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Re: [anthroposophy] minds (as in, hearts AND minds!)

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  • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
    lazul, answering your faith question a little more. The Robert Frost poem comes to mind. The Road Not Taken Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 16, 2005
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      lazul,
      answering your faith question a little more.  The Robert Frost poem comes to mind.
       
      The Road Not Taken

      Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
      And sorry I could not travel both
      And be one traveler, long I stood
      And looked down one as far as I could
      To where it bent in the undergrowth;

      Then took the other, as just as fair,
      And having perhaps the better claim,
      Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
      Though as for that the passing there
      Had worn them really about the same,

      And both that morning equally lay
      In leaves no step had trodden black.
      Oh, I kept the first for another day!
      Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
      I doubted if I should ever come back.

      I shall be telling this with a sigh
      Somewhere ages and ages hence:
      Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
      I took the one less traveled by,
      And that has made all the difference.

            -- Robert FrostThe Road Not Taken
      "And until you truly have
      This ""dying and becoming,""
      You are but a troubled guest
      Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
    • Maurice McCarthy
      I can only tell you what happened to myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 17, 2005
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        I can only tell you what happened to myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially due to gaining insight into the sacrifices these beings have made for us. Imagine sacrificing not only your eyes but just about all sensation for the sake of your children. The only thing the highest angels see of the Earth is the death of the butterflies as scintillations of light. From this meagre perception that have to interpret all they can as to what is happening here. All the joy of seeing their spiritual children grow they have sacrificed for our sake.

        Don't know where to point you to make a beginning but for some reason I keep thinking of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.

        Maurice


        On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 06:08:57PM -0800 or thereabouts, iazul wrote:
        > Hi Maurice,
        > Thanks for being kind and patient and answering so
        > clearly yet another of my extra basic questions!!
        > I have another question but this may be more
        > complicated: the hierarchies are a very intellectual
        > concept for me. How do make them more real?? I am not
        > sure it's a well-formulated question...I mean real as
        > in not distant ideas, but "real", present in our
        > lives. If this is possible of course.
        > Hope you and all in this list have a good weekend!
        > Best wishes and thanks again, Maurice.
        > Iazul
        >
        >
      • Joel Wendt
        ... Dear Maurice, I want to interject a note of caution here. Unless you ve done something of which you otherwise don t give evidence, you don t know that
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 17, 2005
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          Maurice McCarthy wrote:

          >I can only tell you what happened to myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially due to gaining insight into the sacrifices these beings have made for us. Imagine sacrificing not only your eyes but just about all sensation for the sake of your children. The only thing the highest angels see of the Earth is the death of the butterflies as scintillations of light. From this meagre perception that have to interpret all they can as to what is happening here. All the joy of seeing their spiritual children grow they have sacrificed for our sake.
          >
          >Don't know where to point you to make a beginning but for some reason I keep thinking of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.
          >
          >
          Dear Maurice,

          I want to interject a note of caution here. Unless you've done
          something of which you otherwise don't give evidence, you don't "know"
          that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack the relevant percept
          (experience). You may have an "understanding" of such a thing based
          upon something Steiner said (his providing of a percept-less concept),
          but that "understanding" is entirely dependent upon the accuracy of
          Steiner's research and his ability to represent his "experience and
          knowledge" in language.

          This distinction between "knowing" and "understanding" is crucial to
          appreciating what Anthroposophy actually is - that is, it is not the
          content of the reports of the spiritual scientist, but rather the methed
          (the how) - the path of cognition (heart-thinking) which gives birth to
          the modern clair-thinking never before possible in human evolution.

