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How to fight against Asuras

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  • muriel durand-bourlier
    Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 8, 2004
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      Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
      At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
      I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
       
      Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
      Thank you for your help.
       
      Muriel.
       
      PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
      PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.


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    • Hogie McM
      Since The Father God rules over the Physical Body, I assume it is The Father God that would have the greatest effectiveness in countering the forces of the
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 8, 2004
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        Since The Father God rules over the Physical Body, I assume it is The Father God that would have the
        greatest effectiveness in countering the forces of the Asuras, who are able to penetrate as deep as the actual physical body itself, as well as being able to rip out portions of our being (soul) that can never be re-obtained in any form, but would be lost forever.
         
        Hogie
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:35 AM
        Subject: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

        Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
        At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
        I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
         
        Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
        Thank you for your help.
         
        Muriel.
         
        PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
        PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.


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      • Jan
        ... Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras Jan And no man comes to the Father save through Christ. ... From: muriel durand-bourlier
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 8, 2004
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          Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras
          Jan – And no man comes to the Father save through Christ.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: muriel durand-bourlier <mailto:murielesp@...>  
          To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:35 AM
          Subject: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

          Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
          At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
          I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
           
          Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
          Thank you for your help.
           
          Muriel.
           
          PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
          PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.

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        • Hogie McM
          Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against AsurasAbsolutely. Hogie ... From: Jan To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 11:01 PM
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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            Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras
            Absolutely.
            Hogie
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jan
            Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 11:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

            Jan – And no man comes to the Father save through Christ.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: muriel durand-bourlier <mailto:murielesp@...>  
            To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:35 AM
            Subject: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

            Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
            At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
            I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
             
            Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
            Thank you for your help.
             
            Muriel.
             
            PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
            PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.

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          • muriel durand-bourlier
            What do you mean with this ? Jan wrote:Jan – And no man comes to the Father save through Christ. ... From: muriel
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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              What do you mean with this ?

              Jan <starbirdgarden@...> wrote:
              Jan – And no man comes to the Father save through Christ.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: muriel durand-bourlier <mailto:murielesp@...>  
              To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:35 AM
              Subject: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

              Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
              At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
              I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
               
              Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
              Thank you for your help.
               
              Muriel.
               
              PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
              PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.

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            • Hogie McM
              I believe Jan also read my response to your inquiry. One may battle the Asuras through The Father, but no one comes to the Father accept through Christ.
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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                I believe Jan also read my response to your inquiry.
                One may battle the Asuras through The Father, but no one comes to the Father
                accept through Christ.  Therefore, a slight Paradox ensues, n'est pa?
                 
                Hogie
                 
                But, of course, Jan speaks for herself.
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 7:08 AM
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

                What do you mean with this ?

                Jan <starbirdgarden@...> wrote:
                Jan – And no man comes to the Father save through Christ.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: muriel durand-bourlier <mailto:murielesp@...>  
                To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:35 AM
                Subject: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

                Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman, we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight against Asuras ?
                At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than Asuras.
                I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
                 
                Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read about ?
                Thank you for your help.
                 
                Muriel.
                 
                PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
                PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect knowledge of English language.

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              • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/9/2004 12:07:29 AM Central Daylight Time, hogie@adelphia.net writes: Since The Father God rules over the Physical Body, I assume it is The
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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                  In a message dated 8/9/2004 12:07:29 AM Central Daylight Time, hogie@... writes:
                  Since The Father God rules over the Physical Body, I assume it is The Father God that would have the
                  greatest effectiveness in countering the forces of the Asuras, who are able to penetrate as deep as the actual physical body itself, as well as being able to rip out portions of our being (soul) that can never be re-obtained in any form, but would be lost forever
                  I am wondering if a shaman would agree with soul parts lost forever.  In a soul retreival the shaman goes in and fights and sometimes has to trick entities and lost soul parts in order to take back individual parts of a soul.  When soul's fragment themselves some of the time they have been wounded severely and do not desire to return.  I believe a shaman can work miracles in this area however it makes sense that portions of our being can be lost forever in certain cases.  I am wondering which  Steiner lecture/book this is mentioned so I can get a clearer perspective?  C
                • Jan
                  http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19090322p01.html http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EthBld_index.html Quote from The Etherisation of the Blood ­ Rudolf
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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                    Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras


                    http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19090322p01.html

                     http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EthBld_index.html

                    Quote from The Etherisation of the Blood – Rudolf Steiner
                    “ The dream of Socrates, that virtue can be taught, will come true; more and more it will be possible on Earth not only for the intellect to be stimulated and energized by this teaching but for moral impulses to be spread abroad. Schopenhauer said, “To preach morality is easy; to establish it is very difficult.” Why is this? Because no morality has yet been spread by preaching. It is quite possible to recognise moral principles and yet not abide by them. For most people the Pauline saying holds good, that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. This will change, because the moral fire streaming from the figure of Christ will intensify recognition of the need for moral impulses. Man will transform the earth by feeling with ever-increasing strength that morality is an essential part of it. In the future, to be immoral will be possible only for individuals who are goaded in this direction, who are possessed by evil demons, by Ahrimanic, Asuric Powers and more-over aspire to be so.
                     In time to come there will be on Earth a sufficient number of individuals who teach morality and at the same time sustain its principles; but there will also be those who by their own free decision surrender themselves to the evil Powers and thus enable an excess of evil to be pitted against a good humanity. Nobody will be forced to do this; it will lie in the free will of each individual.” end quote

                      By means of deep and sustained study of  Spiritual Science and practice of the exercises and meditations, we come into relation with Christ. The consciousness soul, arising from unconscious transformation of the physical body is lit by the ego (see lecture above from Steiner Archive)  and is therefore not in the province of any shaman.  What is immediately necessary is to bring Lucifer and Ahriman into balance via  relatedness to Christ, which strengthens the ego and enables it to transform the soul forces while also beginning the redemption of the adversaries as it brings them into relation with Christ also.
                      The Rose Cross meditation has a directly purifying influence upon the blood, and the Foundation Stone meditation brings us into healing relationship with the transforming and regenerating powers of the Trinity, via a useful and powerful working relationship with the hierarchies.
                    Jan
                  • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                    Going in this direction. Yes, of course. Here is some synchronization, I just started reading this lecture. ckh
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 9, 2004
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                      Going in this direction.  Yes, of course.  Here is some synchronization, I just started reading this lecture.  ckh
                    • joksu57
                      Hello Dear Jan and all! Many good aspects has been brought up in this discussion about how to deal with asuras . Finally we must come into relation with
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 10, 2004
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                        Hello Dear Jan and all!

                        Many good aspects has been brought up in this discussion about "how
                        to deal with asuras". Finally we must come into relation with Christ.
                        Andrea and Jan have aptly clarified some "methods" how this is
                        possible nowadays.

                        Asuras are retarded beings from the Saturn-period and in that time
                        our humanity got the "seed" to its physical body as well as a "seed"
                        to atmic-principle. These have some correspondenses to our will and
                        also our deeds can be considered in this category. It is clear thet
                        we can't directly "fight" against the asuras, as even St. Paul said
                        that: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood …" Violence &
                        jesuitic methods will be totally useless, actually they make
                        the "case worse".

                        With these referencies to body, will and deeds I want to come to the
                        concept of Karma. As we know, Christ is now the Lord of Karma. And
                        when we come into relation with Christ, it is possible to give our
                        individual karma "to the hand of Christ". (Forgiving our neighbour,
                        not demanding any retribution, is one deep "method" dealing with this
                        question). Then it is possible that "not our will, but the Will of
                        our Heavenly Father" happens. And the Will of our Heavenly Father
                        certainly wins over asuras.

                        In relation with this question of karma it is probably easier to
                        understand something about the deep lesson given to us by Christ
                        Jesus: "Resist not evil". Not fighting against the evil, but winning,
                        redeeming and transforming it. This requires "True Faith", but many
                        people think that Christ Jesus was impractical in His advices! In the
                        Tree of Good and Evil there are allways the opposites and fighting,
                        but in the Tree of Life there is unity and our Father's Will prevails.

                        As Dr. Steiner said (and Jan just cited): "… the moral fire streaming
                        from the figure of Christ will intensify recognition of the need for
                        moral impulses. Man will transform the earth by feeling with ever-
                        increasing strength that morality is an essential part of it". Only
                        preaching about morality is "weak", we must also strive according the
                        example and ethics of Christ Jesus, which is given in a concise form
                        in the Sermon on the Mount. I think that this is the best way
                        to "fight the asuras".

                        Warm Regards
                        Joksu



                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Jan <starbirdgarden@b...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19090322p01.html
                        >
                        > http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EthBld_index.html
                        >
                        > Quote from The Etherisation of the Blood ­ Rudolf Steiner
                        > ³ The dream of Socrates, that virtue can be taught, will come true;
                        more and
                        > more it will be possible on Earth not only for the intellect to be
                        > stimulated and energized by this teaching but for moral impulses to
                        be
                        > spread abroad. Schopenhauer said, ³To preach morality is easy; to
                        establish
                        > it is very difficult.² Why is this? Because no morality has yet
                        been spread
                        > by preaching. It is quite possible to recognise moral principles
                        and yet not
                        > abide by them. For most people the Pauline saying holds good, that
                        the
                        > spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. This will change, because
                        the moral
                        > fire streaming from the figure of Christ will intensify recognition
                        of the
                        > need for moral impulses. Man will transform the earth by feeling
                        with
                        > ever-increasing strength that morality is an essential part of it.
                        In the
                        > future, to be immoral will be possible only for individuals who are
                        goaded
                        > in this direction, who are possessed by evil demons, by Ahrimanic,
                        Asuric
                        > Powers and more-over aspire to be so.
                        > In time to come there will be on Earth a sufficient number of
                        individuals
                        > who teach morality and at the same time sustain its principles; but
                        there
                        > will also be those who by their own free decision surrender
                        themselves to
                        > the evil Powers and thus enable an excess of evil to be pitted
                        against a
                        > good humanity. Nobody will be forced to do this; it will lie in the
                        free
                        > will of each individual.² end quote
                        >
                        > By means of deep and sustained study of Spiritual Science and
                        practice of
                        > the exercises and meditations, we come into relation with Christ.
                        The
                        > consciousness soul, arising from unconscious transformation of the
                        physical
                        > body is lit by the ego (see lecture above from Steiner Archive)
                        and is
                        > therefore not in the province of any shaman. What is immediately
                        necessary
                        > is to bring Lucifer and Ahriman into balance via relatedness to
                        Christ,
                        > which strengthens the ego and enables it to transform the soul
                        forces while
                        > also beginning the redemption of the adversaries as it brings them
                        into
                        > relation with Christ also.
                        > The Rose Cross meditation has a directly purifying influence upon
                        the
                        > blood, and the Foundation Stone meditation brings us into healing
                        > relationship with the transforming and regenerating powers of the
                        Trinity,
                        > via a useful and powerful working relationship with the hierarchies.
                        > Jan
                      • Jan
                        Hello Joksu, The below written before reading your post, which has just arrived so it is not a direct reply. We must be thinking along the same lines! Let me
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 10, 2004
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                          Hello Joksu,
                          The below written before reading your post, which has just arrived so it
                          is not a direct reply. We must be thinking along the same lines! Let me
                          say again how lovely it was to meet you and your son here last week during
                          your visit to London. It was a happy and fruitful meeting for me, which I
                          owe to this forum.


