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Re: How Angels fall

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  • holderlin66
    Rediscovering the hidden mysteries of Whitsun Bradford brought; Church and materialism has tainted and lost the intimate thread of the Spiritual World. NASA
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 2, 2007
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      Rediscovering  the hidden mysteries of Whitsun

      Bradford brought;

      "Church and materialism has tainted and lost the intimate thread of the Spiritual World. NASA and abstract Klingsor, Star demons, left over from The Battle of the minstrels, now infect human consciousness with the materialism of the stars, horoscopes of abstraction, and false understanding of the true nature of science thinking and the stars now, through Klingsor and his false star demons, are called down against Wolfram Von Eschenbach. "

      Parzfal

      We caught the beast called Unicorn
      That knows and loves a maiden best
      And falls asleep upon her breast;
      We took from underneath his horn
      The splendid male carbuncle stone
      Sparkling against the white skull-bone.

      Wolfram von Eschenbach

       

      http://www.kulturwanderungen.de/bistum/wolframseschenbach/wolframs.htm

      R.S. Karma studies and Whitsun mysteries;

      "To complete the picture, I will add that it is clearly possible to see among those who fought hard against the dominion of Michael, and against whom the spirits of Michael had to proceed - it is clearly possible to see among them to this day, the very spirit-beings whom Klingsor conjured up in the Wartburg long ago against Wolfram von Eschenbach.

       

      "...But it is most significant of all to recognize this connection of abstract rationalism, abstractly clever thinking, with that which lives in the subconscious as darkened, veiled conceptions about the stars and the relationships to the stars. Such things, living in the subconscious, rise into the consciousness as abstract thoughts. We can study the karma of the cleverest men of the present day - cleverest in the materialist sense - and we find that as a rule in former earthly lives they had something to do with cosmological aberrations into the realms of black magic. This is a very significant connection..."

       

      " ...It will show you once more, how through the whole reality of modern time there has come forth a certain stream of spiritual life which makes it very difficult to approach with an open mind the science of the stars, and the science, too, of karma."  R.S. Karma Lectures Volume # IV.

      http://tinyurl.com/38fzh5

      From Bradford's essay on the Star forces and the Word:
      "...Today we understand that matter responds to harmonic resonation and that matter is in fact enchanted light.

      But there were dangers here as well. If it were possible to bring astral and star beings into the Word; into the structure of harmonics and weave them down into thought one could engage in White Magic, which could knowingly influence the word toward its best and most healing aspects; or its opposite; Black Magic, which would secretly imbue Words with dangerous astral beings and star influences. These could be magically enchanted into the very body of language and find new habitation through the thoughts of men.  As we can see from the Parsifal legends, Bach and the deed of Martin Luther, a great deal of good could come from the new etheric forces released through the conscious practice of the Word.

       

      "…on an evening in the summer of the year 1207 the minnesinger Klingsohr from Transylvania announced to the Landgrave Herman of Thuringia that that night a daughter had been born to the king of Hungary, who should be exalted in holiness and become the wife of Herman's son; and that in fact at that time the child Elizabeth was born, in Pressburg (Bratislava) or Saros-Patak, to Andrew II of Hungary and his wife, Gertrude of Andechs-Meran. Such an alliance as that "foretold" by Klingsohr had substantial political advantages to recommend it, and the baby Elizabeth was promised to Herman's eldest son. At about four years of age she was brought to the Thuringian court at the castle of the Wartburg, near Eisenach, there to be brought up with her future husband.

       

      "…The castle of the Wartburg was built on a steep rock, which the infirm and weak were not able to climb (the path was called "the kneesmasher"). St Elizabeth[1] therefore built a hospital at the foot of the rock for their reception, where she often fed them with her own hands, made their beds, and attended them even in the heat of summer when the place seemed insupportable. Helpless children, especially orphans, were provided for at her expense. She was the foundress of another hospital in which twenty-eight persons were constantly relieved, and she fed nine hundred daily at her gate, besides numbers in different parts of the dominions, so that the revenue in her hands was truly the patrimony of the distressed."[i]

       

      Wartburg Castle and the Battle of the Minstrels

       

      Klingsohr or Clingsor or Klingsor appears very clearly in the history of Wartburg Castle and in the Battle of the Minstrels. It is from this individual that we get links to the Clingsor of Sicily that so challenged the Grail knights and wounded the Grail King himself. Here in the area of Transylvania and Hungary we find the historical records of an active magician named Klingsohr. He was an Initiate who truly participated in the darker side of what happens when the Word is used with hypnotic conscious intent.

       

      Rudolf Steiner brought us the stunning results of the destiny of Strader in the Mystery Dramas, which revealed the damaging effects and dangers of enchanting false astral beings into the Word. Strader is hindered from bringing, Keely[2] like science and technology into matter. Sympathetic Vibratory Physics would advance humanities understanding of the Music of the Spheres, indicated by Kepler and harmonic resonation of the Devachanic star fields. However the intent of Klingsohr and his actions not only affected Strader but also entered into the magnetic thinking substance that lives in certain thought patterns of the brain. In these thought patterns certain negative astral entities could be brought down from the astral world of the stars into the body of language and thinking itself. Steiner speaks about the Battle of the Minstrels and Strader in his Karma lectures.

       

      "...Thus we have an event on earth in the Battle of the Minstrels on the Wartburg, not directly connected with continued stream of Michael.

