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Re: Schichten Urteilen (was: Kaspar Hauser )

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  • carol
    OK Tom, so you wrote: In the case here of B. Riley vs. J. Wendt, I need to establish the levels where they are equal and where they are not. In my post to
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 3, 2007
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      OK Tom, so you wrote:"In the case here of B. Riley vs. J. Wendt, I need to establish the levels where they are equal and where they are not.

      In my post to Dottie, I was speaking about the SOUL level, doing the SOUL work. At that level, B. Riley is equal to J. Wendt is equal to me, to you, to everyone else. That's the level of equality."

      A bit like in the sense of civil rights? That, on the 'soul' level, we are all equal, the very phenomena of soul experience must conform to a given equal 'meridian'?

      Thus, one thing I see you prove using this theory is that each and every one of us is a living soul, all equal in the eyes of God.

      Beyond that and idealy, not one of US living SOULs, regardless of the amount of effort we put into developing it through living, should not seek to justify a greater worth over and above let's say, our more lazy, or perhaps darker colored contemporary, because after all, we are all subject to one common Godhead and this Godhead requests of ALL SOULS equally, humility.

      This seems to me to represent a SOUL meridian.

      In the following quote of yours (Tom), you assume the right to incorporate EVERY living soul into (in my opinion) a questionable description. May I repeat, EVERY. Not only did you do this, but your description of a given soul affliction can be recognised by SOME as simplistic, quasi spiritual group psychology.

      Tom, are you aware of the dangers of digressing into a common greater GROUP soul experience, where  clatter of materialism is guaranteed to deafen and sheild the SOUL from beholding Spirit in EVERY encounter?

      "All this is to reach the observation that when the Grail motto is followed today, and absorbed into our Spirit of Darkness-inspired Narcissistic personalities with our intensely sensitive, hypervigilant, hyper-self-consciousness, then the compassion is trapped inside, as it must be, for this phase of our evolution. In short, we have become masters of Self-Pity. I would venture to estimate that 99% of what we deem as acts of compassion for others are really acts of feeling sorry for ourselves."

      Perhaps Tom may in the first place be an individual who enjoys thought forces WELL OVER heart forces.

      That would be MY quasi spiritual psychological interpretation.

      Tom wrote: "And Dottie, all this is mean as a sincere tribute to you, because you perceived in me this deeply ingrained self-pity in which I wallow. You recognized it correctly as deriving from my devout Catholic childhood, self-pity alternating with a deep sense of entitlement.

      Tom, I don't go for this interpretation, which I'm guessing is a combination of Dotties' and Yours, though I give Dottie the benefit of beleiving that she is capable of better.

      Again Tom, the following is really my preference.

      "You probably haven't reached the threshold of pain that's needed to be elevated on the mystic Christic path. Your conscious organising faculty likely hasn't been able to identify EVERY 'Christ in me' pain, in an objective enough fashion..."

      (I'm now wondering if you even know what a 'Christ in me' pain is.)

      Tom, pain which torments the body and soul, self pity, brings to my mind some of the writings of St Augustine. (?)

      This is in part, which lay at the 'foot' of MY metamorphosis before discovering Steiner at the youthful age of 23.

      There is also FEELING another's pain....

      At the age of 46, a dental pain 'adventure' occuring during the holiday season allowed me to UNDERSTAND the pain felt by enough Iraqi and Palestianian mothers who must helplessly confort their seriously mutilated and injured children,  themselves forced to sustain incredible pain without adequate medical supplies or facilities.

      This experience latter developed into an understanding of what Michael's wish is of me.

      Also, there is an incident which I read of Rudolf Steiner experiencing- on the SOUL level. On one occasion that he walked down a street and approached a bookstore where books were displayed in the front window, he EXPERIENCED a stinging buzz. (Tom, would this constitute pleasure or pain?) As he reached the store front and gazed at the display, he discovered a situation where Goethe's Faust was being revered with a Mephistopheles quote.

      ...And so finally, my response to your theory, seems to fundamentaly require of me to break from it's form.

      C.

      PS.  If you really needed to know which 'etheric' influences sustained you while in the gestating period,  don't you think 'that which may come to greet' a  fully conscious soul would be a better authority than mediumship?

