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Re: A Moral Reckoning

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  • carol
    May I remind you STEVE, that this is an anthroposophic discussion forum- it s not really the place to COMPARE societal approval status. S: So were your two
    Message 1 of 111 , Aug 2, 2008
      May I remind you STEVE, that this is an anthroposophic discussion forum-
      it's not really the place to COMPARE societal approval status.

      S: "So were your two children the product of an experiment? Or just
      accidents, or what? Mine were the product of a life-bonding
      committment, and maybe that's what I'm not understanding about you. I
      never intended to get married until I was twenty-nine years old, but
      then circumstances changed. Did you have circumstances, or just
      experiments and/or accidents?"

      I had LIFE FORCE, INTUITION, INSPIRATION and a receptive WILL force.

      I followed what the cosmos spelled out to me.

      My children were decided realizations, on my part.

      PS. I find your word choice and usage quite Luciferic, with a strong
      Ahrimanic 'tinge' to it.


      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > S: "In reality, I don't think you have any right whatsoever to
      > speak of
      > > my life or its substance. To do so only leads to the shallow
      > comments
      > > you've made. And I don't care. That's the risk I take."
      > >
      > > -"Now, I want to ask you something very important concerning this
      > > experience at eight years old by yours truly."
      > >
      > > Now Steve, using the clearest form of analytic rational which
      > > caracterizes our current epoch, the one of which the consciousness
      > soul
      > > is to employ for it's furtherance, DO you SEE a contradiction in
      > what
      > > was written by YOU in this present post?
      > >
      > > Steve, are you asking for my input, or not?
      > >
      > > S: "I could certainly try to make sense of what you're trying to say
      > > about yourself, but I have no idea of what it means to have a child
      > at
      > > twenty-two and another at twenty-five, and a christian friend with a
      > > muslim father at twenty-two, which causes you to go home, yet have
      > two
      > > muslim children yourself. That must be the difference between you
      > and
      > > me."
      > >
      > > Wew, Steve, was your mind initially subject to murkiness before even
      > > considering the personal details which I shared with you?
      > >
      > > Let me present it again, but this time, please read it SLOWLY. My
      > first
      > > son was born to me only 3 months into my 19th year. My metamorphosis
      > > occured at the age of 22. That which 'triggered' it was a brief
      > > friendship with a pregant neihbor who was MARRIED to a Muslim Arab.
      > SHE,
      > > at the time, though visibly Christian in countenance,
      > was 'practicing'
      > > Islam. At age 25, I once again, became pregnant and gave birth at
      > age 26
      > > to an Arab child. Thus, I have 1 son of eastern European descent,
      > (my
      > > philosophical 'son') and 1 of Arab descent (my
      > extraverted 'cosmically
      > > oriented' son).
      > >
      > > Is this now clear?
      > >
      > > Again, when I was then a young mother to two children, I impressed
      > upon
      > > certain people of being in some way 'Jewish'. (I understand that
      > this
      > > info might confuse you).
      > >
      > >
      > > S: "Here's the difference: I can make myself as plain as day in
      > terms of
      > > my life and its progression."
      > >
      > > Through constructing this sentence, was this your 'outer' soul's
      > attempt
      > > to 'put me in the dog house' while you assured for yourself societal
      > > approval?
      > >
      > > -"You, on the other hand, are murky in my eyes. You make very little
      > > sense, although my heart reaches out to you. This probably comes as
      > a
      > > surprise from a guy; but please remember, I've been married for
      > > thirty-five years and raised three children to adulthood."
      > >
      > > HERE is yet another example of STEVE using his 'outer' self as
      > opposed
      > > to his 'theosophic' self in a dialogue adressed with an
      > Anthroposophist.
      > > The 'murkiness' which 'clouds' your mind's eye, IS something to take
      > > note of, Steve.
      > >
      > > THIS MURKINESS disappears as your consciousness soul develops
      > increased,
      > > heightened ability to decipher and understand spiritual variables to
      > > human life. And, may I add, that seeing as these variables can be
      > seen
      > > to count 'in infinitum', you may understand the need for a slow,
      > > methodical and sure pace in the spiritual investagator.
      > >
      > > Through the soul's own efforts, spiritual clarity is achieved.
      > >
      > > S; "And eleven years ago my entire family suffered a devastating
      > blow
      > > when my wife suffered a severe stroke (CVA) that came as a complete
      > > shock to all of us. Since then, she has been paralyzed on her right
      > side
      > > and went through many months of rehabilitation in order to get back
      > to a
      > > relatively normal degree of health, and happy life"
      > >
      > > It would seem that such an impressive event may have, in one way,
      > served
      > > your familly to 'distance itself' from a head on influence stemming
      > from
      > > the machinations of economic life- because of karmic conditions
      > which
      > > called for a strong focuss on the intimate human side of things.
      > >
      > > S: ". I only say this because your previous post struck my heart
      > with
      > > its message, and didn't say one derogatory thing about me."
      > >
      > > You know Steve, I've been careful NOT to judge you using standards
      > found
      > > in outward society. For some weeks now, I've been forming
      > a 'sympathy'
      > > towards your soul because of certain details which I have since
      > become
      > > cognisant of. You see Steve, in spite of my inherent clumsiness, MY
      > soul
      > > remains attentive to spiritual LESSONS.
