more favorable Mayan ideas fr The Book of the
                                > Jaguar Priests about the Bacabs.
                                >
                                > I mention Islam because am concerned about the
                                > militant nature of their belief system. Saw the movie "Rules of Engagement",
                                > based on a true story, where American military court goes after one of
                                > their sergents for firing on supposedly unarmed Muslim women and
                                > children in a courtyard.. Tommy Lee Jones is the lawyer who investigates to get
                                > at the truth and uncovers all this "anti-American" indoctrination,etc. .(video
                                > of the event "mysteriously disappears". It was an
                                > educational movie.)
                                > Two of my close friends - Muslim married
                                > to a Baptist...and find at a loss to converse with them both, however much
                                > Steiner may offer, they appear set in their systems...but am always hopeful one
                                > day!
                                >
                                > Have you seen any of Maurice Cotterell's wk? Think
                                > South American themes in one in particular. He did translation of one of
                                > Steiner's bks but not seen enough of his writing to offer an
                                > opinion.
                                > I'm in Florida, where are you? Take care -
                                > Nina
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From:
                                > Mikko
                                > Nuuttila
                                > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:47
                                > AM
                                > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
                                > Physical Christ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The link to the description of the night butterfly moves:
                                > http://home.scarlet.be/wim.degent/Notes/notes.html
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                > From:
                                > bellmeine@...
                                > Date:
                                > Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:41:24 +0300
                                > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy] Re: The
                                > Physical Christ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                > this has no bearing on the otherwise interesting
                                > discussion, but I perceive you sometimes mention Islam in this group, and the
                                > following point has to be made: The Quran says that Christ will come when
                                > people lie on the ground like night butterflies. Indeed, people lie on the
                                > ground in Carlos Castaneda's Tensegrity (Magical Passes) seminars practicing
                                > night butterfly movements. The night butterfly or moth is traditionally the
                                > image of the night side of psyche, and in Tensegrity it is the guardian of the
                                > second attention or the otherworld. Since people are taught in Tensegrity they
                                > can achieve a state which happens to resemble Christ's departure to heaven
                                > (the original text says to the Sky), the point becomes
                                > relevant.
                                >
                                > Steiner was opposed to the crystallizing influence of Ahriman
                                > in dreams, but I think this is exactly what they try to achieve in Tensegrity.
                                > According to Steiner, we ought to be able to experience etheric flowing forms
                                > in dreams instead.
                                >
                                > Mikko
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                                > From:
                                > sardisian01@...
                                > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:10:24
                                > +0000
                                > Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: The Physical Christ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
                                > "carol" organicethics@
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Steve, your fixation on this 'problématique' appears to me to be,
                                > >
                                > alas, another one of your famous <make the pieces fit the puzzle>,
                                >
                                > at
                                > > whatever cost it involves.
                                > >
                                > > First of all,
                                > Gurdjeiff wasn't Russian, but lived there only a few
                                > > years. Ouspenski
                                > was Russian- but that doesn't certify the
                                > sanctity of
                                > > his world
                                > view. You don't know what were the conditions of his
                                > > childhood, aside
                                > that he was gifted. You don't know what multiple
                                > > influences may have
                                > played into his adult choice to follow
                                > Gurdjeiff's
                                > > path as opposed
                                > to 'happening' upon Anthropsophy, for example.
                                > These may
                                > > have had
                                > something to do with the physical, social, religious,
                                > political
                                > >
                                > environment/influences of his formative years, as well, they may
                                >
                                > have
                                > > had something to do with the 7 generation family group
                                >
                                > soul 'situation',
                                > > and/or personal biographic issues.
                                > >
                                >
                                > > As for the two major moving blocks- east and west etheric
                                > body
                                > 'types'-
                                > > this is a situation to view 'from a bird's eye view'. Please,
                                > don't
                                > > think you've 'struck gold' on this issue with Gurdjeiff and
                                >
                                > Ouspenski.
                                > > You couldn't have found more 'suitable' canditates to
                                > study this
                                > > 'etheric body' scenario?
                                > >
                                > > How about
                                > Tomberg, or Bailey? Marie Steiner? (a joke)
                                > >
                                > > Just thought I'd
                                > let you know that this list's contributer- Jean-
                                > Marc,
                                > > is both
                                > Asian and French. He most definitely has at least a bit of
                                > a
                                > >
                                > 'lightened' etheric body in spite of the fact that he lives in an
                                >
                                > area
