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Re: Fwd: Science of Goethean Conversation

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  • tmasthenes13
    Joel, It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl and his book and then discover that another book being published by Lindisfarne Press
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 24 2:00 PM
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      Joel,

      It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
      and his book and then discover that another book being published by
      Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
      a better response to your post than anything I could have written
      myself.

      Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
      creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
      both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
      Consciousness Soul Age.

      Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
      demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
      cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
      outlet for that energy. ;=}

      Tom

      _____________________________________

      This link goes right to the book

      http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
      session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309

      _____________________________________________

      Creative Envy

      The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces

      Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.

      Chiron Publications

      March 2004


      Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
      archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
      and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
      creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
      Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
      the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.

      He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
      Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
      and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
      originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
      Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
      extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
      development.

      --- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---

      is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
      Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
      Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
      Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
      of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
      Personality, as well as many articles.
      ---------------------------------------

      Joel Wendt wrote:

      > Dear Tom,
      >
      > I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
      > anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
      them to
      > the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
      with
      > an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
      errors
      > of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
      > socially inept genius I have ever met.
      >
      > He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
      > others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
      > conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
      woven
      > into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
      >
      > He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
      > anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
      what
      > happened while I was there).
      >
      > I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
      even
      > brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
      with
      > others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
      > conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
      no
      > familiarity with such an experience.
      >
      > Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
      > abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
      reach
      > into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
      of
      > language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
      much
      > that is human in it.
      >
      >
    • Joel Wendt
      Dear Tom, It is always fun to read your humorous analysis of someone you hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you ve never read, all in
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 24 7:41 PM
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        Dear Tom,

        It is always fun to read your "humorous analysis" of someone you
        hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you've never
        read, all in the course of a dialog about Carl, who you have also never
        met (I believe).

        Fictions (analysis of me) compared to fictions (ideas about a book
        you've never read), all in relation to a fictional personality (someone
        else you never met). Don't know how much truth you get there, but to
        each his own, I guess. Maybe that's what it takes to be humorous.

        I am glad you are going to read a book, even two. Now if you would
        just read one of mine, or better yet, read me as a person. Then maybe
        your humorous analysis would not be so "fictional".

        By the way, where are you living these days? I think you said where
        in another context, but I seem to have forgotten.

        love,
        joel

        tmasthenes13 wrote:

        >Joel,
        >
        >It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
        >and his book and then discover that another book being published by
        >Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
        >a better response to your post than anything I could have written
        >myself.
        >
        >Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
        >creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
        >both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
        >Consciousness Soul Age.
        >
        >Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
        >demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
        >cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
        >outlet for that energy. ;=}
        >
        >Tom
        >
        >_____________________________________
        >
        >This link goes right to the book
        >
        >http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
        >session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309
        >
        >_____________________________________________
        >
        >Creative Envy
        >
        >The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces
        >
        >Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.
        >
        >Chiron Publications
        >
        >March 2004
        >
        >
        >Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
        >archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
        >and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
        >creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
        >Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
        >the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.
        >
        >He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
        >Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
        >and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
        >originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
        >Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
        >extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
        >development.
        >
        >--- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---
        >
        >is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
        >Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
        >Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
        >Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
        >of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
        >Personality, as well as many articles.
        >---------------------------------------
        >
        >Joel Wendt wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>Dear Tom,
        >>
        >> I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
        >>anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
        >>
        >>
        >them to
        >
        >
        >>the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
        >>
        >>
        >with
        >
        >
        >>an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
        >>
        >>
        >errors
        >
        >
        >>of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
        >>socially inept genius I have ever met.
        >>
        >> He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
        >>others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
        >>conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
        >>
        >>
        >woven
        >
        >
        >>into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
        >>
        >> He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
        >>anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
        >>
        >>
        >what
        >
        >
        >>happened while I was there).
        >>
        >> I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
        >>
        >>
        >even
        >
        >
        >>brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
        >>
        >>
        >with
        >
        >
        >>others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
        >>conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
        >>
        >>
        >no
        >
        >
        >>familiarity with such an experience.
        >>
        >> Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
        >>abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
        >>
        >>
        >reach
        >
        >
        >>into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
        >>
        >>
        >of
        >
        >
        >>language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
        >>
        >>
        >much
        >
        >
        >>that is human in it.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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