      > >
      > > S: "This post, of course, is another matter, wherein you go right
      > back
      > > to your typically pompous and snobby judgmental attitude. And I
      > agree,
      > > let's leave the french folk soul out of consideration!"
      > >
      > > Impatience and anger? J-M alluded to the fact that this could be a
      > sign
      > > of exessive egoism still lingering towards the outer edges of the
      > > personality/ the outer self.
      > >
      > > S: "It's just you, Carol, in all your essence, that HAS to talk in
      > this
      > > manner. And I understand that. I've come to realize that *that* is
      > just
      > > YOU. You are who you are, plain and simple."
      > >
      > > Merci, ... très gentil de ta part.
      > >
      > > I really don't like when individuals impose the force of their
      > Wills in
      > > my direction, in order to divert my perception to more materialistic
      > > considerations. I DO put up a battle, either by total avoidance of
      > the
      > > individual or by supplicating them to engage 'heart forces'.
      > Sometimes,
      > > it happens that my angelic being 'nudges' me to stay on, in spite
      > of the
      > > difficulties it ensues towards my psycho/spiritual experience.
      > >
      > >
      > > S: "Now, I want to ask you something very important concerning this
      > > experience at eight years old by yours truly. Also, I will extend
      > this
      > > question to Jean-Marc. The reason for describing this experience
      > > concerned the fact that it led to something else. Do you remember? I
      > > said that the experience of extremely felt soul-pain led to a kind
      > of
      > > resolution, although it was not understood at the time, nor
      > lessened the
      > > grief it seemed. I realize now that *that* is exactly what is meant
      > to
      > > happen in these types of situations. And I can, and did, liken it
      > to a
      > > fundamentally important moment in time."
      > >
      > > Steve, I can't say that I really identify with your individual
      > > interpretation of these events. My reading into it is that first,
      > the
      > > Higher Realms set up certain events in your life which would prove
      > so
      > > impressive that they could be retrieved quite easily, later in life
      > when
      > > the time was right. You must realize Steve, that materialism is
      > > EXTREMELY dense, and that this density literally locks the inner
      > soul
      > > away from the outer soul. If Steve is a soul who has to go through
      > the
      > > process of 'recaping' antecendent biographical spiritual
      > development,
      > > then certain 'key' events have to be set in place to trigger this
      > > process. Thus, these events serve to 'slice through' as it were, the
      > > density of materialism which enrobed your outer self and then
      > > subsequently and effectively get YOU, Steve, back on track to
      > spiritual
      > > development. (in an organic, living sense).
      > >
      > > S: "When Jesus looked down from the Cross upon which He was strung
      > and
      > > stigmatized in pain, He saw His Mother standing next to Her sister,
      > > named Mary, who was standing next to Mary Magdalene, and in a
      > stroke of
      > > wisdom said: Mother, here is your son, and son here is your mother.
      > And
      > > from that moment the disciple whom the Lord loved took Her into his
      > > household.
      > >
      > > And thus was created Saint John The Evangelist. A tri-formed
      > spiritual
      > > being comprised of John the Baptist, Lazarus, and the Holy Mother of
      > > Jesus of Nazareth."
      > >
      > > I find that this is Steve's usage of external Biblical 'data' to
      > > 'stablelize' his soul moving experiences. I understand that
      > spiritual
      > > experience is overwhelming and very very tough, thorough and
      > tricky, so
      > > I do alot sympathy to the one who uses Biblical concepts in order to
      > > stablelize themselves. I myself have done just this, in the far
      > distant
      > > past.
      > >
      > > S: "Little Steve only felt himself transported back in time a short
      > ways
      > > to where the locomotives took people places before there were cars.
      > He
      > > felt himself in another place and time for about two hours; and
      > still
      > > wonders about it, and what it means. The only part he really knows
      > is
      > > that he has lived before. This was his security."
      > >
      > > I remember playing on my own, totally alone, at a small adult park
      > on
      > > the edge of the Niagara Escarpement, waiting for my siblings to
      > return
      > > from the local variety store (popsicles or candy), and FEELING the
      > > presence of occultism emmanating from the neighboring turn of the
      > > century, upper middle class homes at the edge of the cliff. This
      > > experience remained with me, as a simple matter of fact, having
      > caused
      > > no conflicting emotions to arise in me, either now or in my child
      > > condition.
      > >
      > > I also wonder about it.
      > >
      > > These types of experiences, Steve, are a part of life. They confirm
      > the
      > > Heaven's presence in human experience. They confirm that spiritual
      > > occultism is real. And, I guess these experiences serve to move a
      > > certain amount of souls onto their PRIMARY purpose; their far
      > reaching
      > > spritual development purpose.
      > >
      > > Carol.
      >
      >
      > So were your two children the product of an experiment? Or just
      > accidents, or what? Mine were the product of a life-bonding
      > committment, and maybe that's what I'm not understanding about you.
      > I never intended to get married until I was twenty-nine years old,
      > but then circumstances changed. Did you have circumstances, or just
      > experiments and/or accidents?
      >
      > Steve
      >
    • Stephen Hale
      ... forces ... had ... the ... In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple s soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the
      Message 111 of 111 , Sep 6, 2008


