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Fwd: Rabbi Gershom on Cyanide in the Holocaust

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  • tmasthenes13
    See AT post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/33096 for context and more about Holocaust victims reincarnating. ...
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 3, 2007
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      See AT post
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/33096
      for context and more about Holocaust victims reincarnating.

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
      <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:


      One of the more controversial assertions of Rudolf Steiner is that death
      by cyanide poisoning results not only in death of the body, but also a
      shattering of the soul and spirit so profound that there is no hope of
      the soul reincarnating.

      When Rabbi Gershom toured Europe after his first two books were
      translated into German, he kept getting questioned by anthroposophists
      about this cyanide issue because it directly contradicted the whole idea
      that Holocaust victims would reincarnate and do so as quickly as
      possible.

      I post below a section of the Preface to the German edition that I
      translated because of the amazingly simple and elegant way that Rabbi
      Gershom answered the question by going to the German original text.

      Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to post here, but
      there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was aided by a
      mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him out of the
      blue and provided him with the Steiner text.

      Since Paulina Leonard wrote in 2004 about her strong karmic connection
      with Rabbi Gershom, I wonder if this unidentified woman he writes about
      was Paulina Leonard. Does any one know about this incident?
      Tom




      http://pinenet.com/~rooster/articles.html
      <http://pinenet.com/%7Erooster/articles.html>

      ======================================

      Gershom's Preface to the German edition
      <http://www.pinenet.com/rooster/preface1.html>

      This is the special Preface which Reb Gershom wrote for the German
      edition, which combines Beyond the Ashes and From Ashes to Healing in
      one volume, entitled Kehren die Opfer des Holocaust Wieder? (Are the
      Victims of the Holocaust coming back again?) The Preface includes some
      thoughts and experiences from his trip to Germany, his visit to
      Buchenwald, and a discussion of the teaching of Rudolf Steiner on the
      effects (if any) of death by cyanide on the reincarnation of the soul.

      http://upstel.net/~rooster/preface2.html
      <http://upstel.net/%7Erooster/preface2.html>

      ========================================

      "When I was in Berlin, several Anthroposophists asked me: "How can
      you be talking in your books about cases of reincarnated souls who were
      killed in gas chambers, if potassium cyanide (KCN) destroys the soul
      forever?" I did not understand this question. From the Jewish viewpoint,
      the soul is eternal and can never be destroyed, except — God forbid!
      — through the will of God. The manner of earthly death cannot affect
      the further existence of the soul because the body is only a temporary
      garment. Therefore death by potassium cyanide should not be in any
      different from any other kind of death.

      Later someone explained to me that Rudolf Steiner, the founder of
      Anthroposophy, had said that ingesting potassium cyanide would dissolve
      the soul away completely, so that the soul would be scattered together
      with its dissipated bodily fragments into the universe and could no
      longer reincarnate.An anthroposophist even stated that, because
      potassium cyanide destroys the soul, then all my published cases of
      reincarnation could not possibly be victims of the Holocaust. He
      surmised that they were actually the souls of Nazis,who, during their
      "life review" after death, had identified themselves with their victims
      and now were reborn with memories that appeared to them as their own. I
      found this theory ridiculous and told him so. It simply does not fit
      with the details of the cases which I dealt with, and it seems tome an
      attempt to apply Steiner's statements about potassium cyanide in a
      dogmatic way.

      But the cyanide reference came up at each and every stop on my book
      tour. When I returned to the United States, I wanted to uncover the
      source in order to determine exactly what Steiner had said about
      potassium cyanide.This was more difficult than I had expected because
      the appropriate lecture had not yet been translated into English. Most
      American Anthroposophists had never heard of this statement. But God
      obviously guided me regarding this question,because right at the low
      point of my frustrated investigations, a woman,completely unknown to me,
      called me "from out of the blue" and asked me whether or not I had ever
      heard this statement of Steiner's.

      So with her help, I succeeded in finding the quotation which reads as
      follows:

      "But if you poison yourself [please note the use of the reflexive
      pronoun "yourself"] by potassium cyanide, then the soul has the
      intention of being carried away everywhere with each bodily particle and
      in particular to expand in the nitrogen and disperse into the entire
      universe.That is the real death of soul and spirit."

      (Rudolf Steiner, "Man and World. The Effects of the Spirit in
      Nature," GA 351, Dornach 1988.)

      The use of the reflexive pronoun "sich" [yourself, oneself]
      – "to poison oneself " – means to me that the issue is
      about suicide and not about murder victims in a gas chamber. Indeed you
      may note that Steiner says in the same excerpt that the soul that
      poisons itself with potassium cyanide has the intention of dispersing
      itself throughout the universe. This also refers to suicide, not murder.

