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Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

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  • jeff auen
    John, You are probably going to receive a great deal of response to this and its knotty area of research. I too have been interested this field for years but
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 15, 2001
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      John,
       
      You are probably going to receive a great deal of response to this and its knotty area of research. I too have been interested this field for years but stand more frustrated than ever. Here is the rub: on one side, established occultists claim the 400 to 1000 year span between lives. Why shouldn't we trust them since they often exhibit clarity and discrimination in other areas of research and knowledge. But on the other hand, mountains of anecdotal evidence from Weiss to Wambaugh to Stevenson and lesser known researchers and reporters indicate much more frequent time spans between incarnations. Now the method is the madness. Can we trust hypnotic reports or interviews from normal people who do not know the intricacies of the psyche and spiritual worlds? Putting aside the comic book or tabloid type reports of obvious frauds, I was Mary or Napoleon, there are some very interesting stories that sound plausible and the time span could be 100 years or less.
       
      Often these reports offer psychchological insight into mysteries of illness and relationships. Are they all being deceived (by themselves) or by floating spiritual images from afar. Its hard to tell. There is a new book out by AP Press that may answer some of your questions: Living with Invisible People by Josstein Saether. He is described a long time meditator (apparently using AP methods) who broke through and "saw" many of his past lives. The website may have the book description. Of course, Steiner lectures on Karmic Relationships are a must but often do not jive with extensive research.
       
      As a side note, there is some sense in the 400 to 1000 year time period and the richer and more complex the life, the longer to process and create new karmic conditions. Create life circumstance involve others, a cultural time period to fit into too, etc. and  I find it very hard to accept anyone (other and in an infant death under 7 or so) coming back within 100 years or even 30. I have a friend who is 50 and did a regression some years ago.He is convinced he died as German war pilot during WW2. That would leave about 6 years between lives! I don't think so. But his regression experience was vivid and he identified with this pilot fully. He is Jewish by the way! The Anne Frank example may feel convincing to that person but its hard to accept for the above reasons. Often what can occur as I understand it, is an affinity relationship in the astral world where identities merge do due conscious or unconscious interest. One can lose oneself into a historical figure by contacting or witnessing the powerful astral events of  that person (or their astral persona) and then strongly believe one was that person. One brings the these memories into a session or they may spring forth from the soul unconscious.
       
      jeff auen
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:56 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

      Hi everyone,

      I am deeply interested in the understanding of past lives. I am wondering if
      anyone on the list can offer insight into forces governing karma and
      reincarnation. For example, I have a strong sense that I lived a life during
      the 19th Century. In Steiner's lecture series "Life Between Death and
      Rebirth" he suggests that the soul tends to incarnate once every one thousand
      years. However, from what I gather from my studies (Steiner and otherwise) it
      seems the soul can, in fact, return to the earth in shorter intervals if
      attracted strongly enough. For example, a woman has recently published an
      Anthroposophical book in which she reveals her previous incarnation to have
      been that of Anne Frank. This woman was born in about 1955, only eleven years
      after Frank's death.

      My heart is more than willing to accept the idea that I lived previously in
      the 19th Century, but my mind reserves a tiny sliver of skepticism.

      Can anyone shed some light on this question?

      Sincerely,

      John McCurdy
      Hamilton, ON Canada


      http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
      Unsubscribe:
      anthroposophy-unsubscribe@egroups.com 
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    • john.shirtliff
      Dear Jeff, Please don t freak. To what do you ascribe the baby boom after the last two wars? There were understandably thousands of people who had not
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 15, 2001
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        Dear Jeff,
         
        Please don't freak. To what do you ascribe the 'baby boom' after the last two wars? There were understandably thousands of people who had not completed their tour in this part of the evolution of consciousness.
         
        Steiner started to show how to perceive our previous lives as early as 1902 but there was so much antipathy to this that he back pedalled.
         
        It was only in the last, constricted years, (after the burning of the first Goetheanum) that he finally made the statements that gave us the pointers to one of our tasks. i.e. perceiving our past lives.
         
        There is no 'magic' in this. By concentrated effort over a short period of time (weeks rather than years) we can experience details of our previous incarnations.
         
        We are requested (required) to do this work on (and for) ourselves, now, as we are incarnated. We cannot do this when we are in the spiritual world.
         
