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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Sidereal & Tropical Zodiacs

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  • elaine upton
    Hello Wayne, Thanks for your most interesting post on the sidereal and zodiacal signs. ... OK, please, say more. What might these new signs be? New signs that
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 9, 2000
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      Hello Wayne,
      Thanks for your most interesting post on the sidereal and zodiacal signs.
      You close with this comment:


      >From: "Wayne Fischer" <wfische@...>
      >Reply-To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
      >To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
      >...the main point Steiner has about the zodiacal signs is that the
      >traditional images of the past where useful for a certain time
      >period,
      >but since the world consciousness has evolved those trad. signs do
      >not
      >speak to us like they used to, and now today we need a new set of
      >signs that represent the spiritual reality that surronds us during
      >this present epoch.
      >
      >thanks. Wayne Fischer


      OK, please, say more. What might these new signs be? New signs that
      represent the spiritual reality that surround us, as you say, in this
      present epoch? Please, elaborate, if you will, or any of you, if you will.

      Pace e Bene,
      elaine
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >--- In anthroposophy@egroups.com, JLA <pacbay@... wrote:
      > > In the Right and Wrong Use of Esoteric Knowledge RS makes
      >references
      >to certain
      > > forces and Beings associated with Virgo, Scorpio etc. I do not know
      >this is
      > > tropical or sidereal reference. I have also seen in other lectures
      >references to
      > > Zodiacal areas but again is one or the other. No response is
      >necessary.
      > >
      > > Jeff
      > >
      > > Starmann77@a... wrote:
      > >
      > > > From: Starmann77@a...
      > > >
      > > > In a message dated 12/12/99 5:04:30 AM, you wrote:
      > > > <Durwood,
      > > >
      > > > I seemed to be confused about something. You mentioned the other
      >day that RS
      > > >
      > > > referred to sideral relationships of the planets and stars while
      >Astroposohy
      > > > and
      > > >
      > > > most astrologers uses tropical. Why two systems for referencing
      >in
      >AP?
      > > >
      > > > jeff>>
      > > >
      > > > *******I really haven't studied much of what passes for
      >"astrosophy": found
      > > > it too head-oriented to be useful for helping understand any
      >horoscope. But
      > > > somewhere when it began with Willy Sucher, he surely must have
      >noticed that
      > > > Steiner always used the stars only. As you can easily see, every
      >Bio-Dynamic
      > > > farmer does this, and the nights in the Soul-Calendar were marked
      >with
      > > > star-positions, not the so-called "tropical" signs. The tropical
      >12 zones or
      > > > steps of the Sun have to do not directly with the stars, but with
      >the
      > > > elements in the course of the year, and are something separate
      >from the
      > > > stars. I don't know why there is this confusion of the two
      >systems
      >among
      > > > those working with anthroposophy and astrology : perhaps someone
      >working with
      > > > the so-called "astrosophy" could explain. I've never found any
      >reference by
      > > > the Doctor to the 12 tropical signs.
      > > >
      > > > Dr. Starman
      > > >
      > > >
      >

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    • Wayne Fischer
      Hello Elaine, Sorry it s taken me so long to get back to your question. I m a bit busy on this end of the world. I have a couple of lectures where Steiner
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 17, 2000
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        Hello Elaine,

        Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to your question. I'm a bit
        busy on this end of the world. I have a couple of lectures where
        Steiner speaks about this issue directly and in relation to the
        Calendar of the Soul. The one I'll quote from is called: Experience
        of the Trascendental: The Way of the Soul to Christ, given by Dr.
        Steiner in Munich, the 16th of May, 1912. Most of the lecture
        concerns the title of the talk, but near the end he brings it all
        into
        connection with the Calendar since he had recently given it to the
        group, by saying, "This calendar expresses the fact that we must
        maintain a connection with ancient times. The illustrations of the
        calendar, which were drawn by a member we love and esteem (Imme von
        Eckardstein), will reveal a renewal of things which have already lost
        their life and meaning, namely, imaginations which are connected with
        the constellations of the sun and of the moon and with the signs of
        the zodiac. They are given in a new form to the souls of the present
        time, so that they can really give you something if you study the
        sequence of the days and weeks. You may ask: "How can I discover
        these things independently?" You should study the indications
        contained in the above-mentioned Calendar of the Soul, for the
        meditations in this calendar are the result of occult research and
        experience of many years. If these meditations begin to live within
        your soul, you will find that something will arise within you which
        connects the forces pertaining to the spiritual worlds with the
        course
        of time." (Anthroposophic News Sheet, #32, August 8th, 1937, page 130)

        The signs that Dr. Starrman has been providing with the weekly
        Calendar mantras are the main zodiacal signs that Imme Von
        Eckardstein
        drew over a year's time in connection with the mantras Steiner gave
        her to meditate on. Steiner was very happy with these images, but
        they are only images produced my one person, and he recommends that
        each of us use the Calendar verses to arrive at our own imaginations
        (In the sense of the Anthroposophic use of the word) of the new
        zodiac.