                                > > where the ' generalized' body types reflect, to a good
                                > extent, the
                                > > formative forces inherent in the French language.
                                > >
                                >
                                > > How's your etheric body type, Steve? From what 'ethnic' stock does
                                >
                                > it
                                > > derive it's caracteristics- outside of the ongoing 'formative
                                >
                                > influence'
                                > > it receives from the forceful Ahrimanic Anglo social
                                > environment in
                                > > which you live?
                                > >
                                > > I imagine that you
                                > know that MINE is predominantly Slavic of
                                > Ukraine and
                                > > Poland with
                                > an Italien 'accent'. Oh, there's another meeting
                                > between
                                > > east and
                                > west.
                                > >
                                > > Gee, both Jean-Marc and I MUST be playing to some
                                > measure, in
                                > Micheal's
                                > > court, no ?
                                >
                                > Well, let us try another
                                > example. The intellectual soul is a very
                                > poor comprehender of deeper
                                > concepts, but the analogy of the clock
                                > might help in understanding what is
                                > easy, in terms of learning, and
                                > what is difficult in the unlearning of bad
                                > habits and rigid
                                > characteristics. This undoing is also very important. The
                                > Fourth
                                > Way is all about this latter work because it constitutes ahriman's
                                >
                                > presence in the etheric body. That is where the battle with the
                                > dragon
                                > is waged in conscience with Michael.
                                >
                                > "What we call `conscience' is
                                > nothing else than the outcome of the
                                > work of the Ego on the life-body
                                > through incarnation after
                                > incarnation. When man begins to perceive that he
                                > ought not to do
                                > this or that, and when this perception makes so strong an
                                > impression
                                > on him that the impression passes on into his etheric
                                > body,
                                > `conscience' arises.
                                >
                                > Now this work of the Ego upon the lower members
                                > may either be
                                > something that is proper to a whole race of men; or else it
                                > may be
                                > entirely individual, an achievement of the individual Ego working
                                > on
                                > itself alone. In the former case, the whole human race collaborates,
                                >
                                > as it were, in the transformation of the human being. The latter
                                > kind
                                > of transformation depends on the activity of the individual Ego
                                > alone and
                                > of itself. The Ego may become so strong as to transform,
                                > by its very own
                                > power and strength, the sentient body. What the Ego
                                > then makes of the
                                > Sentient or Astral Body is called `Spirit-Self'
                                > (or by an Eastern
                                > expression, `Manas'). This transformation is
                                > wrought mainly through a
                                > process of learning, through an enriching
                                > of one's inner life with higher
                                > ideas and perceptions.
                                >
                                > Now the Ego can rise to a still higher task,
                                > and it is one that
                                > belongs quite essentially to its nature. This happens
                                > when not only
                                > is the astral body enriched, but the etheric or life-body
                                >
                                > transformed. A man learns many things in the course of his life; and
                                >
                                > if from some point he looks back on his past life, he may say to
                                >
                                > himself: `I have learned much.' But in a far less degree will he be
                                >
                                > able to speak of a transformation in his temperament or character
                                >
                                > during life, or of an improvement or deterioration in his memory.
                                >
                                > Learning concerns the astral body, whereas the latter kinds of
                                >
                                > transformation concern the etheric or life-body. Hence it is by no
                                >
                                > means an unhappy image if we compare the change in the astral body
                                >
                                > during life with the course of the minute hand of a clock, and the
                                >
                                > transformation of the life-body with the course of the hour hand.
                                >
                                >
                                > When man enters on a higher training — or, as it is called, occult
                                >
                                > training — it is above all important for him to undertake, out of
                                > the
                                > very own power of his Ego, this latter transformation.
                                > Individually and
                                > with full consciousness, he has to work out the
                                > transformation of his
                                > habits and his temperament, his character, his
                                > memory ... In so far as he
                                > thus works into his life-body, he
                                > transforms it into what is called in
                                > anthroposophical
                                > terminology, `Life-Spirit' (or, as the Eastern expression
                                > has
                                > it, `Budhi')."
                                >
                                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Articles/EduChild/EduChi_essay.html;mark=543,
                                > 24,29#WN_mark
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Robert Mason
                                ... for instance that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus was crucified on Golgotha.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                                  To Mikko, who wrote:

                                  >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                  for instance that they crucified a person
                                  upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                  crucified on Golgotha.<<

                                  Robert writes:

                                  That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                  as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                  thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                  story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                  black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                  of Evolution*:
                                  <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>

                                  Mikko wrote:

                                  >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                  about South America, I've never seen any text
                                  like that.<<

                                  Robert writes:

                                  He did indeed say something about South
                                  America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                  vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                  something to the effect that the religious
                                  soul-configuration of the people in South
                                  America is similar to that of the people in
                                  Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                  why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                  into these facts and the possible course of
                                  future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                  establish themselves in a strong position in
                                  South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                  polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                  Steiner's exact words or the reference.

                                  In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                  excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                  Bondarev says:

                                  ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                  black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                  state, putting man into the condition of
                                  group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                  he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                  experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                  [p. 45]

                                  Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                  "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                  rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                  the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                  development come to fruition and are passed on
                                  to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                  the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                  The true German culture comes to expression in
                                  Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                  Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                  too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                  in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                  the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                  toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                  way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                  succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                  in South America, but would be maimed and
                                  distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                  in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                  -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                  for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                  might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                  Europe...*

                                  From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                  i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                  <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>

                                  "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                  essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                  politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                  given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                  those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                  undermined by the development of the actual
                                  state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                  patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                  fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                  retire into the background and make way for
                                  others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                  happen today. For this would mean that the
                                  secret societies of the West would have
                                  succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                  before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                  forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                  would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                  cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                  with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                  eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                  a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                  to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                  cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                  be transposed to South America and take effect
                                  only in a modified form. It would then come
                                  into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                  earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                  the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                  to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                  efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                  As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                  their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                  teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                  prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                  forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                  magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                  with renewed force."

                                  Hope this helps,

                                  Robert M
                                • Stephen Hale
                                  ... Robert, Don t know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did. 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the german aryans
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                                    <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > To Mikko, who wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                    > for instance that they crucified a person
                                    > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                    > crucified on Golgotha.<<
                                    >
                                    > Robert writes:
                                    >
                                    > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                    > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                    > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                    > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                    > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                    > of Evolution*:
                                    > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
                                    >
                                    > Mikko wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                    > about South America, I've never seen any text
                                    > like that.<<
                                    >
                                    > Robert writes:
                                    >
                                    > He did indeed say something about South
                                    > America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                    > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                    > something to the effect that the religious
                                    > soul-configuration of the people in South
                                    > America is similar to that of the people in
                                    > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                    > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                    > into these facts and the possible course of
                                    > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                    > establish themselves in a strong position in
                                    > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                    > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                    > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
                                    >
                                    > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                    > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                    > Bondarev says:
                                    >
                                    > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                    > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                    > state, putting man into the condition of
                                    > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                    > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                    > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                    > [p. 45]
                                    >
                                    > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                    > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                    > rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                    > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                    > development come to fruition and are passed on
                                    > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                    > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                    > The true German culture comes to expression in
                                    > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                    > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                    > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                    > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                    > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                    > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                    > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                    > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                    > in South America, but would be maimed and
                                    > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                    > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                    > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                    > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                    > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                    > Europe...*
                                    >
                                    > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                    > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                    > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
                                    >
                                    > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                    > essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                    > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                    > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                    > those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                    > undermined by the development of the actual
                                    > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                    > patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                    > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                    > retire into the background and make way for
                                    > others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                    > happen today. For this would mean that the
                                    > secret societies of the West would have
                                    > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                    > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                    > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                    > would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                    > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                    > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                    > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                    > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                    > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                    > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                    > be transposed to South America and take effect
                                    > only in a modified form. It would then come
                                    > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                    > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                    > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                    > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                    > efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                    > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                    > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                    > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                    > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                    > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                    > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                    > with renewed force."
                                    >
                                    > Hope this helps,
                                    >
                                    > Robert M

                                    Robert,

                                    Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                    1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                    german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                    Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for this
                                    settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                    failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                    committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                    the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.

                                    And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                    again if anybody is interested.

                                    Steve
                                  • Stephen Hale
                                    Also, isn t it interesting that the author s foreward to the book allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very early in this treatise
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 2, 2008
                                      Also, isn't it interesting that the author's foreward to the book
                                      allegedly written by Irina Gordienko states quite emphatically very
                                      early in this treatise that Prokofieff was a complete product of the
                                      west? This assertion apparently comes from the Wimbauer book of
                                      1995, but it, in fact, forms the entire formative structure of the
                                      book.