        Regards,
         
        John.
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jeff auen
        Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 4:39 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

        John,
         
        You are probably going to receive a great deal of response to this and its knotty area of research. I too have been interested this field for years but stand more frustrated than ever. Here is the rub: on one side, established occultists claim the 400 to 1000 year span between lives. Why shouldn't we trust them since they often exhibit clarity and discrimination in other areas of research and knowledge. But on the other hand, mountains of anecdotal evidence from Weiss to Wambaugh to Stevenson and lesser known researchers and reporters indicate much more frequent time spans between incarnations. Now the method is the madness. Can we trust hypnotic reports or interviews from normal people who do not know the intricacies of the psyche and spiritual worlds? Putting aside the comic book or tabloid type reports of obvious frauds, I was Mary or Napoleon, there are some very interesting stories that sound plausible and the time span could be 100 years or less.
         
        Often these reports offer psychchological insight into mysteries of illness and relationships. Are they all being deceived (by themselves) or by floating spiritual images from afar. Its hard to tell. There is a new book out by AP Press that may answer some of your questions: Living with Invisible People by Josstein Saether. He is described a long time meditator (apparently using AP methods) who broke through and "saw" many of his past lives. The website may have the book description. Of course, Steiner lectures on Karmic Relationships are a must but often do not jive with extensive research.
         
        As a side note, there is some sense in the 400 to 1000 year time period and the richer and more complex the life, the longer to process and create new karmic conditions. Create life circumstance involve others, a cultural time period to fit into too, etc. and  I find it very hard to accept anyone (other and in an infant death under 7 or so) coming back within 100 years or even 30. I have a friend who is 50 and did a regression some years ago.He is convinced he died as German war pilot during WW2. That would leave about 6 years between lives! I don't think so. But his regression experience was vivid and he identified with this pilot fully. He is Jewish by the way! The Anne Frank example may feel convincing to that person but its hard to accept for the above reasons. Often what can occur as I understand it, is an affinity relationship in the astral world where identities merge do due conscious or unconscious interest. One can lose oneself into a historical figure by contacting or witnessing the powerful astral events of  that person (or their astral persona) and then strongly believe one was that person. One brings the these memories into a session or they may spring forth from the soul unconscious.
         
        jeff auen
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:56 PM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

        Hi everyone,

        I am deeply interested in the understanding of past lives. I am wondering if
        anyone on the list can offer insight into forces governing karma and
        reincarnation. For example, I have a strong sense that I lived a life during
        the 19th Century. In Steiner's lecture series "Life Between Death and
        Rebirth" he suggests that the soul tends to incarnate once every one thousand
        years. However, from what I gather from my studies (Steiner and otherwise) it
        seems the soul can, in fact, return to the earth in shorter intervals if
        attracted strongly enough. For example, a woman has recently published an
        Anthroposophical book in which she reveals her previous incarnation to have
        been that of Anne Frank. This woman was born in about 1955, only eleven years
        after Frank's death.

        My heart is more than willing to accept the idea that I lived previously in
        the 19th Century, but my mind reserves a tiny sliver of skepticism.

        Can anyone shed some light on this question?

        Sincerely,

        John McCurdy
        Hamilton, ON Canada


        http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
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      • jeff auen
        It tough for me to freak out about anything anymore and this is mild. When one considers the entire population of the earth throughout history, it would not
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 16, 2001
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          It tough for me to freak out about anything anymore and this is mild. When one considers the entire population of the earth throughout history, it would not reach even 1 billion progressively. Most of these souls were reincarnated but there is not accounting for the billions now on earth unless we consider most of them being held out of incarnation for thousands of years and they are now here to experience this turning point in evolution.
           
          I find it interesting that past life review is so simple. I am not being facetious but after many years of the review experience and work , flashing images and feelings about time and places doesn't impress me much. True past life recall must be fuller and more panoramic with clear Egoic identification (much training) to that lifetime. Dream interludes can help if one prepares for it before sleep. I would be interested to hear generally (not about life specifics-too personal) about what you have accomplished and how.
           
          jeff
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:18 AM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

          Dear Jeff,
           
          Please don't freak. To what do you ascribe the 'baby boom' after the last two wars? There were understandably thousands of people who had not completed their tour in this part of the evolution of consciousness.
           
          Steiner started to show how to perceive our previous lives as early as 1902 but there was so much antipathy to this that he back pedalled.
           