      In my capacity as rabbi, I have had many dealings with suicidal people,
      who not only want to die, but also wish to completely extinguish their
      existence. People who want to commit suicide actually do not believe in
      a life after death and they expect their individual consciousness to
      cease when they kill themselves. There are people who in their deepest
      depression really wish that their souls would utterly dissolve into the
      universe forever.So someone could take potassium cyanide because it
      works fast and leads without fail to death.

      But the Holocaust victims who were killed by Zyklon-B gas (which
      contains potassium cyanide) did not commit suicide and they also did not
      want to die. They had the desperate will to survive by all means and
      they made a solemn vow to report to the world what had happened there.
      So strong was this will to survive that they often wanted to be reborn
      as quickly as possible with their memories of the Holocaust intact.
      Others who were not reborn immediately sometimes lingered in the
      location of the atrocities, thus becoming earth bound — also in
      order to give witness.

      Other Holocaust victims regarded their death as "Kiddush
      ha-Shem"(a Jewish form of martyrdom through persecution) and they
      expected to go straight to heaven. But nowhere do we find in the annals
      of the Holocaust reports of Jews, who, after they had been murdered,
      wanted to dissolve their eternal souls into the universe. Steiner's
      statement about potassium cyanide does not apply to the victims of the
      Holocaust at all.

      =================================



      THE GERMAN ORIGINAL

      Als ich in Berlinwar, fragten mich verschiedene Anthroposophen: «Wie
      kann es sich bei den Fällenin Ihren Büchern um
      wiederverkörperte Seelen handeln, die in den Gaskammern umsLeben
      gekommen sind, wenn doch Zyankali die Seele für immer
      zerstört?» Ichverstand diese Frage nicht. Aus jüdischer Sicht
      ist die Seele ewig und kann niezerstört werden, außer – was
      der Himmel verhüten möge – durch den WillenGottes. Die Art des
      irdischen Todes kann das Weiterleben der Seele nichtbeeinflussen, weil
      der Körper nur ein vorübergehendes Kleid ist. Deshalb sollteder
      Tod durch Zyankali nicht anders sein als sonst ein Tod.

      Später wurde mirerklärt, Rudolf Steiner, der Begründer der
      Anthroposophie, habe gesagt, daß dieEinnahme von Zyankali die Seele
      völlig auflöse, so daß diese zusammen mitKörperteilchen im
      Weltall zerstreut werde und sich nicht mehr inkarnierenkönne. Ein
      Anthroposoph meinte sogar, weil Zyankali die Seele zerstöre,
      könntendie von mir dargestellten Fälle von Reinkarnation gar nicht
      Holocaust-Opfersein. Er vermutete, daß es sich um Seelen von Nazis
      handle, die sich währendihrer «Lebensrückschau» nach dem Tod
      mit ihren Opfern identifiziert hatten undnun mit Erinnerungen
      wiedergeboren wurden, die ihnen als die eigenenerschienen. Ich fand
      diese Theorie lächerlich und sagte es ihm. Sie paßt nichtmit den
      Einzelheiten der Fälle zusammen, mit denen ich zu tun hatte,
      undscheint mir ein Versuch, Steiners Aussagen über Zyankali in
      dogmatischer Weisezur Anwendung zu bringen.

      Doch die Sachemit dem Zyankali kam in jeder Versammlung auf meiner
      Tournee zur Sprache. Alsich in die Vereinigten Staaten zurückkehrte,
      wollte ich die Quelle aufsuchen,um festzustellen, was Steiner genau
      über Zyankali gesagt hatte. Dies warschwieriger, als ich erwartet
      hatte, weil der entsprechende Vortrag noch nichtauf englisch
      übersetzt war. Die meisten amerikanischen Anthroposophen hattenvon
      dieser Aussage noch gar nie gehört. Doch Gott hat mich in bezug auf
      dieseFrage offensichtlich geführt, denn mitten in meinen
      entmutigendenNachforschungen rief mich eine mir völlig unbekannte
      Frau «aus dem Blauenheraus» an und fragte, ob ich je von dieser
      Aussage Steiners gehörte hätte.

      Mit ihrer Hilfegelang es mir, das Zitat zu finden, das folgendermaßen
      lautet:

      «Wenn Sie aberdurch Zyankali sich vergiften [beachten Sie bitte den
      Gebrauch des Reflexivpronomens‹sich›], dann hat die Seele die
      Absicht, überall mit jedem Körperteilchenmitzugehen, und
      namentlich sich auszubreiten im Stickstoff und sich aufzulösenim
      Weltenall. Das ist der wirkliche Tod von Seele und Geist.» (Rudolf
      Steiner, Menschund Welt. Das Wirken des Geistes in der Natur,
      Gesamtausgabe Nr. 351,Dornach 1988.)

