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Re: [anthroposophy] Knowledge Understanding

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  • Joel Wendt
    ... Dear Hogie, My sense is that it is not so much texts that are needed, but conversation. We mutualize the meanings in the openness with which we share
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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      Hogie McM wrote:
      Any suggestions for further texts for studying these terms outside of the Basic Books?
       
      The living creative basis behind every word, which carries different meanings in different contexts, to me unlocks a  door to the New Mysteries that requires
      fundamental understanding of words as the first steps toward becoming one with the Spirit, while retaining I-Consciousness, either within a physical body as we know it, or while living in the Spirit World before next incarnations  The Holy Ghost = The Holy Phantom = The Holy Body = The Holy Logos = The Holy Word.
      Dear Hogie,

          My sense is that it is not so much texts that are needed, but conversation.  We "mutualize" the meanings in the openness with which we share our experience with one another.  The "terms" then only have that "meaning" they need in the moment that works for the conversation, whereas with a text the temptation (as you noted) would be to define in some absolute sense that which each will see from a slightly different perspective.

          It is in conversation that the New Mysteries arise.  Help will come from above, if we are doing the work carefully below.  Our souls will rise and Grace will reach down, until the two meet in the central rite of the New Mysteries, the Reverse Cultus.

      warm regards,
      joel
    • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
      These voices coming over the information age net are great. It reminds me of The Lord of the Rings or any great epic adventure when a new child has been
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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        These voices coming over the information age net are great.  It reminds me of The Lord of the Rings or any great epic adventure when a new child has been granted something life affirming, life sustaining.  Anthro is that life sustaining.  I feel like Froto with new hope.  Its just good thats all.
         
        "And until you truly have
        This ""dying and becoming,""
        You are but a troubled guest
        Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Bart, I met Steiner around age 38-39. I am currently 65. I had already been practicing introspection for 7 years when I started reading Steiner. I wrote
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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          Dear Bart,

              I met Steiner around age 38-39.  I am currently 65.  I had already been practicing introspection for 7 years when I started reading Steiner.

              I wrote a book at the cusp of 63-64, 33 years after starting introspection, called: the Way of the Fool: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/twotf.html.

          warm regards,
          joel
             
          BAle2391@... wrote:
          Greetings Joel,
              Thank you for your reply. Your so right about words, meanings and use. I have studied a few of Rudolf Steiners books, articles and lectures, Philosophy of Freedom, Christianity as Mystical Fact, Theosophy, Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, Guidance in Esoteric Training, Occult Science, Anthroposphical Leading Thoughts and assorted lectures. I found Steiner or he found me looking into the Waldorf School sys. I mention the above so that you might see that I have immersed myself in this Spiritual Science and perhaps have some feel for the vocabulary and terms you mention, not as much as yourself, but I'm willing to learn and seek guidance. No arrogance intended, absolute totality of His past, figure of speech on my part for the part He plays in my being at the present, it's a love affair...
              How old were you when you found Rudolf Steiner and his works?
                                                                       Adios,
                                                                           Bart

        • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/20/2005 10:35:57 AM Central Standard Time, hermit@tiac.net writes: Steiner was very concerned that Anthroposophy not lead to some kind
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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            In a message dated 12/20/2005 10:35:57 AM Central Standard Time, hermit@... writes:
            Steiner was very concerned that Anthroposophy not lead to some kind of vague mysticism, but rather that we be able to speak to each other about the universal (shared) aspects of soul, so he gives us a vocabulary of which the following are some of the terms: experience, thought, percept, concept, antipathy, sympathy, necessary given, subject, object, moral imagination, moral intuition, and moral technique.

                I look forward to the day when these terms become more crucial to us than: hierarchy, angels, Michael as Time Spirit and all the other stuff many anthroposophists can be found discussing endlessly.  On that day we will really start to meet each other in the practice of the New Mysteries.

            warm regards,
            joel

            Interestingly enough lets go there Joel.  I am wondering about the "necessary given" trying to fit that in.  Unfortunately I will be on a two week seasonal vacation for two weeks.  Lets pick this up and get a move on.  Maybe a reading of the Philosophy of Freedom could be a starter.  ~Much warmth, Chantel
             
            "And until you truly have
            This ""dying and becoming,""
            You are but a troubled guest
            Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
          • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
            Joel, wow, that is much appreciated. I will look into the way of the fool . thanks And until you truly have This dying and becoming, You are but a
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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              Joel, wow, that is much appreciated.  I will look into "the way of the fool".  thanks
               
              "And until you truly have
              This ""dying and becoming,""
              You are but a troubled guest
              Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
            • BAle2391@aol.com
              Greetings Joel, Thank you so much for your answer back so quickly, there are no accidents. I am 73 and counting, having a bout with cancer but on the mend.
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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                Greetings Joel,
                   Thank you so much for your answer back so quickly, there are no accidents. I am 73 and counting, having a bout with cancer but on the mend. Like yourself I have sought the Spiritual most of my life, to include my youth. Studied them all but did not see the thread running through them until Steiner, now I can't put him down. It is like talking with an old friend.
                   I will have to wait until tomorrow to copy your book, ink and paper short after Steiner. I'm looking forward reading you...
                                                                            Adios,
                                                                                Bart
              • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                Greetings Bart, I have been dealing with so much cancer around me I feel as if I walk among you! Much healing comes your way from me. That is what I do I
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 20, 2005
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                  Greetings Bart, I have been dealing with so much cancer around me I feel as if I walk among you!  Much healing comes your way from me.  That is what I do I am part healer.  Go cancer awareness!  Chantel
                   
                  "And until you truly have
                  This ""dying and becoming,""
                  You are but a troubled guest
                  Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
                • Hogie McM
                  Joel: So, taking your suggestion to heart, why not pick a term (say, percept), one at a time, and have terxtual conversation right here on this post about the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                    Joel:
                    So, taking your suggestion to heart, why not pick a term (say, percept), one at a time, and have terxtual conversation right here
                    on this post about the term, and learn from each other.
                     
