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Re: [anthroposophy] The "Mahatma" issue:

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  • jla
    Arthur, From the looks of it, this seems to follow the general description of Steiner s research (and others views) of TS and the Indo-Tibetan esoteric
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 21, 2000
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      Arthur,

      From the looks of it, this seems to follow the general description of Steiner's research (and others views) of TS and the
      Indo-Tibetan esoteric intentions. It is dealt with more subtly in Occult Movements of 19th Century by Steiner and by C.G. Harrision's the Transcendental Universe. Harrison, by the way, came to his insights and occult research independently.

      I have reservations about the political and devious continuation of this pact as described. It sounds interesting but how can it be substantiated?
      Though I am not a pollyanna by any means, I find it hard to believe a few "Adepts" from the East can turn the tide of nations and history so easily. On the other hand, it this battle is as intense and entrenched as indicated, woe to us. The Gods and Western Adepts are losing ground and it seems they are assuming a rather passive role in all of this.

      The greater question the might arise for some, and this is important for communications such ideas to newcomers or critics, is how can all this be true? This battle between the Sons and Daughters of "Light and Darkness" has taken on very nefarious turns and it looks like Gods are not empowered or the greater plan is faulty (heresy, I know).

      How can a group of renegades, Lucifer, Ahriman, and the Auras (along with these Mahatmas) be allowed to continue their work by decree of the Gods and manipulate creation and the future evolution of countless beings???

      Something is not right in this picture, as the saying goes?

      jeff auen

      arthra999@... wrote:

      Dear friends:

      I wanted to ask if the following is a fair summary of the
      Anthroposophic  view of  the "Mahatmas" as it appears to be a
      summary of perhaps more detailed material by Rudolf Steiner or
      another writer.  My interest in this is having been in contact for
      some time with members of the TS and Agni Yoga Society, I
      have raised this issue with them and felt it would be helpful to
      see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.

      Arthur Gregory

      The following is an excerpt from the Steiner archives and seems
      to be a summary of  the Mahatma issue:
       
       

      Blavatsky traveled to India and a secret location in Tibet to be
      initiated into these teachings. The "mahatmas" aimed to get a
      kind of revenge on the Western world for having overwhelmed
      the East and suppressed Eastern occultism. We have
      Blavatsky's (hearsay) testimony that at least one of her
      "mahatmas" even hated and despised the white race. On a
      deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and Ahriman to
      draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism as
      the "Eighth Sphere". This realm lies outside of the normal seven
      great ages of the Saturn-Vulcan series. It arose through Lucifer's
      introduction, into the Earth Age, of the supersensible Old Moon
      forces, containing reflected images of higher worlds. Ahriman
      tries to take earthly, dense matter and join it to these images to
      create "densified imaginations" or "spectres". Materialistic
      thoughts in human brains, especially the "occult materialism"
      taught by the "mahatmas", greatly furthers this process. If human
      evolution could be diverted into this Eighth Sphere, the Gods'
      plan for earthly and human evolution would be defeated.

