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Experimental Online "Live" audio study group

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  • Tom
    I would like to invite any pioneers out their who would like to be part of a Live audio online study group. You will be able to Hear, Speak, and SEE Slides
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 6, 2005
      I would like to invite any pioneers out their who would like to be
      part of a "Live" audio online study group. You will be able to Hear,
      Speak, and SEE Slides on your home computer as part of a study
      group. I am looking for some people interested in participating so
      we can work the bugs out before promoting the broadcast to larger
      participation. At that point anyone could participate just by going
      to a web site. Their will be no charge. If you are interested go to
      http://rsteiner.meetup.com/1/ and sign up.


      Experimental Study Group April 2005

      You are invited to be part of an experimental study group whose
      purpose is to share the teachings of Rudolf Steiner with the world.
      The unique character of this group is that the discussion will occur
      online with a "live" AUDIO broadcast heard through out the
      world viathe world wide web. If you have a computer with access to
      the internet you will be able to LISTEN, SPEAK, and SEE a slide
      presentation from your own home along with any other participant on
      the planet. Before the conceptis expanded we want to work the bugs
      out with a small group and their friends around the world. This is a
      beginners study group so no experience is necessary. Computer
      technical advise if needed, topic study materials, and group
      contemplation material will be provided. The theme of the study is:

      The Philosophy Of Freedom in the light of Human And Cosmic Thought

      The Cosmic outline of the "Philosophy Of Freedom" as revealed
      in Steiner's "Human And Cosmic Thought" will be presented
      in the study materials.

      The number of participants will be limited starting out so sign up
      soon. After signing up you will be sent study materials and prepared
      to enter the broadcast. For further information and to sign up
      online go to: http://rsteiner.meetup.com/1/

      Technical information is available at: http://www.voxwire.com/

      Contact Tom: fairoakspof@...
    • Lee A.
      My wife and I were discussing the nature of Christianity and its institutions after watching the intense media focus on the death of the Pope and the increase
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 27, 2005

        My wife and I were discussing the nature of Christianity and its institutions after watching the intense media focus on the death of the Pope and the increase in Christian oriented programming on TV.

        There was an interesting show on Larry King recently on God and the Nature of Good And Evil. He invited a priest, a well known tele-pastor, Deepak Chopra, Char Margolis (intuitive and communicator with the dead) and a former FBI profiler who is now in religious training to become a minister. Quite a panel!  A central agrumentative point was the insistence again that Chris Jesust is the Only Way to redemption and salvation and all other paths to God are basically off track and will not allow one to be "saved". This somewhat naive and dogmatic perspective was challenged very well by Chopra but led to another issue found in esoteric Christianity. For example,  RS purports that knowledge and direct connection with true the Christ Being is essentail for each human being and for the future of the earth. The work in the next 3000 years or so is to make freely available a choice to approach and receive the Christ Spirit during life on earth.  So in a sense, no Bieng is "higher" and  more important spirituality, accorrding to AP and esoteric Christianity. Yet, it seems inconceivable that 5 billion people in this time span or in 11,000  years will be willing or wanting to accept Christ in a conventional or mystical sense. If this is the case, what will this imply for the future of humanity and earth? ( In fact, one must wonder what born again Christians are actually in contact with given the dogmatism and prejudices  so apparent in many of them. ) 

        Another issue that we discussed was the nature of spritual enlightenment As most are aware, "Enlightenment" and/or  God Realization is  Hindu or Buddhist term to indicate a certain state of realization and direct experience with the nature of God (ParaBrahma-Hindu) or Reality (Buddhist) This " state", sometimes called God Consciousness or Consciousness of oneself in God is clearly above Imagination and Inspiration as described by RS. Since familar cosmic conditions and the nature of God in Creation are described, it is unlikely that these experiences are illusionary or delusional. In addition the benefit achieved by those in contact with these teachers is positive and life changing.  In short, there exist or have existed individuals outside of Christianity who have experienced transcendental states of realtiy and have "seen" and "know God", so to speak. They speak of a unitary state of Being which contains all Beings and Creation and often describe the nature Creation itself in a primordial state of Becoming.  The nature of the their descriptioins are farily uniform yet rarely if ever is the Christ spoken of directly, and if so, He is seen as another past  Avataric Being or Master.

