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Judas Iscariot --> ????? ---> Leonardo

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  • tmasthenes13
    Hi Stephen and Dan, Been wanting to contribute a tidbit to your discussion of the thread of incarnations of Judas Iscariot. I heard from Rene Querido several
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 23, 2007
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      Hi Stephen and Dan,

      Been wanting to contribute a tidbit to your discussion of the thread
      of incarnations of Judas Iscariot.

      I heard from Rene Querido several times in the early 80s about this
      thread. As you have stated them,

      Judas Maccabeus ---> Judas Iscariot ---> Constantine ---> Leonardo da
      Vinci

      Rene gave the same sequence of 4 except he differed on #3:

      Judas Maccabeus ---> Judas Iscariot ---> St. Augustine ---> Leonardo
      da Vinci


      I lean toward St. Augustine because of his strong Manichaean
      experience and conversion, which is very much a betrayal of his past.
      Constantine strikes me as being a little too "Hollywood," but on the
      other hand, Connie really put the Roman into the Roman Catholic Church.

      (I'm writing about Judas on A_T since I've been accused of treason
      over there. So I will elaborate further on the esoteric basis of
      betrayal. After all, Judas was the Scorpio apostle, and without the
      demolition work of Scorpio, we could never have the establishment work
      of Taurus. And you cannot have any forward evolution of anything
      unless and until the past is betrayed.)

      I sign off with my new title:

      Father Tom, Judas Priest
    • holderlin66
      http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp A tight, close, in your face, up front and personal
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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        http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp

        A tight, close, in your face, up front and personal look at the Last Supper.  As I have brought here, way back somewhere, The Last Supper and the Stream of the Sun Being, which required a 12 fold, at least a 12 fold streaming etheric system in which to radiate out the forces of the growing Elohim influence, namely Christ in the Jesus vehicle.  As has been brought here, the ONE streaming out to the twelve invert themselves so that the TWELVE STREAM into the ONE and potently impregnate the 12 currents of human wisdom into the ONE in the 13th Century and develop from this the potent Sun Seed of how the humans of humanity will cope with having had the Christ in their midst.  The Christ in their midst pollinated and impregnated the model of Spirit Man into the foundations and Core of the Earth.

        To make use and utilize the model that was drawn from the highest Sun Initiation forces of a 12fold zodiac streaming, such an event where the Sun Being Christ, lofty but removed from His natural habitat, the LOGOS of Man, the LOGOS itself, weakened and translated from His realm of the Sun to Earth - required the warmed Olive groves, required at least the seed force of choosing twelve disciples to stream into thus forming a mini-constellation, a seed core, in which to penetrate into a region and begin the enhancement of forces through the slow and steady rise of the strength of the miracles, which rise stage by stage and step by step upwards in potency. 

        The Transplanted Sun force gradually builds its potent forces up out of the local region of the etheric forces of Palastine and the local region we find today under such Ahrimanic influence. But for a time, the Mid-Point of Earth, the transported and trans-temporal Time traveller, the Christ, streamed out a walking identity into at least Twelve and as He grew in strength, thousands of mini-miracles became apparent as the Logos gained the forces and drew the forces from the Earth, where HE the Logos, nesteled into individuals and awakened in them those forces that are foundationally ruled by the Logos of Love and the Logos of Wisdom.

        Now to grasp the Sun Seed of an Elohim and to grasp how humanity is now in the process of creating the cosmos of humanity from a Sun Seed, where the Twelve currrents of wisdom, from twele individuals streamed into the One in the 13th century -  We need to dynamically rebuild in our mind's eye the growing forces and growing step by step miracles and potent depth that the Christ took hold of out of the Jesus individual.  We then need to overlay and transform the streaming into the Twelve from the One to the Twelve that stream into the One and at this point we begin to fathom, ever so faintly, we begin to fathom the Sun Seed Source point of what the individuality of Christian Rosenkreuz means.

        It does require to move through the building miracles and see how the mighty Elohim, weakened in translation, or as the movie would attempt to say, the mighty sun force, almost Lost in Translation, and having to build up itself out of Olive Groves, Olive hued, middle earthers, and a human vehicle to send the streaming fire through, until, well until that Golgotha moment when the whole ignition, lift off of planet Earth and the whole new cosmic seed of a new human cosmos was launched from Golgotha.  Now if we could begin seeing how al this works we could transform the mighty Last Supper into the Image of One who took in the full 12 streams in the 13th century... 

        We are required to move Christianity from a static image to a dynamic, moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common sense will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision instead of a mere dogmatic, stiff and static staring at the Last Supper.  Start to work with insight instead of behaving like cows staring at grass.

      • carol
        Bradford brought: We are required to move Christianity from a static image to a dynamic, moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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          Bradford brought: "We are required to move Christianity from

          a static image to a dynamic, moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common sense will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision instead of a mere dogmatic, stiff and static staring at the Last Supper. Start to work with insight instead of behaving like cows staring at grass."

          Bradford, in passing, what could

          grass possibly reveal to cows in this year 2007? Grass might cry out to cows that it's state of health is not ideal, and then it might indicate for them to look for a culprit up in the sky.

          What is the sky possibly revealing more often than not these days, in the year 2007?

          Perhaps a VERY tricky manifestation of YET another grand Ahrimanic lie?

          In this year of 2007, can there be no getting away from Ahriman's signature on physical reality, anywhere one places their gaze?

          If COWS were to depend solely on what is seen outside of themselves, within the earthly environment, for a concept of truth, they would surely become part of the great gang fallen under Ahriman's deceptive reign.

          Come to think of it, genuine COWS likely possess some form of etheric perception, in the absence of a thinking spirit...

          It would be more likely THINKING SPIRITS would be FOOL enough to eagerly take a deceptive experience as TRUE and then blindly proceed with impressing SUCH a muddled, falsified ideal onto their inner worlds and then allow themselves to spread it out, like a virus throughout  the world's social fabric....

          Except for the very courageous ones, of course!!!