       

      "Now who was there in the Battle of the Minstrels? (A.D. 1206) The greatest German poets were there together, vying one with another in their song. The story is well known - how the Minstrels fought for the fame of princes and for their own repute: Walter von der Vogelweide, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Reinmar von Zweter, and how there was one who stood against all others - Heinrich von Ofterdingen.

       

      "In this Heinrich von Ofterdingen I found the individuality that underlay the archetype of STRADER.

       

      "Thus it was Henrich von Ofterdingen. Now we must concentrate on this: Why did Heinrich von Ofterdingen meet with such difficulties when he had passed through the gate of death? Why did he have to go through the world of stars, as it were, darkened and befogged?

       

      "To answer this we must return to the story of the Battle of the Minstrels. Heinrich von Ofterdingen takes up the fight against the others. They have already called the hangman. He is to be hanged if he loses. He manages to withdraw; but, hoping to bring about a renewed contest, he summons the magician Klingsor from the land of Hungary. He did, in effect, bring the magician Klingsor from Hungary to Eisenach. A new Battle of the Wartburg ensues and Klingsor enters the lists for Heinrich von Ofterdingen. Klingsor himself SINGS against the others, but it is quite evident that he is not battling alone. He causes spiritual beings to battle with him. For instance, in order to do so, he makes a youth become possessed by a spiritual being - and then compels the youth to sing in his place. He calls still stronger spiritual forces into play in the Wartburg.

       

      "Over against all that comes from Klingsor's side stands Wolfram von Eschenbach. One of Klingsor's practices is to make one of his spiritual beings put Wolfram to the test, as to whether he is really a learned man. For Klingsor finds himself driven into a corner by Wolfram. In effect, Wolfram von Eschenbach, observing that some spiritual influence is at work, sings of the Holy Communion, the Transubstantiation, the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the spirit is obliged to depart, for he cannot bear it. There are indeed ` real realities ' underlying these things, if I may use the tautology."

       

      Steiner Karma lectures.

       

      Wolfram von Eschenbach was no match for Klingsohr. However in the heart of the young poet Eschenbach was the tale, the historical record of the true Parsifal Initiation of 848. It is through Eschenbach, who is facing the Black Magician Klingsohr that we salvage one of the greatest tales ever given to humanity. But Klingsohr doesn't work for the Grail. He is working against the Grail. Klingsohr has taken a great interest in interfering with what humanity might gain from the great Grail legend incubating within Eschenbach. We don't know how the magician named, Klingsohr, ends up echoing down the halls of time but it appears to be part of the fully penetrated astral and etheric form of some mighty initiate that passes his psyche and learning down through a consolidated transference of abilities.

      Morris (William), Vision of the Holy Grail, 1890

      Robert Powell offers some insights into the continuing ripples of song that swelled around the great hidden mystery of Parsival or Parsifal and Christ.

       

      "The Grail events described by Wolfram are not fiction, but historical fact. A highly spiritual human being, known as Parzival, through his path in life underwent an initiation, culminating on Whit Sunday in 848 in his attainment of the Grail, an experience of union with the Holy Spirit. The Parzival epic is an account of Christian initiation, which proceeds in the stream of life itself. The simultaneous occurrence of the  `star of Munsalvaesche ', the great conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Pisces, indicates that the Christian initiation, the attainment of the Holy Grail, is also a cosmic event. The Grail Initiate lives in harmony with the cosmos, and his earthly destiny unfolds in accordance with this cosmic harmony.

       

      "...So we see how what the Christ inaugurated as the Cosmic Spiritual Communion of mankind began to be realized in the Grail movement, as Parzival and others who searched for the Grail gradually became conscious of who Christ Jesus is, and what His death and resurrection signify for humanity."

       

      When we examine the bountiful changes that unfolded from a specific location where Speech and Poetry was called to a specific challenge where the word and the intimate tones of Speech were themselves challenged we discover several interesting things. We see how the very artistic activity practiced in Wartburg created the potential cultural changes that an individuality like Martin Luther brought into the social, political and religious life of humanity. We see how a stream of starry music, transformed through the Bach family, entered culture and transformed it. We observe that the profound social compassion of Elizabeth unites with the new starry compassion of the heart and heart thinking in a truly healing and Christian way. Steiner unveils the mystery of just what astral forces were hovering around the incarnation of the individuality of Elizabeth and what opposing forces were called into play in an attempt to block the unfolding of this meaningful event.

       

      "In the eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth centuries replicas of the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth were woven into other human beings when their karma so permitted and they were sufficiently mature. Francis of Assisi, Elisabeth of Thüringen, for example, and others too, bore within them a replica of the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth. Without this knowledge, the lives of Francis of Assisi and Elisabeth of Thüringen are unintelligible to us. Everything that seems so strange to-day in the life of Francis of Assisi is because the `I' was the human `I' of that individuality; but the humility, the devoutness and the fervor we so admire in him are due to the fact that a replica of the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth was woven into his own astral body. And it was so in the case of many other personalities living at that time. When we know this, they become examples for us. How can anyone who really studies the matter understand the life of Elisabeth of Thüringen if he does not know that a replica of the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth was woven into her? And very many were called in this way by the on working Christ Power to bear this mighty Impulse forward to posterity." [ii]

       

      When we consider artistic work, Speech and Eurythmy, performed at Schools and cultural centers we begin to glimmer a marvelous resonation between the new mysteries of the word that also have the potential of seeding, fostering and nurturing environmental, social and religious changes. The new mysteries of the Word have been wrought with conscious perception of language. The tonal forces of Speech, the individual sounds and the visible expressions of the laws of language are a new revelation on the stages of many cultural centers around the globe.