      Der Gebrauch desReflexivpronomens «sich» – sich vergiften
      – heißt für mich, daß an dieserStelle von Selbstmord und
      nicht von einem Mordopfer in einer Gaskammer die Redeist. Beachten Sie
      auch, daß Steiner im selben Abschnitt sagt, die Seele, diesich mit
      Zyankali vergiftet, hat die Absicht, sich im Weltenall
      aufzulösen.Auch dies weist auf Selbstmord hin, nicht auf Mord.

      In meinerTätigkeit als Rabbi hatte ich mit selbstmordgefährdeten
      Menschen zu tun, dienicht nur sterben, sondern ihre Existenz ganz
      auslöschen wollten. Tatsächlichglauben Menschen, die Selbstmord
      begehen wollen, nicht an ein Leben nach demTod und erwarten, daß ihr
      individuelles Bewußtsein aufhört, wenn sie sichgetötet haben.
      Es gibt Menschen, die in ihrer tiefen Niedergeschlagenheitwirklich
      wünschen, ihre Seele möge sich für immer im Weltall
      auflösen. Sojemand könnte zu Zyankali greifen, weil es schnell
      wirkt und sicher zum Todführt.



      Die Holocaust-Opferhingegen, die durch Zyklon-B-Gas (das Zyankali
      enthält) getötet wurden,verübten nicht Selbstmord und wollten
      auch nicht sterben. Sie hatten denverzweifelten Willen, mit allen
      Mitteln zu überleben, und sie gelobten, derWelt zu berichten, was
      geschehen war. So stark war dieser Wille, daß sie oft soschnell wie
      möglich wiedergeboren werden wollten, mit intakten Erinnerungen anden
      Holocaust. Jene, die nicht unmittelbar wiedergeboren wurden,
      bliebenmanchmal in der Gegend der Greueltaten an die Erde gebunden –
      auch wieder umZeugnis abzulegen.

      AndereHolocaust-Opfer betrachteten ihren Tod als Kiddusch ha-Shem
      (einejüdische Form von Martyrium durch Verfolgung) und erwarteten,
      direkt in denHimmel zu gelangen. Aber nirgends finden wir in den Annalen
      des HolocaustBerichte von Juden, die, nachdem sie ermordet worden waren,
      ihre ewigen Seelenim Weltall auflösen wollten. Steiners Aussage
      über Zyankali gilt nicht für dieOpfer des Holocaust.

      =============================

      --- End forwarded message ---
    • Stephen Hale
      But if you poison yourself [please note the use of the reflexive pronoun yourself ] by potassium cyanide, then the soul has the intention of being carried
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        "But if you poison yourself [please note the use of the reflexive
        pronoun "yourself"] by potassium cyanide, then the soul has the
        intention of being carried away everywhere with each bodily particle
        and in particular to expand in the nitrogen and disperse into the
        entire universe.That is the real death of soul and spirit."

        (Rudolf Steiner, "Man and World. The Effects of the Spirit in
        Nature," GA 351, Dornach 1988.)

        So, could six million Jews have all had the same desire to kill
        themselves rather than suffer the atrocities of the Nazi regime? Or
        rather, what would the effects be of potassium cyanide being dispersed
        to the extent of killing some six million Jews, if the estimates are
        correct? Bondarev addresses this quite specifically in the book that
        got him excommed from the GAS in 1998.

        Maybe Steiner was referring to his own poisoning, and the hope of the
        occultists that he would effectively be annihilated forever. Maybe he
        had a premonition about it. Of course, he and his sidekick, Ita Wegman
        quickly mixed up the antidote in order for anthroposophic medicine to
        be one of the accomplishments of the last nine months.

        Steve
      • jmn36210
        Tom wrote: Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to post here, but there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was aided by a mysterious
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment

           

          Tom wrote:
           
          "Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to post here, but
          there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was aided by a
          mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him out of the
          blue and provided him with the Steiner text.

          Since Paulina Leonard wrote in 2004 about her strong karmic connection
          with Rabbi Gershom, I wonder if this unidentified woman he writes about
          was Paulina Leonard. Does any one know about this incident?"
           
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           
           
          Er...Short Memory Syndrome, Tom?
           
          Paulina had to break a promise...in order to respond to one of your posts
          that caused an uproar on the *anthropos-views* list, back in January 1999.
           
          Paulina talked about a "violation of privacy" --- remember?
           
          Anyway, Paulina wrote in her response:
           
          "In regard to the cyanide issue, resolution of this matter came about for
          me some considerable time ago in the summer of 1997 through personal
          contact with Rabbi Gershom. His first german edition book (97) has a
          forward wherein he mentions this and how I was able to assist him in
          obtaining the german lecture on the cyanide question."
           