          AEROSOL OPERATION CRIMES & COVER-UP

          copyright 1999-2007 by Clifford E Carnicom
          http://www.carnicom.com/conright.htm

          Geoengineering is defined as `intentional large scale manipulation of the global environment', e.g. by altering climate with the primary intention of reducing undesired climate change caused by human influences. `Geoengineering schemes seek to mitigate the effect of fossil-fuel combustion on the climate without abating fossil fuel use; for example by placing shields in space to reduce the sunlight incident on the Earth.' (Keith D.W. 1999. Geoengineering, Encyclopedia of Global Change, New York).

          http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAL20051020&articleId=1120

          Opening Segment Preview Aerosol Crimes Documentary

          http://www.carnicom.com/firsthi.htm

           

           

           

           

           


           


          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp
          > <http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp>
          >
          > A tight, close, in your face, up front and personal look at the Last
          > Supper. As I have brought here, way back somewhere, The Last Supper and
          > the Stream of the Sun Being, which required a 12 fold, at least a 12
          > fold streaming etheric system in which to radiate out the forces of the
          > growing Elohim influence, namely Christ in the Jesus vehicle. As has
          > been brought here, the ONE streaming out to the twelve invert themselves
          > so that the TWELVE STREAM into the ONE and potently impregnate the 12
          > currents of human wisdom into the ONE in the 13th Century and develop
          > from this the potent Sun Seed of how the humans of humanity will cope
          > with having had the Christ in their midst. The Christ in their midst
          > pollinated and impregnated the model of Spirit Man into the foundations
          > and Core of the Earth.
          >
          > To make use and utilize the model that was drawn from the highest Sun
          > Initiation forces of a 12fold zodiac streaming, such an event where the
          > Sun Being Christ, lofty but removed from His natural habitat, the LOGOS
          > of Man, the LOGOS itself, weakened and translated from His realm of the
          > Sun to Earth - required the warmed Olive groves, required at least the
          > seed force of choosing twelve disciples to stream into thus forming a
          > mini-constellation, a seed core, in which to penetrate into a region and
          > begin the enhancement of forces through the slow and steady rise of the
          > strength of the miracles, which rise stage by stage and step by step
          > upwards in potency.
          >
          > The Transplanted Sun force gradually builds its potent forces up out of
          > the local region of the etheric forces of Palastine and the local region
          > we find today under such Ahrimanic influence. But for a time, the
          > Mid-Point of Earth, the transported and trans-temporal Time traveller,
          > the Christ, streamed out a walking identity into at least Twelve and as
          > He grew in strength, thousands of mini-miracles became apparent as the
          > Logos gained the forces and drew the forces from the Earth, where HE the
          > Logos, nesteled into individuals and awakened in them those forces that
          > are foundationally ruled by the Logos of Love and the Logos of Wisdom.
          >
          > Now to grasp the Sun Seed of an Elohim and to grasp how humanity is now
          > in the process of creating the cosmos of humanity from a Sun Seed, where
          > the Twelve currrents of wisdom, from twele individuals streamed into the
          > One in the 13th century - We need to dynamically rebuild in our mind's
          > eye the growing forces and growing step by step miracles and potent
          > depth that the Christ took hold of out of the Jesus individual. We then
          > need to overlay and transform the streaming into the Twelve from the One
          > to the Twelve that stream into the One and at this point we begin to
          > fathom, ever so faintly, we begin to fathom the Sun Seed Source point of
          > what the individuality of Christian Rosenkreuz means.
          >
          > It does require to move through the building miracles and see how the
          > mighty Elohim, weakened in translation, or as the movie would attempt to
          > say, the mighty sun force, almost Lost in Translation, and having to
          > build up itself out of Olive Groves, Olive hued, middle earthers, and a
          > human vehicle to send the streaming fire through, until, well until that
          > Golgotha moment when the whole ignition, lift off of planet Earth and
          > the whole new cosmic seed of a new human cosmos was launched from
          > Golgotha. Now if we could begin seeing how al this works we could
          > transform the mighty Last Supper into the Image of One who took in the
          > full 12 streams in the 13th century...
          >
          > We are required to move Christianity from a static image to a dynamic,
          > moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common sense
          > will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision instead of a mere dogmatic,
          > stiff and static staring at the Last Supper. Start to work with insight
          > instead of behaving like cows staring at grass.
          >

        • Stephen Hale
          ... sense ... insight ... Well, I studied this painting again and it brought back vivid memories of the discussion on A_T about two years ago. Some people are
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp

            > We are required to move Christianity from a static image to a dynamic,
            > moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common
            sense
            > will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision instead of a mere dogmatic,
            > stiff and static staring at the Last Supper. Start to work with
            insight
            > instead of behaving like cows staring at grass.

            Well, I studied this painting again and it brought back vivid memories
            of the discussion on A_T about two years ago. Some people are utterly
            vehement about how things have to be portrayed. So, here's my
            question: Did Leonardo really have it all together when he
            painted "The Last Supper"?

            Here's my point: I can find only twelve disciples sitting on either
            side of Christ-Jesus. Shouldn't there be thirteen? Furthermore,
            wouldn't the three at the head of the table, having their rather
            enclosed discussion, be the three that Christ took as His inner circle,
            i.e., Simon, James and John? And if so, how could Peter be sitting at
            mid-table learing at the oh-so feminine-looking John, while John's
            seemingly seventy-year old bearded brother James sits to the left next
            to Peter's oh-so feminine looking brother, Andrew? And then, how could
            Peter be holding a knife in his right hand, when it clearly appears to
            be in the hand of 'John' as a logical bodily extension? And why is
            Judas, looking over these two (Peter & John), depicted as arabic in
            appearance?

            It's all very mysterious to me, just as the belief that Leonardo da
            Vinci is the third reincarnation since Judas Maccabeus strikes me this
            way as well. Unless he was purposely misrepresenting the facts, which
            could be considered a betrayal, I don't see Judas as a renaissance
            man. I see Leonardo as a renaissance-man, but not Judas Iscariot.

            I don't think that he was that awake yet. Leonardo yes, Judas no.
          • isenhart7
            ... memories ... utterly ... I don t remember the discussion, Steve, so I figure Leonardo had it more together than I do. ... either ... circle, ... at ...
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
              <sardisian01@...> wrote:

              > Well, I studied this painting again and it brought back vivid
              memories
              > of the discussion on A_T about two years ago. Some people are
              utterly
              > vehement about how things have to be portrayed. So, here's my
              > question: Did Leonardo really have it all together when he
              > painted "The Last Supper"?