                          Perhaps we should reconsider the term 'fighting' the Asuras. Rudolf
                          Steiner once stated that one could not fight demons but only starve them.
                          This also touches upon the mystery of the words 'resist not evil' which can
                          lead us to the white magic of the Manicheans.
                          When my sons were children and I wanted them to do an errand, perhaps
                          fetch something from a local shop, I would send them 'on a mission.' This
                          they loved and spiced an ordinary advent with adventure, so that my very
                          mundane paper or packet of tea would arrive in a wave of triumph and
                          achievement. Or they would get it wrong. Err-and and miss-ion both contain
                          the possibility of fruitful failure.
                          An early wave of Manicheans have entered into situations where, for some,
                          their powers of transformation have been overwhelmed by the strength and
                          nature of the evil into which they have delved, perhaps with the result of
                          acquiring a greater potential for good in later incarnations and gaining new
                          insight in the life after death. The Manichean magic is not yet fully
                          operative and there is heroism and sacrifice in the souls who dive deeply
                          into difficult and spiritually dangerous incarnations and pave the way often
                          by their seeming failure.
                          It is interesting to research the lives of some such souls. The author
                          and feminist Rebecca West, for example, is as famous for her ten year affair
                          with the famous racist and eugenicist author H G Wells as for her own books.
                          She was probably known principally for her books on Yugoslavia and her
                          reports on the Nuremberg trials at which she was present and her articles
                          for various feminist and political periodicals and magazines than for her
                          'family' novels.

                          Quote from encyclopedia.
                          Rebecca West was the pseudonym of Cecily (or Cicily) Isabel Fairfield
                          (December 25, 1892- March 15, 1983), a British-Irish feminist and writer
                          famous for her novels and for her relationship with H. G. Wells.
                          She was born in County Kerry, Ireland. Her Irish journalist father deserted
                          her Scottish mother -- and then died -- while Cecily was still a child. The
                          rest of the family moved to Edinburgh, Scotland, where she was educated. She
                          trained as an actress, taking the name "Rebecca West" from one of Ibsen's
                          plays. She became involved in the women's suffrage movement before the First
                          World War, and worked as a journalist on Freewoman and the Clarion. She met
                          Wells in 1913, and their affair lasted ten years. They had a son, Anthony,
                          but Wells was already married (for the second time). West is also said to
                          have had affairs with Charlie Chaplin and newspaper magnate Max Beaverbrook.
                          In 1930, she married a banker, Henry Maxwell Andrews, and they remained
                          together until his death in 1968. Before and during the Second World War,
                          West traveled widely, collecting material for books on travel and politics.
                          She was present at the Nuremberg trials. Her later work as a writer and
                          broadcaster reflected these experiences.
                          Rebecca West was created a DBE ("Dame") in 1959 for her services to
                          literature. End of quote.


                          If you have read the short quote above you will see that Rebecca West
                          leapt into the very belly of the Beast, associating with Bankers, Newspaper
                          Magnates, reductionist and socially-manipulative Science, into glamourous
                          Hollywood and the Fabians Eugenicists who planned a new and frightening
                          world, many of whom were her close friends. The infamous Bertrand Russell
                          for one. Her destiny took her into right into the vortex of ideas and
                          ideologies of the time,into a battle of Ideology-Beings, towards the end of
                          her life more especially those of the British and American Establishments.
                          Among many other powerful and influential men she knew very well was Allen
                          Dulles, first director of the CIA and later she had an affair with Attorney
                          General Francis Biddle, who was one of the judges at the Nuremberg trials.
                          The FBI kept a file on her.
                          In opposition to her fascinating but very right wing father she took up
                          the causes of the left in her youth, becoming violently anti communist in
                          later years when disillusioned by the atrocities of Stalinist Russia,
                          although her left wing friends were ignoring these at the time. (And why is
                          dis-illusioned so often seen as a negative state? To see through an
                          illusion is to be freed from its spell and able to learn from it.)
                          She ended just as opposed to communism as fascism, believing that the good
                          inherent in people must be brought out by love and the rule of law. (Whose
                          laws, one might ask! H G Wells?) Her great tragedy was the lack of an
                          Esoteric Christology and her fear of the occasional supersensible
                          experiences she had.
                          When I first read 'The Fountain Overflows', a partly biographical novel by
                          Rebecca West, I recognized at once that it had an underlying Manichean
                          thread, and so was not surprised to find that she had been fascinated by
                          Augustine and had written a short biography of him, although her grasp of
                          Manichaeism was incomplete lacking an esoteric dimension. I read the two
                          further books which made up the trilogy and saw that her lack of
                          understanding had its roots mostly in an aversion to Christianity as she
                          understood it and a lack of deeper insight which Spiritual Science would
                          have brought to her world view. She herself accepted that she had taken on
                          more than she could finish, having intended a fourth book culminating in an
                          act of Manichean sacrifice in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany, but
                          lacking the ability and insight needed to accomplish it.
                          The theme of the books is the gentle absorption of evil by simple but
                          intensely powerful and inherently good people who understand how to work on
                          levels unknown and unsuspected by ordinary folk. They are able to roll in
                          the muddier parts of life, misunderstood but without becoming inwardly
                          dirtied, unlike Rebecca herself, whose passions led her into many dark
                          byways from which she did not emerge unscathed. Some have seen the
                          autobiographical aspect of the books as hypocritical as so much of the
                          character representing Rebecca herself is wishful thinking, almost an
                          opposite, mirror image of herself as she really lived her life. But this is
                          to see only part of the picture.
                          Her involvement with H G Wells drew her into a polar opposite of Goethean
                          science and into his racist supremacist ideology essentially at odds with
                          her truly cosmopolitan view. Her obsession with sex drew her into affair
                          after affair, her sex life with Wells being rather horribly based on the
                          pretence of being two mating wild cats whose mouths were smeared with blood
                          from a recent kill. She despised vegetarians, had an inordinate love of
                          meat and food generally which bordered on greed, as well as a passion for
                          money and what it could buy. She neglected the son she had with Wells,
                          vilified her kindly elder sister and when undergoing Freudian analysis
                          stated that she had been subjected to oral sexual abuse by her father whilst
                          in her cot.
                          Incidentally, as a child I was subjected to Freudian analysis on a regular
                          weekly basis from the age of eight to eleven and similar suggestions were
                          made to me, but I had the loving protection of a large Plane tree near the
                          clinic and recourse to other techniques of soul-guarding also and was able
                          to give the lie to the suggestions and refute them utterly, although I did
                          not understand them fully until many years later.
                          Sometimes it may take more than one incarnation to accomplish the task of
                          transformation of evil in any particular area. A reconnaissance life such
                          as Rebecca's may first be necessary, an entering and knowing of alien
                          territory kind of life. Failure here and now may well be fruitful later,
                          since Christ is Lord of Karma. Rebecca could not be Rosamund the heroine of
                          her family trilogy, going to the heart of the Ahrimanic deception, married
                          to an archetypal Bankster, Rose of the World crucified and blooming upon the
                          World's body. The novels give indications and outlines merely of something
                          she could not see in its entirety.
                          But she was fired with ideals, right to the end of her long life, filled
                          with the warming, moral fire that works as life giving force in the world.

                          Steiner - from 'The Bridge Between Universal Spirituality and the Physical
                          Constitution of Man -
                          "When we study the whole man we find a bridge between moral ideals and
                          what works as life giving force in the physical world, even in the chemical
                          sense. For tone works in the chemical sense by assembling substances and
                          dispersing them again. Light in the world has its source in the moral
                          stimuli, in the warmth-organisms of men. Thus we look into the future - new
                          worlds take shape. And as in the case of the plant we must go back to the
                          seed, so in the case of future worlds that will come into being, we must go
                          back to the seeds which lie in us as moral ideals.....Moral ideas, or ideas
                          of a moral-religious character which fire us with enthusiasm and become
                          impulses for deeds, work as world creative powers." end quote.

                          he goes on to explain how theoretical ideas cool and deaden the world. H G
                          Wells was a prime example, and worse, of this kind of thinking.

                          Quote from Inkling University Birth Control and Eugenics
                          "Wells stumbled badly with 'Anticipations,' the first of his new sort of
                          books. Set just after the year 2000, it envisioned the formation of a World
                          State dominated by a "great federation of white English-speaking peoples."
                          Ruthless efficiency was the chief trait Wells valued. His World State was to
                          be run "capable men" drawn from "Trust-owned business organizations,
                          universities and a new sort of military in tune with his ideas. At the other
                          end of the power spectrum would be the "multiplying rejected of the white
                          and yellow races" along with the "vast proportion of the black and brown
                          races." Dark skin, in his mind, was linked to a greater inferiority.
                          Anticipations introduced Wells to a couple who would have a remarkable
                          impact on British politics, Sidney and Beatrice Webb. They were delighted by
                          the future Wells envisioned and eagerly introduced him to their friends in
                          the Fabian Society, the 'think tank' for the British Labor Party. Their only
                          complaint was that his World State did not yet include "the trained
                          administrator, the expert in organizing men"‹a scientist as skilled at
                          manipulating people as physicists were at controlling electrons. The Fabians
                          were the model for N.I.C.E., an organization that C. S. Lewis would
                          criticize in his science fiction work, That Hideous Strength." end quote.

                          The first attack of the Asuric beings lies in convincing humanity that it is
                          of animal nature only, living in a purely material world where such concepts
                          as those of H G Wells are desirable and practical for a ruling elite.
                          Rebecca West embraced this in her relationship with him and what she took
                          from it yet cancelled it out, balanced it by the true fire of her ideals
                          which had led her to seek brotherhood and freedom for man via ideologies and
                          then had the courage to be dis-illusioned and so freed from the Beings which
                          manipulate them.
                          In the life after death of souls such as Rebecca West, surely there must be
                          much that can be harvested and transformed for future good from a life so
                          richly lived, perhaps with the aid of here on earth trained in joining the
                          dots of symptom to those of reality with love and compassion for those who
                          dare risk a fruitful failure.
                          Jan
                        • Hogie McM
                          this lecture definitely exists...Ill try to find it for you Hogie ... From: Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 09,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                            this lecture definitely exists...Ill try to find it for you
                             
                            Hogie
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 1:56 PM
                            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] How to fight against Asuras

                            In a message dated 8/9/2004 12:07:29 AM Central Daylight Time, hogie@... writes:
                            Since The Father God rules over the Physical Body, I assume it is The Father God that would have the
                            greatest effectiveness in countering the forces of the Asuras, who are able to penetrate as deep as the actual physical body itself, as well as being able to rip out portions of our being (soul) that can never be re-obtained in any form, but would be lost forever
                            I am wondering if a shaman would agree with soul parts lost forever.  In a soul retreival the shaman goes in and fights and sometimes has to trick entities and lost soul parts in order to take back individual parts of a soul.  When soul's fragment themselves some of the time they have been wounded severely and do not desire to return.  I believe a shaman can work miracles in this area however it makes sense that portions of our being can be lost forever in certain cases.  I am wondering which  Steiner lecture/book this is mentioned so I can get a clearer perspective?  C


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                          • holderlin66
                            The White Moth. A. T. QUILLER COUCH If a leaf rustled, she would start: And yet she died, a year ago How had so frail a thing the heart To journey where she
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                              The White Moth.