      Later, after Madam Blavatsky's death, the Theosophical Society,
      under Annie Besant, tried to put forth the young Krishnamurti as
      the Christ, or Maitreya, or both. Krishnamurti was prepared over
      a number of years, going through some "initiations", but later lost
      faith in his putative mission, at least in part because his ailing
      brother died despite the assurances of the "Masters" that he
      would recover. As is well known, Krishnamurti later disavowed
      his nomination, and the whole undertaking collapsed. (This
      affair also led to the departure of Steiner from the Theosophical
      Society--- wherein he had been the Secretary of the German
      Section---and subsequently to the founding of the
      Anthroposophical Society.) Helena Roerich (and her husband,
      the painter Nicholas Roerich) came into the picture in the 1920's.
      Helena Roerich started receiving telepathic dictations from a
      "mahatma", and she began to write these inspirations in her
      multi-volume work Agni Yoga. Then began a series of journeys,
      the most amazing of which (1925-28) was an expedition which,
      under the American flag, crossed India, Tibet, Mongolia, and the
      new Soviet Union. Incredibly, they traveled to Moscow---with aid
      of the OGPU (later called the "KGB")---to meet with high
      Bolshevik commissars, and to deliver a letter from the
      "mahatmas", along with some Tibetan soil for the grave of "our
      brother Mahatma Lenin". For the "mahatmas" were indeed
      cooperating with Anglo-American secret societies in promoting
      the "socialist experiment" in Russia. The emissaries of the
      "mahatmas" had even met with Marx in London, and with Lenin
      in Switzerland. Though the Anglo-Americans and Indo-Tibetans
      oppose each other in some ways (the Indo-Tibetans opposed
      British rule in India), they were united, for somewhat differing
      motives, in supporting the Bolshevist war against the Russian
      people and culture. For the destiny of the Slavic East is to create
      an humane, Christ- inspired society in the Sixth Cultural Epoch;
      both these occult groups wish to divert this destiny into other
      paths---even by the destruction of human civilization---which
      would have been the result of Bolshevism, had it succeeded.
      (Today, after the "fall of communism", Russia, and much of
      Eastern Europe, lie prostrate, both physically and morally.
      Russia is grievously wounded, but not yet dead; she might yet
      rise to her destiny, if "free market reforms" and other destructive
      Western influences don't kill her.) It even turns out that the Indo-
      Tibetans were behind the depredations of the "Mongol Hordes"
      of Genghis Khan and his successors, who devastated and
      enslaved almost all of Russia.---And even today the supporters
      of "Agni Yoga" are active in Russia; Mikhail Gorbachev is among
      them.---The hidden Tibetan "mahatmas'" headquarters visited by
      the Roerich expedition was the same as was visited by H.
      Blavatsky. This is the "earthly Shamballa", whose high ruler,
      according to H. Roerich, is the "Maitreya". (The true "Shamballa"
      is an Eastern term for the soul-spirit world which as lost to
      ordinary human perception with the decline of atavistic
      clairvoyance. The "return of Shamballa" refers to the coming
      recovery of this perception with the new, higher clairvoyance.)

      And it is this same "Shamballa" and these same "mahatmas"
      who inspired Alice Bailey, and her organizations, the "Servants of
      the World" and the "Secret School" (Schola Arcana). Creme's
      group uses the same prayer, now called the "Transmission
      Meditation", given in Bailey's The Reappearance of Christ. And,
      of course, Bailey's "Christ" who will "reappear" is none other that
      this so-called "Maitreya".
       
       


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    • arthra999@yahoo.com
      Thank you very much Jeff... I will see if I can look into the sources you mentioned... My own tact is to disregard shadowy mahatmas en toto. I don t mind
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 22, 2000
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        Thank you very much Jeff...

        I will see if I can look into the sources you mentioned... My own
        tact is to disregard shadowy mahatmas en toto. I don't mind
        considering the work of incarnate Indian philosophers and such
        but i get this feeling of revulsion for the semi quasi mahatmas
        that is pretty strong. Ever since i attended a seance once and
        was aware of the pettiness of it all. Who knows but some dark
        force was at work.

        While I have admired Steiner's writings for some time, it is not
        until recently I have hasd the time to delve into them more.

        Again, Thank you.