         If entry into the the realms of Life Spirit or higher devachan are indeed achieved by some,  why is the Christ Being not seen and encountered as a special Being. Truth be told, there seems to be only two or three sources-mystical and esoteric, that describe the nature of Christ and his Mission.

        Why so little consistency among seers and mystics across borders?

        Lee  


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      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Lee, As to question one, regarding need to connect to Christ even in so-called esoteric Christianity ... We are in the Epoch of the Consciousness Soul.
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 29, 2005
          Dear Lee,

          As to question one, regarding need to connect to Christ even in
          so-called "esoteric Christianity"...

          We are in the Epoch of the Consciousness Soul. The first phase of this
          development involves the individual i-AM coming to terms with its own
          moral freedom. Not everyone will do this, but many will do this without
          even knowing exactly what this "ultimately" means. People will think: I
          am faced with a moral question, and I believe I am called to answer this
          question myself, and then they will answer, and it will be a hard answer
          (a way they know it is a true answer) in that to be moral they know
          requires risk and sacrifice. We can call this "coming to knowledge of
          the Good".

          The second phase of development of the Consciousness Soul is built up
          out of the first, and involves "coming to knowledge of the true".
          People, who are working in groups struggling to come to a shared
          knowledge of the true (something a community needs in order not to be at
          war within itself), will discover that there is a moral act that is
          necessarily precedent, which is to sacrifice one's own point of view.
          We sacrifice our personal opinion to work with the "group" and discover
          in practice that in this way the group does come to "knowledge of the
          true".

          This knowledge of the Good and the True is an experience by the soul of
          the Eternal, and simultaneously of the Being of Christ. So to seek the
          Good and the True is to seek Christ, and the Being of Christ cares not
          whether we know His Name, but only that we seek the Good and the True.

          So we come to Christ by seeking the likeness in the Eternal to
          something within ourselves, the impulse to know the Good and the True.
          This is, of course, totally different from being "saved".

          The question for the individual is what choice do I make and what are
          the consequences. The biography can lead us to the choices, but we have
          to face them.

          As to your second question, regarding "enlightenment" and why do
          Eastern aspirants who seem to achieve their goal not speak of Christ.
          In Meditations on the Tarot: a journey into Christian Hermeticism, the
          author describes how it is that being seeking integration with Being
          (ego-less-ness) does not achieve the meeting with the Creator Being,
          because to abandon ego is to abandon the ability to love. Love requires
          a Lover, the Beloved and the Love that is between them, and is thus a
          meeting of essence with Essence, whereas ego-less-ness is the giving
          away of essence. Without essence (our own i-AM) we cannot meet Essence,
          the true I-AM.

          I hope this has been a least a little help. If I have not understood
          the questions, let me know, and if I have anything else to offer, I will
          try.