                              A. T. QUILLER COUCH

                              If a leaf rustled, she would start:
                              And yet she died, a year ago
                              How had so frail a thing the heart
                              To journey where she trembled so?
                              And do they turn and turn in fright,
                              Those little feet, in so much night?

                              The light above the poet's head
                              Streamed on the page and on the cloth,
                              And twice and thrice there buffeted
                              On the black pane a white-wingd moth:

                              'Twas Annie's soul that beat outside,
                              And "Open, open, open!" cried:
                              I could not find the way to God;
                              There were too many flaming suns

                              For signposts, and the fearful road
                              Led over wastes where millions
                              Of tangled comets hissed and burned--
                              I was bewilder'd and I turned.

                              "O, it was easy then! I knew
                              Your window and no star beside.
                              Look up and take me back to you!"
                              He rose and thrust the window wide.

                              'Twas but because his brain was hot
                              With rhyming; for he heard her not.
                              But poets polishing a phrase
                              Show anger over trivial things:

                              And as she blundered in the blaze
                              Towards him, on ecstatic wings,
                              He raised a hand and smote her dead;
                              Then wrote, "That I had died instead."

                              Bradford comments;

                              There is an occult perception, very simple to observe, very complex
                              but as simple as any lesson that was ever written in the great book
                              of nature. Moth and Butterfly and how each relates to the light are
                              a visible lesson. What is the moral of this story? It has profound
                              meaning. Moths have an erratic nervous disorder in relation to the
                              light. Butterflies have a well organized Devachan imprint on their
                              wing patterns. Butterflies reveal tribe, nation, and pheromone
                              scented holiness of their distinct and specific tracking breed.

                              In Spiritual Science we find the road to Konig and Steiner where a
                              Butterfly and the blossom and petals of a flower reveal a rooted
                              mystery and a freed mystery. In fact in any Waldorf Training camp we
                              can follow the steps of the caterpillar, the stages of it and see
                              how the Holy SPirit hovers in living and loving numerical ratio over
                              the blossom and plant kingdom. There is an entombment death and
                              Resurrection in the life of the caterpillar. In other words the
                              blossom and the butterfly are a calibrated match.

                              I love the word calibrated, one can see a great deal with the word
                              calibrated. Size and ratio of Being to Being are calibrated. The
                              Moon moving closer or further away reveals the giant redwood forests
                              or the calibrated current size of the butterfly.

                              The Butterfly is not a bird, it is the hovering soul and spirit,
                              Angels of the Plant world. How is your Nectar, blood sugar and
                              courage today? Do you really understand blood sugar and diabetes?
                              Has your sweet nectar also fed the Dead and your Angel? Has it
                              produced some thought life that is not merely bug lite?

                              Now things go very differently for the moth. Here you have an
                              opportunity to study, "The Devil and Daniel Webster". This is an
                              important study, as important as Faust is to Anthros. "The Devil and
                              Daniel Webster" is really about imprisoning the soul/spirit and the
                              nature of Moth to light. It is part of the study that leads us
                              toward the objective lessons of the Asuras vs the courage of
                              humanity.

                              But we need not study these texts..we find ourselves faint and
                              thought thickens, chills and slows in us. We crave a quicker
                              gratification to our question. The development of the Moth, its
                              brown, dried leaf imagery, where the life force has been depleted
                              from it, creates also an erratic nervous disorder in how the moth is
                              constantly fooled by Light. The moth is pathologically fooled by
                              false light. It suffers from a suicidal nervous disorder that
                              hungers for false light the way butterflies hunger for true Plant
                              perfume prayers. Prayers of perfume that the plant has wrought in
                              its humble earth bound enchantment rise into the air and these
                              prayer signals are read in the pheromone navigation of the tribes,
                              breeds and various families of butterfly Angels.

                              Some might think Spiritual Science is being poetic on this point. If
                              you think this is a sweet poetic metaphor or analogy you have no
                              idea the depth of Goethean Science nor the depth of the question of
                              how to approach the fight against the Asuras. It is a topic that
                              still haunts us and makes us shiver. It makes us shiver more than
                              the Christ warms our courage. Or; how do we find courage and do we
                              need to constantly place ourselves in Frodo's matrix of tension?

                              Jan wrote profoundly on the biographical excursions into dangerous
                              philosophic regions as explored by Isabel Fairfield. Does the
                              butterfly gain its superior Devachan wing colorings by tasting and
                              facing sharper Devachan mysteries? What are sharper Devachan
                              mysteries in the world around us? Do you know?

                              The nervous disorder and infection that has built up to a craving in
                              the moth also builds up in a human being. To become addicted to the
                              falsity of mistaking S&M for Love or mistaking the Risen Etheric
                              Christ imbued brotherhood for SunScreen; or quiet poisoning of
                              Depleted Uranium in the woody whispers of forests and meadows that
                              show acre upon acre of greenery, but, the forest is Chernobyl and
                              the poison will remain this way, in the murky invisibility of occult
                              deception, for 900 years, cursed. But all the elemntal beings will
                              have been changed to monsters.. this represents only a fragment of
                              the nature of the infection of the Asura and the corruption of Light
                              itself. What is the shelf life of an elemental being?

                              Jan, Joksu and I would also draw attention to Orc and Elve, but all
                              these are specific studies and alas, only rare researchers engage
                              their wings, engage their Devachan curiosity into regions where
                              humanity strays from the light. Most haven't the science, the soul
                              or the intelligence to see the hidden patterns running from
                              religion, politics, science and through the halls of nature up to
                              the soul of each human being. Therefore these big questions, ASURAS,
                              make the squeamish want to run to the potty and pee.

                              But when faddish craving for tatoo and torture, gothic sensuality
                              and enjoying the torture and interrogation of prisoners and giving
                              the nod to Abu Ghraib and CIA and Israel Gulags..left over from Nazi
                              and Stalin infested Gulags, all these fads and immoral decisions of
                              humanity move steadily toward Asura worship. That worship is what
                              the disorder in the moth reveals. It shows that the wings have been
                              depleted of their living light, their Devachan glory. Shrivelled
                              brownish, sometimes pure white maggot ghost vegetable moths...and
                              yet no matter how exotic the vampires of the night appear, the soul
                              and the moth have absorbed a disorder of the order of the moral
                              lesson of nature into their systems.

                              For indeed A Sun Being of the magitude of the Christ turned with
                              Solar Magnification into the single body of a human being and walked
                              as a Sun Compass on the Earth. But equally, the beings who move our
                              immortality forwards along the prayer of plants and the works and
                              deeds of humanity through courage and compassion also have their
                              Manichean polar opposite in the reverse of the progress, in the
                              corrosion and eating away of the I AM through specific stages. Jan
                              and Joksu can outline these specific stages with astonishing
                              originality.

                              To get to the core of the I AM and tear away portions of it, The I
                              AM must be slowly corrupted from within. That Egotism could become
                              so material that instead of eating my brothers and sisters hearts in
                              spirit, in thought, in joy and celebration of their existence, we
                              literally eat our brothers hearts. Instead of understanding the I AM
                              in the blood we quantify and learn to breed certain racial strains
                              of blood and flesh. We take cellular identity and we rob it of its
                              orginality and chip pieces of the glory of the I AM into cloned,
                              manmade cellular, star cursed, clusters of matter. Can we and will
                              we go this far without plunging into the very Ethics out of which
                              Spiritual Science and Anthroposophy are made of?
                            • holderlin66
                              Now we whisper together in the chrysalis of the christ Being. It is a fine gold dew or mist that is TRUSTED AND ENTRUSTED to the Lord of the Green Man just as
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                                Now we whisper together in the chrysalis of the christ Being.

                                "It is a fine gold dew or mist that is TRUSTED AND ENTRUSTED to the
                                Lord of the Green Man just as there are subtle quantities of gold in
                                sperm..and we entrust ourselves to the Lord of Karma. It is the Sun
                                Being behind the physical Sun and physical Solar system, the actual
                                Being Seraphim baptized, Father blessed, Sun brotherhood that Rose
                                and entered every crack of supposed atomic structure of earth and
                                matter.. and now in every little crack circulates this gold mist..
                                from the blood of Christ, because Christ penetrated down to the
                                Marrow of the bones of Jesus.

                                That makes Earth a mighty cocoon. How dare we think with such springs
                                of thought? We do because Steiner and Nature reveal many secrets that
                                are true Science."
                              • Derek Hagen
                                To all on this thread - haven t we gone too far in the directions of fear, fancy and abstraction? Balance, people, balance. Desperado 1945 ... Derek Hagen Mac
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                                  To all on this thread - haven't we gone too far in the directions of
                                  fear, fancy and abstraction? Balance, people, balance.

                                  Desperado 1945
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                                • Jan
                                  More synchronicity! I was very recently reading and pondering this poem..... Much food for thought Brad. Let the digesting begin.... Jan
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                                    More synchronicity! I was very recently reading and pondering this
                                    poem..... Much food for thought Brad. Let the digesting begin....
                                    Jan