          This confusion (about the difference between knowing and
          understanding) is epidemic in anthroposophical circles, and has lamed
          the Society and Movement. As we enter the tasks of the 21st Century,
          students of Steiner must return to the basics (the epistemologies), or
          knowledge of the "how" of heart-thinking will be lost.

          warm regards,
          joel
        • Adrian Hansen
          Dear Joel, Do you mean to say that all experiences we have in life are worthless because we dont know or are not able to understand what epistemology is about?
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 17, 2005
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            Dear Joel,
             
            Do you mean to say that all experiences we have in life are worthless because we dont know or are not able to understand what epistemology is about?
            Didn't Steiner say that by reading about spiritual science we are preparing ourselves for the future ? Do you think we all have to become spiritual scientist to make the grade? I agree with you that to verify the things Steiner has said we have to follow a certain path, but do we want to verify everything Steiner has said?
            Kind Regards, Adrian

            Joel Wendt <hermit@...> wrote:
            Maurice McCarthy wrote:

            >I can only tell you what happened to  myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially due to gaining insight into the sacrifices these beings have made for us. Imagine sacrificing not only your eyes but just about all sensation for the sake of your children. The only thing the highest angels see of the Earth is the death of the butterflies as scintillations of light. From this meagre perception that have to interpret all they can as to what is happening here. All the joy of seeing their spiritual children grow they have sacrificed for our sake.
            >
            >Don't know where to point you to make a beginning but for some reason I keep thinking of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.

            >
            Dear Maurice,

                I want to interject a note of caution here.  Unless you've done
            something of which you otherwise don't give evidence, you don't "know"
            that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack the relevant percept
            (experience).  You may have an "understanding" of such a thing based
            upon something Steiner said (his providing of a percept-less concept),
            but that "understanding" is entirely dependent upon the accuracy of
            Steiner's research and his ability to represent his "experience and
            knowledge" in language.

                This distinction between "knowing" and "understanding" is crucial to
            appreciating what Anthroposophy actually is - that is, it is not the
            content of the reports of the spiritual scientist, but rather the methed
            (the how) - the path of cognition (heart-thinking) which gives birth to
            the modern clair-thinking never before possible in human evolution.

                This confusion (about the difference between knowing and
            understanding) is epidemic in anthroposophical circles, and has lamed
            the Society and Movement.  As we enter the tasks of the 21st Century,
            students of Steiner must return to the basics (the epistemologies), or
            knowledge of the "how" of heart-thinking will be lost.

            warm regards,
            joel






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          • Lee A.
            It is hard to respond to Joel s comments about Maurice s comments. On one hand there is a valid point being made, but sorry to say, the nature of the critique
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 17, 2005
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              It is hard to respond to Joel's comments about Maurice's comments. On one hand there is a valid point being made, but sorry to say, the nature of the critique  points to the a well known isolationism of AP from the rest of the world and other spiritual paths. The use of jargon and philosophically "correct" insider lingo throws a cold shower on a sincere and warm hearted post. The issue for me is not percepts and concepts but the ability to use everyday language to communicate the same idea. Obviously, Maurice was not implying he could clairvoyantly witness the departure of butterflies but a simple, statement like, "as described" "or told" or indicated by those who can see such things, would have cleared this up. Yet, many will also admit to a sensing of the higher beings working through the world and cosmos and take no shame in using one's imagination to envision what they may be engaged in. This practice tested of course against false egotiscal projections.
               
               
               What is not developed in this thread is the nature of "intuitive insight": the recognition of a metaphysical fact or truth as soul experience. Slight or willowy as these may be, they are signposts along the way.   This is a type of soul sensing and experiencing but it does remain unverifiable in either scientific or spiritual practice.  I think it is important to remember also that there are several "paths" of the spirit contained within AP and not all will harmonize with each other. Those dedicated to P of F may not find a Eurthymist comprehensible when speaking of sensing the etheric currents flowing through the hands, fingers and legs or the activation of the throat chakra in a performance or practice session. The same holds for someone who has taken on the path of pure practice and is "doing" the work of Knowledge of Higher Worlds with little attention to study or book study. Their insights may be more personal and substantial but not nearly as well rounded intellectually. This is the nature of individualized work and it behoves us to support each other on the path.
               
              Lee 

              Joel Wendt <hermit@...> wrote:
              Maurice McCarthy wrote:

              >I can only tell you what happened to  myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially due to gaining insight into the sacrifices these beings have made for us. Imagine sacrificing not only your eyes but just about all sensation for the sake of your children. The only thing the highest angels see of the Earth is the death of the butterflies as scintillations of light. From this meagre perception that have to interpret all they can as to what is happening here. All the joy of seeing their spiritual children grow they have sacrificed for our sake.
              >
              >Don't know where to point you to make a beginning but for some reason I keep thinking of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.