          warm regards,
          joel

          On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 15:03, Lee A. wrote:
          > My wife and I were discussing the nature of Christianity and
          > its institutions after watching the intense media focus on the
          > death of the Pope and the increase in Christian oriented
          > programming on TV.
          >
          > There was an interesting show on Larry King recently on God
          > and the Nature of Good And Evil. He invited a priest, a well
          > known tele-pastor, Deepak Chopra, Char Margolis (intuitive and
          > communicator with the dead) and a former FBI profiler who is
          > now in religious training to become a minister. Quite a
          > panel! A central agrumentative point was the insistence again
          > that Chris Jesust is the Only Way to redemption and
          > salvation and all other paths to God are basically off track
          > and will not allow one to be "saved". This somewhat naive and
          > dogmatic perspective was challenged very well by Chopra but
          > led to another issue found in esoteric Christianity. For
          > example, RS purports that knowledge and direct connection
          > with true the Christ Being is essentail for each human being
          > and for the future of the earth. The work in the next 3000
          > years or so is to make freely available a choice to approach
          > and receive the Christ Spirit during life on earth. So in a
          > sense, no Bieng is "higher" and more important spirituality,
          > accorrding to AP and esoteric Christianity. Yet, it seems
          > inconceivable that 5 billion people in this time span or in
          > 11,000 years will be willing or wanting to accept Christ in a
          > conventional or mystical sense. If this is the case, what will
          > this imply for the future of humanity and earth? ( In
          > fact, one must wonder what born again Christians are actually
          > in contact with given the dogmatism and prejudices so
          > apparent in many of them. )
          >
          > Another issue that we discussed was the nature of
          > spritual enlightenment As most are aware,
          > "Enlightenment" and/or God Realization is Hindu or Buddhist
          > term to indicate a certain state of realization and direct
          > experience with the nature of God (ParaBrahma-Hindu) or
          > Reality (Buddhist) This " state", sometimes called God
          > Consciousness or Consciousness of oneself in God is clearly
          > above Imagination and Inspiration as described by RS. Since
          > familar cosmic conditions and the nature of God in
          > Creation are described, it is unlikely that these experiences
          > are illusionary or delusional. In addition the benefit
          > achieved by those in contact with these teachers is positive
          > and life changing. In short, there exist or have existed
          > individuals outside of Christianity who have experienced
          > transcendental states of realtiy and have "seen" and
          > "know God", so to speak. They speak of a unitary state of
          > Being which contains all Beings and Creation and often
          > describe the nature Creation itself in a primordial state of
          > Becoming. The nature of the their descriptioins are farily
          > uniform yet rarely if ever is the Christ spoken of directly,
          > and if so, He is seen as another past Avataric Being
          > or Master.
          >
          > If entry into the the realms of Life Spirit or higher
          > devachan are indeed achieved by some, why is the Christ Being
          > not seen and encountered as a special Being. Truth be told,
          > there seems to be only two or three sources-mystical and
          > esoteric, that describe the nature of Christ and his Mission.
          >
          > Why so little consistency among seers and mystics across
          > borders?
          >
          > Lee
          >
          >
          >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
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          >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
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        • Lee A.
          Joel, Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 29, 2005
            Joel,
             
            Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
             
            Lee

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          • Hogie McM
            Lee: Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of
            Message 5 of 9 , May 2, 2005
              Lee:
              Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
               
              perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
               
              Best,
              Hogie
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Lee A.
              Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

              Joel,
               
              Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
               
              Lee

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            • Lee A.
              Hogie, Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it.
              Message 6 of 9 , May 10, 2005
                Hogie,
                 
                Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
                I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
                 
                Lee

                Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
                Lee:
                Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
                 
                perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
                 
                Best,
                Hogie
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Lee A.
                Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                Joel,
                 
                Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
                 
                Lee

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              • Hogie McM
                Lee: I will respond shortly. I have a meeting with the video game company contracted with the LEFT BEWHIND book series. Thanks for writing back. Hogie ...
                Message 7 of 9 , May 11, 2005
                  Lee:
                  I will respond shortly.
                  I have a meeting with the video game company contracted with the LEFT BEWHIND book series.
                   
                  Thanks for writing back.
                  Hogie
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lee A.
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                  Hogie,
                   
                  Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
                  I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
                   
                  Lee

                  Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
                  Lee:
                  Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
                   
                  perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
                   
                  Best,
                  Hogie
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lee A.
                  Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                  Joel,
                   
                  Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
                   
                  Lee

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                • Hogie McM
                  Hello Lee: Your response has many layers to it. I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 18, 2005
                    Hello Lee:
                    Your response has many layers to it.  I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS IN MAN'S ASTRAL BODY (Zurich, 9th October, 1918) and also THE DEED OF CHRIST (22ND Marxch, 1909)......divine intervention is a process not entirely forsaken for man, but admittedly, not the right process currently intended for man in this phase of human evolution, the epoch of The Consciousness Soul.  I see true Christianity illuminated, not replacing, all religious activity.  The power of Christianity is the important thing, I feel, which is a purifying, cleansing spiritual fire.  All other religions are based on teachings of an incarnate person who has lived on the earth.  The important teachings of Christ were given by The Risen Christ. The importance to me of Christ, as the only Divine Being ever to experience death, is the Power that he left humanity as a seed, which will slowly unfold for humanity...if mankind does not strive and gain access to this power accessed in the Etheric realm(with the help of the Spirit of the redeemed Lucifer), well then , yes, mankind will have lost an opportunity, but will not have lost all, so to speak.  I do not think the all-important thing is necessarily to witness the Christ per se in his current being (resurrrected form in the Etheric realm), but to strive to add to one's access spiritual reality in addition to our observation of nature and the sense world.  There will be other crucifixion's of the Christ, and resurrected forms, his astral body and Ego-body, and they, too, will have their own unique properties which mankind will need for his rightful, prescribed evolution to return to the GodHead in freedom and clear individual consciousness.  As in the past, even a few individual personalities who achieve these lofty goals may be enough to stem the tide of the opposing forces.  World Pentecost is an achievable goal.  I believe in all of our subsequent individual incarnations, each man will have ample opportunities to nourish the hunger to find access into the reality of the Spiritual World, through the power left us by the Christ impulse in each one of our souls, in the Earth Being itself, in the Pentecostal Spirit waiting for us to strive to meet him through inner depth of striving.  There will come a time, in a far, far distant future, an actual definite point, when each man/woman will have a choice to stay with the pleasures of the dying Earth, or move onwards in a Humanity Transformed back into the Spiritual realm, from which he originated.  Mankind's destiny is not always to be with the Earth.  But each man/woman will not be forced to move on. And by this time of this momentous event, way past the War of all Against All, religions as we know them will not exist on the Earth, at least for some.  Religions only exist where there is no direct contact or experience with the Divine reality.
                     