                    "Just a thought",
                    Hogire
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 7:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Knowledge Understanding

                    Hogie McM wrote:
                    Any suggestions for further texts for studying these terms outside of the Basic Books?
                     
                    The living creative basis behind every word, which carries different meanings in different contexts, to me unlocks a  door to the New Mysteries that requires
                    fundamental understanding of words as the first steps toward becoming one with the Spirit, while retaining I-Consciousness, either within a physical body as we know it, or while living in the Spirit World before next incarnations  The Holy Ghost = The Holy Phantom = The Holy Body = The Holy Logos = The Holy Word.
                    Dear Hogie,

                        My sense is that it is not so much texts that are needed, but conversation.  We "mutualize" the meanings in the openness with which we share our experience with one another.  The "terms" then only have that "meaning" they need in the moment that works for the conversation, whereas with a text the temptation (as you noted) would be to define in some absolute sense that which each will see from a slightly different perspective.

                        It is in conversation that the New Mysteries arise.  Help will come from above, if we are doing the work carefully below.  Our souls will rise and Grace will reach down, until the two meet in the central rite of the New Mysteries, the Reverse Cultus.

                    warm regards,
                    joel
                  • Joel Wendt
                    ... That s the thing, though, isn t it. Is there just a thought , or is it always something more? Percept can t be discussed without concept, in my view.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                      Hogie McM wrote:
                      Joel:
                      So, taking your suggestion to heart, why not pick a term (say, percept), one at a time, and have terxtual conversation right here
                      on this post about the term, and learn from each other.
                       
                      "Just a thought",
                      That's the thing, though, isn't it.  Is there "just a thought", or is it always something more?

                      Percept can't be discussed without concept, in my view.  Sort of like discussion subject and object singly, or any other term which carries an implied opposite.

                      I have experiences (percepts), and I have thoughts (concepts).  What is the nature of my experience of thoughts?  Do I have a percept of a concept?  Can they be separated?  What is revealed to my introspection in the face of such questions?  What is introspection?  What is a question as an experience?  What is my experience of a question?

                      Whoa!

                      And, to not lose the context: What has this to do with Anthroposophy?

                      warm regards,
                      joel
                    • Hogie McM
                      Joel I see it, it is at the Root of anthroposophy. And Yes, as St. Thomas Aquinas said, it takes at least 3 words to define one word. and 9 more words to
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 21, 2005
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                        Joel
                        I see it, it is at the Root of anthroposophy.
                        And Yes, as St. Thomas Aquinas said, it takes at least 3 words to define one word.
                        and 9 more words to define those 3, etc.
                         
                        I concur that to discuss one term requires at least and an opposite term, and I would
                        posit that an opposite, and also a central term balancing the 2 opposites is also required, just as Christ is the
                        balancing bridge between Lucifer and Ahriman.
                         
                        If the bridge is realized and consciously experienced, then a synthesis takes place which unifies the opposites
                        into a single whole, thus illuminating the overall reality behind all worlds.
                         
                         
                         
                        Best,
                        Hogie
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:21 AM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy] just a thought

                        Hogie McM wrote:
                        Joel:
                        So, taking your suggestion to heart, why not pick a term (say, percept), one at a time, and have terxtual conversation right here
                        on this post about the term, and learn from each other.
                         
                        "Just a thought",
                        That's the thing, though, isn't it.  Is there "just a thought", or is it always something more?

                        Percept can't be discussed without concept, in my view.  Sort of like discussion subject and object singly, or any other term which carries an implied opposite.

                        I have experiences (percepts), and I have thoughts (concepts).  What is the nature of my experience of thoughts?  Do I have a percept of a concept?  Can they be separated?  What is revealed to my introspection in the face of such questions?  What is introspection?  What is a question as an experience?  What is my experience of a question?

                        Whoa!

                        And, to not lose the context: What has this to do with Anthroposophy?

                        warm regards,
                        joel
                      • Adrian Hansen
                        Hello Chantel, Maybe this site might interest you,I just discovered it and are interested myself to make a start on Philisophy of Freedom,Love Adrian
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 22, 2005
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                          Hello Chantel,
                          Maybe this site might interest you,I just discovered it and are interested myself to make a start on Philisophy of Freedom,Love Adrian
                          http://www.philosophyoffreedom.com/

                          Cheeseandsalsa@... wrote:
                          In a message dated 12/20/2005 10:35:57 AM Central Standard Time, hermit@... writes:
                          Steiner was very concerned that Anthroposophy not lead to some kind of vague mysticism, but rather that we be able to speak to each other about the universal (shared) aspects of soul, so he gives us a vocabulary of which the following are some of the terms: experience, thought, percept, concept, antipathy, sympathy, necessary given, subject, object, moral imagination, moral intuition, and moral technique.

                              I look forward to the day when these terms become more crucial to us than: hierarchy, angels, Michael as Time Spirit and all the other stuff many anthroposophists can be found discussing endlessly.  On that day we will really start to meet each other in the practice of the New Mysteries.

                          warm regards,
                          joel

                          Interestingly enough lets go there Joel.  I am wondering about the "necessary given" trying to fit that in.  Unfortunately I will be on a two week seasonal vacation for two weeks.  Lets pick this up and get a move on.  Maybe a reading of the Philosophy of Freedom could be a starter.  ~Much warmth, Chantel
                           
                          "And until you truly have
                          This ""dying and becoming,""
                          You are but a troubled guest
                          Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe

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