       

      You mention a keyword up above in your response to Gman. That is

      > "misery." You know the old saying "Misery loves company." Such a
      > saying evokes the Grail motto "Durch Mitleid Wissen" or "Wisdom
      > through compassion."




      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@ wrote:
      >
      > > Tom also wrote:"You have also recognized it in others, namely in Joel
      > > Wendt and in Bradford Riley, these Amfortas wounded warriors, whining in
      > > their maudlin, melodramatic --- but NOT melancholic! --- self-pity,
      > > crying in their respective beers, over the terribly unfair blows of fate
      > > that struck them early on in life. I also notice that this particular
      > > style of "pity partying" is very much a "guy thing."
      > >
      > > Oh please, do couple up B Riley with the other.
      > >
      > > It's funny how you don't see the ' light that envelops' and 'rays out
      > > warmth' from the soul presence which Bradford's writtings convey. Such a
      > > fine, formative wisdom filled mix of Christic and Jewish etheric forces.
      > > (Often enough)
      > >
      > > The other, I dare not call upon his name, is a shallow enough egocentric
      > > Anthro, who's soul socializes with others on pretty much a surface
      > > level. Forget about Wisdom as a living, spiritual force with this guy,
      > > he's full of pedantry.
      > >
      > > (How and why in heaven's name have you placed these two together? I
      > > beleive that Mr. Tom has some Anthro to do.)
      > ======================================================
      >
      > Carol,
      >
      > In my focus on responding to Dottie, I forgot to embed the
      > foundational structure.
      >
      > I've mentioned before, the favorite saying of Rene Querido when faced
      > with paradoxical or contradictory statements and dilemmas. He would
      > say in German "Schichten Urteilen" which literally means "Levels;
      > Judgements"
      >
      > More properly translated, it means: "Make different judgments
      > according to different levels of reality."
      >
      > In the case here of B. Riley vs. J. Wendt, I need to establish the
      > levels where they are equal and where they are not.
      >
      > For this I turn to the incisive anthropophical insights of Valentin
      > Tomberg, who, in one of his Bible study pamplhlets presented the
      > threefold differentiation of not only the human organism but of the
      > social order.
      >
      > Let me do a chart of the three "Schichten"
      >
      > (1) SPIRIT ---THINKING-----Cultural Sphere -----Head/Nervous system
      > (2) SOUL ------FEELING ----- Rights Sphere -----Heart/Lung System
      > (3) BODY------WILLING ------Economic Sphere-----Metabolic/Limb System
      >
      > All the above is directly from Steiner. What Tomberg did was to look
      > at the issue of the Part vs. The Whole
      >
      > At Level (1) The Part is GREATER THAN the Whole
      > At Level (2) The Part is EQUAL TO the Whole
      > At Level (3) The Part is LESS THAN the Whole
      >
      >
      > In my post to Dottie, I was speaking about the SOUL level, doing the
      > SOUL work. At that level, B. Riley is equal to J. Wendt is equal to
      > me, to you, to everyone else. That's the level of equality.
      >
      > On the SPIRIT level, where the Part is greater than the Whole and thus
      > there is no equality, you are correct in judging that B. Riley is a
      > relative "Goethe" as compared to J. Wendt as relative "Hottentot."
      >
      > This whole issue of SOUL work is what I have had to tend to during the
      > last 7 years of my "walkabout," when I was far from the Steiner Internet.
      >
      > Robert Sardello makes a great deal of the fact that by and large
      > anthropops and moms are loathe to do the SOUL work necessary to
      > properly put the SPIRIT in perspective. What happens is that Anthros
      > tend to dive into the SPIRIT pool and think that will automatically
      > take care of the SOUL level. But it doesn't.
      >
      > As an example of my own SOUL work, I'll give you some of the
      > modalities I did in the last 7 years, all outside the SPIRIT realm of
      > anthroposophy.
      >
      > Rebirthing a la Leonard Orr; EFT (Emotional Freedom Therapy) Gary
      > Craig; acupuncture; but best of all the Family Constellation Therapy
      > work of Bert Hellinger.
      >
      > Also great insights from Lloyd deMause who has developed psychohistory.
      >
      > And indeed, in my last conversation with Dennis Klocek a year ago, we
      > spoke about the need to do this soul work within anthroposophy, to
      > experience in the body, the circumstances of not only childhood
      > traumas, but of birth, pre-natal, even back to the time of conception.
      >
      > Steiner took care of the reincarnating soul up to the point of
      > conception but he did not fill in at all the fetal experience and the
      > birth experience that all these regressive therapists work with
      > (Arthur Janov & Primal Therapy; Stan Grof and Holotropic Breathwork, etc.)
      >
      > Hope this clears up your concerns about comparisons.
      >
      > Tom.
      >
    • carol
      Tom, I just so happened to read this lecture this morning as I interested in steeping my soul in little more deeply into the discussion being elaborated in
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 4, 2007
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        Tom, I just so happened to read this lecture this morning as I interested in steeping my soul in little more deeply into the 'discussion' being elaborated in the 'Phanes' thread. This lecture represents one of the references which Steve brought forward.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/14662