              I don't remember the discussion, Steve, so I figure Leonardo had it
              more together than I do.

              > Here's my point: I can find only twelve disciples sitting on
              either
              > side of Christ-Jesus. Shouldn't there be thirteen? Furthermore,
              > wouldn't the three at the head of the table, having their rather
              > enclosed discussion, be the three that Christ took as His inner
              circle,
              > i.e., Simon, James and John? And if so, how could Peter be sitting
              at
              > mid-table learing at the oh-so feminine-looking John, while John's
              > seemingly seventy-year old bearded brother James sits to the left
              next
              > to Peter's oh-so feminine looking brother, Andrew? And then, how
              could
              > Peter be holding a knife in his right hand, when it clearly appears
              to
              > be in the hand of 'John' as a logical bodily extension? And why is
              > Judas, looking over these two (Peter & John), depicted as arabic in
              > appearance?

              I've studied this painting many Easters and used to have some pretty
              heated arguments about some of these very topics which I'll have to
              come back to. Sorry. In the meantime a question, where are you
              getting the placements from-and an answer-put your hand out in front
              of you and then flex your wrist downwards as far as you are able
              (your fingers should be pointed behind you) then move your entire arm
              to your side and you should get an idea of the Peter pose.-Val
            • Stephen Hale
              ... Well Val, for your memory s sake, the previous discussion concerned the three at the head of the table, and how the very one at the head of the table
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...> wrote:
                > I've studied this painting many Easters and used to have some pretty
                > heated arguments about some of these very topics which I'll have to
                > come back to. Sorry. In the meantime a question, where are you
                > getting the placements from-and an answer-put your hand out in front
                > of you and then flex your wrist downwards as far as you are able
                > (your fingers should be pointed behind you) then move your entire arm
                > to your side and you should get an idea of the Peter pose.-Val

                Well Val, for your memory's sake, the previous discussion concerned the
                three at the head of the table, and how the very one at the head of the
                table looked so much like the famous painting in which a much older
                bald and bearded man is being nailed and risen on a crucifix upside
                down.

                As for the Peter pose, I don't buy it but maybe you do for some
                reason. Why would someone do this? And why would Leonardo depict it
                this way? Doesn't it make more sense that the knife would be in the
                right hand of the one who would eventually tell how Judas held the
                money box, which he pilfered from, and complain that Mary was wasting
                expensive spikenard ointment annointing Christ, which could be better
                spent donating for 300 denari in support of the poor?

                Simply put, I don't see Peter sittng next to John with a knife behind
                his twisted right hand. Rather, I see him discussing matters with
                James and John at the head of the table, which would be a reasonable
                depiction for any student of the Gospels; even Leonardo da Vinci.

                Steve
              • isenhart7
                ... the ... the ... Okay Steve, I m guessing I wasn t part of this particular conversation because I don t remember it. I don t buy the conventional placement
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                  <sardisian01@...> wrote:

                  > Well Val, for your memory's sake, the previous discussion concerned
                  the
                  > three at the head of the table, and how the very one at the head of
                  the
                  > table looked so much like the famous painting in which a much older
                  > bald and bearded man is being nailed and risen on a crucifix upside
                  > down.

                  Okay Steve, I'm guessing I wasn't part of this particular
                  conversation because I don't remember it. I don't buy the
                  conventional placement of the apostles and that's why I asked you
                  where you are getting your placements from.
                  >
                  > As for the Peter pose, I don't buy it but maybe you do for some
                  > reason.

                  Ummm, 'cause I've seen it. That's how the pose is-how it's depicted
                  now anyway.

                  Why would someone do this? And why would Leonardo depict it
                  this way? Doesn't it make more sense that the knife would be in the
                  right hand of the one who would eventually tell how Judas held the
                  money box, which he pilfered from, and complain that Mary was wasting
                  expensive spikenard ointment annointing Christ, which could be better
                  spent donating for 300 denari in support of the poor?

                  I don't think so but one of the things I spent a lot of time on was
                  the correlation of the Zodiac with this painting-each apostle
                  represented a different aspect.
                  >
                  > Simply put, I don't see Peter sittng next to John with a knife
                  behind his twisted right hand. Rather, I see him discussing matters
                  with James and John at the head of the table, which would be a
                  reasonable depiction for any student of the Gospels; even Leonardo da
                  Vinci.

                  I always saw Peter at the head of the table, doesn't mean that there
                  isn't room for a twisted Mr. too.-Val
                • Stephen Hale
                  ... concerned ... of ... older ... upside ... It s part of the detail at that site. ... depicted ... I can see the pose as well as you. Why Peter, that s my
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                    > <sardisian01@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Well Val, for your memory's sake, the previous discussion
                    concerned
                    > the
                    > > three at the head of the table, and how the very one at the head
                    of
                    > the
                    > > table looked so much like the famous painting in which a much
                    older
                    > > bald and bearded man is being nailed and risen on a crucifix
                    upside
                    > > down.
                    >
                    > Okay Steve, I'm guessing I wasn't part of this particular
                    > conversation because I don't remember it. I don't buy the
                    > conventional placement of the apostles and that's why I asked you
                    > where you are getting your placements from.

                    It's part of the detail at that site.
                    > >
                    > > As for the Peter pose, I don't buy it but maybe you do for some
                    > > reason.
                    >
                    > Ummm, 'cause I've seen it. That's how the pose is-how it's
                    depicted
                    > now anyway.

                    I can see the pose as well as you. Why Peter, that's my concern?
                    >
                    > Why would someone do this? And why would Leonardo depict it
                    > this way? Doesn't it make more sense that the knife would be in
                    the
                    > right hand of the one who would eventually tell how Judas held the
                    > money box, which he pilfered from, and complain that Mary was
                    wasting
                    > expensive spikenard ointment annointing Christ, which could be
                    better
                    > spent donating for 300 denari in support of the poor?
                    >
                    > I don't think so but one of the things I spent a lot of time on
                    was
                    > the correlation of the Zodiac with this painting-each apostle
                    > represented a different aspect.