              >
              Dear Maurice,

                  I want to interject a note of caution here.  Unless you've done
              something of which you otherwise don't give evidence, you don't "know"
              that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack the relevant percept
              (experience).  You may have an "understanding" of such a thing based
              upon something Steiner said (his providing of a percept-less concept),
              but that "understanding" is entirely dependent upon the accuracy of
              Steiner's research and his ability to represent his "experience and
              knowledge" in language.

                  This distinction between "knowing" and "understanding" is crucial to
              appreciating what Anthroposophy actually is - that is, it is not the
              content of the reports of the spiritual scientist, but rather the methed
              (the how) - the path of cognition (heart-thinking) which gives birth to
              the modern clair-thinking never before possible in human evolution.

                  This confusion (about the difference between knowing and
              understanding) is epidemic in anthroposophical circles, and has lamed
              the Society and Movement.  As we enter the tasks of the 21st Century,
              students of Steiner must return to the basics (the epistemologies), or
              knowledge of the "how" of heart-thinking will be lost.

              warm regards,
              joel

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            • Joel Wendt
              Dear Adrian, You ask understandable questions. People do have points of view and opinions, for example - about such things as one persons character, or
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 17, 2005
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                Dear Adrian,

                    You ask understandable questions.

                    People do have "points of view" and opinions, for example - about such things as one persons character, or whether we should be in Iraq.  Many people have a certain kind of experienced based "knowledge", such as knowing how to do something in the sense that we have a skill like sewing or cooking or car repair.

                    Some people are more skilled than others at a certain task, and some people's points of view and opinions are based on greater life experience, study and so forth.  For example, there are a lot of folks saying various things about whether or not we can bring democracy to Iraq - everyone has a view.  Over a year ago I listened to a middle-East scholar (the guy was 80 and had been there and spoke many langauges and taught and wrote books for years) point out that their language doesn't even contain many of the terms and ideas which lived in Europe in the 17th and 18th Centuries, that were necessary for democracy to come into being.  In a sense he was saying the whole culture and language of Islam in the middle East does not stand on the same basis as did Europe when it emerged from the time of Kings and Queens to develop what later became Western Democracies.  He was wise and knowledgable and no one listened to him, with the result that we (who hope for democracy there) live in a kind of illusion.

                    Steiner faced an even deeper problem.  In the time of deepest scientific materialism, how do you bring new spiritual revelation to light?  Having been born in the 19th Century and educated in the philosophic matters of his time, he confronted serious questions that even today few anthroposophists understand.

                    The core one was: What is the truth about the inner nature of the human being, and the relationship of that nature to spiritual reality?

                    At the center of even this was the question of human freedom.  Are we free, or are we just creatures of pre-determined appetites and hungers?

                    His biography itself tells an important story, for while he came into an atavistic clairvoyance at age 8, as a young adult (18 to 22) he struggled with being able to justify, what he knew directly through experience, in the face of science, which he also revered. 

                    He took the great risk of subduing (eliminating) his atavistic clairvoyance and then took up the question of what appeared in his inner life, if he shined the light of the objective thinking of natural science on what appears to our introspection of ordinary mind.

                     Out of this study of the act of cognition he was to produce first "Truth and Knowledge".  In the process, he experienced his new (no longer atavistic) initiation via thinking over some Holy Nights by the time he became 22 (I don't know the exact year).  Following this he became involved with editing Goethe's scientific works, during which he revisited the problem of cognition once more and then wrote "A Theory of Knowledge Implicit in Goethe's World Conception", published by age 25.

                    Finally, at age 33, having had many years of inner experience using the new thinking clairvoyance, he once more revisited the problem and wrote The Philosophy of Freedom.

                    It is important to grasp that in none of these instances did he think to share his inner visions, but instead worked wholly with the problem of freedom as must be addressed in the age of science.  His thought was not really directed at spiritual realities at all, but rather at what he could share with other human beings about the essential questions living in us all.