        Planetary Spheres and Their Influence on Mans Life on Earth and in the Spiritual Worlds, London, 24th April, 1922

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19220424p02.html

        I thought it might be also prove pertinent to your train of thought within this thread. Notice that it represents a lecture given in the latter part of Steiner's earthly life, to an audience familiar with Anthroposophic truths and perhaps most importantly, delivered to an English speaking people.

        RS: "And now in this present time — so said the earliest Christian initiates —

        it is given to man to behold Christ as One Who walked on Earth in an earthly body, and Who is seen by us in His true form when we behold Him as the Risen One — the Christ Who is in the Earth, and has seen the Mystery of the Earth and can now bring it about that this Mystery shall gradually flow into the evolution of mankind.

        ...the teachings of Paul; for Paul beheld the Radiance, raying inwards from the clouds, of that force which is the Power of the Sun, the super-corporeal Being, the Christ, Who in the Mystery of Golgotha descended to Earth, — the Cosmic Godhead united with the forces of the Sun..."

        Tom, I previously placed great importance on a living experience of Christ, of the one which breaks the barrier of concept based experienced reality and flows over into the 'depth' of physical sensation; a human experience of Christ experienced within one's intimate and immediate physical context. I would now like to add: an experience from which one's karmic orientation can be inspired in a more proper evolutionary direction should one apply oneself toward developing the ability to differentiate when and under which circumstances the 'Christ in me' is offended and PAINED.

        RS: "But now the time has come when it is of the highest importance for man to look back and call up once again in memory the spiritual understanding of Christianity that he had in the first centuries after Christ. Since that time man has gone through a development that has enabled him to attain a wonderful earthly wisdom...By the attainment of earthly wisdom, and by that alone, is man able to become free. In the near future this will, however, have the result that the anti-divine, the anti-Christian forces, will be able to seize hold of the souls of men. These anti-Christian forces, — I call them the Ahrimanic forces.

        For since 1899, the Dark Age — as the, prophets of old called it — is past and over. All around us is the spiritual world, the living spiritual world that can reveal itself to us; we can perceive it and take cognisance of it. And it is for us to listen and hear what the spiritual world is revealing to us."

        You cannot, I think, fail to see that in Cardinal Newman we have a strong personality imbued with a Christianity that is different from the Christianity of his environment. You will understand why he wanted to get away from the intellectual type of Christianity that he found around him, and dreamed of another kind of consciousness such as had been possessed by the first disciples of the Risen Christ, Follow his life further, note the significant words that he uttered at the time of his investiture, when

        he declared that there can be no salvation for religion, unless man receives a new revelation. Ponder it all, and it will grow clear to you that this earnest seeking is born of a deep and powerful longing that had come over from former lives on Earth. The man sensed the presence and impulse of those spiritual forces of which I spoke in the second part of my lecture. He felt — if but dimly — that it might be possible in our day, by undergoing special development, to attain a new initiation knowledge to receive a new revelation, And yet he himself ultimately accepted for his understanding of Christianity — a tradition! I need not tell you whither his search led him; you can read the story for yourselves. He strives to reach through the "gloom" to a "light" that is beyond, but remains all the time within the cloud. A deeper knowledge of his being reveals to us that Newman was not really to blame for this, rather was he in this respect a sacrifice, a victim of his age, a victim of the Ahrimanic forces — as I named them just now. These Ahrimanic forces had an extraordinarily strong influence on Cardinal Newman; they fell upon him and took captive his power of thought, which was consequently unable to develop freely and find its way into spirituality. For he who would today unfold his life in freedom must first of all be free in his thinking, must liberate his power of thought from the bondage of the brain."