        - Art




        --- In anthroposophy@egroups.com, jla <pacbay@h...> wrote:
        > Arthur,
        >
        > From the looks of it, this seems to follow the general
        description of
        > Steiner's research (and others views) of TS and the
        > Indo-Tibetan esoteric intentions. It is dealt with more subtly in
        Occult
        > Movements of 19th Century by Steiner and by C.G. Harrision's
        the
        > Transcendental Universe. Harrison, by the way, came to his
        insights and
        > occult research independently.
        >
        > I have reservations about the political and devious continuation
        of this
        > pact as described. It sounds interesting but how can it be
        > substantiated?
        > Though I am not a pollyanna by any means, I find it hard to
        believe a
        > few "Adepts" from the East can turn the tide of nations and
        history so
        > easily. On the other hand, it this battle is as intense and
        entrenched
        > as indicated, woe to us. The Gods and Western Adepts are
        losing ground
        > and it seems they are assuming a rather passive role in all of
        this.
        >
        > The greater question the might arise for some, and this is
        important for
        > communications such ideas to newcomers or critics, is how
        can all this
        > be true? This battle between the Sons and Daughters of "Light
        and
        > Darkness" has taken on very nefarious turns and it looks like
        Gods are
        > not empowered or the greater plan is faulty (heresy, I know).
        >
        > How can a group of renegades, Lucifer, Ahriman, and the
        Auras (along
        > with these Mahatmas) be allowed to continue their work by
        decree of the
        > Gods and manipulate creation and the future evolution of
        countless
        > beings???
        >
        > Something is not right in this picture, as the saying goes?
        >
        > jeff auen
        >
        > arthra999@y... wrote:
        >
        > > Dear friends:
        > >
        > > I wanted to ask if the following is a fair summary of the
        > > Anthroposophic view of the "Mahatmas" as it appears to be
        a
        > > summary of perhaps more detailed material by Rudolf
        Steiner or
        > > another writer. My interest in this is having been in contact for
        > > some time with members of the TS and Agni Yoga Society, I
        > > have raised this issue with them and felt it would be helpful
        to
        > > see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.
        > >
        > > Arthur Gregory
        > >
        > > The following is an excerpt from the Steiner archives and
        seems
        > > to be a summary of the Mahatma issue:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Blavatsky traveled to India and a secret location in Tibet to be
        > > initiated into these teachings. The "mahatmas" aimed to get
        a
        > > kind of revenge on the Western world for having
        overwhelmed
        > > the East and suppressed Eastern occultism. We have
        > > Blavatsky's (hearsay) testimony that at least one of her
        > > "mahatmas" even hated and despised the white race. On a
        > > deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and Ahriman to
        > > draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism
        as
        > > the "Eighth Sphere". This realm lies outside of the normal
        seven
        > > great ages of the Saturn-Vulcan series. It arose through
        Lucifer's
        > > introduction, into the Earth Age, of the supersensible Old
        Moon
        > > forces, containing reflected images of higher worlds.
        Ahriman
        > > tries to take earthly, dense matter and join it to these images
        to
        > > create "densified imaginations" or "spectres". Materialistic
        > > thoughts in human brains, especially the "occult
        materialism"
        > > taught by the "mahatmas", greatly furthers this process. If
        human
        > > evolution could be diverted into this Eighth Sphere, the Gods'
        > > plan for earthly and human evolution would be defeated.
        > >
        > > Later, after Madam Blavatsky's death, the Theosophical
        Society,
        > > under Annie Besant, tried to put forth the young Krishnamurti
        as
        > > the Christ, or Maitreya, or both. Krishnamurti was prepared
        over
        > > a number of years, going through some "initiations", but later
        lost
        > > faith in his putative mission, at least in part because his
        ailing
        > > brother died despite the assurances of the "Masters" that he
        > > would recover. As is well known, Krishnamurti later
        disavowed
        > > his nomination, and the whole undertaking collapsed. (This
        > > affair also led to the departure of Steiner from the
        Theosophical
        > > Society--- wherein he had been the Secretary of the German
        > > Section---and subsequently to the founding of the
        > > Anthroposophical Society.) Helena Roerich (and her
        husband,
        > > the painter Nicholas Roerich) came into the picture in the
        1920's.
        > > Helena Roerich started receiving telepathic dictations from a
        > > "mahatma", and she began to write these inspirations in her
        > > multi-volume work Agni Yoga. Then began a series of
        journeys,
        > > the most amazing of which (1925-28) was an expedition
        which,
        > > under the American flag, crossed India, Tibet, Mongolia, and
        the
        > > new Soviet Union. Incredibly, they traveled to Moscow---with
        aid
        > > of the OGPU (later called the "KGB")---to meet with high
        > > Bolshevik commissars, and to deliver a letter from the
        > > "mahatmas", along with some Tibetan soil for the grave of
        "our
        > > brother Mahatma Lenin". For the "mahatmas" were indeed
        > > cooperating with Anglo-American secret societies in
        promoting
        > > the "socialist experiment" in Russia. The emissaries of the
        > > "mahatmas" had even met with Marx in London, and with
        Lenin
        > > in Switzerland. Though the Anglo-Americans and
        Indo-Tibetans
        > > oppose each other in some ways (the Indo-Tibetans
        opposed
        > > British rule in India), they were united, for somewhat differing
        > > motives, in supporting the Bolshevist war against the
        Russian
        > > people and culture. For the destiny of the Slavic East is to
        create
        > > an humane, Christ- inspired society in the Sixth Cultural
        Epoch;
        > > both these occult groups wish to divert this destiny into other
        > > paths---even by the destruction of human civilization---which
        > > would have been the result of Bolshevism, had it succeeded.
        > > (Today, after the "fall of communism", Russia, and much of
        > > Eastern Europe, lie prostrate, both physically and morally.
        > > Russia is grievously wounded, but not yet dead; she might
        yet
        > > rise to her destiny, if "free market reforms" and other
        destructive
        > > Western influences don't kill her.) It even turns out that the
        Indo-
        > > Tibetans were behind the depredations of the "Mongol
        Hordes"
        > > of Genghis Khan and his successors, who devastated and
        > > enslaved almost all of Russia.---And even today the
        supporters
        > > of "Agni Yoga" are active in Russia; Mikhail Gorbachev is
        among
        > > them.---The hidden Tibetan "mahatmas'" headquarters
        visited by
        > > the Roerich expedition was the same as was visited by H.
        > > Blavatsky. This is the "earthly Shamballa", whose high ruler,
        > > according to H. Roerich, is the "Maitreya". (The true
        "Shamballa"
        > > is an Eastern term for the soul-spirit world which as lost to
        > > ordinary human perception with the decline of atavistic
        > > clairvoyance. The "return of Shamballa" refers to the coming
        > > recovery of this perception with the new, higher clairvoyance.)
        > >
        > > And it is this same "Shamballa" and these same
        "mahatmas"
        > > who inspired Alice Bailey, and her organizations, the
        "Servants of
        > > the World" and the "Secret School" (Schola Arcana). Creme's
        > > group uses the same prayer, now called the "Transmission
        > > Meditation", given in Bailey's The Reappearance of Christ.
        And,
        > > of course, Bailey's "Christ" who will "reappear" is none other
        that
        > > this so-called "Maitreya".
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > eGroups Sponsor
        > [click here]
        > >
        > > http://www.egroups.com/group/anthroposophy
        > > Unsubscribe:
        > > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@egroups.com
        > >
      • starmann77@aol.com
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 23, 2000
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          << Dear friends:
          I wanted to ask if the following is a fair summary of the Anthroposophic
          view of the "Mahatmas" as it appears to be a summary of perhaps more
          detailed material by Rudolf Steiner or another writer. My interest in this
          is having been in contact for some time with members of the TS and Agni Yoga
          Society, I have raised this issue with them and felt it would be helpful to
          see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.
          Arthur Gregory
          The following is an excerpt from the Steiner archives and seems to be a
          summary of the Mahatma issue:

