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Re: A Moral Reckoning

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  • carol
    S: In reality, I don t think you have any right whatsoever to speak of my life or its substance. To do so only leads to the shallow comments you ve made. And
    Message 1 of 111 , Aug 1, 2008
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      S: "In reality, I don't think you have any right whatsoever to speak of
      my life or its substance. To do so only leads to the shallow comments
      you've made. And I don't care. That's the risk I take."

      -"Now, I want to ask you something very important concerning this
      experience at eight years old by yours truly."

      Now Steve, using the clearest form of analytic rational which
      caracterizes our current epoch, the one of which the consciousness soul
      is to employ for it's furtherance, DO you SEE a contradiction in what
      was written by YOU in this present post?

      Steve, are you asking for my input, or not?

      S: "I could certainly try to make sense of what you're trying to say
      about yourself, but I have no idea of what it means to have a child at
      twenty-two and another at twenty-five, and a christian friend with a
      muslim father at twenty-two, which causes you to go home, yet have two
      muslim children yourself. That must be the difference between you and
      me."

      Wew, Steve, was your mind initially subject to murkiness before even
      considering the personal details which I shared with you?

      Let me present it again, but this time, please read it SLOWLY. My first
      son was born to me only 3 months into my 19th year. My metamorphosis
      occured at the age of 22. That which 'triggered' it was a brief
      friendship with a pregant neihbor who was MARRIED to a Muslim Arab. SHE,
      at the time, though visibly Christian in countenance, was 'practicing'
      Islam. At age 25, I once again, became pregnant and gave birth at age 26
      to an Arab child. Thus, I have 1 son of eastern European descent, (my
      philosophical 'son') and 1 of Arab descent (my extraverted 'cosmically
      oriented' son).

      Is this now clear?

      Again, when I was then a young mother to two children, I impressed upon
      certain people of being in some way 'Jewish'. (I understand that this
      info might confuse you).


      S: "Here's the difference: I can make myself as plain as day in terms of
      my life and its progression."

      Through constructing this sentence, was this your 'outer' soul's attempt
      to 'put me in the dog house' while you assured for yourself societal
      approval?

      -"You, on the other hand, are murky in my eyes. You make very little
      sense, although my heart reaches out to you. This probably comes as a
      surprise from a guy; but please remember, I've been married for
      thirty-five years and raised three children to adulthood."

      HERE is yet another example of STEVE using his 'outer' self as opposed
      to his 'theosophic' self in a dialogue adressed with an Anthroposophist.
      The 'murkiness' which 'clouds' your mind's eye, IS something to take
      note of, Steve.

      THIS MURKINESS disappears as your consciousness soul develops increased,
      heightened ability to decipher and understand spiritual variables to
      human life. And, may I add, that seeing as these variables can be seen
      to count 'in infinitum', you may understand the need for a slow,
      methodical and sure pace in the spiritual investagator.

      Through the soul's own efforts, spiritual clarity is achieved.

      S; "And eleven years ago my entire family suffered a devastating blow
      when my wife suffered a severe stroke (CVA) that came as a complete
      shock to all of us. Since then, she has been paralyzed on her right side
      and went through many months of rehabilitation in order to get back to a
      relatively normal degree of health, and happy life"

      It would seem that such an impressive event may have, in one way, served
      your familly to 'distance itself' from a head on influence stemming from
      the machinations of economic life- because of karmic conditions which
      called for a strong focuss on the intimate human side of things.

      S: ". I only say this because your previous post struck my heart with
      its message, and didn't say one derogatory thing about me."

      You know Steve, I've been careful NOT to judge you using standards found
      in outward society. For some weeks now, I've been forming a 'sympathy'
      towards your soul because of certain details which I have since become
      cognisant of. You see Steve, in spite of my inherent clumsiness, MY soul
      remains attentive to spiritual LESSONS.

      S: "This post, of course, is another matter, wherein you go right back
      to your typically pompous and snobby judgmental attitude. And I agree,
      let's leave the french folk soul out of consideration!"