       

      The Beings of the word and the starry ensouled sounds that merge together in the poetry, music and symphonies of Eurythmy performances act as an antidote to what Klingsohr intended. The new Word mysteries and the individual sounds apprehended by Steiner's research rebuild the bridge to the elemental world of nature, the etheric world and unite the Logos with the thinking forces of human speech. When we observe such cultural moments of artistic clarity we are witnessing the redemption of nature and human thinking.

       

      Klingsohr's intention was to keep humanity from becoming aware of the new etheric and astral forces that Christ continues to awaken and bestow on humanity. At Klingsohr's command a powerful star call went out for beings to counteract and hinder the thinking that Wolfram von Eschenbach was holding onto with his great work of Parsifal. Klingsohr had the ability to call down retarded astral forces into the very elemental world surrounding the Castle at Wartburg. In his anti-Grail school the whole mythos of Transylvania stood opposed to the Word forces indicated by the John Gospel.

       

      Dangerous astral beings that hide in the errors of human thinking, were unfolded with all the force of a conscious Black Magician, and called upon to re-energize themselves and stream down into the wills and thinking of men. Steiner found that such forces did indeed enter under the occult influences of Klingsohr. We may observe these anti-Grail influences in many of the current ideas that permeate our sciences today. We may certainly encounter these ideas in the reverse transubstantiation myths that Transylvania is famous for. But Steiner describes these anti-effects of the Word in a unique way.

       

      "To complete the picture, I will add that it is clearly possible to see among those who fought hard against the dominion of Michael, and against whom the spirits of Michael had to proceed - it is clearly possible to see among them to this day, the very spirit-beings whom Klingsor conjured up in the Wartburg long ago against Wolfram von Eschenbach.

       

      "...But it is most significant of all to recognize this connection of abstract rationalism, abstractly clever thinking, with that which lives in the subconscious as darkened, veiled conceptions about the stars and the relationships to the stars. Such things, living in the subconscious, rise into the consciousness as abstract thoughts. We can study the karma of the cleverest men of the present day - cleverest in the materialist sense - and we find that as a rule in former earthly lives they had something to do with cosmological aberrations into the realms of black magic. This is a very significant connection..."

       

      " ...It will show you once more, how through the whole reality of modern time there has come forth a certain stream of spiritual life which makes it very difficult to approach with an open mind the science of the stars, and the science, too, of karma."  R.S. Karma Lectures Volume # IV.

      http://tinyurl.com/3d2npw


      [1] Since Elizabeth was hovering in incarnation, just as these tournaments were taking place, we are privy to an understanding of just what powerful future bearing starry forces were gathering in a soul who would carry new etheric and astral social forces into her destiny. We also observe that unique spiritual influences and a pitched battle unfolded around the embryonic development of this individuality.

      [2] http://www.svpvril.com/fortylaw.html

    • isenhart7
      If inconsistency is the heart s neighbor, the soul will not fail to find it bitter. Blame and praise alike befall when a dauntless man s spirit is
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 3, 2007
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        "If inconsistency is the heart's neighbor, the soul will not fail to
        find it bitter. Blame and praise alike befall when a dauntless man's
        spirit is black-and-white-mixed like a magpie's plumage. Yet he may see
        blessedness after all, for both colors have a share in him, the color
        of heaven and the color of hell. Inconsistency's companian is all black
        and takes on the hue of darkness, while he of steadfast thoughts clings
        to white."
      • Stephen Hale
        Following the other way is so bleak and miserable and full of pain and resistance. Unless you re a sex counselor on McNeil Island. We go 24/7. Steve
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 6, 2007
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          "Following the other way is so bleak and miserable and full of pain
          and resistance."

          Unless you're a sex counselor on McNeil Island. We go 24/7.

          Steve
        • Mark Willan
          Hi Apologies to everyone for my non-participation during extended leave of internet-free absence. There are only one oe two aspects I wish to add to he review
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 9, 2007
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            Hi

            Apologies to everyone for my non-participation during extended leave of internet-free absence.

            There are only one oe two aspects I wish to add to he review carried out on list of some of the topics that have most deeply affected me in my inner life - ie the Wortk of the Angels and the whole Grail saga.

            What I wish to add (becasue it is not widely accessible to others,) is contained in the attachment, which is my translation of Scaligero's contribution to these very topics, and which are dirctly relevant here.

            I would just highlight the note of hope in that the etheric Christ, as master of destiny, is creating a new form of human love which transcends the baser form that Ahriman is working on, and giving it to mankind through the forces that are at work when we fall in love - in fact the work is in many ways a study of the state of grace we call being in love, from the viewpoint of spiritual science.

            I give it as an attachment, to avoid overloading by flowing the text into this post.

            Bless you all.

            Mark






            Mark Willan

            21 Balmoral Park
            #02-14 Pïnewood Gardens
            Singapore 259850

            Tel: +65 64040702
            Mob: +65 92305170


          • holderlin66
            http://youtube.com/watch?v=IWfIhFhelm8&mode=related&search=
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 10, 2007
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            • isenhart7
              All rivers are not equal, as far as I know, but every square inch of the Earth is a drainage area.
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 10, 2007
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                All rivers are not equal, as far as I know, but every square inch of
                the Earth is a drainage area.

                http://www.tremolocowboys.com/Lyrics_J/Joni_Mitchell_Lyrics/Both_Sides_N
                ow_Song_Lyrics.html
              • holderlin66
                ZEITGEIST We discover the word ZEITGEIST popping up here and there. It refers to the activity and press of Michael Intelligence and the crisis points where the
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 11, 2007
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                  ZEITGEIST