          Blavatsky traveled to India and a secret location in Tibet to be
          initiated into these teachings. The "mahatmas" aimed to get a
          kind of revenge on the Western world for having overwhelmed
          the East and suppressed Eastern occultism. We have
          Blavatsky's (hearsay) testimony that at least one of her
          "mahatmas" even hated and despised the white race. On a
          deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and Ahriman to
          draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism as
          the "Eighth Sphere". This realm lies outside of the normal seven
          great ages of the Saturn-Vulcan series. It arose through Lucifer's
          introduction, into the Earth Age, of the supersensible Old Moon
          forces, containing reflected images of higher worlds. Ahriman
          tries to take earthly, dense matter and join it to these images to
          create "densified imaginations" or "spectres". Materialistic
          thoughts in human brains, especially the "occult materialism"
          taught by the "mahatmas", greatly furthers this process. If human
          evolution could be diverted into this Eighth Sphere, the Gods'
          plan for earthly and human evolution would be defeated.
          >>
          *******Well, I certainly don't agree with any of this, which sounds like it
          dates from the time of the split between the TS and the AS. I have never
          heard Steiner give the impression that the White Brotherhood, at least one of
          whose members contacted Blavatsky, was a demonic evil group such as pictured
          here---quite the opposite. Any fault with their teachings was, I think, with
          the medium Blavatsky herself, who was a channel for their knowledge, but who
          memorized all of it and then wrote it in a garbled and distorted form. I
          never once heard Steiner say something as extreme as that Blavatsky's work
          was so bad that it would serve only the powers of evil, as the writer of this
          'summary' states. He regarded the founding of the TS as so important
          historically that he put it in the dates to be remembered in the
          Soul-Calendar (125 years ago last week, in fact), along with Blavatsky's and
          Judge's birthdays. The Doctor spoke often about the lodges of the left-hand
          path: never did he say the TS was one, but diametrically the opposite. Nor
          did the mahatmas give Blavatsky her mission to take revenge on the West, but
          to save it. I'd say whoever wrote the above had quite an axe to grind against
          the TS.

          Dr. Starman
        • starmann77@aol.com
          arthra999@yahoo.com writes:
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 23, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            arthra999@... writes:
            << My own
            tact is to disregard shadowy mahatmas en toto. I don't mind
            considering the work of incarnate Indian philosophers and such
            but i get this feeling of revulsion for the semi quasi mahatmas
            that is pretty strong. Ever since i attended a seance once and
            was aware of the pettiness of it all. Who knows but some dark
            force was at work.>>

            Initiates who leave their physical bodies either on the earth plane or in
            some other plane and project themselves in astral form to students are not at
            all like mediumistic seance phenomena. The student need not go into trance to
            see or hear them: in fact, a heightened condition of consciousness is usally
            required.

