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Re: [anthroposophy] Fwd: Science of Goethean Conversation

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  • Joel Wendt
    Dear Mark, One of the critical matters with which that last century transitioned into the current one, was the publication of Irina Gordienko s book: Sergie.
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 22 5:01 PM
      Dear Mark,

      One of the critical matters with which that last century
      transitioned into the current one, was the publication of Irina
      Gordienko's book: Sergie. O. Prokofieff: Myth and Reality. The main
      theme of that work was whether Anthroposophy was science, and if so what
      that meant. After establishing those parameters, which included the
      necessity to think critically about work published within the
      anthroposophical sphere of culture, she preceded to dismantle
      Prokofieff's work as lacking a connection to the consciousness soul, and
      Steiner's epistemologies. She also established that his work was full
      of logical inconsistencies, some no more separated than by a single
      paragraph. And what she considered the greatest flaw was Prokofieff
      teaching of material clearly inconsistent with Steiner's work, while all
      the while nobody noticed because critical thinking was absent in the
      movement and many people mistake spirituality for being "nice".

      An over arching implication was that Prokofieff's work was
      "luciferic" - a danger not far from the current state of the Russian Soul

      In America, the doubles take us mostly in a "ahrimanic" direction -
      all intellect and will and no heart.

      Gordienko also discussed her view that we do each other no "good" by
      ignoring such tendencies, which is why I spoke of these matters with
      Prokofieff at Ann Arbor last summer for about 20 minutes.

      I would be just as frank with Carl.

      warm regards,
      joel



      Mark Moodie wrote:

      >Hi Joel
      >
      >I have no experience of Carl Flygt but what you wrote reminded me of a
      >saying - the fish is the last one to discover water . Just in case this
      >doesn't speak for itself I take it to mean that the very estrangement from a
      >milieu may give one a (useful and) unique view.
      >
      >Mark
      >
      >On 21/4/06 9:10 pm, "Joel Wendt" wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy with
      >>others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
      >>conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had no
      >>familiarity with such an experience.
      >>
      >>
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      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • tmasthenes13
      Joel, It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl and his book and then discover that another book being published by Lindisfarne Press
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 24 2:00 PM
        Joel,

        It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
        and his book and then discover that another book being published by
        Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
        a better response to your post than anything I could have written
        myself.

        Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
        creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
        both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
        Consciousness Soul Age.

        Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
        demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
        cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
        outlet for that energy. ;=}

        Tom

        _____________________________________

        This link goes right to the book

        http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
        session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309

        _____________________________________________

        Creative Envy

        The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces

        Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.

        Chiron Publications

        March 2004


        Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
        archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
        and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
        creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
        Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
        the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.

        He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
        Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
        and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
        originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
        Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
        extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
        development.

        --- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---

        is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
        Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
        Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
        Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
        of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
        Personality, as well as many articles.
        ---------------------------------------

        Joel Wendt wrote:

        > Dear Tom,
        >
        > I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
        > anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
        them to
        > the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
        with
        > an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
        errors
        > of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
        > socially inept genius I have ever met.
        >
        > He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
        > others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
        > conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
        woven
        > into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
        >
        > He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
        > anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
        what
        > happened while I was there).
        >
        > I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
        even
        > brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
        with
        > others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
        > conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
        no
        > familiarity with such an experience.
        >
        > Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
        > abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
        reach
        > into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
        of
        > language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
        much
        > that is human in it.
        >
        >
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Tom, It is always fun to read your humorous analysis of someone you hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you ve never read, all in
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 24 7:41 PM
          Dear Tom,

          It is always fun to read your "humorous analysis" of someone you
          hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you've never
          read, all in the course of a dialog about Carl, who you have also never
          met (I believe).

          Fictions (analysis of me) compared to fictions (ideas about a book
          you've never read), all in relation to a fictional personality (someone
          else you never met). Don't know how much truth you get there, but to
          each his own, I guess. Maybe that's what it takes to be humorous.

          I am glad you are going to read a book, even two. Now if you would
          just read one of mine, or better yet, read me as a person. Then maybe
          your humorous analysis would not be so "fictional".

          By the way, where are you living these days? I think you said where
          in another context, but I seem to have forgotten.

          love,
          joel

          tmasthenes13 wrote:

          >Joel,
          >
          >It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
          >and his book and then discover that another book being published by
          >Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
          >a better response to your post than anything I could have written
          >myself.
          >
          >Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
          >creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
          >both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
          >Consciousness Soul Age.
          >
          >Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
          >demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
          >cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
          >outlet for that energy. ;=}
          >
          >Tom
          >
          >_____________________________________
          >
          >This link goes right to the book
          >
          >http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
          >session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309
          >
          >_____________________________________________
          >
          >Creative Envy
          >
          >The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces
          >
          >Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.
          >
          >Chiron Publications
          >
          >March 2004
          >
          >
          >Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
          >archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
          >and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
          >creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
          >Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
          >the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.
          >
          >He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
          >Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
          >and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
          >originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
          >Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
          >extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
          >development.
          >
          >--- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---
          >
          >is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
          >Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
          >Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
          >Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
          >of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
          >Personality, as well as many articles.
          >---------------------------------------
          >
          >Joel Wendt wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >>Dear Tom,
          >>
          >> I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
          >>anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
          >>
          >>
          >them to
          >
          >
          >>the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
          >>
          >>
          >with
          >
          >
          >>an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
          >>
          >>
          >errors
          >
          >
          >>of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
          >>socially inept genius I have ever met.
          >>
          >> He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
          >>others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
          >>conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
          >>
          >>
          >woven
          >
          >
          >>into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
          >>
          >> He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
          >>anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
          >>
          >>
          >what
          >
          >
          >>happened while I was there).
          >>
          >> I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
          >>
          >>
          >even
          >
          >
          >>brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
          >>
          >>
          >with
          >
          >
          >>others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
          >>conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
          >>
          >>
          >no
          >
          >
          >>familiarity with such an experience.
          >>
          >> Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
          >>abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
          >>
          >>
          >reach
          >
          >
          >>into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
          >>
          >>
          >of
          >
          >
          >>language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
          >>
          >>
          >much
          >
          >
          >>that is human in it.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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