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American horrors--[anthroposophy]Cooking food the Nazis way...

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  • elaine upton
    Hello all, Interesting how we (or we ) return over and over to the Nazis and their horrors, as though these horrors mesmerize. As for the microwave, John and
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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      Hello all,

      Interesting how we (or "we") return over and over to the Nazis and their
      horrors, as though these horrors mesmerize. As for the microwave, John and
      Danny, and its harmful or not harmful effects, I will stay out of that
      discussion for now. What interests me here is the return over and over to
      the topic of the Nazis....(I and others, many others, anthroposophists and
      many others) do this. The HOLOCAUST MUSEUM in Washington, D.C., for example,
      is, i have heard, usually very busy with hundreds and hundreds of visitors.

      Now, what is interesting to me about this phenomenon of interest in,
      sometimes even obssession with, the Nazis is that we have perpetrators of
      horrors right in our backyards and at our front doors (at least here in the
      U.S.A., and in some other places where i have lived --South Africa, for
      example). How often do we report on or give examples from or visit a
      "holocaust museum" about the horrors committed by U.S. Presidents and
      Generals, etc. against the American Indian (native American)? How often do
      we look at what happened in the transatlantic slave trade (the so called
      Middle Passage), in which the U.S., Britian and other so-called civilized
      nations participated for centuries (i mean, centuries!). These are things
      right in our back yard and at our front doors.

      I live near Lynchburg, Virginia, U.S.A., the town named for John Lynch,
      whose name calls us the whole horror of lynching (lynching mostly of black
      men during and after slavery, but also of white abolitionists and others).

      I would bet some of you, among those in the U.S., live near or around a
      black neighborhood that is located near a noisy railroad, a toxic industrial
      site, or that is filled with run down housing, poor plumbing, etc.--These
      are horrors, in my book.

      The massacre at Wounded Knee, South Dakota is a horror, in my book.

      The Trail of Tears is a horror, in my book.

      The brutal beating and rape of African slaves is a horror, in my book.

      It will be a day of progress, in my view, when people in the U.S. at least,
      look at the horrors right here at home.

      Blessings,
      elaine



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    • John Massengale
      ... Of course we both look at and ignore the brutal horrors right here at home -- we re human. And Americans both beat slaves (as did the Africans they bought
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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        > The brutal beating and rape of African slaves is a horror, in my book.
        >
        > It will be a day of progress, in my view, when people in the U.S. at least,
        > look at the horrors right here at home.

        Of course we both look at and ignore the brutal horrors right here at home
        -- we're human. And Americans both beat slaves (as did the Africans they
        bought them from) and fought the bloodiest war in the history of the world
        to that time because of them. Half the participants in the war we're on the
        right side. The others were not.

        The Nazis were less two-sided and less human. They not only enslaved people,
        they set out to deliberately exterminate all traces of them from Europe.

        I don't believe this is an either / or situation, in which we use one to
        ignore the other. It was terrible to enslave Africans and bring them here in
        chains. It was terrible to persecute Jews and others in the Holocaust.

        If slaveowners had invented the microwave, Danny would have said that. There
        was very little discussion of the Nazis.
      • elaine upton
        Hello John, Yes, we are in agreement. I have no argument with your post. Both Nazis and those in the slave trade and those who sent the natives on the Trail of
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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          Hello John,

          Yes, we are in agreement. I have no argument with your post. Both Nazis and
          those in the slave trade and those who sent the natives on the Trail of
          Tears committed horrors. I also have no criticism of Danny's posting of
          microwave problems and the microwave as a Nazi invention. My point was not
          to criticize your posts, but to note how often many of us look at Nazi
          horrors, and sometimes seem to ignore or forget those horrors right here.
          (My post was a reminder to myself, as well as to anyone else interested, so
          no criticism was meant...).