                    And so, where did Peter fit in? And where did Judas fit in?
                    > >
                    > > Simply put, I don't see Peter sittng next to John with a knife
                    > behind his twisted right hand. Rather, I see him discussing
                    matters
                    > with James and John at the head of the table, which would be a
                    > reasonable depiction for any student of the Gospels; even Leonardo
                    da
                    > Vinci.
                    >
                    > I always saw Peter at the head of the table, doesn't mean that
                    there
                    > isn't room for a twisted Mr. too.-Val

                    Well maybe that was left for the thirteenth. But, ummm, maybe you
                    can provide more please. Thanks.

                    Steve
                  • isenhart7
                    ... Oh, I just saw the picture-not any text. At one time I did research on how the placements were derived by art scholars/historians and I did not concur. I
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                      <sardisian01@...> wrote:

                      > > Okay Steve, I'm guessing I wasn't part of this particular
                      > > conversation because I don't remember it. I don't buy the
                      > > conventional placement of the apostles and that's why I asked you
                      > > where you are getting your placements from.
                      >
                      > It's part of the detail at that site.

                      Oh, I just saw the picture-not any text. At one time I did research
                      on how the placements were derived by art scholars/historians and I
                      did not concur. I will look at the site but I assume they are using
                      the standard placement scheme which (short answer) is based on the
                      placements in an earlier Last Supper sketch, other sketches of the
                      apostles and some educated guesswork.

                      > I can see the pose as well as you.

                      Well, I don't know-I can go up a block to the high school and see it
                      life size any day of the week.

                      >Why Peter, that's my concern?

                      You can look it up in art history books-I think specifically there
                      was a bust and/or a drawing of Peter and this is the figure he was
                      matched up to. If you're really interested in that aspect you would
                      probably find the research of who first designated this figure as
                      Peter and why.

                      > And so, where did Peter fit in? And where did Judas fit in?

                      Taurus, Capricorn I think.

                      > > I always saw Peter at the head of the table, doesn't mean that
                      > there
                      > > isn't room for a twisted Mr. too.
                      >
                      > Well maybe that was left for the thirteenth. But, ummm, maybe you
                      > can provide more please. Thanks.

                      Yeah, I'll have to think on it-it's coming back to me a little-the
                      two years ago thing. I didn't want to discuss the last supper at that
                      time of the year because it had been a traditional Easter
                      contemplation for me. But come to think of it-it's the perfect time
                      of the year now to contemplate the upside-down crucifixion so I will
                      be glad to take it up with you.-Val
                    • isenhart7
                      ... Okay-I looked through it including the credits but I didn t see anything really helpful there. The history of how who got where is probably what you want.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...> wrote:

                        > Oh, I just saw the picture-not any text.

                        Okay-I looked through it including the credits but I didn't see
                        anything really helpful there. The history of how who got where is
                        probably what you want. However, there are thirteen different gestures
                        depicted in this painting and everyone can see them, do them, and
                        associate them with whatever they want I guess. I did the zodiac and
                        found it worthwhile. So let me ask you another question: How old was
                        Peter at the time of the last supper?-Val
                      • Stephen Hale
                        ... gestures ... Val, I don t buy the history as generally accepted. Please understand that. That s why I am taking issue with what is written concerning
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 30, 2007
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                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Oh, I just saw the picture-not any text.
                          >
                          > Okay-I looked through it including the credits but I didn't see
                          > anything really helpful there. The history of how who got where is
                          > probably what you want. However, there are thirteen different
                          gestures
                          > depicted in this painting and everyone can see them, do them, and
                          > associate them with whatever they want I guess. I did the zodiac and
                          > found it worthwhile. So let me ask you another question: How old was
                          > Peter at the time of the last supper?-Val

                          Val, I don't buy the history as generally accepted. Please understand
                          that. That's why I am taking issue with what is written concerning
                          this painting. And didn't I already say that? Spiritual science has
                          another take on the matter, which doesn't concern art historians or
                          bible scholars.

                          And Peter was 37 years old at the time; destined to live 30 more
                          years. - Steve
                        • isenhart7
                          ... understand ... I m pretty sure the Steiner said on this one corresponds with the historical work. I know that s not necessarily what you meant but there
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 31, 2007
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                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...>
                            wrote:

                            > Val, I don't buy the history as generally accepted. Please
                            understand
                            > that. That's why I am taking issue with what is written concerning
                            > this painting. And didn't I already say that? Spiritual science has
                            > another take on the matter, which doesn't concern art historians or
                            > bible scholars.

                            I'm pretty sure the Steiner said on this one corresponds with the
                            historical work. I know that's not necessarily what you meant but there
                            you are. Thus some people perhaps maintain a rather rigid perception of
                            this painting. Their loss, I think. I was thinking about the twisted
                            Mr. I think you asked why Leonardo would paint someone in this pose. My
                            question was why would someone stand like that. That particular stance
                            is stabilizing to the shoulder and might be used by someone who had a
                            weak shoulder due to, let us imagine, the use of a weapon, like I dunno-
                            a crossbow or arrow or something.
                            >
                            > And Peter was 37 years old at the time; destined to live 30 more
                            > years.

                            Ergo, he wouldn't have been depicted wisened and gray as the man with
                            the knife, IMHO.-Val
                          • carol
                            Re: FLUID dynamic vision. I previously wrote: ` If COWS were to depend solely on what is seen outside of themselves, within the earthly environment, for a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 31, 2007
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                              Re: FLUID dynamic vision. 

                              I previously wrote: `'If COWS were to depend solely on what is seen outside of themselves, within the earthly environment, for a concept of truth, they would surely become part of the great gang fallen under Ahriman's deceptive reign.''

                              I find the situation in North America  is increasingly becoming  impressive in a visual sense and fast approaching a certain level of drama which we see long ago depicted through  ancient Greek mythology.

                              Ex. Strong Ahrimanic forces surging up from the underground along with their `script' now writing itself out throughout the skies.