      Impatience and anger? J-M alluded to the fact that this could be a sign
      of exessive egoism still lingering towards the outer edges of the
      personality/ the outer self.

      S: "It's just you, Carol, in all your essence, that HAS to talk in this
      manner. And I understand that. I've come to realize that *that* is just
      YOU. You are who you are, plain and simple."

      Merci, ... très gentil de ta part.

      I really don't like when individuals impose the force of their Wills in
      my direction, in order to divert my perception to more materialistic
      considerations. I DO put up a battle, either by total avoidance of the
      individual or by supplicating them to engage 'heart forces'. Sometimes,
      it happens that my angelic being 'nudges' me to stay on, in spite of the
      difficulties it ensues towards my psycho/spiritual experience.


      S: "Now, I want to ask you something very important concerning this
      experience at eight years old by yours truly. Also, I will extend this
      question to Jean-Marc. The reason for describing this experience
      concerned the fact that it led to something else. Do you remember? I
      said that the experience of extremely felt soul-pain led to a kind of
      resolution, although it was not understood at the time, nor lessened the
      grief it seemed. I realize now that *that* is exactly what is meant to
      happen in these types of situations. And I can, and did, liken it to a
      fundamentally important moment in time."

      Steve, I can't say that I really identify with your individual
      interpretation of these events. My reading into it is that first, the
      Higher Realms set up certain events in your life which would prove so
      impressive that they could be retrieved quite easily, later in life when
      the time was right. You must realize Steve, that materialism is
      EXTREMELY dense, and that this density literally locks the inner soul
      away from the outer soul. If Steve is a soul who has to go through the
      process of 'recaping' antecendent biographical spiritual development,
      then certain 'key' events have to be set in place to trigger this
      process. Thus, these events serve to 'slice through' as it were, the
      density of materialism which enrobed your outer self and then
      subsequently and effectively get YOU, Steve, back on track to spiritual
      development. (in an organic, living sense).

      S: "When Jesus looked down from the Cross upon which He was strung and
      stigmatized in pain, He saw His Mother standing next to Her sister,
      named Mary, who was standing next to Mary Magdalene, and in a stroke of
      wisdom said: Mother, here is your son, and son here is your mother. And
      from that moment the disciple whom the Lord loved took Her into his
      household.

      And thus was created Saint John The Evangelist. A tri-formed spiritual
      being comprised of John the Baptist, Lazarus, and the Holy Mother of
      Jesus of Nazareth."

      I find that this is Steve's usage of external Biblical 'data' to
      'stablelize' his soul moving experiences. I understand that spiritual
      experience is overwhelming and very very tough, thorough and tricky, so
      I do alot sympathy to the one who uses Biblical concepts in order to
      stablelize themselves. I myself have done just this, in the far distant
      past.

      S: "Little Steve only felt himself transported back in time a short ways
      to where the locomotives took people places before there were cars. He
      felt himself in another place and time for about two hours; and still
      wonders about it, and what it means. The only part he really knows is
      that he has lived before. This was his security."

      I remember playing on my own, totally alone, at a small adult park on
      the edge of the Niagara Escarpement, waiting for my siblings to return
      from the local variety store (popsicles or candy), and FEELING the
      presence of occultism emmanating from the neighboring turn of the
      century, upper middle class homes at the edge of the cliff. This
      experience remained with me, as a simple matter of fact, having caused
      no conflicting emotions to arise in me, either now or in my child
      condition.

      I also wonder about it.

      These types of experiences, Steve, are a part of life. They confirm the
      Heaven's presence in human experience. They confirm that spiritual
      occultism is real. And, I guess these experiences serve to move a
      certain amount of souls onto their PRIMARY purpose; their far reaching
      spritual development purpose.

      Carol.