                                    > The White Moth.
                                    >
                                    > A. T. QUILLER COUCH
                                    >
                                    > If a leaf rustled, she would start:
                                    > And yet she died, a year ago
                                    > How had so frail a thing the heart
                                    > To journey where she trembled so?
                                    > And do they turn and turn in fright,
                                    > Those little feet, in so much night?
                                    >
                                    > The light above the poet's head
                                    > Streamed on the page and on the cloth,
                                    > And twice and thrice there buffeted
                                    > On the black pane a white-wingd moth:
                                    >
                                    > 'Twas Annie's soul that beat outside,
                                    > And "Open, open, open!" cried:
                                    > I could not find the way to God;
                                    > There were too many flaming suns
                                    >
                                    > For signposts, and the fearful road
                                    > Led over wastes where millions
                                    > Of tangled comets hissed and burned--
                                    > I was bewilder'd and I turned.
                                    >
                                    > "O, it was easy then! I knew
                                    > Your window and no star beside.
                                    > Look up and take me back to you!"
                                    > He rose and thrust the window wide.
                                    >
                                    > 'Twas but because his brain was hot
                                    > With rhyming; for he heard her not.
                                    > But poets polishing a phrase
                                    > Show anger over trivial things:
                                    >
                                    > And as she blundered in the blaze
                                    > Towards him, on ecstatic wings,
                                    > He raised a hand and smote her dead;
                                    > Then wrote, "That I had died instead."
                                    >
                                    > Bradford comments;
                                    >
                                    > There is an occult perception, very simple to observe, very complex
                                    > but as simple as any lesson that was ever written in the great book
                                    > of nature. Moth and Butterfly and how each relates to the light are
                                    > a visible lesson. What is the moral of this story? It has profound
                                    > meaning. Moths have an erratic nervous disorder in relation to the
                                    > light. Butterflies have a well organized Devachan imprint on their
                                    > wing patterns. Butterflies reveal tribe, nation, and pheromone
                                    > scented holiness of their distinct and specific tracking breed.
                                    >
                                    > In Spiritual Science we find the road to Konig and Steiner where a
                                    > Butterfly and the blossom and petals of a flower reveal a rooted
                                    > mystery and a freed mystery. In fact in any Waldorf Training camp we
                                    > can follow the steps of the caterpillar, the stages of it and see
                                    > how the Holy SPirit hovers in living and loving numerical ratio over
                                    > the blossom and plant kingdom. There is an entombment death and
                                    > Resurrection in the life of the caterpillar. In other words the
                                    > blossom and the butterfly are a calibrated match.
                                    >
                                    > I love the word calibrated, one can see a great deal with the word
                                    > calibrated. Size and ratio of Being to Being are calibrated. The
                                    > Moon moving closer or further away reveals the giant redwood forests
                                    > or the calibrated current size of the butterfly.
                                    >
                                    > The Butterfly is not a bird, it is the hovering soul and spirit,
                                    > Angels of the Plant world. How is your Nectar, blood sugar and
                                    > courage today? Do you really understand blood sugar and diabetes?
                                    > Has your sweet nectar also fed the Dead and your Angel? Has it
                                    > produced some thought life that is not merely bug lite?
                                    >
                                    > Now things go very differently for the moth. Here you have an
                                    > opportunity to study, "The Devil and Daniel Webster". This is an
                                    > important study, as important as Faust is to Anthros. "The Devil and
                                    > Daniel Webster" is really about imprisoning the soul/spirit and the
                                    > nature of Moth to light. It is part of the study that leads us
                                    > toward the objective lessons of the Asuras vs the courage of
                                    > humanity.
                                    >
                                    > But we need not study these texts..we find ourselves faint and
                                    > thought thickens, chills and slows in us. We crave a quicker
                                    > gratification to our question. The development of the Moth, its
                                    > brown, dried leaf imagery, where the life force has been depleted
                                    > from it, creates also an erratic nervous disorder in how the moth is
                                    > constantly fooled by Light. The moth is pathologically fooled by
                                    > false light. It suffers from a suicidal nervous disorder that
                                    > hungers for false light the way butterflies hunger for true Plant
                                    > perfume prayers. Prayers of perfume that the plant has wrought in
                                    > its humble earth bound enchantment rise into the air and these
                                    > prayer signals are read in the pheromone navigation of the tribes,
                                    > breeds and various families of butterfly Angels.
                                    >
                                    > Some might think Spiritual Science is being poetic on this point. If
                                    > you think this is a sweet poetic metaphor or analogy you have no
                                    > idea the depth of Goethean Science nor the depth of the question of
                                    > how to approach the fight against the Asuras. It is a topic that
                                    > still haunts us and makes us shiver. It makes us shiver more than
                                    > the Christ warms our courage. Or; how do we find courage and do we
                                    > need to constantly place ourselves in Frodo's matrix of tension?
                                    >
                                    > Jan wrote profoundly on the biographical excursions into dangerous
                                    > philosophic regions as explored by Isabel Fairfield. Does the
                                    > butterfly gain its superior Devachan wing colorings by tasting and
                                    > facing sharper Devachan mysteries? What are sharper Devachan
                                    > mysteries in the world around us? Do you know?
                                    >
                                    > The nervous disorder and infection that has built up to a craving in
                                    > the moth also builds up in a human being. To become addicted to the
                                    > falsity of mistaking S&M for Love or mistaking the Risen Etheric
                                    > Christ imbued brotherhood for SunScreen; or quiet poisoning of
                                    > Depleted Uranium in the woody whispers of forests and meadows that
                                    > show acre upon acre of greenery, but, the forest is Chernobyl and
                                    > the poison will remain this way, in the murky invisibility of occult
                                    > deception, for 900 years, cursed. But all the elemntal beings will
                                    > have been changed to monsters.. this represents only a fragment of
                                    > the nature of the infection of the Asura and the corruption of Light
                                    > itself. What is the shelf life of an elemental being?
                                    >
                                    > Jan, Joksu and I would also draw attention to Orc and Elve, but all
                                    > these are specific studies and alas, only rare researchers engage
                                    > their wings, engage their Devachan curiosity into regions where
                                    > humanity strays from the light. Most haven't the science, the soul
                                    > or the intelligence to see the hidden patterns running from
                                    > religion, politics, science and through the halls of nature up to
                                    > the soul of each human being. Therefore these big questions, ASURAS,
                                    > make the squeamish want to run to the potty and pee.
                                    >
                                    > But when faddish craving for tatoo and torture, gothic sensuality
                                    > and enjoying the torture and interrogation of prisoners and giving
                                    > the nod to Abu Ghraib and CIA and Israel Gulags..left over from Nazi
                                    > and Stalin infested Gulags, all these fads and immoral decisions of
                                    > humanity move steadily toward Asura worship. That worship is what
                                    > the disorder in the moth reveals. It shows that the wings have been
                                    > depleted of their living light, their Devachan glory. Shrivelled
                                    > brownish, sometimes pure white maggot ghost vegetable moths...and
                                    > yet no matter how exotic the vampires of the night appear, the soul
                                    > and the moth have absorbed a disorder of the order of the moral
                                    > lesson of nature into their systems.
                                    >
                                    > For indeed A Sun Being of the magitude of the Christ turned with
                                    > Solar Magnification into the single body of a human being and walked
                                    > as a Sun Compass on the Earth. But equally, the beings who move our
                                    > immortality forwards along the prayer of plants and the works and
                                    > deeds of humanity through courage and compassion also have their
                                    > Manichean polar opposite in the reverse of the progress, in the
                                    > corrosion and eating away of the I AM through specific stages. Jan
                                    > and Joksu can outline these specific stages with astonishing
                                    > originality.
                                    >
                                    > To get to the core of the I AM and tear away portions of it, The I
                                    > AM must be slowly corrupted from within. That Egotism could become
                                    > so material that instead of eating my brothers and sisters hearts in
                                    > spirit, in thought, in joy and celebration of their existence, we
                                    > literally eat our brothers hearts. Instead of understanding the I AM
                                    > in the blood we quantify and learn to breed certain racial strains
                                    > of blood and flesh. We take cellular identity and we rob it of its
                                    > orginality and chip pieces of the glory of the I AM into cloned,
                                    > manmade cellular, star cursed, clusters of matter. Can we and will
                                    > we go this far without plunging into the very Ethics out of which
                                    > Spiritual Science and Anthroposophy are made of?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • joksu57
                                    Hello Brad and Jan! Bradford brought up very inspiring ideas about the Sun Being, gold (as a metal belonging to the Sun) and Earth as a cocoon. Then I
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 11, 2004
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                                      Hello Brad and Jan!

                                      Bradford brought up very inspiring ideas about the Sun Being, gold
                                      (as a metal "belonging" to the Sun) and Earth as a cocoon. Then I
                                      remembered a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven given to us by
                                      Christ Jesus:
                                      "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and
                                      hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

                                      This "leaven" (or a "mustard seed" in an another parable) is the
                                      true spiritual gold brought to Earth by Christ Jesus and our
                                      Heavenly Father. And now Earth is a mighty cocoon, because Earth is
                                      in a process of becaming a future Sun; transforming slowly to
                                      Spiritual Gold! A "Logos-mission" lies ahead of our humanity and
                                      that is why our school in this planet is so hard and thorough.

                                      It's so nice to exchange thoughts with you again, Brad. As I told to
                                      Jan earlier, the first half of this years was quite difficult to me
                                      and I didn't have the energy to write anything to the forum. But
                                      then before my voyage to London I wrote to Jan. We exhanged some
                                      posts and finally we had an inspiring meeting in Jan's home. And now
                                      I feel much better!

                                      Jan, in my first post I also thought about the Manicheans and I have
                                      felt a long time that the teachings of Mr. Ervast are bordering
                                      closely the Manichean stream. After the changes in Karma, I think
                                      that nowadays the Manichean magic has more possibilities to become
                                      operative. Jesus Christ of course showed us what it is like when one
                                      is "not resisting evil". But martyrdom was the fate of the early
                                      christians. And "speakers of thruth" were killed along many, many
                                      centuries. But in later times, e.g. Leo Tolstoy, HPB and Dr. Steiner
                                      could live and work. When we think about Rudolf Steiner, certainly
                                      there was martyrdom in his life, but now it was connected to his
                                      work and teachings; he was not killed.

                                      After the second, ethereal coming of the Christ, possibilities are
                                      much greater. Those souls, who strive in earnest but don't succeed
                                      in one incarnation to fulfill their special "duty" (dharma), have
                                      anyway made great preparations towards their next incarnation.
                                      Christ is the Lord of Karma and there is no reason for despair.

                                      Jan, give my regards to Graham; the Camden Town was interesting
                                      place, Ahto really loved it!

                                      Joksu
                                    • joksu57
                                      Hi Derek! And a more balanced, less fancy and more concrete view in this thread named How to fight against Asuras would be something like... hmmm??? From my
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                        Hi Derek!

                                        And a more balanced, less fancy and more concrete view in this
                                        thread named "How to fight against Asuras" would be something like...
                                        hmmm???

                                        From my point of view the question about fear is interesting and
                                        relevant. A spiritual teacher once gave (IMO) a good description
                                        about fear and according to my clumsy translation it goes something
                                        like this: "fear is belief in evil". And what is feared is usually
                                        resisted or then we fearfully "run away". That's why the figure of
                                        Christ and the true meaning of Love cannot be overlooked in this
                                        context. (Love is a good antidote to fear.) I think that in the
                                        advice "resist not evil" there is an aspect about "misplaced energy",
                                        which can be transformed. I suppose that this approach requires a lot
                                        of courage.

                                        Taking the so called evil solely the subject of our meditations can
                                        be dangerous. The readers of Tolkien surely understand if I mention
                                        in this connection the concept "Saruman-effect" (I really don't know
                                        if such a concept has ever been mentioned before). Anyway after
                                        studying eagerly the "black" figure of Sauron, the old wizard started
                                        to believe in the might of the evil. There is also the danger
                                        of "creeping pessimism" in our worldview.

                                        But naturally these before mentioned "circumstances" do not refute
                                        the fact that also the "darker regions" of existance must be
                                        explored. Perhaps here we really need the balance about which Derek
                                        talked about.

