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Fwd: Science of Goethean Conversation

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  • TomBuoyed@aol.com
    30 years ago Marjorie Spock (Benjy s sister!) wrote the ART of Goethean Conversation. Now we have a new book by Carl H. Flygt called Conversation - A New
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 21, 2006
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      AOL Email
       
    • Joel Wendt
      TomBuoyed@aol.com wrote: stuff informing us about Carl s new book. Dear Tom, I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same anthroposophical
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 21, 2006
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        TomBuoyed@... wrote: stuff informing us about Carl's new book.

        Dear Tom,

        I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
        anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present them to
        the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist, with
        an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the errors
        of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
        socially inept genius I have ever met.

        He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
        others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
        conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly woven
        into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.

        He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
        anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is what
        happened while I was there).

        I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable, even
        brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy with
        others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
        conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had no
        familiarity with such an experience.

        Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
        abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to reach
        into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories of
        language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has much
        that is human in it.

        Here is a paragraph from the end of a short essay of his, entitled:
        The Mathematics of Freedom:

        "On my theory, real conversation depends on everyone involved being
        self-conscious and free, and in one way or another intimate with his
        (her) Holy Guardian Angel. If we were to establish a protocol for
        sustaining self-conscious speech actions, for stipulating conditions
        under which universal moral law applies to every gesture of the brain
        and body and simultaneously make measurements or other objective
        assessments that establish how the brain is performing self-conscious
        actions, then we would be in a position, in principle, to measure human
        freedom and to apply that measure broadly to educational and social
        situations. That measure would be sufficient, moreover, if it were
        applied correctly and in the right institutional context, to transform
        global culture into a world much like the dreams of our fondest desires."

        Imagine then a cold and calculating intellect, unfamiliar inwardly
        with the real nature of thinking, or of the moral impulses of the heart
        as directed toward other human beings, devising a "theory" out of which
        we could "measure" human freedom. Does this describe anyone we are
        expecting to come visit us, or perhaps one of His friends?

        Food for thought...

        warm regards,
        joel
      • Mark Moodie
        Hi Joel I have no experience of Carl Flygt but what you wrote reminded me of a saying - the fish is the last one to discover water . Just in case this doesn t
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 21, 2006
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          Hi Joel

          I have no experience of Carl Flygt but what you wrote reminded me of a
          saying - the fish is the last one to discover water . Just in case this
          doesn't speak for itself I take it to mean that the very estrangement from a
          milieu may give one a (useful and) unique view.

          Mark

          On 21/4/06 9:10 pm, "Joel Wendt" wrote:

          > I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy with
          > others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
          > conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had no
          > familiarity with such an experience.
        • Joel Wendt
          Dear Mark, One of the critical matters with which that last century transitioned into the current one, was the publication of Irina Gordienko s book: Sergie.
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 22, 2006
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            Dear Mark,

            One of the critical matters with which that last century
            transitioned into the current one, was the publication of Irina
            Gordienko's book: Sergie. O. Prokofieff: Myth and Reality. The main
            theme of that work was whether Anthroposophy was science, and if so what
            that meant. After establishing those parameters, which included the
            necessity to think critically about work published within the
            anthroposophical sphere of culture, she preceded to dismantle
            Prokofieff's work as lacking a connection to the consciousness soul, and
            Steiner's epistemologies. She also established that his work was full
            of logical inconsistencies, some no more separated than by a single
            paragraph. And what she considered the greatest flaw was Prokofieff
            teaching of material clearly inconsistent with Steiner's work, while all
            the while nobody noticed because critical thinking was absent in the
            movement and many people mistake spirituality for being "nice".

            An over arching implication was that Prokofieff's work was
            "luciferic" - a danger not far from the current state of the Russian Soul

            In America, the doubles take us mostly in a "ahrimanic" direction -
            all intellect and will and no heart.

            Gordienko also discussed her view that we do each other no "good" by
            ignoring such tendencies, which is why I spoke of these matters with
            Prokofieff at Ann Arbor last summer for about 20 minutes.

            I would be just as frank with Carl.

            warm regards,
            joel



            Mark Moodie wrote:

            >Hi Joel
            >
            >I have no experience of Carl Flygt but what you wrote reminded me of a
            >saying - the fish is the last one to discover water . Just in case this
            >doesn't speak for itself I take it to mean that the very estrangement from a
            >milieu may give one a (useful and) unique view.
            >
            >Mark
            >
            >On 21/4/06 9:10 pm, "Joel Wendt" wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy with
            >>others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
            >>conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had no
            >>familiarity with such an experience.
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • tmasthenes13
            Joel, It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl and his book and then discover that another book being published by Lindisfarne Press
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 24, 2006
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              Joel,

              It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
              and his book and then discover that another book being published by
              Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
              a better response to your post than anything I could have written
              myself.

              Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
              creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
              both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
              Consciousness Soul Age.

              Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
              demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
              cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
              outlet for that energy. ;=}

              Tom

              _____________________________________

              This link goes right to the book

              http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
              session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309

              _____________________________________________

              Creative Envy

              The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces

              Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.

              Chiron Publications

              March 2004


              Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
              archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
              and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
              creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
              Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
              the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.

              He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
              Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
              and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
              originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
              Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
              extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
              development.