                              A guy in my neighbourhood remarked the other day that women who freely choose to wear scarves or wear a Christic cross hanging from their necks open themselves to general criticism when and if they do so while assuming a public service function, but at the same time, it has become acceptable to overlook a young woman in a public service function displaying a row of `paper clips' below her lower lip....

                              Would I have just synthesised the `splitting into two races' thread with this one?

                              Gee, I find picking up imaginative and artistic expression from the ancient Greek period is really coming in handy, in overcoming a rigid dogmatic inner confrontation with what is now coming towards us, from the outside,  in these memorable (strikingly tragic and finely hopeful) times?

                              Carol.

                               

                               


                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Bradford brought: "We are required to move Christianity from a static
                              > image to a dynamic, moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and
                              > anyone with common sense will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision
                              > instead of a mere dogmatic, stiff and static staring at the Last Supper.
                              > Start to work with insight instead of behaving like cows staring at
                              > grass."
                              >
                              > Bradford, in passing, what could grass possibly reveal to cows in this
                              > year 2007? Grass might cry out to cows that it's state of health is not
                              > ideal, and then it might indicate for them to look for a culprit up in
                              > the sky.
                              >
                              > What is the sky possibly revealing more often than not these days, in
                              > the year 2007?
                              >
                              > Perhaps a VERY tricky manifestation of YET another grand Ahrimanic lie?
                              >
                              > In this year of 2007, can there be no getting away from Ahriman's
                              > signature on physical reality, anywhere one places their gaze?
                              >
                              > If COWS were to depend solely on what is seen outside of themselves,
                              > within the earthly environment, for a concept of truth, they would
                              > surely become part of the great gang fallen under Ahriman's deceptive
                              > reign.
                              >
                              > Come to think of it, genuine COWS likely possess some form of etheric
                              > perception, in the absence of a thinking spirit...
                              >
                              > It would be more likely THINKING SPIRITS would be FOOL enough to eagerly
                              > take a deceptive experience as TRUE and then blindly proceed with
                              > impressing SUCH a muddled, falsified ideal onto their inner worlds and
                              > then allow themselves to spread it out, like a virus throughout the
                              > world's social fabric....
                              >
                              > Except for the very courageous ones, of course!!!
                              >
                              > AEROSOL OPERATION CRIMES & COVER-UP copyright 1999-2007 by Clifford E
                              > Carnicom
                              > http://www.carnicom.com/conright.htm
                              > <http://www.carnicom.com/conright.htm>
                              >
                              > Geoengineering is defined as `intentional large scale manipulation
                              > of the global environment', e.g. by altering climate with the
                              > primary intention of reducing undesired climate change caused by human
                              > influences. `Geoengineering schemes seek to mitigate the effect of
                              > fossil-fuel combustion on the climate without abating fossil fuel use;
                              > for example by placing shields in space to reduce the sunlight incident
                              > on the Earth.' (Keith D.W. 1999. Geoengineering, Encyclopedia of
                              > Global Change, New York).
                              >
                              > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAL20051\
                              > 020&articleId=1120
                              > <http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAL2005\
                              > 1020&articleId=1120>
                              >
                              > Opening Segment Preview Aerosol Crimes Documentary
                              >
                              > http://www.carnicom.com/firsthi.htm
                              > <http://www.carnicom.com/firsthi.htm>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66" holderlin66@
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp
                              > > <http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/cenacolo/look.asp>
                              > >
                              > > A tight, close, in your face, up front and personal look at the Last
                              > > Supper. As I have brought here, way back somewhere, The Last Supper
                              > and
                              > > the Stream of the Sun Being, which required a 12 fold, at least a 12
                              > > fold streaming etheric system in which to radiate out the forces of
                              > the
                              > > growing Elohim influence, namely Christ in the Jesus vehicle. As has
                              > > been brought here, the ONE streaming out to the twelve invert
                              > themselves
                              > > so that the TWELVE STREAM into the ONE and potently impregnate the 12
                              > > currents of human wisdom into the ONE in the 13th Century and develop
                              > > from this the potent Sun Seed of how the humans of humanity will cope
                              > > with having had the Christ in their midst. The Christ in their midst
                              > > pollinated and impregnated the model of Spirit Man into the
                              > foundations
                              > > and Core of the Earth.
                              > >
                              > > To make use and utilize the model that was drawn from the highest Sun
                              > > Initiation forces of a 12fold zodiac streaming, such an event where
                              > the
                              > > Sun Being Christ, lofty but removed from His natural habitat, the
                              > LOGOS
                              > > of Man, the LOGOS itself, weakened and translated from His realm of
                              > the
                              > > Sun to Earth - required the warmed Olive groves, required at least the
                              > > seed force of choosing twelve disciples to stream into thus forming a
                              > > mini-constellation, a seed core, in which to penetrate into a region
                              > and
                              > > begin the enhancement of forces through the slow and steady rise of
                              > the
                              > > strength of the miracles, which rise stage by stage and step by step
                              > > upwards in potency.
                              > >
                              > > The Transplanted Sun force gradually builds its potent forces up out
                              > of
                              > > the local region of the etheric forces of Palastine and the local
                              > region
                              > > we find today under such Ahrimanic influence. But for a time, the
                              > > Mid-Point of Earth, the transported and trans-temporal Time traveller,
                              > > the Christ, streamed out a walking identity into at least Twelve and
                              > as
                              > > He grew in strength, thousands of mini-miracles became apparent as the
                              > > Logos gained the forces and drew the forces from the Earth, where HE
                              > the
                              > > Logos, nesteled into individuals and awakened in them those forces
                              > that
                              > > are foundationally ruled by the Logos of Love and the Logos of Wisdom.
                              > >
                              > > Now to grasp the Sun Seed of an Elohim and to grasp how humanity is
                              > now
                              > > in the process of creating the cosmos of humanity from a Sun Seed,
                              > where
                              > > the Twelve currrents of wisdom, from twele individuals streamed into
                              > the
                              > > One in the 13th century - We need to dynamically rebuild in our mind's
                              > > eye the growing forces and growing step by step miracles and potent
                              > > depth that the Christ took hold of out of the Jesus individual. We
                              > then
                              > > need to overlay and transform the streaming into the Twelve from the
                              > One
                              > > to the Twelve that stream into the One and at this point we begin to
                              > > fathom, ever so faintly, we begin to fathom the Sun Seed Source point
                              > of
                              > > what the individuality of Christian Rosenkreuz means.
                              > >
                              > > It does require to move through the building miracles and see how the
                              > > mighty Elohim, weakened in translation, or as the movie would attempt
                              > to
                              > > say, the mighty sun force, almost Lost in Translation, and having to
                              > > build up itself out of Olive Groves, Olive hued, middle earthers, and
                              > a
                              > > human vehicle to send the streaming fire through, until, well until
                              > that
                              > > Golgotha moment when the whole ignition, lift off of planet Earth and
                              > > the whole new cosmic seed of a new human cosmos was launched from
                              > > Golgotha. Now if we could begin seeing how al this works we could
                              > > transform the mighty Last Supper into the Image of One who took in the
                              > > full 12 streams in the 13th century...
                              > >
                              > > We are required to move Christianity from a static image to a dynamic,
                              > > moving, changing and as Steiner has brought and anyone with common
                              > sense
                              > > will tell you, a FLUID dynamic of vision instead of a mere dogmatic,
                              > > stiff and static staring at the Last Supper. Start to work with
                              > insight
                              > > instead of behaving like cows staring at grass.
                              > >
                              >