                                        Warm Regards
                                        Joksu


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                                      • holderlin66
                                        Bradford wrote; If we look at the infection and the effects that radiation and DU or Depleted Urnaium has on man..we also come to an elemental mystery of how
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 16, 2004
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                                          Bradford wrote;

                                          "If we look at the infection and the effects that radiation and DU or
                                          Depleted Urnaium has on man..we also come to an elemental mystery of
                                          how moral forces and betrayed fire spirits, ancient Agni fire gods,
                                          and spirits have been knocked out of sync with human development
                                          through our nuclear testing. You might say, how did you get that
                                          strange idea Bugford? Well my geiger counter is going to tell me
                                          that this part of the woods is not going to be safe to walk. Even if
                                          everything looks the same, the buildings are intact, flowers seem to
                                          grow, cars are in the streets, food is in cans, but something is
                                          wrong, the people are all dead.

                                          But try to hold in your depleted brain case, under the evil
                                          enchantment that allows thinking to go toward suicide, that Steiner,
                                          and most here on this list, will verify to your wicked enchantment
                                          that moral fire, elemental beings, salamanders and fire spirits of
                                          the great Agni, Asura and Sorathian variety, garden variety Saturn
                                          Courage and Immortality forces that are hiding as the central Core
                                          of the I AM and the conscious link to white or black magic are real
                                          FIRE."

                                          Further comments;

                                          Friends we must needs ask ourselves, and those who remain in kiddie
                                          park abstraction, well, just sit in the back of the classroom and
                                          try not to fall asleep, we need to ask ourselves, if the fire tear
                                          in the ethers from nuclear enhanced matter allows the release of
                                          moral fire from the inner core of the Earth?

                                          What does this statement mean? We do not see the Fire Agni Spirits
                                          but they kill us in our bone marrow none the less. Moral forces are
                                          layered into the nine layers of the inner earth. And for humans the
                                          most refined moral ethers circulate in the core of our bones. In a
                                          way it is like moving from the epidermal layers of the outer skin of
                                          a human to the very core of the heart.

                                          "The skin is your largest organ, weighing about four kilograms and
                                          covering about two square metres. It is your interface with the
                                          environment, protecting you against chemicals, bacteria and
                                          radiation, helping you to maintain a stable body temperature, and
                                          stopping you from losing fluid and vital body chemicals. Your skin
                                          contains nerve endings that allow you to feel objects. Nails, which
                                          are also part of your skin layer, enable you to prise things open.

                                          The skin is waterproof, strong and resilient, yet also flexible. It
                                          consists of two layers of cells. The outer layer is called the
                                          epidermis and is made up of epithelial cells. The epidermis is
                                          supported from below by the dermis, which is a network of elastic
                                          fibres, blood vessels, hair follicles and roots, nerve endings, and
                                          sweat and lymph glands. Underneath the dermis, there is another
                                          layer of cells known as the hypodermis, which contains loose
                                          connective tissue and fat.

                                          The epidermis contains many layers of closely packed cells. The
                                          cells nearest the skin's surface are flat and filled with a hard
                                          substance called keratin. The epidermis contains no blood vessels –
                                          these are all in the dermis and deeper layers."

                                          Bradford continues;

                                          Can you see patches, literally holes torn in the ethers, where the
                                          Agni ancient Saturn and Asuric forces crawl out of their entombment
                                          in the inner earth and search for the food which they need? The food
                                          which they need is the moral fire of the immortal forces of the
                                          human being. People look carefully at these things. What is "The
                                          Hunger"? Well it was a film but now we are dealing with prematurely
                                          released fire. We think that by taking the precautions we have taken
                                          in nuclear plants around the world that we are containing, juggling
                                          and defusing the ancient released, Agni Fire Spirits.

                                          Technology thinks it contains these things. But let us look at the
                                          moral bone marrow hunger of the future moral fire, prematurely
                                          opened in the ether holes of the planet. In the core of the occult
                                          Earth we compressed and contained the negative field of the higher I
                                          AM. Along the surface of the planet, where we live, we go about our
                                          daily lives and our incarnations and our cultural developments with
                                          a brushing and submerged insight into forces, powerful cosmic forces
                                          that presently are pressing up from the Core of the Earth into our
                                          laps.

                                          Now the accelerated field of holes, neatly placed nuclear power
                                          plants, can be compared, and pay attention here people, can be
                                          compared to how the Brotherhoods planted Churches at significant
                                          distances, and paths along the surface of the Earth. Some of those
                                          Churches have their foundations in ancient elemental and occult foci
                                          or geographic mysteries. Pagan Elemental wells, springs, lunar
                                          intersections, Greenwich longitude Time markers. Etheric language
                                          accents and etheric plant forces move along these occult markers.

                                          "Everyone uses Greenwich Time (pronounced "Grenich"). This is the
                                          time at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England. Greenwich is
                                          the place where the "zero" line of longitude runs (north-south).
                                          Why? Because it had to be somewhere and at the time it was defined,
                                          Britain was the Big Cheese.

                                          It is also called "International Time", or "Greenwich Mean Time."

                                          Interestingly, the rotation period of the Earth is not exactly 24
                                          hours. It is 23 hours 59 minutes and a few seconds. It is gradually
                                          slowing down due to the tidal influence of the Moon. As the Moon is
                                          forced farther away, it bleeds rotational energy from the Earth,
                                          slowing the Earth. It moves away a few centimeters a year.
                                          Eventually it will be lost (millions of years from now, or
                                          billions)."

                                          Bradford adds;

                                          But Steiner had posed a future relationship with the Moon that might
                                          grow complex bits of morality, human brain substance devoid of
                                          morality, combined with immoral techno, semi-ensouled machine
                                          beings. If the Moon drifts away we see a vast micro world, a nano
                                          technology wizardry in the layered intellect arising. If the Moon
                                          after drifting away comes closer, these fragments can arise to
                                          overthrow human beings. We are part of the process now in how we
                                          hold our own Calibrated development within certain margins or betray
                                          that margin irrationally because we do not have the courage, spirit
                                          or thinking capacity to see the interconnectedness of things. And to
                                          share Steiner's pre-emptive insights that these immoral techno
                                          beings between silcon stone and plant arise to insect layer and
                                          arose from our union with insect like techno achievements uprooted
                                          from moral forces is to follow an intense line of thinking that
                                          specialization in our sciences and Morality in our world, refuses to
                                          make.

                                          Now the Agni/Asuric forces we deal with in slow infection have to do
                                          with accelerated moral decay. If the human being can be hurled along
                                          paths, hurled meaning, it appears slow, but in relation to nuclear
                                          fission holes in the ether and releasing out of sync future Asuric
                                          elementals into the environment, look you, gradually morality begins
                                          to decay. No Geneva Convention will stand up against our inability
                                          to see the connection of things in the universe.

                                          In semi summary:

                                          Ancient Saturn, where anthro impaired thinkers have not explored, is
                                          where our fire and immortality were salvaged and linked, along with
                                          the destiny of Christ to slow moral development, Earth based
                                          development. But because of the very nature of the Christ entering
                                          the core of the Earth, there has come to us, even before we are
                                          ready to think through these things, a kind of accelerated Manichean
                                          moral issue, of slow or rapid addiction, moral decay, devouring
                                          ecstasy pills and participating in happy time sexual orgies,
                                          released free basing Porn, offered for all ages and all tastes. Now
                                          this challenge of the dark fires against the challenge of the white
                                          fires need not creep up on us in such a secret and infectious
                                          manner. We refuse to think and catch up to these things none the
                                          less.

                                          We could picture to ourselves how various technologies we release on
                                          the upper part of the globe are really part of the key codes that
                                          release deeper and deeper occult mysteries in layers of the inner
                                          Earth. But we must have real thinking to approach our countrymen
                                          with living educational insights. The closest thing to imagining all
                                          that I have said here, would be Sauron and his ancient Saturn
                                          development.

                                          "Sauron (which means "terrible" in Kvenian) is a supreme being,
                                          ainur, created by the thought of Iluvatar (i.e. "father of
                                          everything") from Flame Imperishable. He is one of the makers of
                                          Arda, a visible world, as well as a maiar. Sauron served Aule the
                                          Smith, the Lord of all the beings. He is the embodiment of Evil
                                          in "The Lord of the Rings".

                                          Bradford folds arms;

                                          It is to our horror and nightmare that we present wonderful nuclear
                                          containment, reams of techno gibberish and yet fail to imagine what
                                          truly makes up the Moral forces of our Earth. Our failure to
                                          understand the holes we are knocking in the occult Earth with our
                                          nuclear testing, and sprinkling of the ecosystem with Depleted
                                          Uranium etc, produces future fire energy without present or past
                                          fire insight.

                                          All of this as it relates to the Christ Being has been hidden from
                                          us. All of this, as it relates to locations of nuclear plants and
                                          new churches for the Asuric Beings to be thrust into cannisters and
                                          dumped in mountains like sacred Native American grounds and Yucca
                                          Mountain or tossed to leak and rust at the bottom of the seas,
                                          reveals a failure to understand the Beasts of Light that we must
                                          needs encounter as Picture and Imagination and as Science and
                                          Technology. Central to such understanding is the core of the
                                          Immortality of Humanity and the mystery of the Occult Core of the
                                          Nine Layered Earth.

                                          In Christic Imaginations you can go to any Altar of the Christian
                                          Community or to Waldorf Schools and see brilliant paintings,
                                          Imaginations of the Christ Being in all his Solar glory painted
                                          around the pictured Golgotha event and Michael and the Dragon
                                          pictures at the entrance ways to schools. Let us link the related
                                          fields of insight along these lines.

                                          Einstein, Oppenheimer and President Harry Truman, 33rd President of
                                          the United States, reveals the culmination of a cycle of a 12 year
                                          assault by Ahrimanic Beings to finally establish the release on
                                          Earth of lofty imprisoned Fire Beings. Incinerating Agni fire
                                          spirits were used directly on Human Beings to end WWII. But all we
                                          deal with are the symptoms not the underlying stream of moral
                                          events. Hitler was just a core, vortex personality along with Japan
                                          which focused and motivated all parties, all the warring parties to
                                          give birth to the nuclear beast. We fail to see that that was the
                                          intention of Ahrimanic and frustrating and pressing forces of WWII.
                                          We fail to see how the reverberations of the Christ Etheric Rising
                                          and the birth of Spiritual Science caused such mighty choatic
                                          ripples in the chaos of the moral sphere of Man. These ugly
                                          motivating inspirations moved along in conjunction with the Christ
                                          Event of 1933 and the depth of Initiation Science released by Dr.
                                          Steiner.

                                          In Christic terms there is one Gold twenty dollar piece minted in
                                          1933, the only and last one left after the batch were destroyed,
                                          that was worth 8 million dollars. Gold and the human I AM are in
                                          refined enhanced moral distribution over the whole Earth. Coupled
                                          with fine Iron forces that enter the blood through the meteor
                                          showers in August.

                                          Now science recently have revealed to stunned researchers how great
                                          patches of Sea are sinisterly cold and devoid of oxygen. Fish
                                          suddenly swim in these mighty migrating oxygenless cool regions and
                                          whole regions of flora, fauna and fish die of asphixiation. These
                                          migrating shadow patches of icy clustered waters are moving in our
                                          oceans like giant cancerous cells of life sucking, etheric depleting
                                          gloomy monsters.