            Although the astral plane is the medium for both the lower and the higher
            manifestations, well, ministers and burglars may both come to your house by
            the same street, but that doesn't make them alike.

            It's all right to feel revulsion at the phony 'mahatma' apparitions that
            Blavatsky cooked up in her later days, for sure. Ditto with mediums dredging
            up sludge like Seth and such. But if Babaji ever appears to you, it won't
            feel creepy.

            Dr. Starman
          • 888
            Dear Arthur, If you want to investigate further I suggest you get your hands on a few articles published in the Theosophical History magazine in 1986. You
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 23, 2000
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              Dear Arthur,
              If you want to investigate further I suggest you get your hands on a few
              articles published in the Theosophical History magazine in 1986. You
              should be able to get them at a TS library. They are "RS on the
              Mahatmas" and "RS on HPB." If you check Jeff's rosicruciansophia
              archive @ egroups you'll see I've said more.

              RS believed that the Mahatmas were real, and said himself that he was
              attached to them. He says that the real K.H. was replaced with a false
              Mahatma KH in about 1874, and that HPB didn't twig. He also talks about
              HPB's occult imprisonment.

              All sorts of folk were vying for control of HPB. She was the sandwich in
              the middle. Early on, RS says that Master CR was an influence on her-
              parts of Isis had his influence, I think.


              TS history:
              http://www2.ios.com/~pdeveney/cumcont.html

              On the Ben Creme and Bailey "Maitreya" issue:
              http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/ahriman.htm

              >summary of perhaps more detailed material by Rudolf Steiner or
              >another writer.

              The other writer is probably Sergei O. Prokovieff:
              The Spiritual Origins of Eastern Europe and the Future Mysteries of
              The Holy Grail

              >My interest in this is having been in contact for
              >some time with members of the TS and Agni Yoga Society, I
              >have raised this issue with them and felt it would be helpful to
              >see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.

              There is no official "position". We can only quote from authors various.
              Not everyone will agree, as you can see by reading the mailing lists.

              Tomberg also spoke about the Roerichs- he was Russian too, like
              Prokovieff. Prokovieff also criticizes Tomberg BTW.

              I'm a strong believer in fraternisation between the various TS orgs and
              the Anthroposophical Society.
              RS believed there was no such thing as a _Christian_ Theosophy or a
              _Buddhist_ Theosophy etc.

              The two books mentioned by Jeff are worth a read. Regrettably, there are
              some mistakes in Steiner's book/lectures on this issue viz. Olcott's
              book doesnt tell us that KH was the sea pirate Henry Morgan. The
              mysterious figure of John King plays a part in the Mahatma scandal as
              well.


              > On a deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and Ahriman to
              >draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism as
              >the "Eighth Sphere".

              I don't believe this is Steiner. HPB corrects Sinnett's doctrine on the
              8th sphere, and then Steiner corrects HPB's theory- see "Occult
              Movements...."

              Dr. Steiner made a good number of positive statements about HPB. I don't
              think he would have talked about the Roerichs- they came after.

              Steiner does say that at one time HPB was made to believe that Lucifer
              is the true benefactor of mankind.

              >Later, after Madam Blavatsky's death, the Theosophical Society,
              >under Annie Besant, tried to put forth the young Krishnamurti as
              >the Christ, or Maitreya, or both.

              Well, Leadbeater had other candidates before he settled on K.

              >This affair also led to the departure of Steiner from the Theosophical
              >Society---

              Besant cancelled the charter, but her hand was forced.

              >Helena Roerich (and her husband,
              >the painter Nicholas Roerich) came into the picture in the 1920's.
              >Helena Roerich started receiving telepathic dictations from a
              >"mahatma",

              The Agni Yoga work is interesting/good in parts, but it is very bits and
              piecey.
              This information (and what follows) appears to be from Prokovieff.

              >-And even today the supporters
              >of "Agni Yoga" are active in Russia; Mikhail Gorbachev is among
              >them.---

              Agni Yoga is strongly opposed by the Russian Orthodox Church as well.
              The Russians had the choice in their search for the spirit, to turn
              towards the East: Ex Orient Lux - to be Eurasian - or the Christian
              West.
              Tomberg speaks about this battle.

              This is the major difference between Anthroposophy and the other TS and
              related orgs: In Anthroposophy, Christ is not an Avatar- He was only to
              incarnate the once. Christ Jesus is not the simple man/teacher of
              Nazareth, or a myth. In the Mystery of Golgotha we have the "turning
              point in time" when the Word was made flesh and "dwelt among us".