                  We discover the word ZEITGEIST popping up here and there. It refers to the activity and press of Michael Intelligence and the crisis points where the Time Spirit Michael clashes with Ahrimanic thrusts.  The Fall of the British empire, rose again like a phoenix from the artistic work of the fab four. Four chambered heart, four directions in space, four cornered egyptian pyramid, Four cardinal signs, four gospels, R.STeiner's Fifth Gospel for the Fifth Epoch, The four Mark, John, Matthew, Luke....which calls down the star anchor points known as Mark the Lion; John the Eagle or Scorpio; Luke the bull; and Matthew the water bearer....But we lived through, at least some of us have lived through a crowning surge of Woodstockian-Beatles and British, English and American etheric surge of Joy and hyper Lucifer/Michael creativity that earned the word ZEITGEIST from this particular researcher.

                  The grand Luciferic/Michael cultural surge has brought us right around on the pendulum to another cycle of Sorathian/Orwellian Fascism with torture as American policy. Not enough of those of us who had been in that particular surge, made there way to the pure Michael insight of what a ZEITGEIST is in the scheme of the Angels.

                  Our very own Angels placed us in various geographic and language and thinking regions over the earth to promote our karma and thought forces to rise.  But how many, show me your hands, how many out there really grasp Angel-Archangel and Archai activities in relation to human events? Ya, right!  Time Spirits and the present Michael force in human cosmopolitan thinking allows Spiritual Science to be robed in Light and leads to the secret of our time, the Etheric Christ Being. And the generation that brought the Beatles were also privy to that immense Spiritual world celebration of the rise of the Etheric Christ and just as horrifically reflected on Earth, prior to the incarnations that felt such celebration in the heavens, the nuclear bomb on Earth smudged and stained human senses by celebrating on Earth, the dawn of the Ahrimanic Sun.   Isn't this all touching?  Aren't you moved to see how immense joy was celebrated in a wave of a generation riding on Luciferic and Michael forces... and how few, how skimpy and few stayed the course to come towards some deeper conscious and cognitive grasp of the workings of the actual ZEITGEISTS?

                  "On both sides of the Sgt. Pepper's divide—hyperbolically pro and knee-jerk con—there is a tendency to treat the album as an icon stripped of historical peculiarity, floating outside of time and place. Yet Sgt. Pepper's is the definitive Beatles record not necessarily because it contains their best music, but because it captures them at their ZEITGEIST-commandeering peak: It is the Beatles album of, and about, history's Beatles Moment."

                  http://www.slate.com/id/2167998/nav/tap1/

                  Bradford brought;

                  "Oh yes, then we hear with real ears, not polluted ears what John Lennon of the Beatles tried to say with his "IMAGINE" before he was murdered.  Yes we come close in cultural life to grasp the message with our intuitions and we understand our fellow human beings efforts, don't we? "

                  Smashing Pumpkins, Obey Giant Illustrator Fairey Collaborate for

                • Gloria
                  http://youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI ... Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 11, 2007
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                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI


                    Building a website is a piece of cake.
                    Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                  • Gloria
                    http://youtube.com/watch?v=n7aMGo_FSuo holderlin66 wrote:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 11, 2007
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                      http://youtube.com/watch?v=n7aMGo_FSuo

                      holderlin66 <holderlin66@...> wrote:


                      Don't pick lemons.
                      See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                    • isenhart7
                      ... Dear Mark, My apologies if you get this request twice. I sent it earlier today and then unsent because it had (gasp) a typo in it. Anyway, I could not open
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 11, 2007
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                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mark Willan <mwillan@...> wrote:

                        > I give it as an attachment, to avoid overloading by flowing the text
                        > into this post.

                        Dear Mark,

                        My apologies if you get this request twice. I sent it earlier today and
                        then unsent because it had (gasp) a typo in it. Anyway, I could not
                        open your attachment and wonder if you could place your document in the
                        file section of the list? Thanks, Val
                      • isenhart7
                        ... wrote: Another excellent handle if you ask me! I was contemplating signing up for a list the other day and all I could think
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 12, 2007
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                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "whitelunarworldbridger"
                          <whitelunarworldbridger@...> wrote:


                          Another excellent handle if you ask me! I was contemplating signing
                          up for a list the other day and all I could think of was "XYZ" which
                          is an acronym for examine your zipper which isn't anywhere near as
                          good as whitelunarworldbridger and just goes to show that my mind is
                          basically in the gutter.

                          > > So I was lying in bed thinking away that you really have trained
                          > your cobra very well. I actually prefer holderlin and your future
                          > self. Mmm Bradford is another darth vader i think, besides you are
                          > 50 /50.. Yes might be you belong to soradt but might be not. Also
                          > you would do well to read Llyall watson and Gifts of unknown
                          > things.. Mmm its my advice :)

                          I have read Watson and, on a good day, even know the difference
                          between mediating and meditating but my question is-if our beloved
                          Bradford is a Darth Vader figure then who will play Obi-Wan-Kenobi?
                          Or-oh be one can no be-a chiasmus which Rene Querido was very fond of
                          using. (see, I don't just make this stuff up as I go along.)Val
                        • Stephen Hale
                          ... refers to ... points ... Fall ... work ... four ... Mark ... This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually,
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 12, 2007
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                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                            <holderlin66@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > ZEITGEIST

                            > We discover the word ZEITGEIST popping up here and there. It
                            refers to
                            > the activity and press of Michael Intelligence and the crisis
                            points
                            > where the Time Spirit Michael clashes with Ahrimanic thrusts. The
                            Fall
                            > of the British empire, rose again like a phoenix from the artistic
                            work
                            > of the fab four. Four chambered heart, four directions in space,
                            four
                            > cornered egyptian pyramid, Four cardinal signs, four gospels,
                            > R.STeiner's Fifth Gospel for the Fifth Epoch, The four Mark, John,
                            > Matthew, Luke....which calls down the star anchor points known as
                            Mark
                            > the Lion; John the Eagle or Scorpio; Luke the bull; and Matthew the
                            > water bearer....