          Peace,
          elaine


          >From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
          >Reply-To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
          >To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
          >Subject: Re: American horrors--[anthroposophy]Cooking food the Nazis way...
          >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:58:45 -0400
          >
          > > The brutal beating and rape of African slaves is a horror, in my book.
          > >
          > > It will be a day of progress, in my view, when people in the U.S. at
          >least,
          > > look at the horrors right here at home.
          >
          >Of course we both look at and ignore the brutal horrors right here at home
          >-- we're human. And Americans both beat slaves (as did the Africans they
          >bought them from) and fought the bloodiest war in the history of the world
          >to that time because of them. Half the participants in the war we're on the
          >right side. The others were not.
          >
          >The Nazis were less two-sided and less human. They not only enslaved
          >people,
          >they set out to deliberately exterminate all traces of them from Europe.
          >
          >I don't believe this is an either / or situation, in which we use one to
          >ignore the other. It was terrible to enslave Africans and bring them here
          >in
          >chains. It was terrible to persecute Jews and others in the Holocaust.
          >
          >If slaveowners had invented the microwave, Danny would have said that.
          >There
          >was very little discussion of the Nazis.

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        • Danny F.
          ... If slaveowners had invented the microwave, Danny would have said that. Yes, if we keep in mind the notion of world and world-order and it s sequel in
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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            --- elaine upton <elaineupton@...> wrote:
            > Hello John,
            >
            > Yes, we are in agreement. I have no argument with your post. Both
            > Nazis and
            > those in the slave trade and those who sent the natives on the Trail
            > of
            > Tears committed horrors. I also have no criticism of Danny's posting
            > of
            > microwave problems and the microwave as a Nazi invention. My point
            > was not
            > to criticize your posts, but to note how often many of us look at
            > Nazi
            > horrors, and sometimes seem to ignore or forget those horrors right
            > here.
            > (My post was a reminder to myself, as well as to anyone else
            > interested, so
            > no criticism was meant...).
            >
            > Peace,
            > elaine
            >
            >
            > >From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
            > >Reply-To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
            > >To: anthroposophy@egroups.com
            > >Subject: Re: American horrors--[anthroposophy]Cooking food the Nazis
            > way...
            > >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:58:45 -0400
            > >
            > > > The brutal beating and rape of African slaves is a horror, in my
            > book.
            > > >
            > > > It will be a day of progress, in my view, when people in the U.S.
            > at
            > >least,
            > > > look at the horrors right here at home.
            > >
            > >Of course we both look at and ignore the brutal horrors right here
            > at home
            > >-- we're human. And Americans both beat slaves (as did the Africans
            > they
            > >bought them from) and fought the bloodiest war in the history of
            > the world
            > >to that time because of them. Half the participants in the war we're
            > on the
            > >right side. The others were not.
            > >
            > >The Nazis were less two-sided and less human. They not only enslaved
            >
            > >people,
            > >they set out to deliberately exterminate all traces of them from
            > Europe.
            > >
            > >I don't believe this is an either / or situation, in which we use
            > one to
            > >ignore the other. It was terrible to enslave Africans and bring them
            > here
            > >in
            > >chains. It was terrible to persecute Jews and others in the
            > Holocaust.
            > >
            > >If slaveowners had invented the microwave, Danny would have said
            > that.
            > >There
            > >was very little discussion of the Nazis.


            "If slaveowners had invented the microwave, Danny would have said
            that."

            Yes, if we keep in mind the notion of "world" and "world-order" and
            it's sequel in time. Slaveownership however to my eyes did(do) belong
            more to a non-christian widespread mentality, in a lesser way to the
            notion of "world", this is more a "behavior", EVIL for sure.

            With the Nazis we did have a "world"(the Nazis movement) that wants to
            be THE world of(over) the earth. May it have succeeded in it's aim
            no doubt the actual world around us would have been quite different.
            There would have been all kinds of Nazis ways for everything; cooking
            food electronically for what I understood was belonging and arised
            from their "world", their inspirations and alliances from
            beyond the Treshold. Fortunatly we did not have the Nazis macro-wave
            all over the earth, but we still got a "micro-wave"...

            Regards,
            Danny



            =====
            "Anthroposophy does not want to impart knowledge.
            It seeks to awaken life."