                    A crucial point is to realize that he did not invent the new thinking clairvoyance, but discovered it.  It is Christ as Creator that has made this possible for us - made us such that we can find this freedom.

                    All the further work he was to produce rests upon the development of thinking and its understanding - what was essentially the result of the sacrificial devotion of his youth.  Of all his deeds, this one is the most remarkable.

                    Within the Anthroposophical Society, even while he was alive, people shied away from replicating this essential work.  It seemed too difficult, and within certain limits this is true.  He was left then with further questions, mostly having to do with what he should do given people's spiritual needs.  So he began to become a spiritual teacher, and even though he knew that only a few would truly follow where he had actually led, he had to offer what could be offered in the books and lectures to which so many are drawn.

                    Yet, and this is the gravest tragedy, for while many took up his indications and were able to begin to accomplish much, that greatest and most important thing they would frequently not even try - the seeking for true inner freedom - and this quest began to be lost in our circles even as a serious question.

                    Most anthroposophists today are believers, and do not find their way to inner freedom.  What they possess is more accurately called "Steinerism", not Anthroposophy.  Steinerism will not live into the future, nor will it answer the developing (or even today's) burning questions living in the human soul.  Understanding has no Life (as in "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life").  Only freedom leads to Life, and only this Life enables a human being to become truly creative in the present and into the future.

                    What is even more tragic, is that a myth of the difficulty of The Philosophy of Freedom has arisen, and it is common today in anthroposophical circles to be introduced to this book by someone who does not know it in practice or understand its real implications, and who at the same time encourages us to see The Philosophy as difficult because they have themselves failed to solve its riddles.

                    The fact is the book is not hard.  What is hard is the self honesty required to be adequately introspective.  This is the work from which we shy away.  In our souls the doubles are quite active, and they (at every turn) would convince us of the myth of difficulty.  They are able to do this because the pre-question to freedom is moral in nature, not intellectual.  So they (the doubles) tell us not to look too closely at our own inner activity, for then we might have to overcome some favorite bad habit.

                    It is the indulgence in these bad habits that deflects us.  And this fact is, of course, the first lesson on the path to true freedom.  We are prisoners inwardly, locked not only in the dilemmas of our bad habits, but also in our thought life (world view) if we become mere Steinerists - believers in Steiner-thought.  We become then (in accord with The Philosophy) "captured by the concept".

                    So that is the real question.  Not a matter of having to know the epistemologies, but whether we want freedom.  To seek freedom and thereby to discover the good, is to come to Life and to Christ.  It is actually more work to remain in prison, for the prison in this case is self created.

                    Oddly today it is those whose biographies have led them to the 12 Steps who are best prepared to take up The Philosophy.  On that path one confronts the soul with brutal self honesty, a much needed foundational work.  But that is a whole other story.

                warm regards,
                joel

                   

                   

                Adrian Hansen wrote:
                Dear Joel,
                 
                Do you mean to say that all experiences we have in life are worthless because we dont know or are not able to understand what epistemology is about?
                Didn't Steiner say that by reading about spiritual science we are preparing ourselves for the future ? Do you think we all have to become spiritual scientist to make the grade? I agree with you that to verify the things Steiner has said we have to follow a certain path, but do we want to verify everything Steiner has said?
                Kind Regards, Adrian

                Joel Wendt <hermit@...> wrote:
                Maurice McCarthy wrote:

                >I can only tell you what happened to  myself. Through studying basic works of Steiner a certain feeling for their reality gradually grew. This was especially due to gaining insight into the sacrifices these beings have made for us. Imagine sacrificing not only your eyes but just about all sensation for the sake of your children. The only thing the highest angels see of the Earth is the death of the butterflies as scintillations of light. From this meagre perception that have to interpret all they can as to what is happening here. All the joy of seeing their spiritual children grow they have sacrificed for our sake.
                >
                >Don't know where to point you to make a beginning but for some reason I keep thinking of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.

