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Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

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  • Hogie McM
    Lee: I will respond shortly. I have a meeting with the video game company contracted with the LEFT BEWHIND book series. Thanks for writing back. Hogie ...
    Message 1 of 9 , May 11, 2005
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      Lee:
      I will respond shortly.
      I have a meeting with the video game company contracted with the LEFT BEWHIND book series.
       
      Thanks for writing back.
      Hogie
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Lee A.
      Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

      Hogie,
       
      Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
      I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
       
      Lee

      Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
      Lee:
      Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
       
      perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
       
      Best,
      Hogie
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Lee A.
      Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

      Joel,
       
      Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
       
      Lee

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    • Hogie McM
      Hello Lee: Your response has many layers to it. I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS
      Message 2 of 9 , May 18, 2005
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        Hello Lee:
        Your response has many layers to it.  I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS IN MAN'S ASTRAL BODY (Zurich, 9th October, 1918) and also THE DEED OF CHRIST (22ND Marxch, 1909)......divine intervention is a process not entirely forsaken for man, but admittedly, not the right process currently intended for man in this phase of human evolution, the epoch of The Consciousness Soul.  I see true Christianity illuminated, not replacing, all religious activity.  The power of Christianity is the important thing, I feel, which is a purifying, cleansing spiritual fire.  All other religions are based on teachings of an incarnate person who has lived on the earth.  The important teachings of Christ were given by The Risen Christ. The importance to me of Christ, as the only Divine Being ever to experience death, is the Power that he left humanity as a seed, which will slowly unfold for humanity...if mankind does not strive and gain access to this power accessed in the Etheric realm(with the help of the Spirit of the redeemed Lucifer), well then , yes, mankind will have lost an opportunity, but will not have lost all, so to speak.  I do not think the all-important thing is necessarily to witness the Christ per se in his current being (resurrrected form in the Etheric realm), but to strive to add to one's access spiritual reality in addition to our observation of nature and the sense world.  There will be other crucifixion's of the Christ, and resurrected forms, his astral body and Ego-body, and they, too, will have their own unique properties which mankind will need for his rightful, prescribed evolution to return to the GodHead in freedom and clear individual consciousness.  As in the past, even a few individual personalities who achieve these lofty goals may be enough to stem the tide of the opposing forces.  World Pentecost is an achievable goal.  I believe in all of our subsequent individual incarnations, each man will have ample opportunities to nourish the hunger to find access into the reality of the Spiritual World, through the power left us by the Christ impulse in each one of our souls, in the Earth Being itself, in the Pentecostal Spirit waiting for us to strive to meet him through inner depth of striving.  There will come a time, in a far, far distant future, an actual definite point, when each man/woman will have a choice to stay with the pleasures of the dying Earth, or move onwards in a Humanity Transformed back into the Spiritual realm, from which he originated.  Mankind's destiny is not always to be with the Earth.  But each man/woman will not be forced to move on. And by this time of this momentous event, way past the War of all Against All, religions as we know them will not exist on the Earth, at least for some.  Religions only exist where there is no direct contact or experience with the Divine reality.
         
        I do not know if this helped any, or if much of it made much sense, but it is just a first 'crack' at responding back to your thougths.
         
        Best,
        Hogie
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Lee A.
        Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

        Hogie,
         
        Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
        I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
         
        Lee

        Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
        Lee:
        Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
         
        perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
         
        Best,
        Hogie
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Lee A.
        Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

        Joel,
         
        Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
         
        Lee

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      • Lee A.
        This was extremely clear, to the point and heartfelt. I basically accept the fundamentals you outline but we may not be privy to the inner workings of how all
        Message 3 of 9 , May 18, 2005
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          This was extremely clear, to the point and heartfelt. I basically accept the fundamentals you outline but we may not be privy to the inner workings of how all this will be accomplished and it may not be that important for our consciousness at present. Being true the spirit of Socrates and Buddha- test all things- I was only questioning (as with any claim or assertion coming from a spiritual source) the time frame and possibility of the majority of humanity coming to know Christ before things get out of hand and the time is near. I am sure the ways and means are being worked on. Some insight on can be gleaned from the re-issue of Howard Storm's book on his near death experience called My Descent into Death. He was an atheist and had a near death experience in 1985 where he met with Christ and angelics and asked many practical questions about life on earth. His initially was brought to a hell like world which was harrowing and savage. In his redeemed condition, he asked Jesus which is the highest or best religion on earth. The answer from Christ, Love God and our fellow man- that his the most important thing we can do. This is very inspirational book. By the way, he became a minister shortly afterwards.
           
          Thanks for your time on this.  
           
          Lee

          Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
          Hello Lee:
          Your response has many layers to it.  I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS IN MAN'S ASTRAL BODY (Zurich, 9th October, 1918) and also THE DEED OF CHRIST (22ND Marxch, 1909)......divine intervention is a process not entirely forsaken for man, but admittedly, not the right process currently intended for man in this phase of human evolution, the epoch of The Consciousness Soul.  I see true Christianity illuminated, not replacing, all religious activity.  The power of Christianity is the important thing, I feel, which is a purifying, cleansing spiritual fire.  All other religions are based on teachings of an incarnate person who has lived on the earth.  The important teachings of Christ were given by The Risen Christ. The importance to me of Christ, as the only Divine Being ever to experience death, is the Power that he left humanity as a seed, which will slowly unfold for humanity...if mankind does not strive and gain access to this power accessed in the Etheric realm(with the help of the Spirit of the redeemed Lucifer), well then , yes, mankind will have lost an opportunity, but will not have lost all, so to speak.  I do not think the all-important thing is necessarily to witness the Christ per se in his current being (resurrected form in the Etheric realm), but to strive to add to one's access spiritual reality in addition to our observation of nature and the sense world.  There will be other crucifixion's of the Christ, and resurrected forms, his astral body and Ego-body, and they, too, will have their own unique properties which mankind will need for his rightful, prescribed evolution to return to the GodHead in freedom and clear individual consciousness.  As in the past, even a few individual personalities who achieve these lofty goals may be enough to stem the tide of the opposing forces.  World Pentecost is an achievable goal.  I believe in all of our subsequent individual incarnations, each man will have ample opportunities to nourish the hunger to find access into the reality of the Spiritual World, through the power left us by the Christ impulse in each one of our souls, in the Earth Being itself, in the Pentecostal Spirit waiting for us to strive to meet him through inner depth of striving.  There will come a time, in a far, far distant future, an actual definite point, when each man/woman will have a choice to stay with the pleasures of the dying Earth, or move onwards in a Humanity Transformed back into the Spiritual realm, from which he originated.  Mankind's destiny is not always to be with the Earth.  But each man/woman will not be forced to move on. And by this time of this momentous event, way past the War of all Against All, religions as we know them will not exist on the Earth, at least for some.  Religions only exist where there is no direct contact or experience with the Divine reality.
           
          I do not know if this helped any, or if much of it made much sense, but it is just a first 'crack' at responding back to your thoughts.
           
          Best,
          Hogie
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Lee A.
          Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

          Hogie,
           
          Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
          I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
           
          Lee

          Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
          Lee:
          Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
           
          perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
           
          Best,
          Hogie
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Lee A.
          Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

          Joel,
           
          Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
           
          Lee

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