      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Steve: "We all need to be honest with ourselves, and Steve's
      > experience
      > > with his father, which sounds so extremely pathetic and whining in
      > > nature that it certainly has to taint any further progress in a life
      > > that somehow found its way to anthroposophy, certainly must be
      > cause for
      > > suspicion."
      > >
      > > I personally didn't find a child's sudden experience of abandonment,
      > > suspicious nor terribly uncommon- it occurs in well to do
      > materialistic
      > > and non materialistic families as well. I myself, experienced an
      > > 'angelic' reassurance of worth at the age of 25 while pregnant with
      > my
      > > second child. Again, I see nothing suspicious in your having
      > verbalized
      > > something similar this experience. However, when these experiences
      > are
      > > then placed on par with Judith von Hale's current one, I find it a
      > > little pretentious and somewhat naive. I realize that you didn't do
      > > this, this time, but have so in the past. As well, in your
      > recognition
      > > of having had some of the 'initiation' experiences which Steiner had
      > > cited , I find that you neglect to notice the areas which you still
      > to
      > > this day have difficulty with- namely, a freedom and detachment
      > from of
      > > the geographic/national conditions of your birthplace. The fact that
      > > you, on occasion, persist in trivializing and 'mocking' the folk
      > soul
      > > influences which other people illustrate through their writtings,
      > shows
      > > an area in which you, as an individual Anthro, need to continue to
      > > develop . This, I humbly state, without in any way wishing to place
      > > myself over and above anyone.
      > >
      > > Steve: "I can see this myself from a nominalistic position, which I
      > am
      > > forced to subscribe to in our rather overtly mechanistic-
      > materialistic
      > > world perspective today. But why do I have to hear it from you and
      > > Jean-Marc, in this special place for spiritual science?"
      > >
      > > Funny, I don't think Jean-Marc, nor I find that our discussion
      > treated
      > > the substance of your life in an overtly superficial manner. I
      > wonder
      > > the following: what are you REALLY stating through this sentence
      > Steve?
      > > Case closed- I don't want to 'investigate' further. period. Sweep
      > it up,
      > > lift the rug, and it's gone from sight and mind?
      > >
      > > Is that spiritual science as well?
      > >
      > > Carol
      >
      > In reality, I don't think you have any right whatsoever to speak of
      > my life or its substance. To do so only leads to the shallow
      > comments you've made. And I don't care. That's the risk I take.
      >
      > I could certainly try to make sense of what you're trying to say
      > about yourself, but I have no idea of what it means to have a child
      > at twenty-two and another at twenty-five, and a christian friend with
      > a muslim father at twenty-two, which causes you to go home, yet have
      > two muslim children yourself. That must be the difference between
      > you and me.
      >
      > Here's the difference: I can make myself as plain as day in terms of
      > my life and its progression. You, on the other hand, are murky in my
      > eyes. You make very little sense, although my heart reaches out to
      > you. This probably comes as a surprise from a guy; but please
      > remember, I've been married for thirty-five years and raised three
      > children to adulthood. And eleven years ago my entire family
      > suffered a devastating blow when my wife suffered a severe stroke
      > (CVA) that came as a complete shock to all of us. Since then, she
      > has been paralyzed on her right side and went through many months of
      > rehabilitation in order to get back to a relatively normal degree of
      > health, and happy life. I only say this because your previous post
      > struck my heart with its message, and didn't say one derogatory thing
      > about me.
      >
      > This post, of course, is another matter, wherein you go right back to
      > your typically pompous and snobby judgmental attitude. And I agree,
      > let's leave the french folk soul out of consideration!
      >
      > It's just you, Carol, in all your essence, that HAS to talk in this
      > manner. And I understand that. I've come to realize that *that* is
      > just YOU. You are who you are, plain and simple.
      >
      > Now, I want to ask you something very important concerning this
      > experience at eight years old by yours truly. Also, I will extend
      > this question to Jean-Marc. The reason for describing this
      > experience concerned the fact that it led to something else. Do you
      > remember? I said that the experience of extremely felt soul-pain led
      > to a kind of resolution, although it was not understood at the time,
      > nor lessened the grief it seemed. I realize now that *that* is
      > exactly what is meant to happen in these types of situations. And I
      > can, and did, liken it to a fundamentally important moment in time.
      >
      > When Jesus looked down from the Cross upon which He was strung and
      > stigmatized in pain, He saw His Mother standing next to Her sister,
      > named Mary, who was standing next to Mary Magdalene, and in a stroke
      > of wisdom said: Mother, here is your son, and son here is your
      > mother. And from that moment the disciple whom the Lord loved took
      > Her into his household.
      >
      > And thus was created Saint John The Evangelist. A tri-formed
      > spiritual being comprised of John the Baptist, Lazarus, and the Holy
      > Mother of Jesus of Nazareth.
      >
      > Little Steve only felt himself transported back in time a short ways
      > to where the locomotives took people places before there were cars.
      > He felt himself in another place and time for about two hours; and
      > still wonders about it, and what it means. The only part he really
      > knows is that he has lived before. This was his security.
      >
    • Stephen Hale
      ... forces ... had ... the ... In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple s soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the
      Message 111 of 111 , Sep 6 1:34 PM
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        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
        >
        > I still find that `psychic life` development implies engaging the forces
        > of the inner soul towards astral/devachanic inner
        > perception/clairvoyance. A condition of sleep implies astral
        > experience.
        >
        > The second stream, requires an extroverted application. Experience is
        > drawn outward- to face the world, all things manifest, to witness form
        > and then further on, the `geometric` principal of astral determination
        > . To view the workings of the living world is first and foremost to
        > witness etheric forces furnishing mobility and multiplicity of form.
        > Pride suggests a meeting with the outside manifest world. The pupil had
        > at first, to disregard his inner `astral' experience in order
        > to more solidly greet the manifest world- which is why I associated the
        > body/etheric to this latter type of initiation
        .
        >
        > I see that there are different ways of looking at it- or would it be
        > more correct to say- there`s a paradox to this.