                >
                Dear Maurice,

                    I want to interject a note of caution here.  Unless you've done
                something of which you otherwise don't give evidence, you don't "know"
                that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack the relevant percept
                (experience).  You may have an "understanding" of such a thing based
                upon something Steiner said (his providing of a percept-less concept),
                but that "understanding" is entirely dependent upon the accuracy of
                Steiner's research and his ability to represent his "experience and
                knowledge" in language.

                    This distinction between "knowing" and "understanding" is crucial to
                appreciating what Anthroposophy actually is - that is, it is not the
                content of the reports of the spiritual scientist, but rather the methed
                (the how) - the path of cognition (heart-thinking) which gives birth to
                the modern clair-thinking never before possible in human evolution.

                    This confusion (about the difference between knowing and
                understanding) is epidemic in anthroposophical circles, and has lamed
                the Society and Movement.  As we enter the tasks of the 21st Century,
                students of Steiner must return to the basics (the epistemologies), or
                knowledge of the "how" of heart-thinking will be lost.

                warm regards,
                joel






                Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


              • Maurice McCarthy
                Thanks for that Joel. A case of my mind and my mouth not being engaged at the same time. It is an extremely damaging step to set yourself up as an authority in
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 18, 2005
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                  Thanks for that Joel. A case of my mind and my mouth not being engaged at the same time. It is an extremely damaging step to set yourself up as an authority in a company struggling to be free. That would defeat the purpose.

                  Joel is right I have no evidence.

                  Maurice


                  On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:01:55AM -0800 or thereabouts, Joel Wendt wrote:

                  > Dear Maurice,
                  >
                  > I want to interject a note of caution here. Unless you've done
                  > something of which you otherwise don't give evidence, you don't "know"
                  > that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack the relevant percept
                  > (experience). You may have an "understanding" of such a thing based
                  > upon something Steiner said (his providing of a percept-less concept),
                • Maurice McCarthy
                  Dear Lee You ve captured the spirit in which my remarks were intended and I take Joel s post as friendly correction from one philosophically minded striver to
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 18, 2005
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                    Dear Lee

                    You've captured the spirit in which my remarks were intended and I take Joel's post as friendly correction from one philosophically minded striver to another. The uplifting of your own spirit is on a wavering line of integrity where balance is sometimes very delicate so that care in thought, word and deed can make a great difference - both to yourself and others. At the end of the day it is the whole of mankind that we care for, as you yourself point out.

                    Intuition is 'just knowing, immediately' and how I wish my artistic capacities are greater. That they have developed at all, rather late in life, I owe to anthroposophy.

                    Best
                    Maurice

                    ==

                    On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 04:54:03PM -0800 or thereabouts, Lee A. wrote:
                    > It is hard to respond to Joel's comments about Maurice's comments. On one hand there is a valid point being made, but sorry to say, the nature of the critique points to the a well known isolationism of AP from the rest of the world and other spiritual paths. The use of jargon and philosophically "correct" insider lingo throws a cold shower on a sincere and warm hearted post. The issue for me is not percepts and concepts but the ability to use everyday language to communicate the same idea. Obviously, Maurice was not implying he could clairvoyantly witness the departure of butterflies but a simple, statement like, "as described" "or told" or indicated by those who can see such things, would have cleared this up. Yet, many will also admit to a sensing of the higher beings working through the world and cosmos and take no shame in using one's imagination to envision what they may be engaged in. This practice tested of course against false egotiscal projections.
                    >
                    >
                    > What is not developed in this thread is the nature of "intuitive insight": the recognition of a metaphysical fact or truth as soul experience. Slight or willowy as these may be, they are signposts along the way. This is a type of soul sensing and experiencing but it does remain unverifiable in either scientific or spiritual practice. I think it is important to remember also that there are several "paths" of the spirit contained within AP and not all will harmonize with each other. Those dedicated to P of F may not find a Eurthymist comprehensible when speaking of sensing the etheric currents flowing through the hands, fingers and legs or the activation of the throat chakra in a performance or practice session. The same holds for someone who has taken on the path of pure practice and is "doing" the work of Knowledge of Higher Worlds with little attention to study or book study. Their insights may be more personal and substantial but not nearly as well rounded intellectually.
                    > This is the nature of individualized work and it behoves us to support each other on the path.
                    >
                    > Lee
                    >
                  • iazul
                    Hi Maurice, I must say I am happy you answered my question just as you did! For starters it is much easier for me to understand something from a personal
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 19, 2005
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                      Hi Maurice,
                      I must say I am happy you answered my question just as
                      you did! For starters it is much easier for me to
                      understand something from a personal perspective. It
                      makes it more real.
                      Then your answer also caused Joel and many others to
                      jump in and write some very interesting messages! Yes
                      I'll pay heed to what Joel wrote too, I understand one
                      must be carefull. But Maurice I assure you your
                      message didn't cause me any harm - I got your general
                      idea. And I know it was well-meant!:)
                      Best wishes and thanks!
                      Iazul


