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  • Sarah Cherry
    ... I m reminded here of the way we stir the biodynamic preps. First in one direction, then in the other, making a vortex both ways and creating a chaos of
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 3, 2000
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      At 11:47 AM -0500 11/02/00, elaine upton wrote:
      >
      >Somehow, within our common "western" "meme" or memetic system, there seems
      >the idea that clockwise is right, like left to right linearly, and that it
      >is purifying, and that counter (even as the word suggests) is negative,
      >muddying, clogging.

      I'm reminded here of the way we stir the biodynamic preps. First in
      one direction, then in the other, making a vortex both ways and
      creating a "chaos" of sorts in between. Of course, neither direction
      is "bad" (or good) but it takes stirring both directions to release
      of the life forces of the preparations. The will of the human being
      is called upon to persist in stirring through the chaos to create a
      new form in the opposite direction. It's the entirety of this process
      that enlivens the preparations, not one part by itself.

      Life lessons here! We are constantly called upon to persist through
      chaos of one sort or the other to create new forms. We are called
      upon not to judge the chaos as "bad" or "good", simply in between
      forms.

      Namaste,

      Sarah
      >
    • sally
      We are called upon not to judge the chaos as bad or good , simply in between forms. there is some wisdom to live by. Sally
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 3, 2000
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        "We are called upon not to judge the chaos as "bad" or "good", simply
        in between forms."

        there is some wisdom to live by.

        Sally
      • Danny F.
        ... But yet, it s hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis... ... The will of the human being ... Best regards, Danny ===== Vide igitur, ne Lumen,
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 5, 2000
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          --- Sarah Cherry <sncherr@...> wrote:
          > At 11:47 AM -0500 11/02/00, elaine upton wrote:
          > >
          > >Somehow, within our common "western" "meme" or memetic system, there
          > seems
          > >the idea that clockwise is right, like left to right linearly, and
          > that it
          > >is purifying, and that counter (even as the word suggests) is
          > negative,
          > >muddying, clogging.
          >
          > I'm reminded here of the way we stir the biodynamic preps. First in
          > one direction, then in the other, making a vortex both ways and
          > creating a "chaos" of sorts in between. Of course, neither direction
          > is "bad" (or good) but it takes stirring both directions to release
          > of the life forces of the preparations.

          -------------
          But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...


          -------------


          The will of the human being
          > is called upon to persist in stirring through the chaos to create a
          > new form in the opposite direction. It's the entirety of this process
          >
          > that enlivens the preparations, not one part by itself.
          >
          > Life lessons here! We are constantly called upon to persist through
          > chaos of one sort or the other to create new forms. We are called
          > upon not to judge the chaos as "bad" or "good", simply in between
          > forms.
          >
          > Namaste,
          >
          > Sarah

          Best regards,
          Danny

          =====
          "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
          --Tractatus Aristotelis

          "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
          --William Blake

          __________________________________________________
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        • Torben Zenth
          ... What s the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection? Torben Copenhagen
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 5, 2000
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            > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>

            > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...

            What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?

            Torben
            Copenhagen
          • Sarah Cherry
            ... Copenhagen Torben and All, There is no connection to stirring the BD preps and the Nazi use of the swastika. On the swastika in general, ere are two good
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 6, 2000
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              > > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>
              >
              > > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the Nazis...
              >
              >What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?
              >
              >Torben
              Copenhagen


              Torben and All,

              There is no connection to stirring the BD preps and the Nazi use of
              the swastika.

              On the swastika in general, ere are two good sites containing a
              concise description of the history of the swastika and its (mis)use
              by the Nazi's.


              http://www.igc.apc.org/iearn/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/swastika.html

              http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm

              A friend just sent the article below on the swastika.

              Sarah
              ____________

              The English and German word SWASTIKA is derived from the Sanskrit word:
              SVASTIKAH, which means 'being fortunate'. The first part of the word,
              SVASTI-, can be divided into two parts: SU- 'good; well', and -ASTI-
              'is'. The -ASTIKAH part just means 'being'. The word is associated
              with auspicious things in India - - because it means 'auspicious'.
              About 2500 years ago, when Sakyumuni brought Buddhism to China from
              India, the Chinese also borrowed the swastika and its sense of
              auspiciousness. In China, the swastika is considered to be a Chinese
              character with the reading of WAN (in Mandarin). It is also thought
              to be equivalent to another Chinese character with the same
              pronunciation, which means 'ten thousand; a large number; all'