        In this [second] kind of initiation the disciple's soul was drawn out of his inner being, whereby he could participate in the events of the cosmos and raise himself to the soul-spiritual essence permeating the universe. His experience differed markedly from ordinary contemplation of nature because he felt he lived within the very soul of the universe. In not a bad but a good sense, he was beside himself. He was, though one hesitates to use this word because it has taken on an unpleasant connotation, in ecstasy. Upon achieving this union with the cosmos he could say to himself that through living in the universe and through experiencing its most intimate soul-spiritual forces, he had come to realize that everywhere the final goal of the cosmos is the creation of man. Did man not exist, the whole creation could not fulfill its end, because he was the meaning of the cosmos.

        Carol, it is not possible to remove the Etheric Body from the physical body without death occurring immediately.  Therefore, for this reason alone the second type of ancient mystery stream concerns the Astral Body.  Consider all that the lecture:  The Work of the Angels in Man's Astral Body gives as a point of further reference for what now takes place in the state of dreamless sleep.   Dream sleep involves the etheric body and its close union with the physical body. 

        During sleeping we interact with the spiritual worlds when the astral-ego organization leaves the etheric-physical organization and engages its spiritual communion in the astral and higher devachanic realms.  The ego, as such in our present development, is a silent witness to the work of the astral body in receiving the impressions of the angelic hierarchies, which are then carried down into the etheric body.  Dreaming is an etheric activity conducted in middle devachan by the astral body, in which our past lives are traveled through and mixed in with the recent physical body experiences of the present life.  Chaos is the general order of the dream experience, which is countered by the objectively ordered pictures of the waking conscious (relative) experience.  Waking up from a dream is felt entirely in the etheric body as a present-moment experience of consciousness.  As soon as the outer world is detected this consciousness sinks down into the subconscious and the dream is forgotten in favor of relative waking consciousness. 

        Practice can allow one to develop the ability to remain within the present-moment consciousness when first awakening as a meditative exercise.  Spiritual science cultivates this desire to remain within the fold of the waking dream experience wherein many truths of independently investigated subjects are intuited and further inspired into imaginative content.

        But as soon as the eyes and ears turn to the sense world, a buffer is created between the environment and the previously felt inner domain, and that which had just been on the surface sinks down into the famed "subconsciousness" of Freud. 

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