                      --- Maurice McCarthy <moss@...> wrote:

                      > Thanks for that Joel. A case of my mind and my mouth
                      > not being engaged at the same time. It is an
                      > extremely damaging step to set yourself up as an
                      > authority in a company struggling to be free. That
                      > would defeat the purpose.
                      >
                      > Joel is right I have no evidence.
                      >
                      > Maurice
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 09:01:55AM -0800 or
                      > thereabouts, Joel Wendt wrote:
                      >
                      > > Dear Maurice,
                      > >
                      > > I want to interject a note of caution here.
                      > Unless you've done
                      > > something of which you otherwise don't give
                      > evidence, you don't "know"
                      > > that bit about the butterflies - that is you lack
                      > the relevant percept
                      > > (experience). You may have an "understanding" of
                      > such a thing based
                      > > upon something Steiner said (his providing of a
                      > percept-less concept),
                      >
                      >




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                    • iazul
                      Hi Chantel and all listmates Yes this is a great poem indeed!:)Thanks, Chantel! I am busy with the Christmas Season and unable to write as much as I would like
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 19, 2005
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                        Hi Chantel and all listmates
                        Yes this is a great poem indeed!:)Thanks, Chantel!
                        I am busy with the Christmas Season and unable to
                        write as much as I would like to, for all those
                        messages certainly brought to my mind several
                        questions. However those questions will have to wait a
                        while.
                        I want to go ahead and wish all here a wonderful
                        Christmas and Happy New Year for I will soon be
                        visiting family and unable to check messages.
                        Finally here's a Christmas wish: I wish the exchanges
                        in this list will continue to expand! There's a lot of
                        good people here whose knowledge and comments are very
                        appreciated. I hope this list will continue enabling
                        us to learn from each other and to carry forward the
                        Anthroposophical impulse.
                        Best wishes,
                        Iazul

                        --- Cheeseandsalsa@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > lazul,
                        > answering your faith question a little more. The
                        > Robert Frost poem comes to
                        > mind.
                        >
                        > The Road Not Taken
                        >
                        > Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
                        > And sorry I could not travel both
                        > And be one traveler, long I stood
                        > And looked down one as far as I could
                        > To where it bent in the undergrowth;
                        >
                        > Then took the other, as just as fair,
                        > And having perhaps the better claim,
                        > Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
                        > Though as for that the passing there
                        > Had worn them really about the same,
                        >
                        > And both that morning equally lay
                        > In leaves no step had trodden black.
                        > Oh, I kept the first for another day!
                        > Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
                        > I doubted if I should ever come back.
                        >
                        > I shall be telling this with a sigh
                        > Somewhere ages and ages hence:
                        > Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
                        > I took the one less traveled by,
                        > And that has made all the difference.
                        >
                        > -- Robert FrostThe Road Not Taken
                        >
                        > "And until you truly have
                        > This ""dying and becoming,""
                        > You are but a troubled guest
                        > Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                        Merry Christmas Iazul, I will be gone for two weeks as well over the season.. See you in the new year! ~Chantel And until you truly have This dying and
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 19, 2005
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                          AOL Email
                          Merry Christmas Iazul, I will be gone for two weeks as well over the season..  See you in the new year! ~Chantel
                           