                                      Thus, Prokofieff, and the entire GAS which supposedly supports the
                                      anthroposophical movement today, is a product of western formulation,
                                      regardless of the spiritual configuration of eastern europe.

                                      I believe that *that* is the most important point. Selling out
                                      anthroposophy to South America in a premature effort to instream the
                                      sixth cultural epoch into the fifth. And, of course, Amnerica is
                                      behind it with its greedy plan of democratic territorial expansion
                                      under the auspices of the Monroe Doctrine.

                                      Also, a very unhealthy dose of extreme magnetism doesn't help the
                                      cause. We all have *that* fact to fight as the ahrimanic influence
                                      centered in the west that some want to extend throughout the entire
                                      world. No wonder Europe is pissed. It comes from the divisive
                                      layer, or eighth subearthly level where the asuras hold sway, and the
                                      occultists succeed in bringing to the surface. And these occultists
                                      represent the western brotherhood, which gets to be our destiny to
                                      explain and fight.

                                      Steve



                                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                      <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
                                      > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > To Mikko, who wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >>Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico,
                                      > > for instance that they crucified a person
                                      > > upside down at the same time as Jesus was
                                      > > crucified on Golgotha.<<
                                      > >
                                      > > Robert writes:
                                      > >
                                      > > That particular crucifixion (not upside down,
                                      > > as far as I recall) wasn't really the "bad
                                      > > thing"; rather, it was the "good thing" in that
                                      > > story: the defeat of the greatest (i.e. worst)
                                      > > black magician. See the cycle *Inner Impulses
                                      > > of Evolution*:
                                      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/InnerImpul/InnImp_index.html>
                                      > >
                                      > > Mikko wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >>I also wonder if Steiner had anything to say
                                      > > about South America, I've never seen any text
                                      > > like that.<<
                                      > >
                                      > > Robert writes:
                                      > >
                                      > > He did indeed say something about South
                                      > > America, but I don't have the citation. I
                                      > > vaguely recall that Steiner may have said
                                      > > something to the effect that the religious
                                      > > soul-configuration of the people in South
                                      > > America is similar to that of the people in
                                      > > Eastern Europe, and that this was one reason
                                      > > why the Jesuits, who had some occult insight
                                      > > into these facts and the possible course of
                                      > > future evolution in the Sixth Epoch, sought to
                                      > > establish themselves in a strong position in
                                      > > South America -- e.g. in their soul-numbing
                                      > > polity in Paraguay. But again, I don't have
                                      > > Steiner's exact words or the reference.
                                      > >
                                      > > In *The Crisis Of Civilization* the
                                      > > excommunicated Russian Anthroposophist Gennady
                                      > > Bondarev says:
                                      > >
                                      > > ". . . it {the Jesuit polity in Paraguay} was
                                      > > black magic practised on the scale of an entire
                                      > > state, putting man into the condition of
                                      > > group-soul of that far distant epoch in which
                                      > > he was not yet man, but man-animal. The same
                                      > > experiment, we may add, is done in Russia."
                                      > > [p. 45]
                                      > >
                                      > > Bondarev considers the 6th Epoch to be more a
                                      > > "German-Slavic" epoch, since (he argues)
                                      > > rightful social evolution can happen only if
                                      > > the Mid-European cultural tasks of social *I*-
                                      > > development come to fruition and are passed on
                                      > > to the East. Steiner says that the Germans are
                                      > > the avant-garde of the sixth sub-race (GA264).
                                      > > The true German culture comes to expression in
                                      > > Idealism, Goetheanism, Anthroposophy, and
                                      > > Social Threefolding. It has been the aim, all
                                      > > too successful, of evil occult-political forces
                                      > > in the 20th Century to crush the Germans and
                                      > > the East Slavs, to prevent the right evolution
                                      > > toward the 6th Epoch, which should be led (in a
                                      > > way) by the East Slavs. If these evil designs
                                      > > succeed, the 6th Epoch would then be centered
                                      > > in South America, but would be maimed and
                                      > > distorted, and the Spirit Self will not descend
                                      > > in the way intended for progressive evolution.
                                      > > -- Bondarev does not give a citation of Steiner
                                      > > for this last point, but I think Prokofieff
                                      > > might, in his *Spiritual Origins of Eastern
                                      > > Europe...*
                                      > >
                                      > > From "The Spiritual Configuration of Europe",
                                      > > i.e. Chapter 16 of *Crisis*:
                                      > > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/SpiritualEurope.htm>
                                      > >
                                      > > "These are in a very condensed form some of the
                                      > > essential elements of the methodology of modern
                                      > > politology. Anyone who does not master them is
                                      > > given over to empty quarrels and enmities. But
                                      > > those whose sense of national self-worth is
                                      > > undermined by the development of the actual
                                      > > state of affairs can merely be told: Have
                                      > > patience, the time will come when Germany will
                                      > > fulfil its cultural-historical task, and then
                                      > > retire into the background and make way for
                                      > > others. But God grant that the latter does not
                                      > > happen today. For this would mean that the
                                      > > secret societies of the West would have
                                      > > succeeding in diverting the cultural impulse
                                      > > before its meeting with the Spirit Self, in
                                      > > forcing it further westwards. In this case one
                                      > > would have succeeded in making the fifth
                                      > > cultural epoch, in which the Anglo-Saxon race -
                                      > > with full justification - plays a leading rôle,
                                      > > eternal in a certain sense, in endowing it with
                                      > > a peculiar ahrimanic immortality. If this were
                                      > > to happen - says Rudolf Steiner - the sixth
                                      > > cultural epoch would indeed begin, but it would
                                      > > be transposed to South America and take effect
                                      > > only in a modified form. It would then come
                                      > > into contradiction with the spiritual laws of
                                      > > earth and cosmos. Only the human beings with
                                      > > the greatest strength of spirit would be able
                                      > > to attain the Spirit Self individually, through
                                      > > efforts having the character of an initiation.
                                      > > As to the rest of the inhabitants of the earth,
                                      > > their fate would veritably be a 'gnashing of
                                      > > teeth'. The emergence of the evil race, as
                                      > > prophesied in the Apocalypse, would move
                                      > > forward at an accelerated pace. The black-
                                      > > magical Mysteries of Taotl would come to life
                                      > > with renewed force."
                                      > >
                                      > > Hope this helps,
                                      > >
                                      > > Robert M
                                      >
                                      > Robert,
                                      >
                                      > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                      > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                      > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                      > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                      this
                                      > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                      > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                      > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                      > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                      >
                                      > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                      > again if anybody is interested.
                                      >
                                      > Steve
                                      >
                                    • Robert Mason
                                      ... this ... Sorry, Steve, but I don t understand much of this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
                                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                        <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                        > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                        > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                        > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                        > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                        this
                                        > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of a
                                        > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                        > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived through
                                        > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                        >
                                        > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will say
                                        > again if anybody is interested.