          In memory of Paulina,
          Jean-Marc

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
          >
          > See AT post
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/33096
          > for context and more about Holocaust victims reincarnating.
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
          > TomBuoyed@ wrote:
          >
          >
          > One of the more controversial assertions of Rudolf Steiner is that death
          > by cyanide poisoning results not only in death of the body, but also a
          > shattering of the soul and spirit so profound that there is no hope of
          > the soul reincarnating.
          >
          > When Rabbi Gershom toured Europe after his first two books were
          > translated into German, he kept getting questioned by anthroposophists
          > about this cyanide issue because it directly contradicted the whole idea
          > that Holocaust victims would reincarnate and do so as quickly as
          > possible.
          >
          > I post below a section of the Preface to the German edition that I
          > translated because of the amazingly simple and elegant way that Rabbi
          > Gershom answered the question by going to the German original text.
          >
          > Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to post here, but
          > there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was aided by a
          > mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him out of the
          > blue and provided him with the Steiner text.
          >
          > Since Paulina Leonard wrote in 2004 about her strong karmic connection
          > with Rabbi Gershom, I wonder if this unidentified woman he writes about
          > was Paulina Leonard. Does any one know about this incident?
          > Tom
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > http://pinenet.com/~rooster/articles.html
          > <http://pinenet.com/%7Erooster/articles.html>
          >
          > ======================================
          >
          > Gershom's Preface to the German edition
          > <http://www.pinenet.com/rooster/preface1.html>
          >
          > This is the special Preface which Reb Gershom wrote for the German
          > edition, which combines Beyond the Ashes and From Ashes to Healing in
          > one volume, entitled Kehren die Opfer des Holocaust Wieder? (Are the
          > Victims of the Holocaust coming back again?) The Preface includes some
          > thoughts and experiences from his trip to Germany, his visit to
          > Buchenwald, and a discussion of the teaching of Rudolf Steiner on the
          > effects (if any) of death by cyanide on the reincarnation of the soul.
          >
          > http://upstel.net/~rooster/preface2.html
          > <http://upstel.net/%7Erooster/preface2.html>
          >
          > ========================================
          >
          > "When I was in Berlin, several Anthroposophists asked me: "How can
          > you be talking in your books about cases of reincarnated souls who were
          > killed in gas chambers, if potassium cyanide (KCN) destroys the soul
          > forever?" I did not understand this question. From the Jewish viewpoint,
          > the soul is eternal and can never be destroyed, except — God forbid!
          > — through the will of God. The manner of earthly death cannot affect
          > the further existence of the soul because the body is only a temporary
          > garment. Therefore death by potassium cyanide should not be in any
          > different from any other kind of death.
          >
          > Later someone explained to me that Rudolf Steiner, the founder of
          > Anthroposophy, had said that ingesting potassium cyanide would dissolve
          > the soul away completely, so that the soul would be scattered together
          > with its dissipated bodily fragments into the universe and could no
          > longer reincarnate.An anthroposophist even stated that, because
          > potassium cyanide destroys the soul, then all my published cases of
          > reincarnation could not possibly be victims of the Holocaust. He
          > surmised that they were actually the souls of Nazis,who, during their
          > "life review" after death, had identified themselves with their victims
          > and now were reborn with memories that appeared to them as their own. I
          > found this theory ridiculous and told him so. It simply does not fit
          > with the details of the cases which I dealt with, and it seems tome an
          > attempt to apply Steiner's statements about potassium cyanide in a
          > dogmatic way.
          >
          > But the cyanide reference came up at each and every stop on my book
          > tour. When I returned to the United States, I wanted to uncover the
          > source in order to determine exactly what Steiner had said about
          > potassium cyanide.This was more difficult than I had expected because
          > the appropriate lecture had not yet been translated into English. Most
          > American Anthroposophists had never heard of this statement. But God
          > obviously guided me regarding this question,because right at the low
          > point of my frustrated investigations, a woman,completely unknown to me,
          > called me "from out of the blue" and asked me whether or not I had ever
          > heard this statement of Steiner's.
          >
          > So with her help, I succeeded in finding the quotation which reads as
          > follows:
          >
          > "But if you poison yourself [please note the use of the reflexive
          > pronoun "yourself"] by potassium cyanide, then the soul has the
          > intention of being carried away everywhere with each bodily particle and
          > in particular to expand in the nitrogen and disperse into the entire
          > universe.That is the real death of soul and spirit."
          >
          > (Rudolf Steiner, "Man and World. The Effects of the Spirit in
          > Nature," GA 351, Dornach 1988.)
          >
          > The use of the reflexive pronoun "sich" [yourself, oneself]
          > – "to poison oneself " – means to me that the issue is
          > about suicide and not about murder victims in a gas chamber. Indeed you
          > may note that Steiner says in the same excerpt that the soul that
          > poisons itself with potassium cyanide has the intention of dispersing
          > itself throughout the universe. This also refers to suicide, not murder.
          >
          > In my capacity as rabbi, I have had many dealings with suicidal people,
          > who not only want to die, but also wish to completely extinguish their
          > existence. People who want to commit suicide actually do not believe in
          > a life after death and they expect their individual consciousness to
          > cease when they kill themselves. There are people who in their deepest
          > depression really wish that their souls would utterly dissolve into the
