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Re: [anthroposophy] circle, etc.

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  • Danny F.
    ... But yet, it s hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis... ... The will of the human being ... Best regards, Danny ===== Vide igitur, ne Lumen,
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 5, 2000
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      --- Sarah Cherry <sncherr@...> wrote:
      > At 11:47 AM -0500 11/02/00, elaine upton wrote:
      > >
      > >Somehow, within our common "western" "meme" or memetic system, there
      > seems
      > >the idea that clockwise is right, like left to right linearly, and
      > that it
      > >is purifying, and that counter (even as the word suggests) is
      > negative,
      > >muddying, clogging.
      >
      > I'm reminded here of the way we stir the biodynamic preps. First in
      > one direction, then in the other, making a vortex both ways and
      > creating a "chaos" of sorts in between. Of course, neither direction
      > is "bad" (or good) but it takes stirring both directions to release
      > of the life forces of the preparations.

      -------------
      But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...


      -------------


      The will of the human being
      > is called upon to persist in stirring through the chaos to create a
      > new form in the opposite direction. It's the entirety of this process
      >
      > that enlivens the preparations, not one part by itself.
      >
      > Life lessons here! We are constantly called upon to persist through
      > chaos of one sort or the other to create new forms. We are called
      > upon not to judge the chaos as "bad" or "good", simply in between
      > forms.
      >
      > Namaste,
      >
      > Sarah

      Best regards,
      Danny

      =====
      "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
      --Tractatus Aristotelis

      "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
      --William Blake

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    • Torben Zenth
      ... What s the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection? Torben Copenhagen
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 5, 2000
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        > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>

        > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...

        What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?

        Torben
        Copenhagen
      • Sarah Cherry
        ... Copenhagen Torben and All, There is no connection to stirring the BD preps and the Nazi use of the swastika. On the swastika in general, ere are two good
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 6, 2000
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          > > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>
          >
          > > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...
          >
          >What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?
          >
          >Torben
          Copenhagen


          Torben and All,

          There is no connection to stirring the BD preps and the Nazi use of
          the swastika.

          On the swastika in general, ere are two good sites containing a
          concise description of the history of the swastika and its (mis)use
          by the Nazi's.


          http://www.igc.apc.org/iearn/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/swastika.html

          http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm

          A friend just sent the article below on the swastika.

          Sarah
          ____________

          The English and German word SWASTIKA is derived from the Sanskrit word:
          SVASTIKAH, which means 'being fortunate'. The first part of the word,
          SVASTI-, can be divided into two parts: SU- 'good; well', and -ASTI-
          'is'. The -ASTIKAH part just means 'being'. The word is associated
          with auspicious things in India - - because it means 'auspicious'.
          About 2500 years ago, when Sakyumuni brought Buddhism to China from
          India, the Chinese also borrowed the swastika and its sense of
          auspiciousness. In China, the swastika is considered to be a Chinese
          character with the reading of WAN (in Mandarin). It is also thought
          to be equivalent to another Chinese character with the same
          pronunciation, which means 'ten thousand; a large number; all'

          The swastika symbol has been used for thousands of years among practically
          every group of humans on the planet. It was known to Germanic tribes
          as the "Cross of
          Thor", and it is interesting that the Nazis did not use that term,
          which is consistent with
          German history, but instead preferred to "steal" the Indian term
          "swastika". As the "Cross of Thor", the symbol was even brought to
          England by Scandinavian settlers in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, long
          before Hitler. Even more interesting, the sign has been found on
          Jewish temples from 2000 years ago in Palestine, so Hitler was
          (inadvertently?) "stealing" a Jewish symbol as well as an Indian one.
          In the Americas, the swastika was used by Native Americans in North,
          Central, and South America. Since the outer arms of the swastika can
          point either counterclockwise or clockwise, the swastika has been
          used as a counterpart to the Taiji, or Yin-Yang, symbol. If you look
          at the outer circle of the Falun Dafa symbol, you will see that
          there are 4 swastikas (of Buddhas' School origin) and 4 Taiji, or
          Yin-Yang, symbols (of Taoist origin). The Taiji are not black and
          white, as those colors are a very low level manifestation. Of the 4
          Taiji, 2 are red and black (from the Tao as generally regarded) and 2
          are red and blue (from the School of the Primordial Great Tao, which
          includes the Rare Cultivation Way).

          If you look at all the swastikas of the Falun Dafa symbol, you will
          see that their arms all point counterclockwise. However, since the
          Falun Dafa can be seen from above and below, as well as the 8
          directions indicated on its outer circle by the 4 Taiji and 4
          swastikas, the Falun Dafa swastikas can be perceived to be rotating
          either clockwise or absorb energy from the universe. While rotating
          counterclockwise, it can give off energy." In India, both clockwise
          and counterclockwise swastikas were used, with different meanings:
          the counterclockwise one is associated with the goddess Kali-Maya
          (mother of Buddha, associated with the Moon), and the clockwise one
          is associated with Ganesha (elephant-headed father of Buddha,
          associated with the Sun). Since the swastika is a simple symbol, it
          has been used, perhaps independently, by many human societies. One of
          the oldest known swastikas was painted on a paleolithic cave at least
          10,000 years ago.

          Here are some references with information about the swastika: Barbara
          G. Walker, THE WOMAN'S ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MYTHS AND SECRETS (1983), and
          THE WOMAN'S DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLS & SACRED OBJECTS (1988), both
          published by Harper & Row; James A. Michener, THE SOURCE; Ernest
          Klein, KLEIN'S COMPREHENSIVE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH
          LANGUAGE (Elsevier, 1971); Robert H. Mathews, MATHEWS'
          CHINESE-ENGLISH DICTIONARY (Harvard, 1966).

          http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/swas.html
        • Danny F.
          ... There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that everything is fine
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 7, 2000
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            --- Torben Zenth <science@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>
            >
            > > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the
            > Nazis...
            >
            > What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?
            >
            > Torben
            > Copenhagen


            There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
            (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that
            everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
            not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
            but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
            that when inverted represent a decadence and fall. That's what
            I meant by recallling the particular symbol of the swatiska. We
            know the Nazis and their occult connection and knowledge, no
            coincidence in the choice of swatiska going the other way round.