        In the other lecture, called the Calendar of the Soul, given on May
        12, 1912 in Cologne, he says that, "the fifth epoch is a kind of
        repetition of the third, the Egypto-Chaldean-Babylonian epoch" and
        "Qualities and features of Egypto-Chaldean civilisation therefore
        come
        into evidence again in a certain way in our own thinking, feeling,
        and
        impulses of will". He goes on to say that, "During that third epoch
        men [human beings] were destined to unfold and intensify their
        connection with the world of the stars and human destiny" and now in
        our present epoch we will be re-living this experience, but in a new
        way. Mainly because, "signs that had meaning for ancient clairvoyant
        consciousness have been handed down from olden times without being
        understood. For example, the sign of Arieswas full of meaning and
        living content to the men of old; the sign did not apply to the
        constellation of Aries as such but indicated that the Sun or the Moon
        was standing in a certain relationship to this constellation,
        enabling
        certain forces to work in a definte way" Anyway, he goes on to say
        that we can become aware of these forces, which are the actions of
        spiritual beings, through our Imagination faculities and with the
        help
        of the new constellation set given with the Calendar, where he says,
        "These pictures of the Zodiacal constellations are representations of
        actual experiences connected with the waking and sleeping of
        particular spiritual Beings." (Anthrophosophical Quarterly, Spring
        1963, page 93-94).

        I hope those quote help a little bit. Steiner seems to indicate that
        it is the relationship between the Earth, the Sun and the Moon, and a
        specific constellation that permits the activities of these so called
        spiritual beings to be viewed with our Imaginative faculty.

        Best of luck with it all,

        Wayne Fischer

        --- In anthroposophy@egroups.com, "elaine upton" <elaineupton@h...>
        wrote:
        > Hello Wayne,
        > Thanks for your most interesting post on the sidereal and zodiacal
        signs.
        > You close with this comment:
        >
        >
        > >From: "Wayne Fischer" <wfische@b...>
        > >Reply-To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
        > >To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
        > >...the main point Steiner has about the zodiacal signs is that the
        > >traditional images of the past where useful for a certain time
        > >period,
        > >but since the world consciousness has evolved those trad. signs do
        > >not
        > >speak to us like they used to, and now today we need a new set of
        > >signs that represent the spiritual reality that surronds us during
        > >this present epoch.
        > >
        > >thanks. Wayne Fischer
        >
        >
        > OK, please, say more. What might these new signs be? New signs that
        > represent the spiritual reality that surround us, as you say, in
        this
        > present epoch? Please, elaborate, if you will, or any of you, if
        you
        will.
        >
        > Pace e Bene,
        > elaine
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >--- In anthroposophy@egroups.com, JLA <pacbay@... wrote:
        > > > In the Right and Wrong Use of Esoteric Knowledge RS makes
        > >references
        > >to certain
        > > > forces and Beings associated with Virgo, Scorpio etc. I do not
        know
        > >this is
        > > > tropical or sidereal reference. I have also seen in other
        lectures
        > >references to
        > > > Zodiacal areas but again is one or the other. No response is
        > >necessary.
        > > >
        > > > Jeff
        > > >
        > > > Starmann77@a... wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > From: Starmann77@a...
        > > > >
        > > > > In a message dated 12/12/99 5:04:30 AM, you wrote:
        > > > > <Durwood,
        > > > >
        > > > > I seemed to be confused about something. You mentioned the
        other
        > >day that RS
        > > > >
        > > > > referred to sideral relationships of the planets and stars
        while
        > >Astroposohy
        > > > > and
        > > > >
        > > > > most astrologers uses tropical. Why two systems for
        referencing
        > >in
        > >AP?
        > > > >
        > > > > jeff>>
        > > > >
        > > > > *******I really haven't studied much of what passes for
        > >"astrosophy": found
        > > > > it too head-oriented to be useful for helping understand any
        > >horoscope. But
        > > > > somewhere when it began with Willy Sucher, he surely must have
        > >noticed that
        > > > > Steiner always used the stars only. As you can easily see,
        every
        > >Bio-Dynamic
        > > > > farmer does this, and the nights in the Soul-Calendar were
        marked
        > >with
        > > > > star-positions, not the so-called "tropical" signs. The
        tropical
        > >12 zones or
        > > > > steps of the Sun have to do not directly with the stars, but
        with
        > >the
        > > > > elements in the course of the year, and are something separate
        > >from the
        > > > > stars. I don't know why there is this confusion of the two
        > >systems
        > >among
        > > > > those working with anthroposophy and astrology : perhaps
        someone
        > >working with
        > > > > the so-called "astrosophy" could explain. I've never found any
        > >reference by
        > > > > the Doctor to the 12 tropical signs.
        > > > >
        > > > > Dr. Starman
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > >
        >
        >
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      • elaine upton
        Thanks, Wayne, for your thoughtful reply on our gaining a new relationship to the zodiacal signs. So, its not just the constellations that are to be
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 18, 2000
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          Thanks, Wayne, for your thoughtful reply on our gaining a new relationship
          to the zodiacal signs. So, its not just the constellations that are to be
          considered, but also the relationship of the constellation to the Sun, and
          to the Moon. Lots to learn here, I am sure...I am but a beginner at all
          this (or beginning again, perhaps as i began in Egypt centuries ago...).
          Thanksgiving,
          elaine



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