          It was only in the last, constricted years, (after the burning of the first Goetheanum) that he finally made the statements that gave us the pointers to one of our tasks. i.e. perceiving our past lives.
           
          There is no 'magic' in this. By concentrated effort over a short period of time (weeks rather than years) we can experience details of our previous incarnations.
           
          We are requested (required) to do this work on (and for) ourselves, now, as we are incarnated. We cannot do this when we are in the spiritual world.
           
          Regards,
           
          John.
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jeff auen
          Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 4:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

          John,
           
          You are probably going to receive a great deal of response to this and its knotty area of research. I too have been interested this field for years but stand more frustrated than ever. Here is the rub: on one side, established occultists claim the 400 to 1000 year span between lives. Why shouldn't we trust them since they often exhibit clarity and discrimination in other areas of research and knowledge. But on the other hand, mountains of anecdotal evidence from Weiss to Wambaugh to Stevenson and lesser known researchers and reporters indicate much more frequent time spans between incarnations. Now the method is the madness. Can we trust hypnotic reports or interviews from normal people who do not know the intricacies of the psyche and spiritual worlds? Putting aside the comic book or tabloid type reports of obvious frauds, I was Mary or Napoleon, there are some very interesting stories that sound plausible and the time span could be 100 years or less.
           
          Often these reports offer psychchological insight into mysteries of illness and relationships. Are they all being deceived (by themselves) or by floating spiritual images from afar. Its hard to tell. There is a new book out by AP Press that may answer some of your questions: Living with Invisible People by Josstein Saether. He is described a long time meditator (apparently using AP methods) who broke through and "saw" many of his past lives. The website may have the book description. Of course, Steiner lectures on Karmic Relationships are a must but often do not jive with extensive research.
           
          As a side note, there is some sense in the 400 to 1000 year time period and the richer and more complex the life, the longer to process and create new karmic conditions. Create life circumstance involve others, a cultural time period to fit into too, etc. and  I find it very hard to accept anyone (other and in an infant death under 7 or so) coming back within 100 years or even 30. I have a friend who is 50 and did a regression some years ago.He is convinced he died as German war pilot during WW2. That would leave about 6 years between lives! I don't think so. But his regression experience was vivid and he identified with this pilot fully. He is Jewish by the way! The Anne Frank example may feel convincing to that person but its hard to accept for the above reasons. Often what can occur as I understand it, is an affinity relationship in the astral world where identities merge do due conscious or unconscious interest. One can lose oneself into a historical figure by contacting or witnessing the powerful astral events of  that person (or their astral persona) and then strongly believe one was that person. One brings the these memories into a session or they may spring forth from the soul unconscious.
           
          jeff auen
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:56 PM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

          Hi everyone,

          I am deeply interested in the understanding of past lives. I am wondering if
          anyone on the list can offer insight into forces governing karma and
          reincarnation. For example, I have a strong sense that I lived a life during
          the 19th Century. In Steiner's lecture series "Life Between Death and
          Rebirth" he suggests that the soul tends to incarnate once every one thousand
          years. However, from what I gather from my studies (Steiner and otherwise) it
          seems the soul can, in fact, return to the earth in shorter intervals if
          attracted strongly enough. For example, a woman has recently published an
          Anthroposophical book in which she reveals her previous incarnation to have
          been that of Anne Frank. This woman was born in about 1955, only eleven years
          after Frank's death.

          My heart is more than willing to accept the idea that I lived previously in
          the 19th Century, but my mind reserves a tiny sliver of skepticism.

          Can anyone shed some light on this question?

          Sincerely,

          John McCurdy
          Hamilton, ON Canada


          http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
          Unsubscribe:
          anthroposophy-unsubscribe@egroups.com 
          List owner:  anthroposophy-owner@egroups.com 


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        • starmann77@aol.com
          JadMcCurdy@aol.com writes:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 16, 2001
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            JadMcCurdy@... writes:
            << I have a strong sense that I lived a life during the 19th Century. In
            Steiner's lecture series "Life Between Death and Rebirth" he suggests that
            the soul tends to incarnate once every one thousand years. However, from what
            I gather from my studies (Steiner and otherwise) it seems the soul can, in
            fact, return to the earth in shorter intervals if
            attracted strongly enough. For example, a woman has recently published an
            Anthroposophical book in which she reveals her previous incarnation to have
            been that of Anne Frank. This woman was born in about 1955, only eleven years
            after Frank's death.
            My heart is more than willing to accept the idea that I lived previously in
            the 19th Century, but my mind reserves a tiny sliver of skepticism. >>

            *******Steiner was speaking of the past---he also said the interval had
            already sped up---and also of those he experienced, people in Central Europe.
            In America and in the Eastern Hemisphere, there are numerous instances of
            rapid reincarnation, even instant. Also, the laws of karma are capable of
            infinite flexibility to suit individual needs. Those souls that needed to be
            in the twentieth century but had their lives cut short not by natural
            disaters but by Man's doing, by war, came back very quickly. Steiner said
            much more about these many adjustments in the ways of Karma than just a
            general statement about a 1000-year interval.