          > universe forever.So someone could take potassium cyanide because it
          > works fast and leads without fail to death.
          >
          > But the Holocaust victims who were killed by Zyklon-B gas (which
          > contains potassium cyanide) did not commit suicide and they also did not
          > want to die. They had the desperate will to survive by all means and
          > they made a solemn vow to report to the world what had happened there.
          > So strong was this will to survive that they often wanted to be reborn
          > as quickly as possible with their memories of the Holocaust intact.
          > Others who were not reborn immediately sometimes lingered in the
          > location of the atrocities, thus becoming earth bound — also in
          > order to give witness.
          >
          > Other Holocaust victims regarded their death as "Kiddush
          > ha-Shem"(a Jewish form of martyrdom through persecution) and they
          > expected to go straight to heaven. But nowhere do we find in the annals
          > of the Holocaust reports of Jews, who, after they had been murdered,
          > wanted to dissolve their eternal souls into the universe. Steiner's
          > statement about potassium cyanide does not apply to the victims of the
          > Holocaust at all.
          >
          > =================================
          >
          >
          >
          > THE GERMAN ORIGINAL
          >
          > Als ich in Berlinwar, fragten mich verschiedene Anthroposophen: «Wie
          > kann es sich bei den Fällenin Ihren Büchern um
          > wiederverkörperte Seelen handeln, die in den Gaskammern umsLeben
          > gekommen sind, wenn doch Zyankali die Seele für immer
          > zerstört?» Ichverstand diese Frage nicht. Aus jüdischer Sicht
          > ist die Seele ewig und kann niezerstört werden, außer – was
          > der Himmel verhüten möge – durch den WillenGottes. Die Art des
          > irdischen Todes kann das Weiterleben der Seele nichtbeeinflussen, weil
          > der Körper nur ein vorübergehendes Kleid ist. Deshalb sollteder
          > Tod durch Zyankali nicht anders sein als sonst ein Tod.
          >
          > Später wurde mirerklärt, Rudolf Steiner, der Begründer der
          > Anthroposophie, habe gesagt, daß dieEinnahme von Zyankali die Seele
          > völlig auflöse, so daß diese zusammen mitKörperteilchen im
          > Weltall zerstreut werde und sich nicht mehr inkarnierenkönne. Ein
          > Anthroposoph meinte sogar, weil Zyankali die Seele zerstöre,
          > könntendie von mir dargestellten Fälle von Reinkarnation gar nicht
          > Holocaust-Opfersein. Er vermutete, daß es sich um Seelen von Nazis
          > handle, die sich währendihrer «Lebensrückschau» nach dem Tod
          > mit ihren Opfern identifiziert hatten undnun mit Erinnerungen
          > wiedergeboren wurden, die ihnen als die eigenenerschienen. Ich fand
          > diese Theorie lächerlich und sagte es ihm. Sie paßt nichtmit den
          > Einzelheiten der Fälle zusammen, mit denen ich zu tun hatte,
          > undscheint mir ein Versuch, Steiners Aussagen über Zyankali in
          > dogmatischer Weisezur Anwendung zu bringen.
          >
          > Doch die Sachemit dem Zyankali kam in jeder Versammlung auf meiner
          > Tournee zur Sprache. Alsich in die Vereinigten Staaten zurückkehrte,
          > wollte ich die Quelle aufsuchen,um festzustellen, was Steiner genau
          > über Zyankali gesagt hatte. Dies warschwieriger, als ich erwartet
          > hatte, weil der entsprechende Vortrag noch nichtauf englisch
          > übersetzt war. Die meisten amerikanischen Anthroposophen hattenvon
          > dieser Aussage noch gar nie gehört. Doch Gott hat mich in bezug auf
          > dieseFrage offensichtlich geführt, denn mitten in meinen
          > entmutigendenNachforschungen rief mich eine mir völlig unbekannte
          > Frau «aus dem Blauenheraus» an und fragte, ob ich je von dieser
          > Aussage Steiners gehörte hätte.
          >
          > Mit ihrer Hilfegelang es mir, das Zitat zu finden, das folgendermaßen
          > lautet:
          >
          > «Wenn Sie aberdurch Zyankali sich vergiften [beachten Sie bitte den
          > Gebrauch des Reflexivpronomens‹sich›], dann hat die Seele die
          > Absicht, überall mit jedem Körperteilchenmitzugehen, und
          > namentlich sich auszubreiten im Stickstoff und sich aufzulösenim
          > Weltenall. Das ist der wirkliche Tod von Seele und Geist.» (Rudolf
          > Steiner, Menschund Welt. Das Wirken des Geistes in der Natur,
          > Gesamtausgabe Nr. 351,Dornach 1988.)
          >
          > Der Gebrauch desReflexivpronomens «sich» – sich vergiften
          > – heißt für mich, daß an dieserStelle von Selbstmord und
          > nicht von einem Mordopfer in einer Gaskammer die Redeist. Beachten Sie
          > auch, daß Steiner im selben Abschnitt sagt, die Seele, diesich mit
          > Zyankali vergiftet, hat die Absicht, sich im Weltenall
          > aufzulösen.Auch dies weist auf Selbstmord hin, nicht auf Mord.
          >
          > In meinerTätigkeit als Rabbi hatte ich mit selbstmordgefährdeten
          > Menschen zu tun, dienicht nur sterben, sondern ihre Existenz ganz
          > auslöschen wollten. Tatsächlichglauben Menschen, die Selbstmord
          > begehen wollen, nicht an ein Leben nach demTod und erwarten, daß ihr
          > individuelles Bewußtsein aufhört, wenn sie sichgetötet haben.
          > Es gibt Menschen, die in ihrer tiefen Niedergeschlagenheitwirklich
          > wünschen, ihre Seele möge sich für immer im Weltall
          > auflösen. Sojemand könnte zu Zyankali greifen, weil es schnell
          > wirkt und sicher zum Todführt.
          >
          >
          >
          > Die Holocaust-Opferhingegen, die durch Zyklon-B-Gas (das Zyankali
          > enthält) getötet wurden,verübten nicht Selbstmord und wollten
          > auch nicht sterben. Sie hatten denverzweifelten Willen, mit allen
          > Mitteln zu überleben, und sie gelobten, derWelt zu berichten, was
          > geschehen war. So stark war dieser Wille, daß sie oft soschnell wie
          > möglich wiedergeboren werden wollten, mit intakten Erinnerungen anden
          > Holocaust. Jene, die nicht unmittelbar wiedergeboren wurden,
          > bliebenmanchmal in der Gegend der Greueltaten an die Erde gebunden –
          > auch wieder umZeugnis abzulegen.
          >
          > AndereHolocaust-Opfer betrachteten ihren Tod als Kiddusch ha-Shem
          > (einejüdische Form von Martyrium durch Verfolgung) und erwarteten,
          > direkt in denHimmel zu gelangen. Aber nirgends finden wir in den Annalen
          > des HolocaustBerichte von Juden, die, nachdem sie ermordet worden waren,
          > ihre ewigen Seelenim Weltall auflösen wollten. Steiners Aussage
          > über Zyankali gilt nicht für dieOpfer des Holocaust.
          >
          > =============================
          >
          > --- End forwarded message ---
          >