                            This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark,
                            Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew's gospel, but
                            because the Matthew gospel begins with words related to the
                            geneaology of Jesus, and Mark's begins simply with the words: "The
                            beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ...", Matthew's is considered
                            first because of this trace of generations.

                            Now, what has always interested me is why Steiner gave his gospel
                            lectures in reverse order: John, Luke, Matthew, Mark. And I have
                            discovered that it was for a very important reason; a reason that
                            would, in fact, serve to lay the foundation stone of the first
                            Goetheanum, which was called the Johannesbau at the time, in
                            Spetember of 1913. It is important to know that the foundation
                            stone of the Anthroposophical Society of 1913 was laid with two
                            things: 1) a copper dodecahedron, and 2) The Fifth Gospel.

                            When the four gospels were first written down, giving an account of
                            the direct experience of Christ on earth by those closely associated
                            to this Being, and those events which occurred at the mid-point of
                            earth evolution, it was also known by them, and even to modern
                            scholars of the gospels, that an originating gospel of these events
                            surrounding Christ's incarnation on earth also existed; one that
                            preceded the actual incarnation. Thus, a supersensible gospel
                            existed that modern scholars called, the "Q" gospel. And, Matthew's
                            gospel is taken from this "Q" as its primary source for this
                            geneaological trace of the generations leading down to the birth of
                            Jesus.

                            As we know, the lectures that comprise, The Fifth Gospel, which were
                            given just after the completion of Michelmas, and the laying of the
                            foundation stone of the Anthroposophical Society in 1913, give us
                            something of this original supersensible gospel, called the 'Q' by
                            scholars, but in a form that links us throughout to the true and
                            esoteric content of the lectures given from 1908 until 1912, in
                            which the four gospels are illuminated in various ways as to their
                            real meaning for what had to occur at the mid-point of earth
                            evolution.

                            So, I have been able to determine something of importance with
                            regard to this method of reverse description of the gospels and
                            their content. First, it leads to the The Fifth Gospel itself,
                            which needs the intense effort of exploration and anaylsis of the
                            four, and by doing them in reverse it created the catalyst necessary
                            to be able to enter the supersensible gospel (Q) itself; the one
                            that preceded the four that were brought before external history.

                            And therefore, something quite supersensible, yet quite meant for
                            perceptible attainment was also planted at that time, in the same
                            way that the copper dodecahedron was planted into the ground. But
                            rather than the ground of the earth, it was the ground of the heart
                            that received this implanting. What was once able to be known by
                            outer instruments worn on the breastplate, and thus could give a
                            gospel of Christ even before the actual being and events took place,
                            had now been planted in the heart through the very mechanism of the
                            approach to The Fifth Gospel.

                            The Urim and the Thummin now reside in the heart as instruments that
                            need to be rubbed together through the power of spiritual science.

                            Steve
                          • carol
                            This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew s gospel,.. …Now, what has always
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 13, 2007
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                              "This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew's gospel,..

                               

                              …Now, what has always interested me is why Steiner gave his gospel lectures in reverse order: John, Luke, Matthew, Mark. And I have discovered that it was for a very important reason; a reason that would, in fact, serve to lay the foundation stone of the first Goetheanum…"

                               

                              I noticed the following classification in reference to the gospels coming from R Steiner in a written  response where he addresses certain questions which  Frau von Moltke asked following the 31 July l917 lecutre– The Karma of Materialism, Lecture 1, `Forgotten aspects of Cultural Spiritual Life' concerning agrarian society and industrial man.

                               

                              The first line I don't quite understand.

                               

                              "Beginning (?) August 1917 ( Berlin )  (maybe his handwriting wasn't clear)

                              Agrarianism: Luke

                              Industry and Urbanism: Mathew

                              Military: Mark

                              Priesthood: John"

                               

                              (From Light for the New Millennium, Rudolf Steiner Press, London 1997)

                               

                              Though this is the order they appear in print, it seems natural to me that if one where to reflect  and in a certain sense weigh in on the materialistic and spiritual essences behind these classifications and then proceed to select the most outwardly (materialistic) on one side, and  the most inwardly (spiritual)  to at the other,  with which of the 2 in between lean more to one than the other, then one might easily find the following order:  Military: Mark,  Industry and Urbanism: Mathew, Agrarianism: Luke,  Priesthood: John.  

                               

                              And this line up confirms the gospel order cited above.

                               

                              But I can't quite harmonize within myself the contents of what I discovered above and what Bradford brought cited below.  Though comically,  they definitely represent the reverse of how they are now presented.   Bradford 's reference reaching high above (the astral),  and what I presented reaching way below (earthly life).

                               

                               

                              "Four chambered heart, four directions in space, four cornered egyptian pyramid, Four cardinal signs, four gospels, R.STeiner's Fifth Gospel for the Fifth Epoch, The four Mark, John,
                              Matthew, Luke....which calls down the star anchor points known as Mark the Lion; John the Eagle or Scorpio; Luke the bull; and Matthew the water bearer...."