        Now Tom, being a member of the English speaking community attached to a nation of same leaning, I find this interesting, especially that which follows.

        RS: "

        Ahriman achieves his greatest successes by shortening the second half of man's life after death. You know how a certain time elapses between death and a new birth. I have described in my Mystery Plays how this time consists of two halves, the second half taking its course after what I have called the Cosmic Midnight. It is this later half — the period from the Cosmic Midnight to the moment of new birth — that Ahriman tries to shorten. And by so doing he gets hold of the human brain and its thinking. With impetuous and savage energy, he fastens on the brain, and tries to hold men spellbound to the Earth, That is how the Ahrimanic forces are working today, — and in ever increasing measure; they try to bring man's power of thought evermore deeply into the earthly realm, away from the spiritual world. Human beings are thus incarnated one or two centuries too early. This method of attack on the part of the Ahrimanic forces must be overcome with spiritual energy and determination, At the time when Cardinal Newman was still holding the rudder of his life, he was even then incapable, for all his spiritual energy, of freeing his thought sufficiently, — or he would not have spoken as he did of the need for a new revelation, he would instead have found the way to it himself...

        The study of tragic figures such as his can bring home to us very forcibly the need of our time;

        and you will find many similar instances here in England. That is why it is so urgent that there should be understanding in this country of the need for that spiritual knowledge and spiritual life, from which Cardinal Newman was snatched away by the Ahrimanic forces. Spiritual knowledge and spiritual life must again be made accessible to mankind, if civilisation is to be saved from ruin.

        Insight

        into such connections as we have been considering can stimulate in us the resolve to do all in our power for the furtherance of the spiritual life of mankind. There is really no other possible course for us today. Let us, however, not be blind to the fact that the Ahrimanic powers are very strong. The truth to which we would bear witness has fierce and stubborn enemies, who are inspired by these Ahrimanic powers. Stronger, and ever stronger grow these powers! I want to say this to you today, that you may not be taken aback when you find that as soon as the anthroposophical movement begins to stand forth in the world, it will have to fight continually and increasingly with terrific enemy forces."

        Now Tom, these 'terrific enemy forces' are not only present to aggravate and oppose individuals who assume 'rank' within the Anthroposophical Society, we must not kid ourselves about that...

        And finally, I offer up these excepts as part of my deepened psychological interpretation towards your previously described personal affliction of self pity.

        Have a nice day, Carol.

        PS.  Raising one 'sheath' at a time.