              In TS lore, the Christ is confused with the Maitreya Bodhisattva (Jesu
              ben Pandira), who according to RS (and history) lived 100 years before
              Jesus of Nazareth.

              The great Masters working in the West are Christian Rosencreutz and the
              Master Jesus (who is not Christ BTW.)

              The Eastern Masters are Morya and Kuth Hoomi. (All according to RS.)


              >The hidden Tibetan "mahatmas'" headquarters visited by
              >the Roerich expedition was the same as was visited by H.
              >Blavatsky.

              Who knows?

              >This is the "earthly Shamballa", whose high ruler,
              >according to H. Roerich, is the "Maitreya". \

              Steiner also talks about Shamballa- in relation to Christ though.

              If Dr. Steiner felt so badly about the TS why did he spend a dozen or so
              of the best years of his life working so hard within it?

              Fraternally ;0)
              Bruce
            • arthra999@yahoo.com
              Thanks Bruce! This is really a vast field and I feel like one of the blind men feeling my way around the elephant and stepping in some occasional ooze. It s
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 24, 2000
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                Thanks Bruce!

                This is really a vast field and I feel like one of the blind men
                feeling my way around the elephant and stepping in some
                occasional ooze.

                It's interesting to see the various perspectives. Like you I do feel
                there can be or should be better relations between theosophists
                regardless of the particular group.

                As I mentioned earlier I'm something of a skeptic on a lot of this
                material and particularly resent deception and slight of hand and
                mediumistic spiritism.

                It's apparent that a lot of the material on the so-called "masters"
                is also political in nature.

