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Re: A Moral Reckoning

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  • carol
    S: So were your two children the product of an experiment? Or just accidents, or what? Mine were the product of a life-bonding committment, and maybe that s
    Message 1 of 111 , Aug 2, 2008
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      S: "So were your two children the product of an experiment? Or just accidents, or what? Mine were the product of a life-bonding
      committment, and maybe that's what I'm not understanding about you."

      No Asureus in my analytic interplay involving this statement. It appears plain and simple to me. You defined your choice to be a FATHER through your procreative activity within a lawful marriage- and then ASSUMED that since my MOTHERHOOD occured outside of the confines marriage, then it must essentially be devoid of the multiplicity of upreaching forces of LIFE.

      An accident, an experiment. This is Luciferic, with an Ahrimanic tinge to it. Materialistic, plain and simple, with it being quite out of touch with living reality.

      How is it that you can presume such a disjointed reflection  of my condition of motherhood? Is it because you, yourself  find yourself  'locked' within a disjointed personal experience vis a vis reality? Pure materialism perhaps? And then further on,  you feel a given 'right' to project it onto me?


      PS. "in the spirit of genuine interest ".  You discredit  'spirit' for your own SELFISH interests.

      And that's luciferic as well.

      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > May I remind you STEVE, that this is an anthroposophic discussion
      > forum-
      > > it's not really the place to COMPARE societal approval status.
      > >
      > > S: "So were your two children the product of an experiment? Or just
      > > accidents, or what? Mine were the product of a life-bonding
      > > committment, and maybe that's what I'm not understanding about you.
      > I
      > > never intended to get married until I was twenty-nine years old, but
      > > then circumstances changed. Did you have circumstances, or just
      > > experiments and/or accidents?"
      > >
      > > I had LIFE FORCE, INTUITION, INSPIRATION and a receptive WILL force.
      > >
      > > I followed what the cosmos spelled out to me.
      > >
      > > My children were decided realizations, on my part.
      > >
      > > PS. I find your word choice and usage quite Luciferic, with a strong
      > > Ahrimanic 'tinge' to it.
      > See, there's the problem. I ask in the spirit of genuine interest
      > and for you it comes out luciferic with ahrimanic undertone. Maybe
      > it is due to my lack of labeling skills that I can't see these traits
      > more directly in my word and sentence structure as it expresses my
      > thought content. Your sense for seeing these traits in my
      > personality and caracter are indeed impressive, and for my money, I
      > would attribute your keen ability to a distinct relation to asuras,
      > who has this power to make the luciferic and ahrimanic more visible.
      > In fact, if you mentally place Soradt between Lucifer and Ahriman in
      > the configuration of the Representative of Anti-Man as the reverse of
      > what Steiner describes in the lecture: Christ In Relation to Lucifer
      > and Ahriman, 18 May 1915, you will find that Soradt has the power to
      > resurrect these two in a form that raises them again into a prominent
      > position relative to the human astral body and etheric body. The
      > influence now becomes *inimical* to all that Steiner carefully
      > describes in the aforementioned lecture. Two years later he would
      > begin to sculpt this concept of the Representative of Man with the
      > sculptor Edith Maryon in a great work of art involving the
      > combination of head and hand.
      > The Representative of Anti-Man must be envisioned as well, and its
      > configuration is certain to be more grotesque and horrific; but
      > nonetheless real. As a quite contemporary reflection of the very
      > real evidence of negative third force energy now working in the human
      > ego it would have to convey a very hideous being; one that now
      > invades the fledgling conscious ego in the same way that Lucifer
      > resides in the astral body, and Ahriman in the etheric body.
      > The Eighth Sphere is essentially the home of Lucifer and Ahriman, and
      > gains strength and density through the ability of Asuras to gain a
      > foothold in the human ego. As such, the asurically-aligned ego is
      > the father to Lucifer and Ahriman in an act of negative redemption;
      > one that is harmful to the original purpose for which Lucifer and
      > Ahriman wrestled for a certain control that had the effect of making
      > man free.
      > Steve

    • Stephen Hale
      ... forces ... had ... the ... In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple s soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the
      Message 111 of 111 , Sep 6, 2008
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        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
        > I still find that `psychic life` development implies engaging the forces
        > of the inner soul towards astral/devachanic inner
        > perception/clairvoyance. A condition of sleep implies astral
        > experience.
        > The second stream, requires an extroverted application. Experience is
        > drawn outward- to face the world, all things manifest, to witness form
        > and then further on, the `geometric` principal of astral determination
        > . To view the workings of the living world is first and foremost to
        > witness etheric forces furnishing mobility and multiplicity of form.
        > Pride suggests a meeting with the outside manifest world. The pupil had
        > at first, to disregard his inner `astral' experience in order
        > to more solidly greet the manifest world- which is why I associated the
        > body/etheric to this latter type of initiation
        > I see that there are different ways of looking at it- or would it be
        > more correct to say- there`s a paradox to this.

        In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple's soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the events of the cosmos and raise himself to the soul-spiritual essence permeating the universe. His experience differed markedly from ordinary contemplation of nature because he felt he lived within the very soul of the universe. In not a bad but a good sense, he was beside himself. He was, though one hesitates to use this word because it has taken on an unpleasant connotation, in ecstasy. Upon achieving this union with the cosmos he could say to himself that through living in the universe and through experiencing its most intimate soul-spiritual forces, he had come to realize that everywhere the final goal of the cosmos is the creation of man. Did man not exist, the whole creation could not fulfill its end, because he was the meaning of the cosmos.

        Carol, it is not possible to remove the Etheric Body from the physical body without death occurring immediately.  Therefore, for this reason alone the second type of ancient mystery stream concerns the Astral Body.  Consider all that the lecture:  The Work of the Angels in Man's Astral Body gives as a point of further reference for what now takes place in the state of dreamless sleep.   Dream sleep involves the etheric body and its close union with the physical body. 

        During sleeping we interact with the spiritual worlds when the astral-ego organization leaves the etheric-physical organization and engages its spiritual communion in the astral and higher devachanic realms.  The ego, as such in our present development, is a silent witness to the work of the astral body in receiving the impressions of the angelic hierarchies, which are then carried down into the etheric body.  Dreaming is an etheric activity conducted in middle devachan by the astral body, in which our past lives are traveled through and mixed in with the recent physical body experiences of the present life.  Chaos is the general order of the dream experience, which is countered by the objectively ordered pictures of the waking conscious (relative) experience.  Waking up from a dream is felt entirely in the etheric body as a present-moment experience of consciousness.  As soon as the outer world is detected this consciousness sinks down into the subconscious and the dream is forgotten in favor of relative waking consciousness. 

        Practice can allow one to develop the ability to remain within the present-moment consciousness when first awakening as a meditative exercise.  Spiritual science cultivates this desire to remain within the fold of the waking dream experience wherein many truths of independently investigated subjects are intuited and further inspired into imaginative content.

        But as soon as the eyes and ears turn to the sense world, a buffer is created between the environment and the previously felt inner domain, and that which had just been on the surface sinks down into the famed "subconsciousness" of Freud. 

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