                                          Gatherered around our cities, Asuric like Predator shadows, and if
                                          we need a picture, imagine the Predator movie with a being invisible
                                          to our sight, but in their elemental power, stalk the cities for
                                          prey and to feed on moral depravity. You ask about gun control and
                                          stopping crime and blah, and blah, and blah, and what little efforts
                                          to take hold of the whole picture of the moral sphere of humanity,
                                          does the tiny patch of whining do? Yes we shouldn't hurt each other
                                          now should we? We shouldn't have those bad, bad impulses now should
                                          we? But where in blithering hell do you think these impulses are
                                          coming from, if not man himself and being drawn out of him in a
                                          decayed light infected environment.

                                          We imagine that violence, and War and wonderful helium ideas of
                                          peace can arise when we are unaware of how profoundly interconnected
                                          and potent are the forces that we are not dealing with. Why? Because
                                          the specialization of departments of thinking at our universities
                                          have severed the interconnectedness of reality that RAchel Carson
                                          grasped.

                                          The Church fails us in catching up with Imagination. "Lord of the
                                          Rings" is quickly buried a Pop culture tweeks, clubs and crackpots
                                          but the Imagination is not applied, the fruit of the writing and the
                                          film is harvesting the pictures that overlay our moral development
                                          and our sciences. Human beings just scamper away from considering
                                          the reality of our current Abu Ghraib and over 200 world wide
                                          Torture chambers, torture Photo Ops and smiling gawking over
                                          tortured and murdered humans. This little argument, against the
                                          Geneva Convention that the United States has raised is just the tip
                                          of a massive iceberg on which we are riding. Dare you imagine what
                                          is under our feet and how the whole layered strata of Earth are
                                          truly based on Occult nucleus of how the bones of man are made and
                                          the central core of the force of the I Am?

                                          So have we ripped holes in the Ether strata to let these beings out
                                          and is our technology from GPS and microwave satellites and our
                                          positioning of nuclear reactors and other deadly labs linked
                                          together with our military satellite operations creating a kind of
                                          projection in space of inner earth occult realities?

                                          To understand the long forgotten notion of "The China Syndrome" we
                                          must be reminded that melting, fizzling, Fire Spirit infected
                                          immoral matter could, through a nuclear meltdown, melt all the way
                                          through from one point on the Earth, all the way through the Earth
                                          and down to the otherside of the Earth in was is termed Meltdown or
                                          the China Syndrome. It was called "The China Syndrome" but what type
                                          of cluster of embryonic monsters would arise if such melting into
                                          the core of the Earth would ever occur?

                                          Kids in the back of the classroom can now go to recess now, while
                                          the rest of us ponder the predicatment and corner we have painted
                                          ourselves into.
                                        • Jan
                                          Bradford wrote, among other valuable insights, So have we ripped holes in the Ether strata to let these beings out and is our technology from GPS and
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 17, 2004
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                                            Bradford wrote, among other valuable insights,

                                            "So have we ripped holes in the Ether strata to let these beings out
                                            and is our technology from GPS and microwave satellites and our
                                            positioning of nuclear reactors and other deadly labs linked
                                            together with our military satellite operations creating a kind of
                                            projection in space of inner earth occult realities?"



                                            From the back of the class......

                                            I believe that what is written above is truly the case. Those among us who
                                            are seasoned anthros are used to ingesting and digesting such strong meat,
                                            and develop the inner stomach-solvent digestive juices necessary. So it is
                                            good to present such difficult and heart-rending material. Steiner pointed
                                            out that the Book of Revelation of John the Divine is the Manichean Manual
                                            for understanding evil and also that evil is in its infancy. We cannot
                                            afford to be cowed or fazed by these and even greater evils to come, the
                                            revealing of which is certain as Christ casts ever more light upon darkened
                                            places and the morth-brood come out of the shadows into our consciousness,
                                            confident, over confident perhaps, of our paralysis and fear induced mental
                                            captivity. For the Adversaries have a habit of laughing too soon.....

                                            Those less familiar with anthroposophy and I know there are such on this
                                            list, might ask what to do with such knowledge that they may not be
                                            discouraged by the sheer scale of the onslaught and overcome? The first
                                            thing of course is to acknowledge what Steiner often told, that knowing is
                                            the first protection and the greatest hindrance to the adversaries, so study
                                            and honest striving for insight is essential. The first and greatest
                                            Ahrimanic deception is achieved by tying us to dead weights of heredity,
                                            atoms and placing us in a mechanistic universe with the belief that we are
                                            simply naked apes and so devoid of any spiritual power to change the
                                            situation in which we find ourselves. Its all too big and we are all too
                                            small and puny goes the constant refrain. Wrong again. Ahriman covets and
                                            fears what is laid down by the Gods in the human being. His victory lies in
                                            keeping us all enchanted as frogs rather than princes and princesses, serfs
                                            and wage slaves rather than Royal Children of the Father, younger Brothers
                                            and Sisters of the Christ. What appears so frail and minute in the
                                            Ahrimanically presented schema - human spiritual potential - is actually
                                            great, creative and powerful. The human heart is the true magnifying agent.
                                            Our very anger, when righteously aroused on our brother's behalf, becomes
                                            the power of blessing in later life.

                                            While it is true that the forces of evil, presently swarming through the
                                            moth-holes in our etheric moral atmosphere, embodied in nano technology and
                                            manipulated genome, clothed in lie and the dark fairy tale of modern
                                            science, are very great and growing greater, it is also true that a mustard
                                            seed is, or appears, very small. And yet is mighty. As is a halfling-hobbit.
                                            The fulcrum here is the power of what appears tiniest, seemingly less
                                            significant, but is actually spiritually colossal. The power of turning
                                            inside out. Moon magnification of evil is fore-cast already by Ahriman in
                                            the electro magnetic nexus of manipulated news, spider-spun and enwebbing
                                            the earth in a counter-butterfly cocoon, to bring forth only the still-born
                                            and aborted. The lie is daily affirmed by media such as the BBC or British
                                            Brainwashing Corporation and all its outlets around the world, among many
                                            others, designed specifically to terrorize and divide. The broadcasting of
                                            the 1938 'War of the Worlds' as a news item was only partly a deliberately
                                            connived Tavistock style experiment in mass mind manipulation and crowd
                                            control. It was also farming, harvesting of fear, food for beings who
                                            continue to factory farm and milk us like cows. As long as we let them.
                                            (It is worth while to ask who actually authors these daily terror 'news'
                                            reports. We know the names of the anchormen and women. News read by 'so
                                            and so' written by Anon.)
                                            Events are moon-magnified; we see elongated shadows, not the shriveled
                                            and desiccated beings who cast them.
                                            We can take up our true powers, friends, in the tiniest of ways, here and
                                            now, in everyday life. So we help to Christen the world around us. Because
                                            we are the new Priesthood. It is vital that we take up this work.

                                            Churches were sited not only upon holy, healing wells and caverns of
                                            ancient initiation but also deliberately built upon vortex sites of evil
                                            earth energies, often of a very baleful, raw kind and consciously
                                            transformed within the community of the church, often by means of ceremony
                                            and chanting, re-enchanting into raised and useful form what was seeping
                                            from darker regions of the earth. A form of search and transform - a
                                            Manichean journey into the darkest places secure in the magical power of
                                            Christ-light. This is no longer understood and it is the task of those who
                                            can to detect and act in an appropriate way upon such energies, as there are
                                            ever more sources. There is much more to say on this, perhaps on future
                                            occasions. Soloman, for instance, set four thousand to sing praises during
                                            the building of the Temple, that beacon for the incarnating human, that it
                                            might have a sound and re-sounding foundation. Because true praise, real
                                            praise knowingly in-toned is the surest means of uplifting and re creating
                                            fallen or generally suspect etheric energies. But it is sound science. It
                                            requires real knowledge.
                                            Brad's revealing of various new inroads into humanity by the darkest and
                                            most powerful entities and putting them into context is one such knowing
                                            science. This calibrates them, relates them via spiritual insight to the
                                            true measure of Man and sets them within the context of evolution potentials
                                            and dangers and gives them, and us, true size and spiritual ratio. The true
                                            central point of measure must always be Christ.

                                            The worst thing is to fear. Moment by moment, in daily life we may be
                                            priest/priestess and lift our immediate world and also greater world affairs
                                            right from under the nose of the Adversary by consciously sanctifying each
                                            act, directing our thought spirit-ward. No need to fear surveillance camera
                                            or biometric chip. They can only monitor physical movements and brain bound
                                            thinking. Sense free thinking is inaccessible to them.
                                            Will depleted uranium be deadly in 900 years? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It
                                            may well depend upon what spiritual capacities we, even you and I friends,
                                            manage to develop. There may be those on earth in times to come who can heal
                                            and absorb harmful radiation. Mary Fullerson, who was healed from cancer by
                                            a truly life changing meeting with the Etheric Christ has said that
                                            'Radiance overcomes radiation.' And for those who did not read it in earlier
                                            posts, here she is again.

                                            Quote from 'The Form of the Fourth' by Mary Fullerson

                                            "We go deeper now. The skin is the outermost boundary of tangible, physical
                                            form; bone marrow is the opposite pole of inmost being. When the one is
                                            touched, the other reached by conscious Fire, they are made impervious and
                                            self restoring. When we relate properly to others in our thoughts and our
                                            feelings, our skin is changed. Marrow is quickened when we relate properly
                                            to Christ. This is the axis of surrender, the polarization of the two great
                                            Laws of Love as they affect physical tissue.
                                            radiation fall out is the negative energy resulting from man's abortive
                                            and self motivated use of cosmic powers. It can be changed to Light. Each
                                            particle can be transformed, beginning in the body of each Son. There the
                                            charge of negative can meet the positive of true dedication in an actual
                                            alchemy of radiation. It then ceases to damage and becomes an energizing
                                            factor to protect and emanate as transforming Light. As the transforming
                                            Blood is felt to circulate through arteries and veins when there is true
                                            identification in the Eucharistic rite, awareness of the Fire of
                                            Transfiguration makes it possible to feel the Light Body circulating through
                                            the marrow. This is Radiance. Radiance overcomes radiation. It will do
                                            this literally. Conscious Fire, Element of the invincible, posited in bone
                                            and marrow, agrees in essence with the Form of the Overcomer and attracts it
                                            there. Being of the same substance with the Light of etheric Presence,
                                            there is a magnetic drawing together and in the circle of Light which the
                                            two bodies form, radiation of lower level or degree is powerless. This is
                                            the Law of superior energy which man will come to know and live by in New
                                            Day." end quote.