            Starman
          • starmann77@aol.com
            john.shirtliff@ntlworld.com writes:
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 16, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              john.shirtliff@... writes:
              << Please don't freak. To what do you ascribe the 'baby boom' after the last
              two wars? There were understandably thousands of people who had not completed
              their tour in this part of the evolution of consciousness. >>

              *******I think that's absolutely right. Why were the baby boomers in the US
              so fiercely anti-war? It's not fun to have your life plans destroyed by
              governments, whether run by German madmen or US anti-Communists with a
              visceral hatred of 'gooks'.
            • JadMcCurdy@aol.com
              Hi everyone, I m finding all the different points of view, bits of information and personal hunches into karma and reincarnation very very helpful. To others:
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 16, 2001
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                Hi everyone,

                I'm finding all the different points of view, bits of information and
                personal hunches into karma and reincarnation very very helpful. To others:
                keep them coming! I'll be sure to mull and meditate over all the responses
                over the next few weeks.

                Sincerely,

                John A. McCurdy
              • carynmayo@msn.com
                Hi-- I am new to this list. This post caught my attention... I too have done extensive past life recall--through dreams and meditations, etc. and have come to
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 20, 2001
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                  Hi--

                  I am new to this list. This post caught my attention...
                  I too have done extensive past life recall--through dreams and
                  meditations, etc. and have come to realize that many of us have been
                  here more than once evey 1,000 years.

                  I, like the woman who mentioned that she was Anne Frank in a past
                  life, only to return 11 years later in this life, have had past lives
                  that are a mere 8-10 years difference from the end of one to the
                  beginning to another. Both of those lives were significant, although
                  I am still trying to find the exact significance of the later
                  lifetime.

                  To introduce myself---
                  I am a graduate of a Waldorf highschool in the USA, and just recenly
                  have returned there as an employee working in the administration. It
                  is a wonderful experience and something that is really become a great
                  importance to my life and my spiritual work. I am looking forward to
                  learning and sharing with you all.

                  Peace!
                  Caryn

                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., starmann77@a... wrote:
                  > JadMcCurdy@a... writes:
                  > << I have a strong sense that I lived a life during the 19th
                  Century. In
                  > Steiner's lecture series "Life Between Death and Rebirth" he
                  suggests that
                  > the soul tends to incarnate once every one thousand years. However,
                  from what
                  > I gather from my studies (Steiner and otherwise) it seems the soul
                  can, in
                  > fact, return to the earth in shorter intervals if
                  > attracted strongly enough. For example, a woman has recently
                  published an
                  > Anthroposophical book in which she reveals her previous incarnation
                  to have
                  > been that of Anne Frank. This woman was born in about 1955, only
                  eleven years
                  > after Frank's death.
                  > My heart is more than willing to accept the idea that I lived
                  previously in
                  > the 19th Century, but my mind reserves a tiny sliver of skepticism.
                  >>
                  >
                  > *******Steiner was speaking of the past---he also said the interval
                  had
                  > already sped up---and also of those he experienced, people in
                  Central Europe.
                  > In America and in the Eastern Hemisphere, there are numerous
                  instances of
                  > rapid reincarnation, even instant. Also, the laws of karma are
                  capable of
                  > infinite flexibility to suit individual needs. Those souls that
                  needed to be
                  > in the twentieth century but had their lives cut short not by
                  natural
                  > disaters but by Man's doing, by war, came back very quickly.
                  Steiner said
                  > much more about these many adjustments in the ways of Karma than
                  just a
                  > general statement about a 1000-year interval.
                  >
                  > Starman
                • john.shirtliff
                  Jeff, Apologies for the delay, and I haven t found precisely what I was looking for in the Karmic Relationships lectures but this is a similar approach: From:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 23, 2001
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                    Jeff,
                     
                    Apologies for the delay, and I haven't found precisely what I was looking for in the Karmic Relationships lectures but this is a similar approach:
                     

                    From: Intimate workings of Karma, Vienna 9 February 1912

                    Contained in 'Esoteric Christianity and the mission of Christian Rosencreutz.,Rudolf Steiner Press London UK.