        • tmasthenes13
          ... post here, but there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was aided by a mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him out of the blue
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "jmn36210" <jmnguyen@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Tom wrote: "Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to
            post here, but there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was
            aided by a mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him
            out of the blue and provided him with the Steiner text.
            >
            > Since Paulina Leonard wrote in 2004 about her strong karmic
            connectionwith Rabbi Gershom, I wonder if this unidentified woman he
            writes about was Paulina Leonard. Does any one know about this
            incident?"
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------\

            Er...Short Memory Syndrome, Tom? Paulina had to break a promise...in
            order to respond to one of your posts that caused an
            uproar on the *anthropos-views* list, back in January 1999. Paulina
            talked about a "violation of privacy" --- remember? Anyway, Paulina
            wrote in her response:

            "In regard to the cyanide issue, resolution of this matter came about
            for me some considerable time ago in the summer of 1997 through
            personal contact with Rabbi Gershom. His first German edition book
            ('97) has a forward wherein he mentions this and how I was
            able to assist him in obtaining the German lecture on the cyanide
            question."

            In memory of Paulina,

            Jean-Marc
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------\


            Frogman Jerry! I would kiss you for this, but I won't because you'd
            turn into a pauper, not a prince.

            Thank you so much for finding this bit of Steiner Internet history.
            Hell, Froggie, I just survived my 2nd Saturn return. I'm 59 years old
            now and I don't have premonitions anymore. Instead, I now have dim
            postmonitions like I had above about Paulina.

            I'm so happy that you could confirm that indeed it was Paulina who was
            the mystery woman who helped Rabbi Gershom with the German Steiner text.