                          "And until you truly have
                          This ""dying and becoming,""
                          You are but a troubled guest
                          Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
                        • Adrian Hansen
                          From the heavens so high You came A baby born in a stable,’ Jesus’ your name You changed the world like no one else before For many of us You have opened
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 19, 2005
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                            From the heavens so high You came
                            A baby born in a stable,’ Jesus’ your name
                             
                            You changed the world like no one else before
                            For many of us You have opened heaven’s door
                             
                            But people have been a bit slow to accept
                            Who You were, You are not just an adept
                             
                            Inside of You lived the Son of God
                            He died to advance us, believe it or not
                             
                            He gave to us the Earth, a place to belong
                            Until we are called back by the next gong
                             
                            To the heights where nothing seems real
                            Where we can prepare and make a new deal
                             
                            And come back to further improve our soul
                            To become eternal and one with the Whole
                             
                            So we celebrate Your Spirit on Christmas day
                            With acts of brotherhood widely on display
                             
                            People from all races come together
                            Singing songs and eat ham or whatever
                             
                            When the New Year sets in we forget

                            Why You came and with regret

                             
                            We carry on our daily lives mainly in peace
                            Materialistically, the life we live with ease
                             
                            Forgetting that You are there
                            In the etheric if you stare
                             
                            Wake up world to the new Force
                            He is there for you I can endorse
                             
                            So after Christmas remember
                            He will be there not just in December
                             
                            Merry Christmas. Adrian.
                             
                             


                            Cheeseandsalsa@... wrote:
                            Merry Christmas Iazul, I will be gone for two weeks as well over the season..  See you in the new year! ~Chantel
                             
                            "And until you truly have
                            This ""dying and becoming,""
                            You are but a troubled guest
                            Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe

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                          • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                            OH MY GOSh, that was soooooooooooo cool! Thanks for sending that out Adrian! It rocked! LOL And until you truly have This dying and becoming, You are
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 19, 2005
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                              AOL Email
                              OH MY GOSh, that was soooooooooooo cool! Thanks for sending that out Adrian!  It rocked!  LOL
                               
                              "And until you truly have
                              This ""dying and becoming,""
                              You are but a troubled guest
                              Roaming over the dark earth." ~Goethe
                            • Adrian Hansen
                              Dear Joel, Thank you for your reply, Joel wrote: The fact is the book is not hard. What is hard is the self honesty required to be adequately introspective.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 22, 2005
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                                  Dear Joel,
                                Thank you for your reply,
                                 
                                Joel wrote: The fact is the book is not hard.  What is hard is the self honesty required to be adequately introspective.  This is the work from which we shy away.  In our souls the doubles are quite active, and they (at every turn) would convince us of the myth of difficulty.  They are able to do this because the pre-question to freedom is moral in nature, not intellectual.  So they (the doubles) tell us not to look too closely at our own inner activity, for then we might have to overcome some favorite bad habit.
                                 
                                Do I understand it right that you are talking about multiple doubles? and if you do can you explain this phenomena?

                                 Joel wrote:   It is the indulgence in these bad habits that deflects us.  And this fact is, of course, the first lesson on the path to true freedom.  We are prisoners inwardly, locked not only in the dilemmas of our bad habits, but also in our thought life (world view) if we become mere Steinerists - believers in Steiner-thought.  We become then (in accord with The Philosophy) "captured by the concept".
                                You are talking about 'bad habits' as in what?
                                 
                                Do I understand you right that the path to freedom is to follow in Christ's footsteps ? What do you understand morality means ?
                                As I see it, we have certain experiences in life that teach us morality.If we miss out on those experiences or making shortcuts like for instance abstinance of things in life, are we then not following an artificially road to freedom?
                                Does freedom not mean having the freedom to experience? Sorry for all the questions Joel, but I think that we need to be clear on those things before we can embark on a road to freedom.
                                Merry Christmas to you, Love Adrian


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                              • Joel Wendt
                                Dear Adrian, I have written some comments below in [brackets]. warm regards, joel ... [Yes, there are actually three elements to the double-complex. Steiner
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 24, 2005
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                                  Dear Adrian,

                                  I have written some comments below in [brackets].