                                        Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                                        this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                        <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                                        <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                                        -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                                        nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                                        or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                                        connection between Proky and the premature
                                        6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                                        the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                                        Russia to South America. But I don't have
                                        the book and so don't have his exact words.

                                        Robert M
                                      • Stephen Hale
                                        ... a ... through ... say ... I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
                                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason"
                                          <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                          > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                                          > > Don't know if Bondy recognized G & O, but Michael certainly did.
                                          > > 1915 in order to thwart the South American influence, which the
                                          > > german aryans wanted to place even as far back as 1889 with the
                                          > > Forester's, Bernhard and Elizabeth. Paraguay was the place for
                                          > this
                                          > > settlement, and it truly represented the precursor to an ideal of
                                          a
                                          > > failed sixth cultural epoch in the fifth. Bernhard Forester
                                          > > committed suicide when his plan failed, and Nietzsche lived
                                          through
                                          > > the supports provided by Schopenauer and Wagner.
                                          > >
                                          > > And that is how Adolf Hitler was born!. Said before, and will
                                          say
                                          > > again if anybody is interested.
                                          >
                                          > Sorry, Steve, but I don't understand much of
                                          > this. I know a little about Bernhard Förster:
                                          > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Förster>
                                          > <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania>
                                          > -- but I don't know what you mean by *G&O*,
                                          > nor what that has to do with Michael, 1915,
                                          > or the birth of Hitler. I suppose I get the
                                          > connection between Proky and the premature
                                          > 6th Epoch, but I doubt that he was *advocating*
                                          > the transfer of the center of the 6th from
                                          > Russia to South America. But I don't have
                                          > the book and so don't have his exact words.
                                          >
                                          > Robert M

                                          I think we both agree that Bondarev envisioned that a premature entry
                                          of the sixth cultural epoch would be centered in South America, and
                                          this is quite evident with the aims of the National Socialists of
                                          Germany. By referring to Nietzsche's sister and her very chauvinist
                                          husband, we can get a very early grasp of a failed plan as far back
                                          as 1889.