                                            The word and means of power is available to us all. It is gentleness. The
                                            most important thing is to be kind. To whatsoever we are kind we are kin,
                                            kindred; we become relations, but more than ordinary blood relations, -
                                            brought into the purified blood relation of human-kind - the sweet
                                            measureless measure of love, pressed down and overflowing.
                                            Jan
                                          • Mark Willan
                                            Bon jour Je vous rèpons hors liste, car je viens tout juste de rentrer d un voyage en outre-Manche. Le sujet que vous abordez est loin d être simple, et les
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 17, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Bon jour

                                              Je vous rèpons hors liste, car je viens tout juste de rentrer d'un
                                              voyage en outre-Manche.

                                              Le sujet que vous abordez est loin d'être simple, et les techniques qui
                                              ont été esquissées ne tiennent pas la route, car les ASURAS sont les
                                              forces Anti-Christiques par -excellence. (Voir les 2 cycles par Steiner
                                              sur l'Apocalyopse).

                                              Dans mon passé j'ai eu occasion d,avoir un co0ntact personnel avec les
                                              Asurtas, et si j'en suis sorti, ce n'est pas grâce ni aux forces du
                                              Christ étherique, ni la médiation de4 la Rose -Croix, mais j'ai été
                                              obligé de subir, tout simplkement, le temps de la ren contre, car je
                                              n'avais pas encore développé mes propres foces individuelles
                                              suffisamment pour pouvoir ne pas avoit été tout simplement dépassé.

                                              Après-coup, ou8i, en effet le Christ est interveu comme une baume pour
                                              guréiri le mal causé, mais malgé de longues dicussions personnel;les
                                              avec Gérard Klockenbring (J'étais à l'époquie membre du bureau de la
                                              Communauté de Chrétiens à Paris), cela n'a pas quand même pu enlever
                                              tous les effets néfatses, que je dois encore subir à une distance de
                                              quelquies 10 ans.

                                              Si vous souhaitez m,en parler de vive voix, vous pouvez me contacter
                                              aux c o-ordonnées ci-dessous, mais sachez que ce n'est pas un argument
                                              que J'aborde bien volontiers, car apres déjà plus de 20 ans de travail
                                              personnel quotidien sans cesse sur les 5 exercices, méditations
                                              Steineriennes etc. je n'ai pas été personnellement capable de réussir
                                              ma seule rencontre avec ces entités. Dans ces conditiosn j'avoue que
                                              bien peu d'hommes disposent de nos jours la force intérieure requise,
                                              mêem pôur considérer ces adversaires.

                                              Excusez mes erreurs de frappe, mais je réponds vite, caqr tardivement.

                                              J'espère quand même que cela popurra vous être utile.

                                              Bon courage!



                                              Mark WILLAN

                                              3 place des Cines
                                              06560 Valbonne Sophia Antipolis
                                              France
                                              Tel : +33 4 9296 0919
                                              Fax : +33 4 9296 9004
                                              Mob : +33 6 7320 4006

                                              mwillan@...
                                              translate@...
                                              mark.willan@...
                                              contact@...

                                              On 08 Aug, 2004, at 04:35 pm, muriel durand-bourlier wrote:

                                              > Rudolf Steiner speaks about Asuras  : a third stream of spirits of
                                              > opposition (with Lucifer and Ahriman), which are retarded Archai who
                                              > work to destroy the human "I", the Ego itself. The Asuras might be
                                              > agents of the actual Antichrist, the Sun-Demon, known to occultism as
                                              > "Sorat" (or "Sorath"). To fight against forces of Lucifer and Ahriman,
                                              > we need appeal to Christ. But to fight against Asuras, someone told me
                                              > Christ energies aren't effective, Asuras are more powerful. Does
                                              > someone know which divine entity (entities ?) is able to help to fight
                                              > against Asuras ?
                                              > At present, I haven't yet found in Rudolf Steiner texts, references on
                                              > the energy or entity who can help, who is as or more powerful as/than
                                              > Asuras.
                                              > I've thought of Bouddha or of other hindou gods but I haven't found
                                              > any confirmation of that. It may be other god(s) or energy.
                                              >  
                                              > Does someone have ideas and indicate in which references I can read
                                              > about ?
                                              > Thank you for your help.
                                              >  
                                              > Muriel.
                                              >  
                                              > PS 1 : The faster you can answer, the best it is for me.
                                              > PS 2 : Excuse my English errors, I'm French and haven't a perfect
                                              > knowledge of English language.
                                              >
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                                            • holderlin66
                                              http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2004-08-17-new-saturn- moons_x.htm The Cassini spacecraft has spotted two previously unknown and small moons orbiting
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 17, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2004-08-17-new-saturn-
                                                moons_x.htm

                                                "The Cassini spacecraft has spotted two previously unknown and small
                                                moons orbiting Saturn in an unexpected location.The satellites are
                                                tiny, about 2 miles (3 kilometers) and 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) in
                                                diameter. They orbit within 131,000 miles (211,000 kilometers) of
                                                the planet's center.

                                                Tiny, tiny S/2004 is marked by a box in this Cassini image.
                                                Image courtesy NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute.

                                                The discoveries bring the total of Saturn's known moons to 33.
                                                Number 31 was discovered last year with a ground-based telescope."
                                              • Danny F.
                                                ... There shouldn t be more - right Bradford? :) That which reminds us of the Reversal to (the) Support: Outpoured Word - Subtantially - Itself-Symphony That
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Aug 18, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  > The discoveries bring the total of Saturn's known moons to 33.
                                                  > Number 31 was discovered last year with a ground-based telescope."

                                                  There shouldn't be more - right Bradford? :)

                                                  That which reminds us of the Reversal to (the) Support:
                                                  Outpoured Word - Subtantially - Itself-Symphony
                                                  That became MIDDLE-Man Spine Bones Fragments Frozen Sea!

                                                  But Back to our handbook - in the OPTIC of what Jan said:
                                                  "While it is true that the forces of evil, presently swarming
                                                  through the
                                                  moth-holes in our etheric moral atmosphere, embodied in nano
                                                  technology and
                                                  manipulated genome, clothed in lie and the dark fairy tale of modern
                                                  science, are very great and growing greater, it is also true that a
                                                  mustard
                                                  seed is, or appears, very small. And yet is mighty. As is a halfling-
                                                  hobbit.
                                                  The fulcrum here is the power of what appears tiniest, seemingly less
                                                  significant, but is actually spiritually colossal. The power of
                                                  turning
                                                  inside out. Moon magnification of evil is fore-cast already by
                                                  Ahriman in
                                                  the electro magnetic nexus of manipulated news, spider-spun and
                                                  enwebbing
                                                  the earth in a counter-butterfly cocoon, to bring forth only the
                                                  still-born
                                                  and aborted."
                                                  "Events are moon-magnified; we see elongated shadows, not the
                                                  shriveled
                                                  and desiccated beings who cast them.
                                                  We can take up our true powers, friends, in the tiniest of ways, here
                                                  and
                                                  now, in everyday life. So we help to Christen the world around us.
                                                  Because
                                                  we are the new Priesthood. It is vital that we take up this work."

                                                  /

                                                  "When you see a giant, the first thing to do is to determine the
                                                  position of the sun–and check to see if it's not actually the shadow
                                                  of a pygmy."

                                                  "In the future world everything is as in the previous world–and yet
                                                  everything is completely different. The future world is rational
                                                  chaos–the chaos which penetrated itself and which is both inside and
                                                  outside itself: Chaos2 or infinite. The genuine fairy tale must
                                                  simultaneously be a prophetic representation, an idealistic
                                                  representation, and an absolutely determined representation. The
                                                  genuine creator of fairy tales is a seer of the future."

                                                  "Humanity is one of the planet's senses. The human eye is the
                                                  planet's eye raised to look at the heavens. The human nerve is the
                                                  means of connecting the planet to the higher world."

                                                  "We are cosmometers."

                                                  "Imagination is the miraculous sense which can replace all other
                                                  senses and which is already so much under our control. While the
                                                  external senses appear to be wholly subject to mechanical laws,
                                                  imagination is bound neither to the present nor to contact with
                                                  external stimuli."

                                                  –Novalis

                                                  Jan again:

                                                  "chanting, re-enchanting into raised and useful form what was seeping
                                                  from darker regions of the earth. A form of search and transform - a
                                                  Manichean journey into the darkest places secure in the magical power
                                                  of
                                                  Christ-light. This is no longer understood and it is the task of
                                                  those who
                                                  can to detect and act in an appropriate way upon such energies, as
                                                  there are
                                                  ever more sources. There is much more to say on this, perhaps on
                                                  future
                                                  occasions."

                                                  And Bradford, Friends;

                                                  "Can you see patches, literally holes torn in the ethers, where the
                                                  Agni ancient Saturn and Asuric forces crawl out of their entombment
                                                  in the inner earth and search for the food which they need? The food
                                                  which they need is the moral fire of the immortal forces of the
                                                  human being."...


                                                  Danny




                                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                                                  <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                                                  > http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2004-08-17-new-saturn-
                                                  > moons_x.htm
                                                  >
                                                  > "The Cassini spacecraft has spotted two previously unknown and
                                                  small
                                                  > moons orbiting Saturn in an unexpected location.The satellites are
                                                  > tiny, about 2 miles (3 kilometers) and 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) in
                                                  > diameter. They orbit within 131,000 miles (211,000 kilometers) of
                                                  > the planet's center.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tiny, tiny S/2004 is marked by a box in this Cassini image.
                                                  > Image courtesy NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute.
                                                  >
                                                  > The discoveries bring the total of Saturn's known moons to 33.
                                                  > Number 31 was discovered last year with a ground-based telescope."
                                                • Danny F.
                                                  In whom the Gods, knowers of Brahman, acknowledge Brahman as the Supreme--he who knows the Gods face to face is truly a Knower, a Vehicle of Brahman Atharva
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Aug 18, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    In whom the Gods, knowers of Brahman, acknowledge Brahman as the
                                                    Supreme--he who knows the Gods face to face is truly a Knower, a
                                                    Vehicle
                                                    of Brahman

                                                    Atharva Veda X, 7, 24


                                                    Great are the Gods who were born from Nonbeing, yet men aver this
                                                    Nonbeing
                                                    to be the single limb of the Support, the great Beyond.

                                                    Atharva Veda X, 7, 25


                                                    The limb in which the Support, when generating, evolved the Ancient
                                                    One--who knows this limb knows too by that same knowledge the Ancient
                                                    One.

                                                    Atharva Veda X, 7, 26


                                                    It was from his limb that the thirty-three Gods distributed portions
                                                    among themselves. Thus in truth only knowers of Brahman are also
                                                    knowers
                                                    of the thirty-three Gods.

                                                    Atharva Veda X, 7, 27


                                                    Men recognize the Golden Embryo as the unutterable, the Supreme. Yet
                                                    it
                                                    was the Support who in the beginning poured forth upon the world that
                                                    stream of gold.