                            • nadmateescu
                              Hi Val, So, what s your opinion about the zodiac and apostles? A work on this masterpiece of Leonardo can be found in the book of Michael Ladwein, (The Last
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 31, 2007
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                                Hi Val,

                                So, what's your opinion about the zodiac and apostles?

                                A work on this masterpiece of Leonardo can be found in the book of
                                Michael Ladwein, (The Last Supper -A Cosmic Drama and an Act of
                                Redemption, http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1902636759);
                                but it seems to me that the author still not reach some hidden aspects
                                of it.

                                best regards, dan

                                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > > Val, I don't buy the history as generally accepted. Please
                                > understand
                                > > that. That's why I am taking issue with what is written concerning
                                > > this painting. And didn't I already say that? Spiritual science has
                                > > another take on the matter, which doesn't concern art historians or
                                > > bible scholars.
                                >
                                > I'm pretty sure the Steiner said on this one corresponds with the
                                > historical work. I know that's not necessarily what you meant but there
                                > you are. Thus some people perhaps maintain a rather rigid perception of
                                > this painting. Their loss, I think. I was thinking about the twisted
                                > Mr. I think you asked why Leonardo would paint someone in this pose. My
                                > question was why would someone stand like that. That particular stance
                                > is stabilizing to the shoulder and might be used by someone who had a
                                > weak shoulder due to, let us imagine, the use of a weapon, like I dunno-
                                > a crossbow or arrow or something.
                                > >
                                > > And Peter was 37 years old at the time; destined to live 30 more
                                > > years.
                                >
                                > Ergo, he wouldn't have been depicted wisened and gray as the man with
                                > the knife, IMHO.-Val
                                >
                              • isenhart7
                                ... Hi Dan! I m assuming you mean by opinion who do I think represents what and how are they configured? I thought the guy with the bum shoulder possibly from
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 31, 2007
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                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "nadmateescu" <nadmateescu@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Val,
                                  >
                                  > So, what's your opinion about the zodiac and apostles?

                                  Hi Dan!

                                  I'm assuming you mean by opinion who do I think represents what and how
                                  are they configured? I thought the guy with the bum shoulder possibly
                                  from knife throwing was Sagitarius. I thought the four groupings of
                                  three apostles each reflected the seasons and that when I worked with
                                  the painting long enough, especially as a reverse image, that the
                                  painting actually began to ebb and flow or live and breath. I remember
                                  that, for me, the ordering from right to left was Spring, Summer,
                                  Winter, Fall.
                                  >
                                  > A work on this masterpiece of Leonardo can be found in the book of
                                  > Michael Ladwein, (The Last Supper -A Cosmic Drama and an Act of
                                  > Redemption, http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1902636759);
                                  > but it seems to me that the author still not reach some hidden aspects
                                  > of it.

                                  That looks like a good book. Does the author consider the gray haired
                                  apostle with one hand on John's shoulder and the other holding a knife,
                                  to be Peter?-Val
                                • Stephen Hale
                                  Val, I m not sure there s a Steiner Said on this one. In fact, if you can find it, it stands to be a very important find in the annals of what Steiner had
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 31, 2007
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                                    Val, I'm not sure there's a "Steiner Said" on this one. In fact, if
                                    you can find it, it stands to be a very important find in the annals
                                    of what Steiner had to say about Peter. You see, Steiner had
                                    nearly next to nothing to say about Peter in all of his voluminous
                                    lecture work. He had alot to say about Paul, but little to say
                                    about Peter. Please believe me. Outside of "The Fifth Gospel",
                                    which treats of Peter's rather profoundly experienced initiation at
                                    the Last Supper, Steiner seems to have excluded Peter from the
                                    gospel accounts.

                                    My perception on this concerns how Paul was the very first to
                                    experience the Etheric Christ, while Peter's experience is quite a
                                    bit more primordial, and maybe Steiner felt that it was meant for a
                                    future time. Although he gave many indications of how the bull
                                    sacrifice was needed in order for the sun forces to enter mankind,
                                    he never specifically names Peter as bearing this requirement as
                                    part of his personal being. It is true, nonetheless.

                                    As well, Abraham can be found in the personal karma of Peter. And
                                    it's been gone over before with the same fiery enthusiasm as I
                                    display now. And thanks to Bradford for challenging us to not be
                                    just grazing cows.