                                          Prokofieff is the advocate of a premature instreaming of the sixth
                                          cultural epoch into the fifth through the 'idea' of the Being
                                          Anthroposophia. We have both engaged in heavy battle concerning the
                                          advocacy of this, coming from a certain quarter of the
                                          anthroposophical movement which seems to be centered here in America.

                                          My research indicates that Prokofieff was, indeed, a product of the
                                          western formulation of anthroposophy, and that he and Irina Gordienko
                                          actually had an intimate relationship prior to the writing of her
                                          book.

                                          As for G & O, that is the *real* Russian response to Michael's call
                                          to the Russian Folk Soul back in 1915, when the young etheric bodies
                                          stood before the vault.

                                          Steve
                                        • Stephen Hale
                                          ... why ... left ... between ... the ... instance ... stream, ... up ... The ... ancient ... himself ... the ... It is the body going into the ground that
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 3, 2008
                                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                            <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mikko Nuuttila <bellmeine@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > The Christ yelled on the cross, Eli, eli lama sabachthani, God,
                                            why
                                            > hast thou forsaken me? In Mayan, these same words mean that he has
                                            > been immersed in light. Steiner says that on saying these words,
                                            > Christ became just a physical body and his etheric body left him.
                                            > Studying these same words in Mayan, we realize that these words
                                            > heralded Christ's becoming a light body physically when he later
                                            left
                                            > the Earth in a cloud. I wonder if there are more correlations
                                            between
                                            > Aramaic and Mayan or Hebrew and Mayan. The Mayan elder Hunbatz Men
                                            > records for instance that ATAN (Adam) is woman in Mayan and I think
                                            > he also said that EVA means human but I'm not totally sure about
                                            the
                                            > last point. Steiner had bad things to say about Mexico, for
                                            instance
                                            > that they crucified a person upside down at the same time as Jesus
                                            > was crucified on Golgotha. Perhaps so, but Mayan and Toltec
                                            > spirituality has yet to be integrated into the anthroposophic
                                            stream,
                                            > it is not just bad things alone. I also wonder if Steiner had
                                            > anything to say about South America, I've never seen any text like
                                            > that.
                                            > > Mikko
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Consider that we are ourselves the 'source of light' that streams
                                            up
                                            > to meet, half-way, the great Sun Logos which reflects down as the
                                            > physical globe of gas known to the astrophysicists and astronomers.
                                            >
                                            > We are not only NOT forsaken, we stream the message down itself.
                                            The
                                            > message is: My Kingdom Is Not of This Earth. Thus, the ancient
                                            > mysteries have been resolved in the Mystery of Golgotha.
                                            >
                                            > Did Maurice Cotterell understand this in his aim to exalt the
                                            ancient
                                            > mysteries? Do YOU undertstand this? Did he understand this
                                            himself
                                            > as a translator of the works of Rudolf Steiner?
                                            >
                                            > According to Steiner, many wanted to remain closely connected to
                                            the
                                            > ancient mysteries even while they translated his writings from the
                                            > German.


                                            It is the body going into the ground that makes for *Us* being the
                                            source of light that streams up to the Sun Logos. Jesus never gets
                                            credit for that. It's all about Christ ascending into the sky and
                                            disappearing into the clouds.

                                            I once talked to some friends about the historical resurrection of
                                            Jesus, and how the body had gone into the ground after an eclipse and
                                            an earthquake, and they branded me a heretic. I thought that *that*
                                            was common knowledge. Nope.

                                            Apparently, fundamentalists truly believe that when Thomas had to
                                            have proof that Jesus had resurrected that He said: "Place your
                                            fingers in these wounds and see". And Thomas exclaimed: "My Lord, My
                                            God!"

                                            And this meant a physical resurrection. This is what the
                                            fundamentalists of all the denominations believe, to this day.

                                            Steve
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