                                                    Atharva Veda X, 7, 28


                                                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                                                    <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                                                    > http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2004-08-17-new-saturn-
                                                    > moons_x.htm
                                                    >
                                                    > "The Cassini spacecraft has spotted two previously unknown and
                                                    small
                                                    > moons orbiting Saturn in an unexpected location.The satellites are
                                                    > tiny, about 2 miles (3 kilometers) and 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) in
                                                    > diameter. They orbit within 131,000 miles (211,000 kilometers) of
                                                    > the planet's center.
                                                    >
                                                    > Tiny, tiny S/2004 is marked by a box in this Cassini image.
                                                    > Image courtesy NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute.
                                                    >
                                                    > The discoveries bring the total of Saturn's known moons to 33.
                                                    > Number 31 was discovered last year with a ground-based telescope."
                                                  • holderlin66
                                                    Jan wrote: Churches were sited not only upon holy, healing wells and caverns of ancient initiation but also deliberately built upon vortex sites of evil earth
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Aug 21, 2004
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Jan wrote:

                                                      "Churches were sited not only upon holy, healing wells and caverns of
                                                      ancient initiation but also deliberately built upon vortex sites of
                                                      evil earth energies, often of a very baleful, raw kind and
                                                      consciously transformed within the community of the church, often by
                                                      means of ceremony and chanting, re-enchanting into raised and useful
                                                      form what was seeping from darker regions of the earth. A form of
                                                      search and transform - a Manichean journey into the darkest places
                                                      secure in the magical power of Christ-light. This is no longer
                                                      understood and it is the task of those who can to detect and act in
                                                      an appropriate way upon such energies, as there are ever more
                                                      sources. There is much more to say on this, perhaps on future
                                                      occasions. Soloman, for instance, set four thousand to sing praises
                                                      during the building of the Temple, that beacon for the incarnating
                                                      human, that it might have a sound and re-sounding foundation.
                                                      Because true praise, real praise knowingly in-toned is the surest
                                                      means of uplifting and re creating fallen or generally suspect
                                                      etheric energies. But it is sound science. It requires real
                                                      knowledge."

                                                      Bradford comments;

                                                      Streams of vowels and consonants on the breath stream, warmed from
                                                      the hearts of human beings, both from Gregorian chants and Tibetan
                                                      sancturies and united with Eurythmy, have set the Planets and the
                                                      Constellations, the Zodiac, back into the flow of the elemental
                                                      community we live in.

                                                      Before I go off on my Word and Speech tangent, you might want to
                                                      really grasp some of the work that is understood from such a science
                                                      of Tone, Word, Chant...before you discount it with your OH SO
                                                      rational intellect.

                                                      http://www.aniwilliams.com/geometry_music_healing.htm

                                                      ""For 14 years he (Jenny) conducted experiments animating inert
                                                      powders, pastes, and liquids into life-like, flowing forms, which
                                                      mirrored patterns found throughout nature, art and architecture.
                                                      What's more, all of these patterns were created using simple sine
                                                      wave vibrations (pure tones) within the audible range. So what you
                                                      see is a physical representation of vibration, or how sound
                                                      manifests into form through the medium of various materials."

                                                      The pioneering research of Fabion Mamon in the 1970's found that
                                                      when they sounded a specific tuning fork tone onto a cancer cell,
                                                      that cell would dissolve. Even allopathic medicine has adopted this
                                                      same principle in new, non-invasive forms of surgery. Scientific
                                                      American magazine reported one example of an effective method for
                                                      removing kidney stones by identifying the frequency of the stone,
                                                      and projecting the `reversed' frequency to dissolve it.

                                                      This interrelationship of sound and matter is at the core of an
                                                      exciting new wave of science, which is based on timeless principles
                                                      well known to all ancient and indigenous cultures. Billy Yellow, a
                                                      Navajo medicine man summed it all up with this wisdom: "Our task is
                                                      to chant the world, chant the beauty. The world is a reflection of
                                                      our chanting." How are we each using sound to affect our state of
                                                      being, the health of the earth and our children? "

                                                      Bradford adds;

                                                      I should be brief because of the attention span deficit we all
                                                      carry, such rich studies as we have recently uncovered tend to lull
                                                      the reader to sleep, as if Anthroposophy was some sweet fairy tale.
                                                      It isn't. At least on the issue of frogs and Atlantean etheric
                                                      systems and Prince and Princesses and kissing frogs, awakening out
                                                      of the slumber of Post Atlantean, pre Egohood to Prince and Princess
                                                      participants with the Queen Sophia and her lover Christ, we
                                                      apparently are still old Toadies. (TAO/TAOTL and TOADDD or humid
                                                      Earth and pond croaking, singing even)

                                                      Vowels and Consonants and music itself is so rich and Eurythmy such
                                                      an incredible study that I shall spare you some of the details of
                                                      it. Language and the larynx region is the center out of which the
                                                      New Elemental, Poetic, Scientific and Cultural miracles from the
                                                      side of humanity will arise. Elemental forces in fire, air, water
                                                      and Earth are awaiting the stream of rejuvenation from out of the
                                                      human heart. Traveling from Finland to Hawaii and understanding how
                                                      either consonants or vowels predominate in specific language and how
                                                      water and feeling in rhythm and chanting move the Languge all the
                                                      way to the ancient Tibetan Science of chanting, well it is a study
                                                      for those who really are thrilled by the Word. Even if it is the dry
                                                      word of this page and the dead concepts full of heart that we are
                                                      discussing. Lovers of the Word awake when they hear Spirit behind
                                                      Language.

                                                      The most incredible soul stirring example I can offer you, aside
                                                      from the astonishing details where location, geogrpahy, soul and
                                                      Word weave and rejuvenated depleted environmental and elemental life
                                                      gasps as it nourishes itself from Warmed Fire toned, Living Words..
                                                      is this example and it is rather stunning.

                                                      http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/transcripts/2004/aug/040812.mccarthy.
                                                      html

                                                      "All Things Considered: August 12, 2004

                                                      Palestinians Embrace Musical Allegory

                                                      From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

                                                      "A Palestinian musical is playing to packed houses in a West Bank
                                                      theater in Ramallah. It's based on a story by the late Palestinian
                                                      novelist Ghassan Kanafani titled "The Little Lantern." It's the
                                                      story of a princess who knocks down a wall to bring sunlight into
                                                      her kingdom. NPR's Julie McCarthy reports the musical is rousing
                                                      audiences with his parallels to the present-day Palestinian
                                                      situation.

                                                      JULIE McCARTHY reporting:

                                                      The opening night of (foreign language spoken), or "The Lanterns,"
                                                      brought the house down.

                                                      McCARTHY: The story about one girl's determination was itself a work
                                                      that defied the odds. Palestinian composer and producer Suhail
                                                      Khoury said the Israeli occupation had complicated auditions,
                                                      training and rehearsals, and stretched production over two years.
                                                      The German conductor confessed he persuaded only a fraction of his
                                                      orchestra to travel to the West Bank for the show. The day before
                                                      the play opened, the new Japanese-funded Cultural Center flooded,
                                                      destroying the director's pencil-scrawled script.

                                                      It was inspired by the late Palestinian writer Ghassan Kanafani. The
                                                      author of novels, short stories and articles about the lives of
                                                      Palestinians in exile, Kanafani wrote the story, original
                                                      titled "The Little Lantern," for his niece. She died beside him in a
                                                      car bombing in Lebanon in 1972. The musical version, renamed "The
                                                      Lanterns," features a cast made up exclusively of children. Some 60
                                                      of them in luminescent costumes sing and dance non-stop for just
                                                      over an hour.

                                                      McCARTHY: As the curtain rises, the wise king has died, leaving a
                                                      will for his daughter that says for the kingdom to remain peaceful,
                                                      she must bring sunlight into the castle. So the princess climbs a
                                                      mountain to reach the sun to carry it back. When her scheme fails,
                                                      she retreats to her room in distress. A note appears under the door
                                                      one day. `How will you find the sun,' it asks, `if you lock yourself
                                                      away?'

                                                      Later, an old man bearing a lantern appears at the castle gate,
                                                      declaring he has the answer. But the guards turn him away. The
                                                      princess learns of the old man and sets out to find him by ordering
                                                      everyone who carries a lantern to come to the castle. So many people
                                                      converge on the castle. To make room, they knock down the walls. And
                                                      suddenly the sunlight fills the kingdom."

                                                      Bradford concludes;

                                                      The sunlight and the man with the lantern... and who remembers in
                                                      their soul the fairy tale of "The Green Snake and Beautiful Lily"?
                                                      Now it is not sentimentality that induces me to show how wonderful
                                                      this artistic event was for bombed out Palastine, just read the
                                                      article. But rather that it is the intellectual soul negation of the
                                                      power of Word, Art, music even down to its healing reality in the
                                                      etheric body as well, with what Jan has brought up, the healing of
                                                      regions of enchanted and etheric earth have been lost, even if we
                                                      have before us the new science of the Word. Most Anthro's retreat
                                                      from investigating what this new force of the word can become.

                                                      Most Anthros or students of Spiritual Science cannot make the
                                                      connection between the flowy, wafty light headed dancers who claim
                                                      to be Eurythmists and the solid foundation out of which Sound and
                                                      the Word has been renewed to its highest level, using the Christ
                                                      Event as the foundation of the New Word. Most people haven't had the
                                                      opportunity or the training to see the Science of the Word that
                                                      Eurythmy stuidies..Therefore Eurythmy is somewhat discounted as a
                                                      stirring art form. It should not be discounted and I have testimony
                                                      from elemental beings who are starving for such Etheric renewal as
                                                      proof.
                                                    • joksu57
                                                      Hello all! I don t know, if this following incident has any connections to Asuras, but I came to my mind after reading Mark s post. A friend told me some time
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                                        Hello all!

                                                        I don't know, if this following incident has any connections to
                                                        Asuras, but I came to my mind after reading Mark's post. A friend
                                                        told me some time ago about his experiencies, when he was "under
                                                        attack" by some (perhaps ahrimanic, he didn't specify) beings. I
                                                        don't want to be too spesific about the circumstances, so I just tell
                                                        some "main points".

                                                        According to my friend these "invading beings" tried to get inside
                                                        him and his consiousness and when some of them succeeded, they could
                                                        be felt also as some sort of vibrations in his etheric vehicle. He
                                                        said that they could be felt almost as "someone is crawling under the
                                                        skin", quite an unpleasant experience. This "attack" has been going
                                                        on many hours and my friend was resisting it with strong
                                                        consentration. He was not afraid, but getting tired and his "tactics"
                                                        was not particularly succesful.

                                                        Then he remembered the advices of Christ and stopped resisting these
                                                        beings. Instead he started blessing them, praying for them, "inviting
                                                        them" in the spirit of "Love thy enemy"; trying to teach to them the
                                                        ethics of Christ. The effect was astonishing. There was only some
                                                        spesific "route" along which these entities could enter, and it was
                                                        the same thing conserning the exit. Suddenly these beings were so
                                                        eager to leave that there was some sort of "jam", when they could not
                                                        leave as soon as they wished (this amused my friend). Also one of
                                                        these "invaders" experienced some sort of conversion and adviced the
                                                        others to "leave my friend alone".

                                                        I think that this was a display of some sort of manichean magic, but
                                                        if one is afraid, it may be difficult to apply it effectively.

                                                        Warm Regards
                                                        Joksu
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