                                    Steve
                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                    <sardisian01@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Val, I don't buy the history as generally accepted. Please
                                    > understand
                                    > > that. That's why I am taking issue with what is written
                                    concerning
                                    > > this painting. And didn't I already say that? Spiritual
                                    science has
                                    > > another take on the matter, which doesn't concern art historians
                                    or
                                    > > bible scholars.
                                    >
                                    > I'm pretty sure the Steiner said on this one corresponds with the
                                    > historical work. I know that's not necessarily what you meant but
                                    there
                                    > you are. Thus some people perhaps maintain a rather rigid
                                    perception of
                                    > this painting. Their loss, I think. I was thinking about the
                                    twisted
                                    > Mr. I think you asked why Leonardo would paint someone in this
                                    pose. My
                                    > question was why would someone stand like that. That particular
                                    stance
                                    > is stabilizing to the shoulder and might be used by someone who
                                    had a
                                    > weak shoulder due to, let us imagine, the use of a weapon, like I
                                    dunno-
                                    > a crossbow or arrow or something.
                                    > >
                                    > > And Peter was 37 years old at the time; destined to live 30 more
                                    > > years.
                                    >
                                    > Ergo, he wouldn't have been depicted wisened and gray as the man
                                    with
                                    > the knife, IMHO.-Val
                                    >
                                  • carol
                                    V. and D. The author has a german website: http://www.ladwein-reisen.de/veroeffentlich%20.html C. ...
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                      V. and D.  The author has a german website:

                                       http://www.ladwein-reisen.de/veroeffentlich%20.html

                                      C.


                                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "nadmateescu" <nadmateescu@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Val,
                                      >
                                      > So, what's your opinion about the zodiac and apostles?
                                      >
                                      > A work on this masterpiece of Leonardo can be found in the book of
                                      > Michael Ladwein, (The Last Supper -A Cosmic Drama and an Act of
                                      > Redemption, http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1902636759);
                                      > but it seems to me that the author still not reach some hidden aspects
                                      > of it.
                                      >
                                      > best regards, dan
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" isenhart7@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Val, I don't buy the history as generally accepted. Please
                                      > > understand
                                      > > > that. That's why I am taking issue with what is written concerning
                                      > > > this painting. And didn't I already say that? Spiritual science has
                                      > > > another take on the matter, which doesn't concern art historians or
                                      > > > bible scholars.
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm pretty sure the Steiner said on this one corresponds with the
                                      > > historical work. I know that's not necessarily what you meant but there
                                      > > you are. Thus some people perhaps maintain a rather rigid perception of
                                      > > this painting. Their loss, I think. I was thinking about the twisted
                                      > > Mr. I think you asked why Leonardo would paint someone in this pose. My
                                      > > question was why would someone stand like that. That particular stance
                                      > > is stabilizing to the shoulder and might be used by someone who had a
                                      > > weak shoulder due to, let us imagine, the use of a weapon, like I dunno-
                                      > > a crossbow or arrow or something.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > And Peter was 37 years old at the time; destined to live 30 more
                                      > > > years.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ergo, he wouldn't have been depicted wisened and gray as the man with
                                      > > the knife, IMHO.-Val
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • holderlin66
                                      One of the mysteries Steiner unveiled was how the mythic issue of Oedipus was resolved in the circle of the disciples. Here we encounter one of the buried gems
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                        One of the mysteries Steiner unveiled was how the mythic issue of
                                        Oedipus was resolved in the circle of the disciples. Here we
                                        encounter one of the buried gems of insight around the karmic
                                        destiny of individuals gathered around the Christ Being.

                                        "There is a saga - it doesn't stand in the Gospels, but it is for
                                        that reason no less a Christian saga, and also a Christian truth,
                                        and it goes this way:

                                        There lived a married couple. This couple had no son for a long
                                        time. Then it was revealed to the mother in a dream (pay close
                                        attention to this) that she would have a son---but that this son
                                        would first kill the father, and then have a union with the mother,
                                        and he would bring a terrible calamity down upon his whole family.

                                        Once again you have a dream, as the oracle does with Oedipus; this
                                        means that here we have a remnant of the ancient clairvoyance. It
                                        was revealed in the ancient way to the mother, what was to happen.
                                        Was what was revealed to her sufficient, so as to see through the
                                        relationships of the world, so as to hinder the calamity? Let's ask
                                        the saga. It further tells us:

                                        Under the impression of this wisdom, which flowed to her from the
                                        dream, the mother took the child that was born to her, to the island
                                        of Kariot; there it was exposed to the mercy of the elements, but it
                                        was found by a neighboring queen. She took in the child and brought
                                        it up herself because they were childless. Later on this couple had
                                        a child of their own, and the foundling who had been taken in, soon
                                        felt neglected, and as a consequence of his passionate temperament,
                                        he killed the son of the royal couple. So now he could not stay
                                        there; he had to flee---and he came to the farm of the country
                                        gentleman, Pilate. There he soon became a foreman in the household.
                                        But then, one time, he got into a dispute with his neighbor, knowing
                                        only that it was his neighbor; in a fight he slew him---and did not
                                        know that it was his own father. And afterwards he married the
                                        neighbor's wife, his mother!

                                        This foundling was Judas Iscariot. And when he became aware of his
                                        horrible situation, he then fled again. And then, solely and alone
                                        he found mercy in the situation he was in, by him who had mercy for
                                        all who came near him--who not only sat at the same table with tax
                                        collectors and sinners, but also despite his deeply penetrating
                                        insight, took up this great sinner as well, for it was his task to
                                        work not merely for good men but for all human beings, and to lead
                                        them from sin into salvation. Thus Judas of Iscariot came into the
                                        vicinity of the Christ Jesus. And now he brought the calamity that
                                        was expressed in advance and had to work out, into the circle of
                                        Jesus Christ---in accordance with Schiller's saying, "That is just
                                        the curse of the evil deed, that, self-generating, it must bring
                                        evil to birth." He became the betrayer of Jesus Christ;
                                        fundamentally, what was to be fulfilled with the murder of his
                                        father and the marriage of his mother. But he stayed on, so to
                                        speak, as a tool, because he was to be a tool, the evil tool that
                                        was to bring about the good---and with that deed, so to speak, to
                                        carry out a deed beyond the fulfillment.