            And I'm even more happy that it was my egregious misbehavior that
            actually caused Paulina to go public with this important information.
            Just think, Jean-Marc, if I had behaved myself back then, then Paulina
            would have gone to her grave with this secret and we might not be
            having all this fun with the Holocaust, cyanide and the stigmata that
            we are having now!

            Now as for any of those posts of mine that would have caused such an
            uproar on Anthropos-Views in 1999, I honestly can't remember which one
            it would be. I do remember there were many. But, with your coy
            teasing, you are really titillating my postmonition memory.

            I'll leave it up to your discretion whether or not to reveal it. In
            fact, it might be fun to keep me guessing.

            I do vaguely recall an uproar about the post I made charting Rudolf
            Steiner's 7 incarnations. I believe I spent an inordinate amount of
            verbiage on his first incarnation as Enkidu, describing in gleeful
            detail his 7 day and 7 night sessions of mutual fructification with
            the Temple Harlot sent by Gilgamesh as a "week long fuck-a-thon."

            But I don't think that was the one that really pushed Paulina over the
            edge.

            At any rate, let us take this occasion as you say to honor the memory
            of Paulina once again and realize that she is with us in this
            discussion about the Holocaust. Make no mistake about it people.

            You know, she died 50 days ago today. That's a Pentecost you know!
            Tongues of fire and all that; speaking different languages and
            mutually understanding them.

            I would like to quote from a lecture RS gave in Paris on May 26, 1914,
            called "The Blessings of the Dead" GA 154 (Found today in "Staying
            Connected" pg. 98)

            ". . . imagine that someone who has the task of developing certain
            ideas here on earth learns how to encounter a spiritual being, in this
            case the soul of a dead person, who adds her thinking --- now modified
            by the spiritual world almost into WILLING THAT THINKS and THINKING
            THAT FEELS --- to the living person's thinking and feeling. The
            intelligent ideas that the soul in the spiritual world wants to
            produce emerge in the human being on earth.

            The dead possess feeling and willing just like they did on earth, as
            well as other soul capacities not developed on earth. Therefore, the
            dead have the desire to connect their thinking and feeling with human
            thoughts. That is why they unite with the person on earth.

            As the thinking, feeling and willing of the dead penetrate the living
            person, ideas are stimulated. Thus, the dead can experience these
            ideas, something they could not do on their own. That is why they
            communicate with human beings on earth."
            -----------------------
            And from page 100:
            ----------------------
            "The example of my clairvoyant experiences with a dead person shows
            that intelligence and thinking are specific qualities of souls living
            in a physical body, of human beings on earth. The deceased [woman]
            wanted to connect herself with a [living] human being so that what
            lived in her IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, SUPERSENSIBLE WAY could take
            the form of intelligent thoughts. The dead individual and the living
            person were thinking their thoughts together in the head of the
            latter, as it were."
            ===============================================

            I have a suggestion that we imagine Paulina as taking part in these
            discussions.

            Tom
          • jmn36210
            Tom wrote: Frogman Jerry! I would kiss you for this,... J-M: Tom, are you out of your mind --- or what? As a predator, you re not supposed to get
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

               

              Tom wrote:
               
              "Frogman Jerry! I would kiss you for this,..." <snip>
               
              J-M:
              Tom, are you out of your mind --- or what?
              As a predator, you're not supposed to get overemotional at the sight of
              your pet prey: a coy, teasing, sneaky, cheeky, playful [and cute!] little rodent
              and cheese freak as myself :-)
               
              Emergency prescription: 3 'Tom & Jerry' cartoons daily...
               
              Tom wrote:
               
              "Just think, Jean-Marc, if I had behaved myself back then,..." <snip>
               
              J-M:
              Tom, are you trying to talk me into thinking the unthinkable? :-)
              I'm an Anthro mouse, remember?
               
              "He who continuously thinks about things that do not exist ends up
              living in a dream world" [RS - October 27, 1923]
               
               
              Tom wrote:
               
              "Hell, Froggie, I just survived my 2nd Saturn return. I'm 59 years old
              now and I don't have premonitions anymore."
               
              J-M:
              No premonitions anymore? And postmonitions that are poor?
              It sure sounds like Alzheimer is knocking at your door! :-)
              I mean I gave you a super big mega giant clue! --- and you "honestly can't
              remember" which post of yours prompted Paulina to complain about a
              "violation of privacy"?...
              No, I won't reveal it.
               
              And, honestly, I am rather skeptical about Paulina being enthusiastic about
              a *public* discussion on the *cyanide* issue...even today.
              This assumption of mine is based on our private correspondence from 1999.
              But I won't reveal that either...
               