        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" organicethics@ wrote:
        >
        > > Tom also wrote:"You have also recognized it in others, namely in Joel
        > > Wendt and in Bradford Riley, these Amfortas wounded warriors, whining in
        > > their maudlin, melodramatic --- but NOT melancholic! --- self-pity,
        > > crying in their respective beers, over the terribly unfair blows of fate
        > > that struck them early on in life. I also notice that this particular
        > > style of "pity partying" is very much a "guy thing."
        > >
        > > Oh please, do couple up B Riley with the other.
        > >
        > > It's funny how you don't see the ' light that envelops' and 'rays out
        > > warmth' from the soul presence which Bradford's writtings convey. Such a
        > > fine, formative wisdom filled mix of Christic and Jewish etheric forces.
        > > (Often enough)
        > >
        > > The other, I dare not call upon his name, is a shallow enough egocentric
        > > Anthro, who's soul socializes with others on pretty much a surface
        > > level. Forget about Wisdom as a living, spiritual force with this guy,
        > > he's full of pedantry.
        > >
        > > (How and why in heaven's name have you placed these two together? I
        > > beleive that Mr. Tom has some Anthro to do.)
        > ======================================================
        >
        > Carol,
        >
        > In my focus on responding to Dottie, I forgot to embed the
        > foundational structure.
        >
        > I've mentioned before, the favorite saying of Rene Querido when faced
        > with paradoxical or contradictory statements and dilemmas. He would
        > say in German "Schichten Urteilen" which literally means "Levels;
        > Judgements"
        >
        > More properly translated, it means: "Make different judgments
        > according to different levels of reality."
        >
        > In the case here of B. Riley vs. J. Wendt, I need to establish the
        > levels where they are equal and where they are not.
        >
        > For this I turn to the incisive anthropophical insights of Valentin
        > Tomberg, who, in one of his Bible study pamplhlets presented the
        > threefold differentiation of not only the human organism but of the
        > social order.
        >
        > Let me do a chart of the three "Schichten"
        >
        > (1) SPIRIT ---THINKING-----Cultural Sphere -----Head/Nervous system
        > (2) SOUL ------FEELING ----- Rights Sphere -----Heart/Lung System
        > (3) BODY------WILLING ------Economic Sphere-----Metabolic/Limb System
        >
        > All the above is directly from Steiner. What Tomberg did was to look
        > at the issue of the Part vs. The Whole
        >
        > At Level (1) The Part is GREATER THAN the Whole
        > At Level (2) The Part is EQUAL TO the Whole
        > At Level (3) The Part is LESS THAN the Whole
        >
        >
        > In my post to Dottie, I was speaking about the SOUL level, doing the
        > SOUL work. At that level, B. Riley is equal to J. Wendt is equal to
        > me, to you, to everyone else. That's the level of equality.
        >
        > On the SPIRIT level, where the Part is greater than the Whole and thus
        > there is no equality, you are correct in judging that B. Riley is a
        > relative "Goethe" as compared to J. Wendt as relative "Hottentot."
        >
        > This whole issue of SOUL work is what I have had to tend to during the
        > last 7 years of my "walkabout," when I was far from the Steiner Internet.
        >
        > Robert Sardello makes a great deal of the fact that by and large
        > anthropops and moms are loathe to do the SOUL work necessary to
        > properly put the SPIRIT in perspective. What happens is that Anthros
        > tend to dive into the SPIRIT pool and think that will automatically
        > take care of the SOUL level. But it doesn't.
        >
        > As an example of my own SOUL work, I'll give you some of the
        > modalities I did in the last 7 years, all outside the SPIRIT realm of
        > anthroposophy.
        >
        > Rebirthing a la Leonard Orr; EFT (Emotional Freedom Therapy) Gary
        > Craig; acupuncture; but best of all the Family Constellation Therapy
        > work of Bert Hellinger.
        >
        > Also great insights from Lloyd deMause who has developed psychohistory.
        >
        > And indeed, in my last conversation with Dennis Klocek a year ago, we
        > spoke about the need to do this soul work within anthroposophy, to
        > experience in the body, the circumstances of not only childhood
        > traumas, but of birth, pre-natal, even back to the time of conception.
        >
        > Steiner took care of the reincarnating soul up to the point of
        > conception but he did not fill in at all the fetal experience and the
        > birth experience that all these regressive therapists work with
        > (Arthur Janov & Primal Therapy; Stan Grof and Holotropic Breathwork, etc.)
        >
        > Hope this clears up your concerns about comparisons.
        >
        > Tom.
        >
      • Iris Sullivan
        To Tom The soul work you mention is a necessity. Yet I do not believe that we have to go back in time and uncover the wounds, because all the untransformed
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 4, 2007
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          To Tom
          The soul work you mention is a necessity. Yet I do not believe that we have to go back in time and uncover the wounds, because all the untransformed wounds we carry in our present and in every meeting we have.
          In the color work I do as therapy, all of the past, including past incarnations that are an obstacle in this life are present in the relationship to light and dark as done by the individual. Before spirit, is the soul work. Art gives us the means to make changes on the paper thereby educating the soul to new feelings and ways of interacting when there is conflict and perceived stress.
          Iris

          tmasthenes13 <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
          --- In anthroposophy@ yahoogroups. com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...> wrote:

          > Tom also wrote:"You have also recognized it in others, namely in Joel
          > Wendt and in Bradford Riley, these Amfortas wounded warriors, whining in
          > their maudlin, melodramatic --- but NOT melancholic! --- self-pity,
          > crying in their respective beers, over the terribly unfair blows of fate
          > that struck them early on in life. I also notice that this particular
          > style of "pity partying" is very much a "guy thing."
          >
          > Oh please, do couple up B Riley with the other.
          >
          > It's funny how you don't see the ' light that envelops' and 'rays out
          > warmth' from the soul presence which Bradford's writtings convey. Such a
          > fine, formative wisdom filled mix of Christic and Jewish etheric forces.
          > (Often enough)
          >
          > The other, I dare not call upon his name, is a shallow enough egocentric
          > Anthro, who's soul socializes with others on pretty much a surface
          > level. Forget about Wisdom as a living, spiritual force with this guy,
          > he's full of pedantry.
          >
          > (How and why in heaven's name have you placed these two together? I
          > beleive that Mr. Tom has some Anthro to do.)
          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ======

          Carol,

          In my focus on responding to Dottie, I forgot to embed the
          foundational structure.

          I've mentioned before, the favorite saying of Rene Querido when faced
          with paradoxical or contradictory statements and dilemmas. He would
          say in German "Schichten Urteilen" which literally means "Levels;
          Judgements"

          More properly translated, it means: "Make different judgments
          according to different levels of reality."

          In the case here of B. Riley vs. J. Wendt, I need to establish the
          levels where they are equal and where they are not.

          For this I turn to the incisive anthropophical insights of Valentin
          Tomberg, who, in one of his Bible study pamplhlets presented the
          threefold differentiation of not only the human organism but of the
          social order.

          Let me do a chart of the three "Schichten"

          (1) SPIRIT ---THINKING- ----Cultural Sphere -----Head/Nervous system
          (2) SOUL ------FEELING ----- Rights Sphere -----Heart/Lung System
          (3) BODY------WILLING ------Economic Sphere-----Metaboli c/Limb System

          All the above is directly from Steiner. What Tomberg did was to look
          at the issue of the Part vs. The Whole

          At Level (1) The Part is GREATER THAN the Whole
          At Level (2) The Part is EQUAL TO the Whole
          At Level (3) The Part is LESS THAN the Whole

          In my post to Dottie, I was speaking about the SOUL level, doing the
          SOUL work. At that level, B. Riley is equal to J. Wendt is equal to
          me, to you, to everyone else. That's the level of equality.

          On the SPIRIT level, where the Part is greater than the Whole and thus
          there is no equality, you are correct in judging that B. Riley is a
          relative "Goethe" as compared to J. Wendt as relative "Hottentot."

          This whole issue of SOUL work is what I have had to tend to during the
          last 7 years of my "walkabout," when I was far from the Steiner Internet.

          Robert Sardello makes a great deal of the fact that by and large
          anthropops and moms are loathe to do the SOUL work necessary to
          properly put the SPIRIT in perspective. What happens is that Anthros
          tend to dive into the SPIRIT pool and think that will automatically
          take care of the SOUL level. But it doesn't.

          As an example of my own SOUL work, I'll give you some of the
          modalities I did in the last 7 years, all outside the SPIRIT realm of
          anthroposophy.

          Rebirthing a la Leonard Orr; EFT (Emotional Freedom Therapy) Gary
          Craig; acupuncture; but best of all the Family Constellation Therapy
          work of Bert Hellinger.

          Also great insights from Lloyd deMause who has developed psychohistory.

          And indeed, in my last conversation with Dennis Klocek a year ago, we
          spoke about the need to do this soul work within anthroposophy, to
          experience in the body, the circumstances of not only childhood
          traumas, but of birth, pre-natal, even back to the time of conception.

          Steiner took care of the reincarnating soul up to the point of
          conception but he did not fill in at all the fetal experience and the
          birth experience that all these regressive therapists work with
          (Arthur Janov & Primal Therapy; Stan Grof and Holotropic Breathwork, etc.)

          Hope this clears up your concerns about comparisons.

          Tom.


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