                    I do not know if this helped any, or if much of it made much sense, but it is just a first 'crack' at responding back to your thougths.
                     
                    Best,
                    Hogie
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Lee A.
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                    Hogie,
                     
                    Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
                    I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
                     
                    Lee

                    Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
                    Lee:
                    Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
                     
                    perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
                     
                    Best,
                    Hogie
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Lee A.
                    Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                    Joel,
                     
                    Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
                     
                    Lee

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                  • Lee A.
                    This was extremely clear, to the point and heartfelt. I basically accept the fundamentals you outline but we may not be privy to the inner workings of how all
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 18, 2005
                      This was extremely clear, to the point and heartfelt. I basically accept the fundamentals you outline but we may not be privy to the inner workings of how all this will be accomplished and it may not be that important for our consciousness at present. Being true the spirit of Socrates and Buddha- test all things- I was only questioning (as with any claim or assertion coming from a spiritual source) the time frame and possibility of the majority of humanity coming to know Christ before things get out of hand and the time is near. I am sure the ways and means are being worked on. Some insight on can be gleaned from the re-issue of Howard Storm's book on his near death experience called My Descent into Death. He was an atheist and had a near death experience in 1985 where he met with Christ and angelics and asked many practical questions about life on earth. His initially was brought to a hell like world which was harrowing and savage. In his redeemed condition, he asked Jesus which is the highest or best religion on earth. The answer from Christ, Love God and our fellow man- that his the most important thing we can do. This is very inspirational book. By the way, he became a minister shortly afterwards.
                       
                      Thanks for your time on this.  
                       
                      Lee

                      Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
                      Hello Lee:
                      Your response has many layers to it.  I can only relay my personal takes.....I would encourage, first off, to find a copy of THE WORK OF THE ANGELS IN MAN'S ASTRAL BODY (Zurich, 9th October, 1918) and also THE DEED OF CHRIST (22ND Marxch, 1909)......divine intervention is a process not entirely forsaken for man, but admittedly, not the right process currently intended for man in this phase of human evolution, the epoch of The Consciousness Soul.  I see true Christianity illuminated, not replacing, all religious activity.  The power of Christianity is the important thing, I feel, which is a purifying, cleansing spiritual fire.  All other religions are based on teachings of an incarnate person who has lived on the earth.  The important teachings of Christ were given by The Risen Christ. The importance to me of Christ, as the only Divine Being ever to experience death, is the Power that he left humanity as a seed, which will slowly unfold for humanity...if mankind does not strive and gain access to this power accessed in the Etheric realm(with the help of the Spirit of the redeemed Lucifer), well then , yes, mankind will have lost an opportunity, but will not have lost all, so to speak.  I do not think the all-important thing is necessarily to witness the Christ per se in his current being (resurrected form in the Etheric realm), but to strive to add to one's access spiritual reality in addition to our observation of nature and the sense world.  There will be other crucifixion's of the Christ, and resurrected forms, his astral body and Ego-body, and they, too, will have their own unique properties which mankind will need for his rightful, prescribed evolution to return to the GodHead in freedom and clear individual consciousness.  As in the past, even a few individual personalities who achieve these lofty goals may be enough to stem the tide of the opposing forces.  World Pentecost is an achievable goal.  I believe in all of our subsequent individual incarnations, each man will have ample opportunities to nourish the hunger to find access into the reality of the Spiritual World, through the power left us by the Christ impulse in each one of our souls, in the Earth Being itself, in the Pentecostal Spirit waiting for us to strive to meet him through inner depth of striving.  There will come a time, in a far, far distant future, an actual definite point, when each man/woman will have a choice to stay with the pleasures of the dying Earth, or move onwards in a Humanity Transformed back into the Spiritual realm, from which he originated.  Mankind's destiny is not always to be with the Earth.  But each man/woman will not be forced to move on. And by this time of this momentous event, way past the War of all Against All, religions as we know them will not exist on the Earth, at least for some.  Religions only exist where there is no direct contact or experience with the Divine reality.
                       