                                  warm regards,
                                  joel

                                  Adrian Hansen wrote:

                                  > Dear Joel,
                                  > Thank you for your reply,
                                  >
                                  > Joel wrote: The fact is the book is not hard. What is hard is the
                                  > self honesty required to be adequately introspective. This is the
                                  > work from which we shy away. In our souls the doubles are quite
                                  > active, and they (at every turn) would convince us of the myth of
                                  > difficulty. They are able to do this because the pre-question to
                                  > freedom is moral in nature, not intellectual. So they (the doubles)
                                  > tell us not to look too closely at our own inner activity, for then we
                                  > might have to overcome some favorite bad habit.
                                  >
                                  > Do I understand it right that you are talking about multiple doubles?
                                  > and if you do can you explain this phenomena?

                                  [Yes, there are actually three elements to the double-complex. Steiner
                                  speaks of two in his lectures on Geographic Medicine, although he says
                                  very little. In the First Class lessons he speaks of three. Tomberg's
                                  book, Inner Development, writes of a luciferic double, an ahrimanic
                                  double and a human double. Introspection also reveals three
                                  "tendencies", with the luciferic and ahrimanic somewhat easily
                                  identifiable, while the human double really needs to be made more
                                  complex for it involves the creation in the soul, by our actions, of
                                  "egregores".

                                  An egregore is a human generated psychic parasite, that arises as a kind
                                  of independent entity in the Soul, through our repeated (almost Rite
                                  like) giving into certain temptations or other impulses at the prompting
                                  of the other two doubles. This is where true evil comes into the social
                                  world, and behind which activity lives the beings Steiner describes as
                                  the Asuras. A common egregore is found in addictions and alcoholism
                                  ("the monkey on my back", or "my disease" is the way it is spoken of).
                                  The most potent way of dealing with egregores is in fact in the 12
                                  Steps, which was fostered by the Return of Christ in the Etheric (for
                                  details, read my book, the Way of the Fool)]

                                  >
                                  > Joel wrote: It is the indulgence in these bad habits that deflects
                                  > us. And this fact is, of course, the first lesson on the path to true
                                  > freedom. We are prisoners inwardly, locked not only in the dilemmas
                                  > of our bad habits, but also in our thought life (world view) if we
                                  > become mere Steinerists - believers in Steiner-thought. We become
                                  > then (in accord with The Philosophy) "captured by the concept".
                                  > You are talking about 'bad habits' as in what?

                                  [see above, if you still have questions, then ask them.]

                                  >
                                  > Do I understand you right that the path to freedom is to follow in
                                  > Christ's footsteps ? What do you understand morality means ?

                                  [This is the essence of our development in the Age of the Consciousness
                                  Soul - free moral deeds]

                                  > As I see it, we have certain experiences in life that teach us
                                  > morality.If we miss out on those experiences or making shortcuts like
                                  > for instance abstinance of things in life, are we then not following
                                  > an artificially road to freedom?

                                  [True free morality is brought out in the Soul when it asks itself what
                                  is the Good and begins to trust that intuition in all its moral actions
                                  ("In self trust all virtues are comprehended" Emerson).]

                                  > Does freedom not mean having the freedom to experience? Sorry for all
                                  > the questions Joel, but I think that we need to be clear on those
                                  > things before we can embark on a road to freedom.

                                  [If I understand your question rightly, it certainly is the case that
                                  the Biography is a Divinely authored womb for our development. So we
                                  must be free to make choices there, which then have consequences that
                                  teach (if we are awake enough). But the freedom I am speaking of is
                                  deeper, for with the coming of the Time of the Ahrimanic Deception (what
                                  in the East was called the Kala Yuga), our original form of
                                  consciousness, in which the inner world was full of light and the outer
                                  world dim and dark, has become replaced with its opposite - the outer
                                  world is full of light and the inner world is dark. This inner darkness
                                  is a sign of our lack of inner freedom - it is our spiritual prison (the
                                  Ahrimanic Deception). But only we can overcome this darkness, most
                                  especially more our moral actions. For details, see my essay American
                                  Anthroposophy. All my work can be found here:
                                  http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/fullindex.html.%5d
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