                    "We will proceed in a rather curious way. As an experiment, we will imagine that we ourselves have willed whatever may have happened to us. Suppose a loose tile from the roof of a house happened to crash down upon us. We will picture, purely by way of experiment, that this did not happen by chance, and will deliberately imagine that we ourselves climbed on that roof, loosened the tile and then ran down so quickly that we arrived just in time to be hit by it! Like the unfortunate lady who, being discontented with her lot, exposed herself to a chill and died of it! In this way, therefore we will imagine that things otherwise attributable to chance have been deliberately and carefully planned by ourselves. And we will also apply the same procedures to matters which are obviously dependent upon the faculties and qualities we happen to possess. Say some arrangement does not work out as planned. If we miss a train, for example, we shall not blame external circumstances but picture to ourselves that it was due to our own slackness. If we think in this way, as an experiment, we shall gradually succeed in creating a kind of being in our imagination, a very extraordinary being, who was responsible for these things - for a stone to have fallen upon us, for some illness, and so forth. We shall realise, of course, that this being is not ourselves; we simply picture such a being vividly and distinctly. And then, after a time, we will have a strange experience in connection with this being. We shall realise that though it is a creature we have only conjured up, yet we cannot free ourselves from him nor from the thought of him, and strange to say he does not stay as he is; he becomes alive and transforms himself within us. And then, when he has gone through this transformation, we get the impression that he is really there within us, And then we become more and more certain that we ourselves have had something to do with the things we constructed in imagination. There is no suggestion whatever that we once actually did them; but such thoughts do, nevertheless, correspond in a certain way with something we have done. We shall tell ourselves: 'I have done this and that, and I am now having to suffer the consequences'. This is a very good exercise for unfolding in the life of feeling a kind of memory of earlier incarnations. The soul seems to feel: 'I myself was there and prepared these things for myself'.

                    You will readily understand that is it not easy to awaken the memory of previous incarnations. For just think what mental effort is required to recall something only recently forgotten; genuine mental effort is required. Experiences which occurred in previous incarnations have sunk into the depths of forgetfulness and much has to be done if they are to be remembered. One such exercise has just been described."

                    Regards,

                    John

                     

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: jeff auen
                    Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 5:35 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

                    It tough for me to freak out about anything anymore and this is mild. When one considers the entire population of the earth throughout history, it would not reach even 1 billion progressively. Most of these souls were reincarnated but there is not accounting for the billions now on earth unless we consider most of them being held out of incarnation for thousands of years and they are now here to experience this turning point in evolution.
                     
                    I find it interesting that past life review is so simple. I am not being facetious but after many years of the review experience and work , flashing images and feelings about time and places doesn't impress me much. True past life recall must be fuller and more panoramic with clear Egoic identification (much training) to that lifetime. Dream interludes can help if one prepares for it before sleep. I would be interested to hear generally (not about life specifics-too personal) about what you have accomplished and how.
                     
                    jeff
                  • jeff auen
                    Apologies for the delay, and I haven t found precisely what I was looking for in the Karmic Relationships lectures but this is a similar approach: From:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 23, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Apologies for the delay, and I haven't found precisely what I was looking for in the Karmic Relationships lectures but this is a similar approach:
                       

                      From: Intimate workings of Karma, Vienna 9 February 1912

                      Contained in 'Esoteric Christianity and the mission of Christian Rosencreutz.,Rudolf Steiner Press London UK.