                      I do not know if this helped any, or if much of it made much sense, but it is just a first 'crack' at responding back to your thoughts.
                       
                      Best,
                      Hogie
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Lee A.
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                      Hogie,
                       
                      Good response. I understand the concepts and possible actual changes in humanity implied in your comments- but there is a slight problem, as I see it. Just because a soul change will occur in the relationship between the etheric and physical bodies, this does not mean that one will be directed inwardly to witness the Christ and encounter the Christ Mysteries. Even in the days of the apostles, there were many among the 120 plus intimates followers who lived and walked with Christ Jesus yet lost their faith and feeling for his Divinity when he "died" on the cross. He the Holy Spirit had to rain down upon them to fully awaken them. The example of Thomas and having to examine the wounds is another example of being closed down.  Many near death experiencers entering the spirit lands do not always meet the Christ naturally or at all. Why would a strong devotee of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism suddenly turn their attention to the Christ and understand His Mission and work? We don't suddenly change at death or in psychic breakthroughs. Its seems that we are basically the same person who then goes through a gradual transformation in the after death process based on a inner change of attitude and perception. Without these fundamental changes we are blind to the Beings and events of the Spiritual realms as I understand it.
                      I am not being cynical here but only questioning grand claims or assertions that do not seem possible without extreme divine intervention (which would defeat the goal after all).
                       
                      Lee

                      Hogie McM <hogie@...> wrote:
                      Lee:
                      Regarding your question as to the inconceivability-- in the next 3000 years (actually RS said 2500 years from 1933,the advent of the Second Coming of Christ, which brings one to the exact middle of the next Michaelic Cosmopolitan Epoch, 4433 A.D. to experience Christ in the Etheric) or even 11,000 years out-- that 5 or 6 billion people will be willing or even be aware of a choice in wanting to accept or come to direct spiritual realization of the Risen Christ (the challenge that Paul left us with, recapitulating the experience that Paul had at Damascus, but now through our own efforts, not inoculated inititation)--
                       
                      perhaps the path of thinking that leads to the following may be of assistance: as in days at the beginning of the first epochs in the Post-Atlantean Epoch-- Indian, Persian, Egypto-Chaldean-- when the etheric body of man was more clearly seperated from the conjoiture of the physical body (especially in the head region)-- so in the future, well within the timelines given above, will -- as a natural course of human evolution, an objective occurrence/process-- the etheric body of man slowly begin to seperate out from the physical body again...this will enable the astral body to imprint itself onto the etheric body (without the influence of the physical sense), and thus cause natural experience for man in his etheric nature of the radiation from the Spiritland, (which he will be able to carry back with him in memory)which will include a direct experience of the Christ Being, probably in the form of the Replicas of the Etheric and Astral, and 'I' Bodies of the Christ Being, as we know the Sacrifices of the Christ being continues throughout Earth Evolution.
                       
                      Best,
                      Hogie
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Lee A.
                      Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:07 PM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy]Knowledge of Christ

                      Joel,
                       
                      Your response does illuninate the questions quite well and especially concerning the development of ego conscousness and meeting with the Cosmic Ego or I. I am still concerned with the slow progress of religion (its seems to be regressing rather than progressing throughout the world). And I understand the Platonic aspect of your first response yet still am certain that RS was clear that it was not just the Christ like qualities of the soul that are important in this age of consciousness soul but also the realization of the Christ Being as It is. In a sense it like denying the sun but acknowledging the warmth and light of the sun. And this is meant to be done while in incarnation and not necessarily after death as I understand it.. Freedom is a tantalizing and complex experiment.
                       
                      Lee

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