              Cheers,
              Jean-Marc

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "jmn36210" jmnguyen@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Tom wrote: "Such a correction of the assertion is news enough to
              > post here, but there is even more reason because Rabbi Gershom was
              > aided by a mysterious unidentified woman in the USA who contacted him
              > out of the blue and provided him with the Steiner text.
              > >
              > > Since Paulina Leonard wrote in 2004 about her strong karmic
              > connectionwith Rabbi Gershom, I wonder if this unidentified woman he
              > writes about was Paulina Leonard. Does any one know about this
              > incident?"
              > >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
              >
              > Er...Short Memory Syndrome, Tom? Paulina had to break a promise...in
              > order to respond to one of your posts that caused an
              > uproar on the *anthropos-views* list, back in January 1999. Paulina
              > talked about a "violation of privacy" --- remember? Anyway, Paulina
              > wrote in her response:
              >
              > "In regard to the cyanide issue, resolution of this matter came about
              > for me some considerable time ago in the summer of 1997 through
              > personal contact with Rabbi Gershom. His first German edition book
              > ('97) has a forward wherein he mentions this and how I was
              > able to assist him in obtaining the German lecture on the cyanide
              > question."
              >
              > In memory of Paulina,
              >
              > Jean-Marc
              > >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
              >
              >
              > Frogman Jerry! I would kiss you for this, but I won't because you'd
              > turn into a pauper, not a prince.
              >
              > Thank you so much for finding this bit of Steiner Internet history.
              > Hell, Froggie, I just survived my 2nd Saturn return. I'm 59 years old
              > now and I don't have premonitions anymore. Instead, I now have dim
              > postmonitions like I had above about Paulina.
              >
              > I'm so happy that you could confirm that indeed it was Paulina who was
              > the mystery woman who helped Rabbi Gershom with the German Steiner text.
              >
              > And I'm even more happy that it was my egregious misbehavior that
              > actually caused Paulina to go public with this important information.
              > Just think, Jean-Marc, if I had behaved myself back then, then Paulina
              > would have gone to her grave with this secret and we might not be
              > having all this fun with the Holocaust, cyanide and the stigmata that
              > we are having now!
              >
              > Now as for any of those posts of mine that would have caused such an
              > uproar on Anthropos-Views in 1999, I honestly can't remember which one
              > it would be. I do remember there were many. But, with your coy
              > teasing, you are really titillating my postmonition memory.
              >
              > I'll leave it up to your discretion whether or not to reveal it. In
              > fact, it might be fun to keep me guessing.
              >
              > I do vaguely recall an uproar about the post I made charting Rudolf
              > Steiner's 7 incarnations. I believe I spent an inordinate amount of
              > verbiage on his first incarnation as Enkidu, describing in gleeful
              > detail his 7 day and 7 night sessions of mutual fructification with
              > the Temple Harlot sent by Gilgamesh as a "week long fuck-a-thon."
              >
              > But I don't think that was the one that really pushed Paulina over the
              > edge.
              >
              > At any rate, let us take this occasion as you say to honor the memory
              > of Paulina once again and realize that she is with us in this
              > discussion about the Holocaust. Make no mistake about it people.
              >
              > You know, she died 50 days ago today. That's a Pentecost you know!
              > Tongues of fire and all that; speaking different languages and
              > mutually understanding them.
              >
              > I would like to quote from a lecture RS gave in Paris on May 26, 1914,
              > called "The Blessings of the Dead" GA 154 (Found today in "Staying
              > Connected" pg. 98)
              >
              > ". . . imagine that someone who has the task of developing certain
              > ideas here on earth learns how to encounter a spiritual being, in this
              > case the soul of a dead person, who adds her thinking --- now modified
              > by the spiritual world almost into WILLING THAT THINKS and THINKING
              > THAT FEELS --- to the living person's thinking and feeling. The
              > intelligent ideas that the soul in the spiritual world wants to
              > produce emerge in the human being on earth.
              >
              > The dead possess feeling and willing just like they did on earth, as
              > well as other soul capacities not developed on earth. Therefore, the
              > dead have the desire to connect their thinking and feeling with human
              > thoughts. That is why they unite with the person on earth.
              >
              > As the thinking, feeling and willing of the dead penetrate the living
              > person, ideas are stimulated. Thus, the dead can experience these
              > ideas, something they could not do on their own. That is why they
              > communicate with human beings on earth."
              > -----------------------
              > And from page 100:
              > ----------------------
              > "The example of my clairvoyant experiences with a dead person shows
              > that intelligence and thinking are specific qualities of souls living
              > in a physical body, of human beings on earth. The deceased [woman]
              > wanted to connect herself with a [living] human being so that what
              > lived in her IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, SUPERSENSIBLE WAY could take
              > the form of intelligent thoughts. The dead individual and the living
              > person were thinking their thoughts together in the head of the
              > latter, as it were."
              > ===============================================
              >
              > I have a suggestion that we imagine Paulina as taking part in these
              > discussions.
              >
              > Tom
              >

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