            Best regards,
            Danny


            =====
            "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
            --Tractatus Aristotelis

            "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
            --William Blake

            __________________________________________________
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          • Sarah Cherry
            ... Well, I m not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no means evil of itself.
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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              At 12:34 PM -0800 11/7/00, Danny F. wrote:
              >There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
              > (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that
              > everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
              > not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
              > but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
              > that when inverted represent a decadence and fall.


              Well, I'm not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise
              spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no
              means evil of itself. Instead, it was the energy of the Mother
              principle. The swastika became evil in the hands of the Nazi due to
              *human intent*.

              Warmly,

              Sarah
            • Danny F.
              ... I agree with you. Though, there are symbols that get loaded and perverted, by the human intent, and it last actually. There is still power in the nazi
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                --- Sarah Cherry <sncherr@...> wrote:
                > At 12:34 PM -0800 11/7/00, Danny F. wrote:
                > >There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
                > > (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed
                > that
                > > everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
                > > not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
                > > but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
                > > that when inverted represent a decadence and fall.
                >
                >
                > Well, I'm not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise
                > spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no
                > means evil of itself. Instead, it was the energy of the Mother
                > principle. The swastika became evil in the hands of the Nazi due to
                > *human intent*.
                >
                > Warmly,
                >
                > Sarah

                I agree with you.

                Though, there are symbols that get loaded and perverted,
                by the human intent, and it last actually. There is still power
                in the nazi gesture of the pointing of arm and hand for example,
                their clothing and countenance, there is a lasting effect that lives
                in the spiritual world as a "tank". There is such a thing as
                disempowering and empowering of everything, 'fashions' work in
                such a way, the fashion empower everything that comes to "mate"
                with it, while it disempower that which is not like. You could be
                a god, but if you live in the materialistic fashion that is around,
                you will not be seen for what you are, there is a kind of
                disempowerment in your mean of action directly on 'Man', there
                will be a repelling effect, a cynical(ripping), robbing on the
                soul, a disempowerment on that which is alive and holy, this is at
                the same time a step of initiation: the encounter with evil,
                a powerlessness.

                What I wrote actually "it's hard to forget the swatiska in that
                connection", was an instant reaction to the "everything is fine
                and good" whatever you do. I consider that it can actually be
                one of the danger for the 'neophyte' that comes in contact with
                'Hermetism' for example, for there is said that everything is good
                and works toward it, the first degree and simplistic understanding
                of that lead to indifference towards evil.

                We have to beware of the fashions of behaviour and styles for example,
                for the "inspiration" of a trend can be far from holy, and the
                "unenlighted" are like sponge in that regard.

                May the thinking come strong, because actually it is mostly
                experience from the sentient soul, Ahriman is glad to give
                the illusion of the intellect, but moslty still this is
                the sentient soul that humanity is stuck in, same thing
                for conciousness soul, it is experienced as a pressure on the
                sentient soul, it get very subconcious, powerful and blind
                as impulse; 'Man' get buried in the grave of the world.
                There's a seed that has to be awakened...
                A guarrantee, a pearl that has to be discovered and used.

                I myself trust the Ahriman's incarnation as to change the take,
                this will be tremendous exciting time for anthroposophists,
                the cards will be on the table then, we'll be able to play
                the real "game" better then: 'salvation'.

                Best regards,
                Danny

                =====
                "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
                --Tractatus Aristotelis

                "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                --William Blake

                __________________________________________________
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              • starmann77@aol.com
                Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do your eurythmy!
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                  Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are
                  qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do your
                  eurythmy!
                • Danny F.
                  ... Well I know that. But in terms of evil, no one of them can be attributed the quality evil in an intrinsic way. But who could say that an inverted
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                    --- starmann77@... wrote:
                    > Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are
                    > qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do
                    > your
                    > eurythmy!

                    Well I know that.

                    But in terms of evil, no one of them can be attributed the "quality"
                    'evil' in an intrinsic way. But who could say that an inverted
                    pentagram represent something good for example? There are things that
                    when inverted though becomes evil, for their inherent nature and
                    meaning "flip" the other way round, become upside down. Is not
                    something out of it's "regular" path, course, location, beforehand,
                    afterhand: an hindrance, an evil?

                    That's up to us if we can absorb the pressure of it and turn the
                    light on evermore. Many will prefer the dark "cave"...
                    "Go out from the middle of them" if they do not want light,
                    but stay close in case they change their mind.

                    As for the right or the left, I prefer the middle myself. :-)

                    Some might be like Lennon though, just sitting and watching the
                    wheels go round and round, and liking to watch them roll. :-)

                    When Ezekiel saw a wheel, was it turning left or right?
                    Was it a wheel within a wheel? :-)

                    More seriously though, if the wheel within the wheel for example
                    went out of it's axis to hit the other, maybe the one that got
                    hit and turning clockwise will have said to itself, this other
                    one that turns counterclockwise is an evil one. If it has been the
                    one turning clockwise to hit the other, it would have been the
                    opposite....

                    Moral of the story, in this case: relativity.

                    The wheel could have been shocked and hurt from the other one,
                    but maybe to find itself then in a better position after...


                    Time for eurythmy now...

                    Best regards,
                    Danny




                    =====
                    "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                    --William Blake

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