                - Art




                --- In anthroposophy@egroups.com, "888" <bhive@a...> wrote:
                > Dear Arthur,
                > If you want to investigate further I suggest you get your hands
                on a few
                > articles published in the Theosophical History magazine in
                1986. You
                > should be able to get them at a TS library. They are "RS on the
                > Mahatmas" and "RS on HPB." If you check Jeff's
                rosicruciansophia
                > archive @ egroups you'll see I've said more.
                >
                > RS believed that the Mahatmas were real, and said himself
                that he was
                > attached to them. He says that the real K.H. was replaced with
                a false
                > Mahatma KH in about 1874, and that HPB didn't twig. He also
                talks about
                > HPB's occult imprisonment.
                >
                > All sorts of folk were vying for control of HPB. She was the
                sandwich in
                > the middle. Early on, RS says that Master CR was an influence
                on her-
                > parts of Isis had his influence, I think.
                >
                >
                > TS history:
                > http://www2.ios.com/~pdeveney/cumcont.html
                >
                > On the Ben Creme and Bailey "Maitreya" issue:
                > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/ahriman.htm
                >
                > >summary of perhaps more detailed material by Rudolf
                Steiner or
                > >another writer.
                >
                > The other writer is probably Sergei O. Prokovieff:
                > The Spiritual Origins of Eastern Europe and the Future
                Mysteries of
                > The Holy Grail
                >
                > >My interest in this is having been in contact for
                > >some time with members of the TS and Agni Yoga Society, I
                > >have raised this issue with them and felt it would be helpful to
                > >see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.
                >
                > There is no official "position". We can only quote from authors
                various.
                > Not everyone will agree, as you can see by reading the mailing
                lists.
                >
                > Tomberg also spoke about the Roerichs- he was Russian too,
                like
                > Prokovieff. Prokovieff also criticizes Tomberg BTW.
                >
                > I'm a strong believer in fraternisation between the various TS
                orgs and
                > the Anthroposophical Society.
                > RS believed there was no such thing as a _Christian_
                Theosophy or a
                > _Buddhist_ Theosophy etc.
                >
                > The two books mentioned by Jeff are worth a read. Regrettably,
                there are
                > some mistakes in Steiner's book/lectures on this issue viz.
                Olcott's
                > book doesnt tell us that KH was the sea pirate Henry Morgan.
                The
                > mysterious figure of John King plays a part in the Mahatma
                scandal as
                > well.
                >
                >
                > > On a deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and
                Ahriman to
                > >draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism
                as
                > >the "Eighth Sphere".
                >
                > I don't believe this is Steiner. HPB corrects Sinnett's doctrine
                on the
                > 8th sphere, and then Steiner corrects HPB's theory- see
                "Occult
                > Movements...."
                >
                > Dr. Steiner made a good number of positive statements about
                HPB. I don't
                > think he would have talked about the Roerichs- they came
                after.
                >
                > Steiner does say that at one time HPB was made to believe
                that Lucifer
                > is the true benefactor of mankind.
                >
                > >Later, after Madam Blavatsky's death, the Theosophical
                Society,
                > >under Annie Besant, tried to put forth the young Krishnamurti
                as
                > >the Christ, or Maitreya, or both.
                >
                > Well, Leadbeater had other candidates before he settled on K.
                >
                > >This affair also led to the departure of Steiner from the
                Theosophical
                > >Society---
                >
                > Besant cancelled the charter, but her hand was forced.
                >
                > >Helena Roerich (and her husband,
                > >the painter Nicholas Roerich) came into the picture in the
                1920's.
                > >Helena Roerich started receiving telepathic dictations from a
                > >"mahatma",
                >
                > The Agni Yoga work is interesting/good in parts, but it is very
                bits and
                > piecey.
                > This information (and what follows) appears to be from
                Prokovieff.
                >
                > >-And even today the supporters
                > >of "Agni Yoga" are active in Russia; Mikhail Gorbachev is
                among
                > >them.---
                >
                > Agni Yoga is strongly opposed by the Russian Orthodox
                Church as well.
                > The Russians had the choice in their search for the spirit, to
                turn
                > towards the East: Ex Orient Lux - to be Eurasian - or the
                Christian
                > West.
                > Tomberg speaks about this battle.
                >
                > This is the major difference between Anthroposophy and the
                other TS and
                > related orgs: In Anthroposophy, Christ is not an Avatar- He was
                only to
                > incarnate the once. Christ Jesus is not the simple man/teacher
                of
                > Nazareth, or a myth. In the Mystery of Golgotha we have the
                "turning
                > point in time" when the Word was made flesh and "dwelt
                among us".
                >
                > In TS lore, the Christ is confused with the Maitreya Bodhisattva
                (Jesu
                > ben Pandira), who according to RS (and history) lived 100
                years before
                > Jesus of Nazareth.
                >
                > The great Masters working in the West are Christian
                Rosencreutz and the
                > Master Jesus (who is not Christ BTW.)
                >
                > The Eastern Masters are Morya and Kuth Hoomi. (All according
                to RS.)
                >
                >
                > >The hidden Tibetan "mahatmas'" headquarters visited by
                > >the Roerich expedition was the same as was visited by H.
                > >Blavatsky.
                >
                > Who knows?
                >
                > >This is the "earthly Shamballa", whose high ruler,
                > >according to H. Roerich, is the "Maitreya". \
                >
                > Steiner also talks about Shamballa- in relation to Christ
                though.
                >
                > If Dr. Steiner felt so badly about the TS why did he spend a
                dozen or so
                > of the best years of his life working so hard within it?
                >
                > Fraternally ;0)
                > Bruce
              • jla
                I would tend to agree with Durwood s summary and commentary yet there is a considerable difference between the TS (and its offshoots like theAgni Society)
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 24, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  I would tend to agree with Durwood's summary and commentary yet there is
                  a considerable difference between the TS (and its offshoots like theAgni
                  Society) during and after Steiner's involvement with the movement in
                  general. Its not that he was the litmus test but he was involved in the
                  crucial turnaround period that precipitated controversy. In Occult
                  Movements of the 19th Century and elsewhere, he clarifies, somewhat,
                  what occurred and the errors the Mahatmas made in promoting Spiritualism
                  and pseudo spiritualism via HPB and others in the early stages of TS.
                  The conservative and more cautious Brotherhoods of the West including
                  the Rosicrucians are totally against any form of "downwards spiritual
                  work" e.g.. mediumistic practices, precipitation from the ethers of
                  materials; intrusion into anther's consciousness; the display of psychic
                  powers or siddhas etc. They are trying to promote the rise of
                  consciousness into the spiritual worlds and the transformation of
                  mankind. The "left hand schools" (not necessarily of the negative path)
                  wanted a more accelerated program which would convince intellectuals and
                  scientists of the existence of spiritual and psychics worlds without
                  doubt but also without proper work and preparation. After spiritualism
                  they knew there error and tried to compensate with TS.