              The swastika symbol has been used for thousands of years among practically
              every group of humans on the planet. It was known to Germanic tribes
              as the "Cross of
              Thor", and it is interesting that the Nazis did not use that term,
              which is consistent with
              German history, but instead preferred to "steal" the Indian term
              "swastika". As the "Cross of Thor", the symbol was even brought to
              England by Scandinavian settlers in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, long
              before Hitler. Even more interesting, the sign has been found on
              Jewish temples from 2000 years ago in Palestine, so Hitler was
              (inadvertently?) "stealing" a Jewish symbol as well as an Indian one.
              In the Americas, the swastika was used by Native Americans in North,
              Central, and South America. Since the outer arms of the swastika can
              point either counterclockwise or clockwise, the swastika has been
              used as a counterpart to the Taiji, or Yin-Yang, symbol. If you look
              at the outer circle of the Falun Dafa symbol, you will see that
              there are 4 swastikas (of Buddhas' School origin) and 4 Taiji, or
              Yin-Yang, symbols (of Taoist origin). The Taiji are not black and
              white, as those colors are a very low level manifestation. Of the 4
              Taiji, 2 are red and black (from the Tao as generally regarded) and 2
              are red and blue (from the School of the Primordial Great Tao, which
              includes the Rare Cultivation Way).

              If you look at all the swastikas of the Falun Dafa symbol, you will
              see that their arms all point counterclockwise. However, since the
              Falun Dafa can be seen from above and below, as well as the 8
              directions indicated on its outer circle by the 4 Taiji and 4
              swastikas, the Falun Dafa swastikas can be perceived to be rotating
              either clockwise or absorb energy from the universe. While rotating
              counterclockwise, it can give off energy." In India, both clockwise
              and counterclockwise swastikas were used, with different meanings:
              the counterclockwise one is associated with the goddess Kali-Maya
              (mother of Buddha, associated with the Moon), and the clockwise one
              is associated with Ganesha (elephant-headed father of Buddha,
              associated with the Sun). Since the swastika is a simple symbol, it
              has been used, perhaps independently, by many human societies. One of
              the oldest known swastikas was painted on a paleolithic cave at least
              10,000 years ago.

              Here are some references with information about the swastika: Barbara
              G. Walker, THE WOMAN'S ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MYTHS AND SECRETS (1983), and
              THE WOMAN'S DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLS & SACRED OBJECTS (1988), both
              published by Harper & Row; James A. Michener, THE SOURCE; Ernest
              Klein, KLEIN'S COMPREHENSIVE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH
              LANGUAGE (Elsevier, 1971); Robert H. Mathews, MATHEWS'
              CHINESE-ENGLISH DICTIONARY (Harvard, 1966).

              http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/swas.html
            • Danny F.
              ... There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that everything is fine
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 7, 2000
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                --- Torben Zenth <science@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > From: "Danny F." <premabrahma@...>
                >
                > > But yet, it's hard to forget the use of the Swatiska by the
                > Nazis...
                >
                > What's the story of the nazi-swastika in this connection?
                >
                > Torben
                > Copenhagen


                There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
                (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that
                everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
                not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
                but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
                that when inverted represent a decadence and fall. That's what
                I meant by recallling the particular symbol of the swatiska. We
                know the Nazis and their occult connection and knowledge, no
                coincidence in the choice of swatiska going the other way round.

                Best regards,
                Danny


                =====
                "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
                --Tractatus Aristotelis

                "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                --William Blake

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
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              • Sarah Cherry
                ... Well, I m not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no means evil of itself.
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                  At 12:34 PM -0800 11/7/00, Danny F. wrote:
                  >There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
                  > (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed that
                  > everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
                  > not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
                  > but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
                  > that when inverted represent a decadence and fall.


                  Well, I'm not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise
                  spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no
                  means evil of itself. Instead, it was the energy of the Mother
                  principle. The swastika became evil in the hands of the Nazi due to
                  *human intent*.

                  Warmly,

                  Sarah
                • Danny F.
                  ... I agree with you. Though, there are symbols that get loaded and perverted, by the human intent, and it last actually. There is still power in the nazi
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                    --- Sarah Cherry <sncherr@...> wrote:
                    > At 12:34 PM -0800 11/7/00, Danny F. wrote:
                    > >There was a talk going on as wether there is such a thing as bad
                    > > (counterclock) and good(clockwise). The conclusion of it seemed
                    > that
                    > > everything is fine either way. My own thinking is that it might
                    > > not matter much about dancing aroung in a rircle either direction,
                    > > but there are particular symbols(swatiska, pentagram for example),
                    > > that when inverted represent a decadence and fall.
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I'm not sure this is the case. To the ancients, the clockwise
                    > spiraling did invoke energy toward the earth, but this was by no
                    > means evil of itself. Instead, it was the energy of the Mother
                    > principle. The swastika became evil in the hands of the Nazi due to
                    > *human intent*.
                    >
                    > Warmly,
                    >
                    > Sarah

                    I agree with you.