        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
        >
        > I still find that `psychic life` development implies engaging the forces
        > of the inner soul towards astral/devachanic inner
        > perception/clairvoyance. A condition of sleep implies astral
        > experience.
        >
        > The second stream, requires an extroverted application. Experience is
        > drawn outward- to face the world, all things manifest, to witness form
        > and then further on, the `geometric` principal of astral determination
        > . To view the workings of the living world is first and foremost to
        > witness etheric forces furnishing mobility and multiplicity of form.
        > Pride suggests a meeting with the outside manifest world. The pupil had
        > at first, to disregard his inner `astral' experience in order
        > to more solidly greet the manifest world- which is why I associated the
        > body/etheric to this latter type of initiation
        .
        >
        > I see that there are different ways of looking at it- or would it be
        > more correct to say- there`s a paradox to this.

        In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple's soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the events of the cosmos and raise himself to the soul-spiritual essence permeating the universe. His experience differed markedly from ordinary contemplation of nature because he felt he lived within the very soul of the universe. In not a bad but a good sense, he was beside himself. He was, though one hesitates to use this word because it has taken on an unpleasant connotation, in ecstasy. Upon achieving this union with the cosmos he could say to himself that through living in the universe and through experiencing its most intimate soul-spiritual forces, he had come to realize that everywhere the final goal of the cosmos is the creation of man. Did man not exist, the whole creation could not fulfill its end, because he was the meaning of the cosmos.

        Carol, it is not possible to remove the Etheric Body from the physical body without death occurring immediately.  Therefore, for this reason alone the second type of ancient mystery stream concerns the Astral Body.  Consider all that the lecture:  The Work of the Angels in Man's Astral Body gives as a point of further reference for what now takes place in the state of dreamless sleep.   Dream sleep involves the etheric body and its close union with the physical body. 

        During sleeping we interact with the spiritual worlds when the astral-ego organization leaves the etheric-physical organization and engages its spiritual communion in the astral and higher devachanic realms.  The ego, as such in our present development, is a silent witness to the work of the astral body in receiving the impressions of the angelic hierarchies, which are then carried down into the etheric body.  Dreaming is an etheric activity conducted in middle devachan by the astral body, in which our past lives are traveled through and mixed in with the recent physical body experiences of the present life.  Chaos is the general order of the dream experience, which is countered by the objectively ordered pictures of the waking conscious (relative) experience.  Waking up from a dream is felt entirely in the etheric body as a present-moment experience of consciousness.  As soon as the outer world is detected this consciousness sinks down into the subconscious and the dream is forgotten in favor of relative waking consciousness. 

        Practice can allow one to develop the ability to remain within the present-moment consciousness when first awakening as a meditative exercise.  Spiritual science cultivates this desire to remain within the fold of the waking dream experience wherein many truths of independently investigated subjects are intuited and further inspired into imaginative content.

        But as soon as the eyes and ears turn to the sense world, a buffer is created between the environment and the previously felt inner domain, and that which had just been on the surface sinks down into the famed "subconsciousness" of Freud. 

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