                  The Krishmamutri promotion and deliberate deceptions regarding occult
                  history are also a concern. (See Sinnett's Esoteric Buddhism
                  commentaries by Harrison and Steiner). In addition in latter lectures,
                  RS did mention how HPB was anti reincarnation and Christianity but
                  changed her soul about this after dying. Initially, it was said Isis
                  Unveiled was Rosicrucian inspired. She then became under the influence
                  of the Tibetan Schools (due to her strong absorptive soul nature and
                  psychic receptivity) and came out with The Secret Doctrine. After that
                  and perhaps during this time, she was again "wrestled away" by a
                  American brotherhood who psychically enslaved her for their ends and
                  influences. This is how the reference to the "negative left hand path"
                  became associated with TS in general, perhaps.

                  The central issue is: Is Theosophy genuine. As a popular and public path
                  of introduction to esotercism, yes, but only if the doors are open to
                  all sources including Steiner. Was it corrupted? Yes.

                  Is it harmless?. I would say, yes, for the most part since most people
                  read the public materials and cannot handle HPB or deeper esoteric
                  materials. But Leadbeater does present a problem. He was clairvoyant but
                  the accuracy of his work is in question. If his work is relied on
                  without question, then false impressions or interpretations come about
                  in imagination and meditations. In this, The Theosophical Society is
                  problematic and this seems to be the real reason Steiner and others
                  divorced themselves from it. Besides containing deliberate contrary
                  esoteric information about the Christ and Jesus, the attempt to simplify
                  esoteric teaching created over simplification and inaccurate impressions
                  of the initiation and spiritual worlds in general.

                  Jeff

                  starmann77@... wrote:

                  >
                  > << Dear friends:
                  > I wanted to ask if the following is a fair summary of the
                  > Anthroposophic
                  > view of the "Mahatmas" as it appears to be a summary of perhaps more
                  > detailed material by Rudolf Steiner or another writer. My interest in
                  > this
                  > is having been in contact for some time with members of the TS and
                  > Agni Yoga
                  > Society, I have raised this issue with them and felt it would be
                  > helpful to
                  > see if this indeed reflects fairly your position.
                  > Arthur Gregory
                  > The following is an excerpt from the Steiner archives and seems to be
                  > a
                  > summary of the Mahatma issue:
                  >
                  > Blavatsky traveled to India and a secret location in Tibet to be
                  > initiated into these teachings. The "mahatmas" aimed to get a
                  > kind of revenge on the Western world for having overwhelmed
                  > the East and suppressed Eastern occultism. We have
                  > Blavatsky's (hearsay) testimony that at least one of her
                  > "mahatmas" even hated and despised the white race. On a
                  > deeper level, the aim was to work with Lucifer and Ahriman to
                  > draw humanity into the illegitimate realm known to occultism as
                  > the "Eighth Sphere". This realm lies outside of the normal seven
                  > great ages of the Saturn-Vulcan series. It arose through Lucifer's
                  > introduction, into the Earth Age, of the supersensible Old Moon
                  > forces, containing reflected images of higher worlds. Ahriman
                  > tries to take earthly, dense matter and join it to these images to
                  > create "densified imaginations" or "spectres". Materialistic
                  > thoughts in human brains, especially the "occult materialism"
                  > taught by the "mahatmas", greatly furthers this process. If human
                  > evolution could be diverted into this Eighth Sphere, the Gods'
                  > plan for earthly and human evolution would be defeated.
                  > >>
                  > *******Well, I certainly don't agree with any of this, which sounds
                  > like it
                  > dates from the time of the split between the TS and the AS. I have
                  > never
                  > heard Steiner give the impression that the White Brotherhood, at least
                  > one of
                  > whose members contacted Blavatsky, was a demonic evil group such as
                  > pictured
                  > here---quite the opposite. Any fault with their teachings was, I
                  > think, with
                  > the medium Blavatsky herself, who was a channel for their knowledge,
                  > but who
                  > memorized all of it and then wrote it in a garbled and distorted form.
                  > I
                  > never once heard Steiner say something as extreme as that Blavatsky's
                  > work
                  > was so bad that it would serve only the powers of evil, as the writer
                  > of this
                  > 'summary' states. He regarded the founding of the TS as so important
                  > historically that he put it in the dates to be remembered in the
                  > Soul-Calendar (125 years ago last week, in fact), along with
                  > Blavatsky's and
                  > Judge's birthdays. The Doctor spoke often about the lodges of the
                  > left-hand
                  > path: never did he say the TS was one, but diametrically the opposite.
                  > Nor
                  > did the mahatmas give Blavatsky her mission to take revenge on the
                  > West, but
                  > to save it. I'd say whoever wrote the above had quite an axe to grind
                  > against
                  > the TS.
                  >
                  > Dr. Starman
                  >
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