                               

                              Carol

                               


                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                              > holderlin66@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ZEITGEIST
                              >
                              > > We discover the word ZEITGEIST popping up here and there. It
                              > refers to
                              > > the activity and press of Michael Intelligence and the crisis
                              > points
                              > > where the Time Spirit Michael clashes with Ahrimanic thrusts. The
                              > Fall
                              > > of the British empire, rose again like a phoenix from the artistic
                              > work
                              > > of the fab four. Four chambered heart, four directions in space,
                              > four
                              > > cornered egyptian pyramid, Four cardinal signs, four gospels,
                              > > R.STeiner's Fifth Gospel for the Fifth Epoch, The four Mark, John,
                              > > Matthew, Luke....which calls down the star anchor points known as
                              > Mark
                              > > the Lion; John the Eagle or Scorpio; Luke the bull; and Matthew the
                              > > water bearer....
                              >
                              > This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark,
                              > Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew's gospel, but
                              > because the Matthew gospel begins with words related to the
                              > geneaology of Jesus, and Mark's begins simply with the words: "The
                              > beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ...", Matthew's is considered
                              > first because of this trace of generations.
                              >
                              > Now, what has always interested me is why Steiner gave his gospel
                              > lectures in reverse order: John, Luke, Matthew, Mark. And I have
                              > discovered that it was for a very important reason; a reason that
                              > would, in fact, serve to lay the foundation stone of the first
                              > Goetheanum, which was called the Johannesbau at the time, in
                              > Spetember of 1913. It is important to know that the foundation
                              > stone of the Anthroposophical Society of 1913 was laid with two
                              > things: 1) a copper dodecahedron, and 2) The Fifth Gospel.
                              >
                              > When the four gospels were first written down, giving an account of
                              > the direct experience of Christ on earth by those closely associated
                              > to this Being, and those events which occurred at the mid-point of
                              > earth evolution, it was also known by them, and even to modern
                              > scholars of the gospels, that an originating gospel of these events
                              > surrounding Christ's incarnation on earth also existed; one that
                              > preceded the actual incarnation. Thus, a supersensible gospel
                              > existed that modern scholars called, the "Q" gospel. And, Matthew's
                              > gospel is taken from this "Q" as its primary source for this
                              > geneaological trace of the generations leading down to the birth of
                              > Jesus.
                              >
                              > As we know, the lectures that comprise, The Fifth Gospel, which were
                              > given just after the completion of Michelmas, and the laying of the
                              > foundation stone of the Anthroposophical Society in 1913, give us
                              > something of this original supersensible gospel, called the 'Q' by
                              > scholars, but in a form that links us throughout to the true and
                              > esoteric content of the lectures given from 1908 until 1912, in
                              > which the four gospels are illuminated in various ways as to their
                              > real meaning for what had to occur at the mid-point of earth
                              > evolution.
                              >
                              > So, I have been able to determine something of importance with
                              > regard to this method of reverse description of the gospels and
                              > their content. First, it leads to the The Fifth Gospel itself,
                              > which needs the intense effort of exploration and anaylsis of the
                              > four, and by doing them in reverse it created the catalyst necessary
                              > to be able to enter the supersensible gospel (Q) itself; the one
                              > that preceded the four that were brought before external history.
                              >
                              > And therefore, something quite supersensible, yet quite meant for
                              > perceptible attainment was also planted at that time, in the same
                              > way that the copper dodecahedron was planted into the ground. But
                              > rather than the ground of the earth, it was the ground of the heart
                              > that received this implanting. What was once able to be known by
                              > outer instruments worn on the breastplate, and thus could give a
                              > gospel of Christ even before the actual being and events took place,
                              > had now been planted in the heart through the very mechanism of the
                              > approach to The Fifth Gospel.
                              >
                              > The Urim and the Thummin now reside in the heart as instruments that
                              > need to be rubbed together through the power of spiritual science.
                              >
                              > Steve
                              >

                            • holderlin66
                              This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew s gospel,.. …Now, what has always
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 13, 2007
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                                "This morning I was thinking about the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Actually, Mark comes before Matthew's gospel,..

                                …Now, what has always interested me is why Steiner gave his gospel lectures in reverse order: John, Luke, Matthew, Mark. And I have discovered that it was for a very important reason; a reason that would, in fact, serve to lay the foundation stone of the first Goetheanum…"

                                I noticed the following classification in reference to the gospels coming from R Steiner in a written  response where he addresses certain questions which  Frau von Moltke asked following the 31 July l917 lecutre– The Karma of Materialism, Lecture 1, `Forgotten aspects of Cultural Spiritual Life' concerning agrarian society and industrial man.

                                The first line I don't quite understand.

                                "Beginning (?) August 1917 ( Berlin )  (maybe his handwriting wasn't clear)

                                Agrarianism: Luke

                                Industry and Urbanism: Mathew

                                Military: Mark

                                Priesthood: John"

                                (From Light for the New Millennium, Rudolf Steiner Press, London 1997)

                                Though this is the order they appear in print, it seems natural to me that if one where to reflect  and in a certain sense weigh in on the materialistic and spiritual essences behind these classifications and then proceed to select the most outwardly (materialistic) on one side, and  the most inwardly (spiritual)  to at the other,  with which of the 2 in between lean more to one than the other, then one might easily find the following order:  Military: Mark,  Industry and Urbanism: Mathew, Agrarianism: Luke,  Priesthood: John.  

                                And this line up confirms the gospel order cited above.