            --Rudolf Steiner

            __________________________________________________
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          • Johannus Faustus
            ... when i was in college, we did a project on comparisons to the nazis. anytime you want to demonize something... especially on campus, this was a strong
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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              >Interesting how we (or "we") return over and over to the Nazis and their
              >horrors, as though these horrors mesmerize


              when i was in college, we did a project on comparisons to the nazis.
              anytime you want to demonize something... especially on campus, this was a
              strong tendancy among all exclusionary groups, like the campus homosexuals,
              or the racial minority groups, even the campus christians. (especially the
              reactionary types themselves, who were most similar to the nazis. they
              viewed the government as 'big brother', as in waco and ruby ridge.)
              there is a book out ow called 'the holocost industry' written by a rabbi
              from new york, and it is all about how people are making money as
              professional victims and 'holocost survivors'.
              i think the whole nazi thing is enigmatical because they were master of mind
              control on the level of mass psychology and what they did appeals to our own
              demonic selves and desires.

              j
            • Danny F.
              ... ... what they did appeals to our own demonic selves and desires. It certainly does, for the notion of power is so inherent to it, but there s also the
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 12, 2000
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                --- Johannus Faustus <rrb@...> wrote:
                >
                > >Interesting how we (or "we") return over and over to the Nazis and
                > their
                > >horrors, as though these horrors mesmerize
                >
                >
                > when i was in college, we did a project on comparisons to the nazis.
                > anytime you want to demonize something... especially on campus, this
                > was a
                > strong tendancy among all exclusionary groups, like the campus
                > homosexuals,
                > or the racial minority groups, even the campus christians.
                > (especially the
                > reactionary types themselves, who were most similar to the nazis.
                > they
                > viewed the government as 'big brother', as in waco and ruby ridge.)
                > there is a book out ow called 'the holocost industry' written by a
                > rabbi
                > from new york, and it is all about how people are making money as
                > professional victims and 'holocost survivors'.
                > i think the whole nazi thing is enigmatical because they were master
                > of mind
                > control on the level of mass psychology and what they did appeals to
                > our own
                > demonic selves and desires.
                >
                > j

                ..."what they did appeals to our own demonic selves and desires."

                It certainly does, for the notion of power is so inherent to it,
                but there's also the "fascination" side of it as Elaine was
                mentionning earlier, and I don't think it comes from the horrors
                "itself", but rather to the absolute out of ordinary, on such a
                sense of rupture and of the paramount, shortly to another "world".
                I think it does meet with the subconsious sense that there's another
                "world" or "worlds". I think it goes beyond the horrors, it goes to
                where it is originating: another "world".

                Regards,
                Danny


                =====
                "Anthroposophy does not want to impart knowledge.
                It seeks to awaken life."

                --Rudolf Steiner

                __________________________________________________
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              • Joel A. Wendt
                Dear List, I have not been following this thread carefully, but as I glanced at the posts it seemed to me that there was really very little anthroposophical
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 14, 2000
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                  Dear List,

                  I have not been following this thread carefully, but as I glanced at the
                  posts it seemed to me that there was really very little "anthroposophical"
                  discusion of evil. The "horrors" mentioned seemed very typical knee-jerk
                  antipathetically driven reactions to events which make us uncomfortable
                  (genocide, etc.).

                  I think the discussion could get deeper. Some questions:

                  What is meant by the term "evil"?
                  Can a group (a general class of human beings) be "evil"?
                  Can any individual be "evil"?
                  Is evil an immoral act?
                  Must the doer know the act is immoral?
                  Is a supersensible being evil (such as ahriman)?
                  Does "evil" have a purpose in cosmic evolution?
                  If I think an act is immoral, does that make it "evil"?
                  If I think a person is immoral, does that make them "evil"?

                  Does anyone on this list get my point?

                  warm regards,
                  joel

                  Johannus Faustus wrote:

                  > >Interesting how we (or "we") return over and over to the Nazis and their
                  > >horrors, as though these horrors mesmerize
                  >
                  > when i was in college, we did a project on comparisons to the nazis.
                  > anytime you want to demonize something... especially on campus, this was a
                  > strong tendancy among all exclusionary groups, like the campus homosexuals,
                  > or the racial minority groups, even the campus christians. (especially the
                  > reactionary types themselves, who were most similar to the nazis. they
                  > viewed the government as 'big brother', as in waco and ruby ridge.)
                  > there is a book out ow called 'the holocost industry' written by a rabbi
                  > from new york, and it is all about how people are making money as
                  > professional victims and 'holocost survivors'.
                  > i think the whole nazi thing is enigmatical because they were master of mind
                  > control on the level of mass psychology and what they did appeals to our own
                  > demonic selves and desires.
                  >
                  > j
                  >
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