                    Though, there are symbols that get loaded and perverted,
                    by the human intent, and it last actually. There is still power
                    in the nazi gesture of the pointing of arm and hand for example,
                    their clothing and countenance, there is a lasting effect that lives
                    in the spiritual world as a "tank". There is such a thing as
                    disempowering and empowering of everything, 'fashions' work in
                    such a way, the fashion empower everything that comes to "mate"
                    with it, while it disempower that which is not like. You could be
                    a god, but if you live in the materialistic fashion that is around,
                    you will not be seen for what you are, there is a kind of
                    disempowerment in your mean of action directly on 'Man', there
                    will be a repelling effect, a cynical(ripping), robbing on the
                    soul, a disempowerment on that which is alive and holy, this is at
                    the same time a step of initiation: the encounter with evil,
                    a powerlessness.

                    What I wrote actually "it's hard to forget the swatiska in that
                    connection", was an instant reaction to the "everything is fine
                    and good" whatever you do. I consider that it can actually be
                    one of the danger for the 'neophyte' that comes in contact with
                    'Hermetism' for example, for there is said that everything is good
                    and works toward it, the first degree and simplistic understanding
                    of that lead to indifference towards evil.

                    We have to beware of the fashions of behaviour and styles for example,
                    for the "inspiration" of a trend can be far from holy, and the
                    "unenlighted" are like sponge in that regard.

                    May the thinking come strong, because actually it is mostly
                    experience from the sentient soul, Ahriman is glad to give
                    the illusion of the intellect, but moslty still this is
                    the sentient soul that humanity is stuck in, same thing
                    for conciousness soul, it is experienced as a pressure on the
                    sentient soul, it get very subconcious, powerful and blind
                    as impulse; 'Man' get buried in the grave of the world.
                    There's a seed that has to be awakened...
                    A guarrantee, a pearl that has to be discovered and used.

                    I myself trust the Ahriman's incarnation as to change the take,
                    this will be tremendous exciting time for anthroposophists,
                    the cards will be on the table then, we'll be able to play
                    the real "game" better then: 'salvation'.

                    Best regards,
                    Danny

                    =====
                    "Vide igitur, ne Lumen, quod in te est, tenebrae sint."
                    --Tractatus Aristotelis

                    "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                    --William Blake

                    __________________________________________________
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                    Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
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                  • starmann77@aol.com
                    Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do your eurythmy!
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                      Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are
                      qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do your
                      eurythmy!
                    • Danny F.
                      ... Well I know that. But in terms of evil, no one of them can be attributed the quality evil in an intrinsic way. But who could say that an inverted
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 9, 2000
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                        --- starmann77@... wrote:
                        > Left and right are not just mirror-images of each other, but are
                        > qualitatively different. So are clockwise and counter-clockwise. Do
                        > your
                        > eurythmy!

                        Well I know that.

                        But in terms of evil, no one of them can be attributed the "quality"
                        'evil' in an intrinsic way. But who could say that an inverted
                        pentagram represent something good for example? There are things that
                        when inverted though becomes evil, for their inherent nature and
                        meaning "flip" the other way round, become upside down. Is not
                        something out of it's "regular" path, course, location, beforehand,
                        afterhand: an hindrance, an evil?

                        That's up to us if we can absorb the pressure of it and turn the
                        light on evermore. Many will prefer the dark "cave"...
                        "Go out from the middle of them" if they do not want light,
                        but stay close in case they change their mind.

                        As for the right or the left, I prefer the middle myself. :-)

                        Some might be like Lennon though, just sitting and watching the
                        wheels go round and round, and liking to watch them roll. :-)

                        When Ezekiel saw a wheel, was it turning left or right?
                        Was it a wheel within a wheel? :-)

                        More seriously though, if the wheel within the wheel for example
                        went out of it's axis to hit the other, maybe the one that got
                        hit and turning clockwise will have said to itself, this other
                        one that turns counterclockwise is an evil one. If it has been the
                        one turning clockwise to hit the other, it would have been the
                        opposite....

                        Moral of the story, in this case: relativity.

                        The wheel could have been shocked and hurt from the other one,
                        but maybe to find itself then in a better position after...


                        Time for eurythmy now...

                        Best regards,
                        Danny




                        =====
                        "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings."
                        --William Blake

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