              --- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---

              is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
              Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
              Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
              Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
              of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
              Personality, as well as many articles.
              ---------------------------------------

              Joel Wendt wrote:

              > Dear Tom,
              >
              > I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
              > anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
              them to
              > the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
              with
              > an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
              errors
              > of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
              > socially inept genius I have ever met.
              >
              > He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
              > others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
              > conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
              woven
              > into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
              >
              > He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
              > anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
              what
              > happened while I was there).
              >
              > I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
              even
              > brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
              with
              > others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
              > conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
              no
              > familiarity with such an experience.
              >
              > Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
              > abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
              reach
              > into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
              of
              > language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
              much
              > that is human in it.
              >
              >
            • Joel Wendt
              Dear Tom, It is always fun to read your humorous analysis of someone you hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you ve never read, all in
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 24, 2006
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                Dear Tom,

                It is always fun to read your "humorous analysis" of someone you
                hardly know (me). And, to read you relate it to a book you've never
                read, all in the course of a dialog about Carl, who you have also never
                met (I believe).

                Fictions (analysis of me) compared to fictions (ideas about a book
                you've never read), all in relation to a fictional personality (someone
                else you never met). Don't know how much truth you get there, but to
                each his own, I guess. Maybe that's what it takes to be humorous.

                I am glad you are going to read a book, even two. Now if you would
                just read one of mine, or better yet, read me as a person. Then maybe
                your humorous analysis would not be so "fictional".

                By the way, where are you living these days? I think you said where
                in another context, but I seem to have forgotten.

                love,
                joel

                tmasthenes13 wrote:

                >Joel,
                >
                >It was quite a synchronicity for me to read your evaluation of Carl
                >and his book and then discover that another book being published by
                >Lindisfarne Press alongside of Carl's would, by its title alone, be
                >a better response to your post than anything I could have written
                >myself.
                >
                >Far be it from me to presume to judge that you might need your own
                >creativity enhanced in this specific area, but I do intend to read
                >both books, as we all are in need of improvement in this phase of the
                >Consciousness Soul Age.
                >
                >Also, the word "rescue" appears in the subtitle and since you
                >demonstrate such a strong penchant for rescuing--- people, souls,
                >cultures, civilizations, etc., --- I thought you might find a new
                >outlet for that energy. ;=}
                >
                >Tom
                >
                >_____________________________________
                >
                >This link goes right to the book
                >
                >http://www.lindisfarne.org/detail.html?
                >session=797306b013e0be880df6babdd9b89dea&cat=17&id=1888602309
                >
                >_____________________________________________
                >
                >Creative Envy
                >
                >The Rescue of One of Civilization's Major Forces
                >
                >Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.
                >
                >Chiron Publications
                >
                >March 2004
                >
                >
                >Based on Jungian symbolic psychology, this book attributes an
                >archetypal foundation to the ego defense mechanisms of psychoanalysis
                >and describes the possibility that all psychological functions are
                >creative or defensive. Analyzing Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus,
                >Byington describes envy as functioning creatively and defensively in
                >the relationship between Mozart and Salieri.
                >
                >He demonstrates how psychoanalysis followed the biblical book of
                >Genesis and the Christian doctrine of original sin
                >and "scientifically" stigmatized envy. He asserts that this bias
                >originated in severe cultural pathology, which greatly distorted the
                >Christian myth by repressing creative envy because of its
                >extraordinary revolutionary potential for individual and cultural
                >development.
                >
                >--- Carlos Amadeu Botelho Byington, M.D.---
                >
                >is a psychiatrist and Jungian analyst, graduated at the C.G. Jung
                >Institute in Zürich and founding member of the Brazilian Society for
                >Analytical Psychology. He is the author of numerous books, including
                >Jungian Symbolic Education; The Development of Personality; Structure
                >of Personality: Persona and Shadow; Symbolic Dimensions of
                >Personality, as well as many articles.
                >---------------------------------------
                >
                >Joel Wendt wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >>Dear Tom,
                >>
                >> I knew Carl Flygt several years ago. We were both in the same
                >>anthroposophical study group. He would write papers and present
                >>
                >>
                >them to
                >
                >
                >>the group on the themes we were discussing. He would also insist,
                >>
                >>
                >with
                >
                >
                >>an amazing stubbornness, on the correctness of his views and the
                >>
                >>
                >errors
                >
                >
                >>of thought of the rest of us. He was perhaps, the most amazingly
                >>socially inept genius I have ever met.
                >>
                >> He could not use ordinary language, sustain a conversation with
                >>others that mirrored their views, or participate in the circle of
                >>conversation in a way in which the themes presented were slowly
                >>
                >>
                >woven
                >
                >
                >>into a chalice through which higher worlds could speak.
                >>
                >> He is the only person I know who was ever kicked out of an
                >>anthroposophical study group for anti-social behavior (which is
                >>
                >>
                >what
                >
                >
                >>happened while I was there).
                >>
                >> I don't doubt for a moment that his writings are remarkable,
                >>
                >>
                >even
                >
                >
                >>brilliant. I wonder how, given his clear inability to have empathy
                >>
                >>
                >with
                >
                >
                >>others, he could actually write a true account of the nature of
                >>conversation as a moral process of human interaction, since he had
                >>
                >>
                >no
                >
                >
                >>familiarity with such an experience.
                >>
                >> Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that he has, in a very
                >>abstract way, woven together a set of concepts that appears to
                >>
                >>
                >reach
                >
                >
                >>into the frontiers of integrating research uniting various theories
                >>
                >>
                >of
                >
                >
                >>language and consciousness. However, I just wonder whether it has
                >>
                >>
                >much
                >
                >
                >>that is human in it.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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