                                But I can't quite harmonize within myself the contents of what I discovered above and what Bradford brought cited below.  Though comically,  they definitely represent the reverse of how they are now presented.   Bradford 's reference reaching high above (the astral),  and what I presented reaching way below (earthly life).

                                "Four chambered heart, four directions in space, four cornered egyptian pyramid, Four cardinal signs, four gospels, R.STeiner's Fifth Gospel for the Fifth Epoch, The four Mark, John,
                                Matthew, Luke....which calls down the star anchor points known as Mark the Lion; John the Eagle or Scorpio; Luke the bull; and Matthew the water bearer...."

                                Carol

                              • Stephen Hale
                                ... wrote: The Urim and the Thummin now reside in the heart as instruments that need to be rubbed together through the power of spiritual science. It was
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 13, 2007
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                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  "The Urim and the Thummin now reside in the heart as instruments that
                                  need to be rubbed together through the power of spiritual science."

                                  It was once possible for Hebrew priests to use these objects that
                                  symbolized divine love and divine wisdom to reveal the secrets of the
                                  imperishable record of truth held secure by the etheric world. Even
                                  the three wise men of the east who followed the majestic star, knowing
                                  that it would lead them to the place where the King of the Jews lived,
                                  had to ask King Herod for a reading out of this record in order to find
                                  the home where the two-year old boy lived. And Herod consulted his
                                  priests, who gave Bethlehem as the place.

                                  Steve
                                • Mark Willan
                                  Now done. Thanks Mark
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 14, 2007
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                                    Now done.

                                    Thanks

                                    Mark

                                    On 12 Jun 2007, at 7:22 AM, isenhart7 wrote:

                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mark Willan <mwillan@...> wrote:

                                    > I give it as an attachment, to avoid overloading by flowing the text
                                    > into this post.

                                    Dear Mark,

                                    My apologies if you get this request twice. I sent it earlier today and
                                    then unsent because it had (gasp) a typo in it. Anyway, I could not
                                    open your attachment and wonder if you could place your document in the
                                    file section of the list? Thanks, Val


                                  • Stephen Hale
                                    ... You know Mark, when you reiterate the thread on thinking, and how you found it so disappointing, and then conclude with words concerning writing you
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 14, 2007
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                                      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Mark Willan <mwillan@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Now done.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks
                                      >
                                      > Mark

                                      You know Mark, when you reiterate the thread on thinking, and how
                                      you found it so disappointing, and then conclude with words
                                      concerning writing you privately for your guidance on the path that
                                      rends the veil, I find it somewhat ingenuous; somewhat like an
                                      agenda for the likes of Scaligero, who would espouse the six
                                      exercises without exclusion. But here's the rub: earth evolution
                                      is in conflict. This means souls have to fight a battle against
                                      Soradt. Practising the six exercises certainly absolves this
                                      battle, yet it still must be fought. Maybe that is why Michael is
                                      regent today.

                                      I certainly don't discount the six exercises of KOHW, but if it
                                      would make me lax in fighting Soradt, I would have to put it off
                                      until the revolution was won.

                                      Steve
                                    • holderlin66
                                      Previously bradford brought; We also add the aspect that in order to understand how the Pyramid in Space, in geographic and accurate space was used as a
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 24, 2007
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                                        Previously bradford brought;
                                        "We also add the aspect that in order to understand how the Pyramid in Space, in geographic and accurate space was used as a launch point into the tip of the Pyramid which became what we call the tunnel in NDE or Near Death Experience or we can easily say, novice and initiation, pre-christ hierophant out of the body controlled experience... part of the additional studies we could undertake from the ground work of Christianity as Mystical Fact. You are required to imagine how the accurate spacial forces created out of the Pyramid launched the soul and the star boat out into the astral world of the stars after death....  These realities were part of the Science of the soul of the Egyptian period that now rumbles under Americanism and the Fifth Epoch. And how these spatial mathematical forces of the Pyramid rebounded on the soul, due to the consturction of the Pyramid, has become in the Fifth Epoch our ability to launch and drive ourselves out beyond the shores of gravity with force but no cognition. "

                                        Nasa and materialism and the materialistic view that everyone has of the stars, and the complete lack of interest in the vast astral aspect of the stars, shows that everyone carries this deep aversion to the Science of the Spirit, but the obvious error remains buried due in part to the vast Ahrimanic double that conspires to exclude the intimacies of initiation experience. Christianity as Mystical fact is still Fact and matter and the empty tomb remains Ahriman's most annoying insult. Aversion to the Christ Event is twisted in the knots of medical intelligence and base lies are brought through education regarding the nature of the human being and the higher devachan faculties we own. Egypt is reduced to some silly new age simplicity and the bridge between Spiritual Science and the denials of materialistic science cross right through, crash right through the human heart

                                          

                                        http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearch/pdf_docs/sdm_nde.pdf

                                        "During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the `crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: `Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: `Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."

                                        "…No medical, pharmacological, or psychological factor affected the frequency of the experience. People younger than 60 years had NDE more often than older people, and women, who were significantly older than men, had more frequent deep experiences than men."

                                        http://www.noetic.org/publications/review/issue61/r61_Grossman.html

                                        "One of my earliest encounters with this kind of academic irrationality occurred more than twenty years ago. I was devouring everything on the near-death experience I could get my hands on, and eager to share what I was discovering with colleagues. It was unbelievable to me how dismissive they were of the evidence. "Drug-induced hallucinations," "last gasp of a dying brain," and "people see what they want to see" were some of the more commonly used phrases. One conversation in particular caused me to see more clearly the fundamental irrationality of academics with respect to evidence against materialism. I asked, "What about people who accurately report the details of their operation?"