                      "We will proceed in a rather curious way. As an experiment, we will imagine that we ourselves have willed whatever may have happened to us. Suppose a loose tile from the roof of a house happened to crash down upon us. We will picture, purely by way of experiment, that this did not happen by chance, and will deliberately imagine that we ourselves climbed on that roof, loosened the tile and then ran down so quickly that we arrived just in time to be hit by it! Like the unfortunate lady who, being discontented with her lot, exposed herself to a chill and died of it! In this way, therefore we will imagine that things otherwise attributable to chance have been deliberately and carefully planned by ourselves. And we will also apply the same procedures to matters which are obviously dependent upon the faculties and qualities we happen to possess. Say some arrangement does not work out as planned. If we miss a train, for example, we shall not blame external circumstances but picture to ourselves that it was due to our own slackness. If we think in this way, as an experiment, we shall gradually succeed in creating a kind of being in our imagination, a very extraordinary being, who was responsible for these things - for a stone to have fallen upon us, for some illness, and so forth. We shall realise, of course, that this being is not ourselves; we simply picture such a being vividly and distinctly. And then, after a time, we will have a strange experience in connection with this being. We shall realise that though it is a creature we have only conjured up, yet we cannot free ourselves from him nor from the thought of him, and strange to say he does not stay as he is; he becomes alive and transforms himself within us. And then, when he has gone through this transformation, we get the impression that he is really there within us, And then we become more and more certain that we ourselves have had something to do with the things we constructed in imagination. There is no suggestion whatever that we once actually did them; but such thoughts do, nevertheless, correspond in a certain way with something we have done. We shall tell ourselves: 'I have done this and that, and I am now having to suffer the consequences'. This is a very good exercise for unfolding in the life of feeling a kind of memory of earlier incarnations. The soul seems to feel: 'I myself was there and prepared these things for myself'.

                      You will readily understand that is it not easy to awaken the memory of previous incarnations. For just think what mental effort is required to recall something only recently forgotten; genuine mental effort is required. Experiences which occurred in previous incarnations have sunk into the depths of forgetfulness and much has to be done if they are to be remembered. One such exercise has just been described."

                      Regards,

                      John

                       

                      Jeff:
                      Good example. I recall RS using this in several places to illustrate the nature of our responsibility in karmic events. But notice the train example. Its our present day "slothfulness" that creates the missed train not some past karmic influence ( though at times this can be the case. I was driving once and in a particular mood of recalling something of the past day interactions with someone which in turn took my attention off the road. At that time, 1985 or so, I used to drive fairly fast on this local road but was slowed down by 5 or 10 mph. Just as I approached a familiar intersection, someone went through the stop sign and crossed the street just where I would have been had I been driving normally. I knew in an instant that this was no mistake but a inner protective process had prevented me from being hit. I am sure others have there own stories.)
                       
                      It surely seems that we create circumstances freely now and not just as the result of past lives. I still think we are woefully unprepared for truly knowing the details of past lives and karma as it would freeze us in time- being unable to deal with the positive or negative events about to happen. Just recently a young boy was riding his bike and for not reason (provocation) was attacked by 3 pit bulls and mangled beyond recognition. He is still clinging to life. For us to say, it was karmic may be correct but there is so much more to consider. And such an explanation would be shot down and brushed aside as an insult to conventional thinking. Do accidents occur??
                       
                      As for recall. I agree. Free floating access to these records just doesn't make sense. We can't even recall what we did during period of time five years ago less 500 hundreds. Vivid pictures of historical events does not preclude that this was us at that time. Where do these pictures come from? Good question.
                       
                       
                      Jeff
                       
                    • john.shirtliff
                      Jeff, It is my understanding of Steiner that it is our task or duty to get on with the exercises necessary to connect in waking day consciousness with the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 26, 2001
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                        Jeff,
                         
                        It is my understanding of Steiner that it is our task or duty to get on with the exercises necessary to connect in waking day consciousness with the spiritual world. The efforts required are, of necessity, strenuous, but no more than physical exercise.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        John.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: jeff auen
                        Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:40 PM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Seeking Insight RE: Karma and Reincarnation

                        Apologies for the delay, and I haven't found precisely what I was looking for in the Karmic Relationships lectures but this is a similar approach:
                         

                        From: Intimate workings of Karma, Vienna 9 February 1912

                        Contained in 'Esoteric Christianity and the mission of Christian Rosencreutz.,Rudolf Steiner Press London UK.