                                        He who is presented to us in Oedipus, as the consequence of the
                                        calamity that he brought about---from the moment on when he
                                        perceives this calamity-loses his eyesight. He, however, who has the
                                        same destiny through his connection to the remnants of the ancient
                                        heritage of original wisdom, he does not go blind; but he is
                                        predestined to carry out the destiny and to do what brings about the
                                        Mystery of Golgotha, which results in the physical death of him who
                                        is the "light of the World," and who brings the light of the world
                                        into effect at the healing of the man born blind. Oedipus had to
                                        lose his eyesight; Christ gave eyesight to the man born blind,---but
                                        he died because of him who had the character of Oedipus---all of
                                        which is to show us how the ancient wisdom becomes exhausted within
                                        humanity, how it is no longer sufficient to bring healing, peace,
                                        and love to men.

                                        For this the Christ impulse, with the event of Golgotha, was
                                        necessary. For this it was necessary that first of all that had to
                                        happen which appears to us as an external reflection in the wedding
                                        at Cana in Galilee, of the relationship of the Jesus Christ ego to
                                        his mother. Also for this, it was further necessary that something
                                        else happened, which the writer of John's Gospel thus describes:

                                        Down below the Cross-stood the mother, down below stood the
                                        disciple "whom the Lord loved", Lazarus-John, whom He had Himself
                                        initiated, and through whom. the wisdom of Christianity was to come
                                        down to posterity; he who was so to influence the astral body of
                                        human beings that the Christ principle could live in them. There,
                                        within the human astral body, the Christ principle was to come to
                                        life, and John was to be the one to pour it in! But for this, the
                                        Christ principle coming down from the cross, had to be united with
                                        the etheric principle, with the mother. Therefore Christ calls down
                                        from the cross the words, "From this hour on, this is-your mother---
                                        and this is your son." This means he binds together his wisdom, with
                                        the motherly principle!

                                        Thus we see how deep are not only the Gospels, but how deep all
                                        connections are in the being of the mysteries. Indeed, the ancient
                                        sagas stand in the same connection to the proclamations and Gospels
                                        of modern times, as prophecy to fulfillment. The ancient sagas show
                                        us one thing clearly in relation to the Oedipus saga and the Judas
                                        story: "Once upon a time there was an ancient divine wisdom. But it
                                        exhausted itself! And a new wisdom must come." And this new wisdom
                                        will bring human beings to the point, to which the ancient wisdom
                                        could no longer have brought them. What would have had to come
                                        about, without the Christ impulse-that the Oedipus saga tells us;,
                                        what the opposition to Christ was, the inflexible holding fast to
                                        the ancient wisdom-that the Judas saga tells us. But that, about
                                        which the ancient sagas and myths tell us, that it is not sufficient-
                                        this, the "new proclamation", the Gospel, tells us in a new light.
                                        The Gospel gives us answers to what the ancient sagas have expressed
                                        as pictures from the ancient wisdom. They have said: there can no
                                        longer come from the ancient wisdom what humanity needs for the
                                        future. But as the new wisdom, the Gospel tells us: I proclaim to
                                        you what humanity needs---but which would have never been able to
                                        come without the influence of the Christ principle, without the
                                        event of Golgotha." The Gospel of St. John, Jul. 4th, 1909, Kassel ~
                                        Rudolf Steiner
                                      • nadmateescu
                                        Hi Val, Sorry for the delay. Yes, the author seems to agree with this identification of the apostles. Indeed, the painting is well known due to it s dramatic
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                          Hi Val,

                                          Sorry for the delay.
                                          Yes, the author seems to agree with this identification of the
                                          apostles. Indeed, the painting is well known due to it's dramatic
                                          display and of course, in a deeper study of it, we can find that it
                                          live and breath.(also can be "heared" due to it's pythagoreic
                                          proportions - Tetrad there)
                                          Da Vinci prepared this fresco for a long time and he studied how light
                                          falls on the walls of Santa Maria delle Grazie, before Easter and
                                          that's why he tried to use this light perspective into his painting.
                                          (as Rudolf Steiner indicated).
                                          The one holding the knife could be seen also in :
                                          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/ghirland/domenico/4lastsup/1passign.jpg
                                          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bassano/jacopo/last_sup.jpg

                                          best regards,
                                          dan

                                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7" <isenhart7@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "nadmateescu" <nadmateescu@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Val,
                                          > >
                                          > > So, what's your opinion about the zodiac and apostles?
                                          >
                                          > Hi Dan!
                                          >
                                          > I'm assuming you mean by opinion who do I think represents what and how
                                          > are they configured? I thought the guy with the bum shoulder possibly
                                          > from knife throwing was Sagitarius. I thought the four groupings of
                                          > three apostles each reflected the seasons and that when I worked with
                                          > the painting long enough, especially as a reverse image, that the
                                          > painting actually began to ebb and flow or live and breath. I remember
                                          > that, for me, the ordering from right to left was Spring, Summer,
                                          > Winter, Fall.
                                          > >
                                          > > A work on this masterpiece of Leonardo can be found in the book of
                                          > > Michael Ladwein, (The Last Supper -A Cosmic Drama and an Act of
                                          > > Redemption, http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=1902636759);
                                          > > but it seems to me that the author still not reach some hidden aspects
                                          > > of it.
                                          >
                                          > That looks like a good book. Does the author consider the gray haired
                                          > apostle with one hand on John's shoulder and the other holding a knife,
                                          > to be Peter?-Val
                                          >
                                        • Stephen Hale
                                          ... Dan and Val, this is the very significant painting in which the proof is given, in visual form, that Christ had put the disciples in a kind of dreamy
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 5, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "nadmateescu"
                                            <nadmateescu@...> wrote:
                                            > The one holding the knife could be seen also in :
                                            > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bassano/jacopo/last_sup.jpg
                                            >
                                            > best regards,
                                            > dan

                                            Dan and Val, this is the very significant painting in which the
                                            proof is given, in visual form, that Christ had put the disciples in
                                            a kind of dreamy clairvoyant state of consciousness. So to buffer
                                            them from the awesome reality of what was about to occur.

                                            According to what Steiner says in "The Fifth Gospel", it was Peter
                                            who was most buffered, and that is why his confused state of mind
                                            made him deny Christ three times before the cock crowed. It was
                                            because of what was instigated and depicted here in this painting.

                                            And Peter woke up and wept over what he had been told beforehand.
                                            He remembered it in waking consciousness. The spell had been
                                            broken. Henceforth, he saw it all. I mean all.

                                            Steve
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