                                        "Oh," came the reply, "they probably just subconsciously heard the conversation in the operating room, and their brain subconsciously transposed the audio information into a visual format."

                                        "Well," I responded, "what about cases where people report veridical perception of events remote from their body?"

                                        "Oh, that's just a coincidence or a lucky guess."

                                        Exasperated, I asked, "What will it take, short of having a near-death experience yourself, to convince you that it's real?"

                                        Why NDE Evidence is Ignored

                                        Resistance to paradigm change: Ever since the publication of Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, the concept of a paradigm has been a familiar, useful, albeit sometimes controversial, tool. The concept of a paradigm helps us considerably in understanding scientific revolutions, when dramatic changes occur involving deep-rooted assumptions about how things are or how things must be. All academics matriculate within the context of a specific discipline that trains its practitioners to think in terms of the currently operating paradigm. Once the operating paradigm has been internalized in the mind of the individual, other competing paradigms appear wrong and/or foolish.

                                        To one who has internalized a paradigm, this way of approaching things appears to be right, reasonable, objective, and sensible. The paradigm itself is rarely questioned. It is the very water in which the academic philosopher swims, which is why it is so difficult for one who is immersed in the paradigm to see it as a paradigm, rather than as the way things "must be." Someone operating out of a different paradigm appears to be out of touch with reality, irrational, and so on.

                                        Intellectual arrogance: In addition to the normal kind of resistance with which any paradigm defends itself against change, the atheist paradigm of academia generally, and philosophy in particular, feels especially threatened by the findings of paranormal research. This is because intellectuals like to regard themselves as the highest manifestation of intelligence on the planet, if not in the universe. Embracing an evolutionary model according to which consciousness is correlated with brain development, intellectuals regard the human brain as the highest development of evolutionary forces, and an educated human brain as the highest of the high. Intellectuals like to feel that they are riding atop the crest of the wave of evolution.

                                        This intellectual smugness is greatly threatened by paranormal research, especially the NDE, the results of which strongly suggest (I am tempted to say "clearly show") that the human intellect is by no means the highest form of intelligence. The "Being of Light" in many NDEs is often described as infinite intelligence and love; moreover, intermediate between humans and God there appear to be many forms of non-embodied intelligence, greatly superior to our own. And furthermore, NDEers report that they feel themselves to be more alive and intelligent while out of the body than in the body. NDE research seems to be confirming Plato's view that the body acts as a damper on the soul's native intelligence, weighing it down, so to speak, so that the soul is not able to manifest its full intelligence as long as it is embodied in material form.—NG

                                        Very nonchalantly, without batting an eye, the response was "Even if I were to have a near-death experience myself, I would conclude that I was hallucinating, rather than believe that my mind can exist independently of my brain." He went on to add that dualism (the philosophical thesis that asserts mind and matter are independent substances, neither of which can be reduced to the other) is a false theory, and that there cannot be evidence for something that's false.

                                        This was a momentous experience for me, because here was an educated, intelligent man telling me that he will not give up materialism, no matter what. Even the evidence of his own experience would not cause him to give up materialism. I realized two things in that moment. First, this experience cured me of any impulse to argue these things with recalcitrant colleagues; it is pointless to argue with someone who tells me that his mind is already made up, and nothing I can say will change it. Second, this experience taught me that it is important to distinguish between (a) materialism as an empirical hypothesis about the nature of the world, which is amenable to evidence one way or the other (this is the hallmark of a scientific hypothesis—that evidence is relevant for its truth or falsity) and (b) materialism as an ideology, or paradigm, about how things "must" be, which is impervious to evidence (this is the hallmark of an unscientific hypothesis—that evidence is not relevant for its truth).

                                        My colleague believed in materialism not as a scientific hypothesis that, qua scientific hypothesis, might be false, but rather as dogma and ideology that "must" be true, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. For him, materialism is the fundamental paradigm in terms of which everything else is explained, but which is not itself open to doubt. I shall coin the term "fundamaterialist" to refer to those who believe that materialism is a necessary truth, not amenable to empirical evidence. I call it fundamaterialism to make explicit comparison with fundamentalism in religion. Fundamentalism connotes an attitude of certainty towards one's core belief. Just as the fundamentalist Christian is absolutely certain that the world was created in the manner described by The Bible (fossil evidence notwithstanding), so also the fundamaterialist is absolutely certain that there exists nothing that is not made up of matter or physical energy (NDE and other evidence notwithstanding). In fact, and this is the crucial point, their respective beliefs have nothing to do with evidence. As my fundamaterialist colleague put it, "There can't be evidence for something that's false."

                                        With respect to (a), materialism held as an empirical hypothesis about the world, the evidence against it is overwhelming. With respect to (b), materialism held as an ideology, evidence against it is logically impossible. A complicating factor is that the fundamaterialist typically holds the metabelief that his belief in materialism is not ideological, but empirical. That is, he misclassifies himself under (a), while his behavior clearly falls under (b). The debunker and skeptic believe they are being "scientific" in ignoring and rejecting the evidence against materialism. But when asked what kind of evidence it would take to convince them that materialism is empirically false, they are, like my colleague, usually at a loss for what to say. If they're not familiar with the data, they'll come up with a criterion of evidence that in fact has already been met. When it is pointed out that there exist many well-documented cases that satisfy the proposed criterion, they will simply make the criterion more stringent, and at some point they cross the line between the reasonable demand for scientific evidence and the unreasonable (and unscientific) demand for logical proof.

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