                        "We will proceed in a rather curious way. As an experiment, we will imagine that we ourselves have willed whatever may have happened to us. Suppose a loose tile from the roof of a house happened to crash down upon us. We will picture, purely by way of experiment, that this did not happen by chance, and will deliberately imagine that we ourselves climbed on that roof, loosened the tile and then ran down so quickly that we arrived just in time to be hit by it! Like the unfortunate lady who, being discontented with her lot, exposed herself to a chill and died of it! In this way, therefore we will imagine that things otherwise attributable to chance have been deliberately and carefully planned by ourselves. And we will also apply the same procedures to matters which are obviously dependent upon the faculties and qualities we happen to possess. Say some arrangement does not work out as planned. If we miss a train, for example, we shall not blame external circumstances but picture to ourselves that it was due to our own slackness. If we think in this way, as an experiment, we shall gradually succeed in creating a kind of being in our imagination, a very extraordinary being, who was responsible for these things - for a stone to have fallen upon us, for some illness, and so forth. We shall realise, of course, that this being is not ourselves; we simply picture such a being vividly and distinctly. And then, after a time, we will have a strange experience in connection with this being. We shall realise that though it is a creature we have only conjured up, yet we cannot free ourselves from him nor from the thought of him, and strange to say he does not stay as he is; he becomes alive and transforms himself within us. And then, when he has gone through this transformation, we get the impression that he is really there within us, And then we become more and more certain that we ourselves have had something to do with the things we constructed in imagination. There is no suggestion whatever that we once actually did them; but such thoughts do, nevertheless, correspond in a certain way with something we have done. We shall tell ourselves: 'I have done this and that, and I am now having to suffer the consequences'. This is a very good exercise for unfolding in the life of feeling a kind of memory of earlier incarnations. The soul seems to feel: 'I myself was there and prepared these things for myself'.

                        You will readily understand that is it not easy to awaken the memory of previous incarnations. For just think what mental effort is required to recall something only recently forgotten; genuine mental effort is required. Experiences which occurred in previous incarnations have sunk into the depths of forgetfulness and much has to be done if they are to be remembered. One such exercise has just been described."

                        Regards,

                        John

                         

                        Jeff:
                        Good example. I recall RS using this in several places to illustrate the nature of our responsibility in karmic events. But notice the train example. Its our present day "slothfulness" that creates the missed train not some past karmic influence ( though at times this can be the case. I was driving once and in a particular mood of recalling something of the past day interactions with someone which in turn took my attention off the road. At that time, 1985 or so, I used to drive fairly fast on this local road but was slowed down by 5 or 10 mph. Just as I approached a familiar intersection, someone went through the stop sign and crossed the street just where I would have been had I been driving normally. I knew in an instant that this was no mistake but a inner protective process had prevented me from being hit. I am sure others have there own stories.)
                         
                        It surely seems that we create circumstances freely now and not just as the result of past lives. I still think we are woefully unprepared for truly knowing the details of past lives and karma as it would freeze us in time- being unable to deal with the positive or negative events about to happen. Just recently a young boy was riding his bike and for not reason (provocation) was attacked by 3 pit bulls and mangled beyond recognition. He is still clinging to life. For us to say, it was karmic may be correct but there is so much more to consider. And such an explanation would be shot down and brushed aside as an insult to conventional thinking. Do accidents occur??
                         
                        As for recall. I agree. Free floating access to these records just doesn't make sense. We can't even recall what we did during period of time five years ago less 500 hundreds. Vivid pictures of historical events does not preclude that this was us at that time. Where do these pictures come from? Good question.
                         
                         
                        Jeff
                         


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                      • jeff auen
                        It is my understanding of Steiner that it is our task or duty to get on with the exercises necessary to connect in waking day consciousness with the spiritual
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 26, 2001
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                          It is my understanding of Steiner that it is our task or duty to get on with the exercises necessary to connect in waking day consciousness with the spiritual world. The efforts required are, of necessity, strenuous, but no more than physical exercise.
                           
                          Regards,
                           
                          John.
                           
                           
                           
                          John,
                           
                          How I wish this were true. We have spoken about this "strenuous" path before in other groups but suffice it to say, I don't think its just about effort and duty or persistence. This recommendation can taken so glibly, so matter of fact, that it belies the real issue -
                          total psycho-spiritual transformation and increased sensitivity/contact with psychic and spiritual forces around us and within. This is a major failing point in AP-we lack mentors  who have direct experience and who can assist people in the long and slow process of unfoldment. Though much takes place below consciousness for many, there are times and stages where they intrude and impact on daily life. One is on their own in dealing with these issues.Study groups do not truly deal with this. Reading metaphysics or discussing obtuse passages will not help. Maybe the new psychology movement within AP will address this as other paths have. And yes,we are encouraged to persist in our work but its nice to see some progress or shift in our soul life that may indicate that results are coming about.
                           
                          jeff
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